Starting from scratch-best new alarm system

marge2006

Hi I m thinking of improving my home security. House is wired for alarm with contacts or vibration sensors on all windows/ doors. Am looking for advice on the best new system to get. Ideally with remote monitoring that cannot be interfered with by mobile phone blockers or cutting telephone wires. Any advice re specifics / cost please per window/ system to get it installed/ monitored.

kub

marge2006 wrote: »

Hi I m thinking of improving my home security. House is wired for alarm with contacts or vibration sensors on all windows/ doors. Am looking for advice on the best new system to get. Ideally with remote monitoring that cannot be interfered with by mobile phone blockers or cutting telephone wires. Any advice re specifics / cost please per window/ system to get it installed/ monitored.

I note above you mentioned contacts or vibration detectors, it is not one or the other but both that will give you proper coverage.
I would suggest all external windows and doors be fitted properly with perimeter protection as mentioned previously. I would also recommend a few internal passive infrared detectors in common areas such as hallways and landings etc.
HKC, an Irish manufacturer has recently launched a polling type GSM module which pings a server every so often and should that ping not be received at the other end you will be notified.
We do not give out prices here, my advice to you would be to go to the PSA website and look up at least 3 installers in your own area. Do not just accept a verbal quote as this might cause disagreements afterwards. Every installer has to now provide you with a system design proposal whereby every devices function and location is mentioned.

marge2006

Kubrick. Thank you for the reply. I will definitely go to the PSA website. Is the HKC with polling system the best around ? Say you have the alarm off during the day when you are home does that mean it could go off or is it pinging all the time in the background whether set or not ?? How much do you pay approximately for the annual surveillance I don't want to go down this route unless I can afford it. If the pinging isnot detected say during a burglary does someone ring the gardai ? As I said some windows have vibration sensors others contacts. Is it possible to add extra contacts/ sensors to each window with the existing wiring ? Would it mean extra wiring? I already have a PIR in the hall and in a conservatory. I presume these would not need to be changed. Would existing door contacts be ok? I don't want to be charged for changing stuff if its ok to use existing.

kub

Sorry I might have caused some confusion, you mentioned in the OP that you wanted a system that could not be blocked or phone line cut. Well that is where the HKC type polling GSM unit comes in, it is in the control panel and is connected to whatever strongest mobile network is in your area. It uses the Data side of this coverage to relay it's signals to which ever way you wish to monitor the system. But it also pings a server every few minutes to ensure the unit is online and failing this you will be notified of a problem. This happens whether the system is on or not.
With regard to whatever devices you currently have, usually depending on how many sensors/ contacts there is on a single zone extra wiring may or may not be necessary. However if you choose to go the HKC route then wireless devices can also be employed.

Seq uence

Are you talking about monitoring with polling ? If so this is not limited to HKC, this type of monitoring is availabe on most new systems through some monitoring stations.
For monitoring through your phone apps I would advise you shop around. There are a number of different systems that allow monitoring over IP direct to your phone which is free. HKC are the only ones I know that charge for this service as far as I am aware.

altor

Seq uence wrote: »

HKC are the only ones I know that charge for this service as far as I am aware.

Which system provides GPRS for free?

Seq uence

I fear you have misinterpeted what I said. What I was stating was there are some different systems that allow monitoring over IP direct to your phone which is free. Am I correct in thinking that HKCs systems do not yet have the ability to connect through IP and therefore rely on GPRS for a connection to their servers? It that why they are the only ones where you have to pay their annual subscription to use their app?

altor

Seq uence wrote: »

I fear you have misinterpeted what I said. What I was stating was there are some different systems that allow monitoring over IP direct to your phone which is free. Am I correct in thinking that HKCs systems do not yet have the ability to connect through IP and therefore rely on GPRS for a connection to their servers? It that why they are the only ones where you have to pay their annual subscription to use their app?

No I dont think I have. There is a lot more to what an end user is being charged for in relation to HKC compared to a free service of notifications to your phone.

My question was which system provides GPRS for free, if any?
Would you use GPRS as a back up to an IP connection?

When you say free monitoring direct to your phone, does the free version give you an indication of if the systems has stopped communicating to allow push notifications to your phone in the event of an alarm activation? e.g. if your IP is down.

If so which systems are you using that are allowing you to do this on IP?

