Ryanair A350 / B787 for Transatlantic

billie1b

Seems the Ryanair transatlantic is back in the news again, playing Boeing off Airbus for cheaper planes most likely

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/business/Retail_and_leisure/article1453046.ece

Cant get full story as you have to subscribe, just seen it pop up on my twitter this morning.

Zonda999

Can't see this either in the hard copy of this mornings Sunday Times Business Section.Plenty stories about EI and Ryanair in general but nothing on this.

I'm surprised the A330NEO hasn't been mentioned at this stage, surely the A339NEO would be good for any potential venture like this, and Ryanair buying the 330NEO would give the program a good boost!

Idbatterim

the xwb can take off at MTOW from Dublin. Didnt O'Leary say he wouldnt fly from Dublin as Aer Lingus would just dump prices? Personally I wouldnt fly via anywhere else to get to the states with Ryanair (being from Dublin), unless I already had to make one connection to get my destination in the states. With the distance and times involved, I wouldnt be messing around for E50 etc... Also on Ryanair v AerLingus, if Ryanair were cheaper and also had state of the art planes, Id take them over AerLingus for the planes alone, the price would be an added bonus...

billie1b

Idbatterim wrote: »

the xwb can take off at MTOW from Dublin. Didnt O'Leary say he wouldnt fly from Dublin as Aer Lingus would just dump prices? Personally I wouldnt fly via anywhere else to get to the states with Ryanair (being from Dublin), unless I already had to make one connection to get my destination in the states. With the distance and times involved, I wouldnt be messing around for E50 etc... Also on Ryanair v AerLingus, if Ryanair were cheaper and also had state of the art planes, Id take them over AerLingus for the planes alone, the price would be an added bonus...

He said he would be flying from Dublin, Milan and Stansted connecting to Newark, JFK and Boston. Im starting to be a big fan of the A350 and i'm already a big fan of the 787, it'd be great if it did happen but