HKC can be connected through IP with the wifi card or lan card at a customers premises, not just through GPRS. There is a subscription payable every month for this service.
It can also be connected to using the GSM-SC if you want to use GPRS as a back up or as a single path. I would recommend using IP plus the GPRS.
The subscription is to cover costs of the server being maintained plus hosted.
If you use a GSM-SC to connect to the server then no extra fee is charged for using the world sim provided plus you also have the ability to receive and control the system by text commands. If you are out of 3G coverage then text notification will be sent also. The system is also polled so if there is a total path failure you get notified.

Seq uence

I am afraid I am a little perplexed by your response here. I am talking about a particular product and service but you try to compare it to something different. If we could compare and discuss this like with like that would be less confusing .
I was referring to IP self monitoring as a standalone service. With many panels this is a service that is available where there is no ongoing service charges and no charge for apps which you download. If I or a customer wish to use GSM GPRS or some other form of back up communications path then yes there may or may not be additional costs. That would depend on the customers individual agreements with their service providers. However it would still be possible to set this up in many ways that would not involve entering into a recurring subscription charge. If those additional paths are not required on a HKC system is the IP service then free?
I can not speak for all panels here but I know with Risco Cloud you can set up alerts to notify you if your panel loses connection to the cloud server. The Risco Cloud service itself is on the same server as many large English banking institutions so they are very confident downtime will never be a problem. Not sure where HKCs cloud is hosted are you?
I'm afraid your argument that a subscription service is nesessary to cover the costs of server maintenance etc does not hold up. Other players in the industry are not charging subscriptions. How are they managing? Also what is the reasoning for charging for every app? If this is about devolopment then it doesn't appear to show it. Siemens & Risco apps are way ahead of HKC and those are both free.

altor

I am a little perplexed myself, was this not your first post?

Seq uence wrote: »

Are you talking about monitoring with polling ? If so this is not limited to HKC, this type of monitoring is availabe on most new systems through some monitoring stations.
For monitoring through your phone apps I would advise you shop around. There are a number of different systems that allow monitoring over IP direct to your phone which is free. HKC are the only ones I know that charge for this service as far as I am aware.

It mentions both monitoring by a monitoring station plus self monitoring over IP, it also makes reference to the HKC polling?
There is a big difference in what you would be paying for a dual com to a monitoring station compared to what HKC are charging to do this yourself.
My question was which system provides GPRS for free as I have not come across any.
HKCs server is not located in there office, it is hosted at a separate location.
That is were the extra expense comes in, maintenance and hosting of the server. The likes of Risco are a multinational, If HKC where as big as them I am sure it would be a free product too.

Riscos cloud was down for 4 hours at the weekend, did you know that?

Do you really class Seimens App that highly, no push to mobile for alarm events?

kub

altor wrote: »

I am a little perplexed myself, was this not your first post?



It mentions both monitoring by a monitoring station plus self monitoring over IP, it also makes reference to the HKC polling?
There is a big difference in what you would be paying for a dual com to a monitoring station compared to what HKC are charging to do this yourself.
My question was which system provides GPRS for free as I have not come across any.
HKCs server is not located in there office, it is hosted at a separate location.
That is were the extra expense comes in, maintenance and hosting of the server. The likes of Risco are a multinational, If HKC where as big as them I am sure it would be a free product too.

Riscos cloud was down for 4 hours at the weekend, did you know that?

Do you really class Seimens App that highly, no push to mobile for alarm events?

As that saying goes you get what you pay for.

Seq uence

Altor
I am quite simply just pointing out the free options that are available to end users.
I have already acknowledged your chargeable options are there if required. Why do you feel the need to keep bringing that back up is a discussion about whats available for free via IP.
It seems you like to keep repeating over and over what HKC are charging for yet you want to put down or find fault with other options out there. Talking like with like for IP monitoring only via apps or other alerts there are systems that can do this for free . HKC do not have a similar product without paying an annual subscription. Is that correct?
All I am doing to trying to give people here all the options.
Regarding the Risco Cloud being down do you have anything backing this up? or times/dates?
I would have been doing a fair bit of remote work on Risco systems over the weeked and I never noticed any issues.
I have also spoken to Risco and they say their service was not down.
What has server location got to do with maintenance and running costs?
If anything Siemens & Risco would have higher running & hosting costs.
What about GSD? They are not a multinational company and they are offering free apps and free cloud services?
I am also a little confused regarding your comment on the Siemens app. You seem to be well up on things. Most people in the industry are by now aware of the Siemens upcoming panel & portal upgrades.
I do hope you do not thake this post in the wrong context. I am quite simply trying to put out as much imformation as possible on all options available to customers.

Kub , I agree with you entirly. You do get what you pay for.On the other hand however as a consumer it is nice to be imformed on whats available that you are not required to pay for.

Evolution1

I'm using the Risco cloud via GPRS and I hate it. Yes the Risco server was down at the weekend and I didn't get any notifications. Now that it's back up I have it setup to notify me when my panel loses comms which is happening 2-3 times per day! It's costing me €10 a month to keep it running. The LAN card is supposedly more reliable but I'm not taking the chance and spending another €100 quid to find out. Of course I'm not saying don't go for the Risco gear. It's very good to use. I'm just not a fan of the cloud.

Evolution1

Seq uence wrote: »

Altor

I have also spoken to Risco and they say their service was not down.

Well then they lied to you. The servers were down and they confirmed this.

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

Seq uence wrote: »

Altor

I have also spoken to Risco and they say their service was not down.

Well then they lied to you. The servers were down and they confirmed this.

I got the same reply, system was down for 4 hours.

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

I'm using the Risco cloud via GPRS and I hate it. Yes the Risco server was down at the weekend and I didn't get any notifications. Now that it's back up I have it setup to notify me when my panel loses comms which is happening 2-3 times per day! It's costing me €10 a month to keep it running. The LAN card is supposedly more reliable but I'm not taking the chance and spending another €100 quid to find out. Of course I'm not saying don't go for the Risco gear. It's very good to use. I'm just not a fan of the cloud.

Have you a good signal on the GPRS?

Evolution1

altor wrote: »

Have you a good signal on the GPRS?

5/5 using a meteor data sim. The only issue I'm having is with the cloud connection and it's really annoying cause everything else is working great.
Anyone want to swap a gsm module for the LAN card ?

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

5/5 using a meteor data sim. The only issue I'm having is with the cloud connection and it's really annoying cause everything else is working great.
Anyone want to swap a gsm module for the LAN card ?

Seems strange your loosing connection with the cloud like that, maybe the wifi would work better in conjunction with the GPRS.
You should have a look at adverts, think I seen a user selling an agility system, might have a wifi card to sell or swap.

marge2006

Hi all. Many thanks for all the helpful replies. I'm resurrecting this old thread now as I'm hoping to go ahead with the upgrade ASAP. Just a few further queries. I do have wifi in the house but I turn this off when not in use, for health reasons as I have concerns that it may have health effects if left on all the time ! Also my wifi is prone to poor coverage given my rural location, weather etc. Anyhow, I would be looking for the pinging type module via GSM Can someone explain the different options ? I wouldn't mind having the option of IP monitored also but given that my wifi is often off or sometimes doesn't work would this be possible ? any point ? I've decided to have CCTV also with a single camera on the front of the house. It's a 2 story house. Altogether I have 9 windows downstairs and four french doors. All are wired and have either contacts or inertias, but not both. Upstairs windows would be ok as is I think. I'd also need 2 panic buttons installed. Re the CCTV I would need advice as to how best to operate this given my IP limitations ? Could I use an app on my ipad to monitor the alarm given my wifi situation ? Any advice welcome and an indication of cost. I don't mind paying a small annual sub for an app etc. Many thanks !

KoolKid

There are many systems where you could use IP for monitoring without the need for WiFi.
What system have you in mind?

degsie

marge2006 wrote: »

I do have wifi in the house but I turn this off when not in use, for health reasons as I have concerns that it may have health effects if left on all the time !

Not to derail, but how have you come to this conclusion?

altor

marge2006 wrote: »

Hi all. Many thanks for all the helpful replies. I'm resurrecting this old thread now as I'm hoping to go ahead with the upgrade ASAP. Just a few further queries. I do have wifi in the house but I turn this off when not in use, for health reasons as I have concerns that it may have health effects if left on all the time ! Also my wifi is prone to poor coverage given my rural location, weather etc. Anyhow, I would be looking for the pinging type module via GSM Can someone explain the different options ? I wouldn't mind having the option of IP monitored also but given that my wifi is often off or sometimes doesn't work would this be possible ? any point ? I've decided to have CCTV also with a single camera on the front of the house. It's a 2 story house. Altogether I have 9 windows downstairs and four french doors. All are wired and have either contacts or inertias, but not both. Upstairs windows would be ok as is I think. I'd also need 2 panic buttons installed. Re the CCTV I would need advice as to how best to operate this given my IP limitations ? Could I use an app on my ipad to monitor the alarm given my wifi situation ? Any advice welcome and an indication of cost. I don't mind paying a small annual sub for an app etc. Many thanks !

Wifi with GPRS back up, is that what you are looking for?
If the wifi goes down then the GPRS kicks in. Are you looking for self monitoring or through a monitoring station? Both are possible given what you are asking.

marge2006

Hi again. Been having some wifi difficulties hence delay in replying. Yes i think GPRS is what i want is this the same as GSM ? I just would like an idea of costs for all these add ons i.e extra contacts/ inertias x 9, panics x 2, cctv, plus remote monitoring, cost of app etc ? Also how would the cctv be best monitored/recorded ? Many thanks

KoolKid

Wireless devices range from €20-60 for contacts sensors or PiRs depending on make brand etc. Wireless smoke detectors etc would be a bit dearer.
I am curious . You have an issue with WiFi but you would be ok with all these wireless devices etc?
From most manufacturers apps & the use of apps are free. HKC charge €7.99 per app & an annual subscription to use them.
CCTV with remote monitoring? Thats a vague one. what type of system do you want? How many cameras? What quality of cameras? Wired or wireless here?
Anything from a few hundred to a few thousand or higher.

marge2006

Ok. My current system is wired so I would prefer to keep the system wired. I have smoke alarms already so don't need anymore. Similarly would prefer a single wired CCTV camera. I have no idea how these work best. If there is a recorder in the house surely this could be tampered with by burglars so is it best to have the recordings elsewhere ? Does the CCTV activate on movement or is it always recording ?

KoolKid

On the CCTV you are still being a little vague . Cameras connect to a hard drive recorder. Normally located in a less accessible location;recording off site is also an option. Cameras can be set to record always or on motion detection.

marge2006

Ok off site recording perhaps with motion detection. Could I put the recorder in the attic or in the garage ? One final question - any advice on outside sensor lights for a 2 story house ? Are there differences in product ? I don't want to be changing bulbs so should I ask for LEDs ?

KoolKid

Recorder can be located anywhere as long as it's environment is acceptable.
For lighting you can use LED units. 50-75 w would give you decent lighting.

altor

marge2006 wrote: »

Ok. My current system is wired so I would prefer to keep the system wired. I have smoke alarms already so don't need anymore.

You can add a voice dialer to most systems for self monitoring.

marge2006

Altor. I understand that a self dialler system can ring a couple of mobiles but what if they get no reply or it goes to voicemail ?

KoolKid

It will play the prerecorded message & as it doesn't get any human verification if will move on & dial the next number on the list. A bit time consuming , alerts via email or push notifications to everyone at the same time would be quicker.
Voice diallers & text diallers are old technology now its time to move with the times.:pac:

marge2006

Koolkid, can explain what a push notification is please. Do you mean email ?Also with the pinging system /GPRS can you set it to ping every minute and if one ping is missed the notification is then sent to all listed contacts ? Can I ask if a radio transmitted signal would be superior to GPRS and not prone to jamming devices ?

KoolKid

Pus notification is sent directly to the app on your phone and give you an alert on your phone like when you get an SMS etc.
You can also get some systems to email you.
Pining at every 3 minutes is as standard on the systems we use.I don't think you are going to find any station that is going to spend their time responding to 1 missed poll.
Anything can be jammed. With regular polling you will know about it quicker.

marge2006

Thanks Koolkid. So there is nothing superior to radio signalling over GPRS then ? I had found a company online who use radio signalling and say it is less susceptible to jamming but perhaps what you are saying is correct. How many missed pings issues an alert normally ? Surely not more than one as the burglars could be well gone with whatever they want to take after 5 or 10 minutes ?

KoolKid

Normally 5 missed polls. After one or 2 is not workable. I have seen radios disconnected all night and neither the installer or customer got a call.
Duel com would also be using a phone line as well, so one path is backing up another.

marge2006

Are you serious ? That means 15 minutes ? Why so long ? Surely the point of it going off means a rapid response ? So say the alarm goes off at 8 pm and im at work when do i get the text alert ? Why you say that the radio can be disconnected and this is not picked up, surely this is the point of paying a monthly fee ? When you say use phoneline do you mean GPRS as a dual system ?

KoolKid

15 minutes for a line fault not for an alarm activation..
Do you honestly think it would be possible to man a central station monitoring tens of thousands of alarm systems and respond to every missed poll?
What action would you like them to take?
Would you as a key holder wan't to be called for every missed poll?Day or Night?
Can you maybe outline what monitoring you expect & what actions you would expect for different events?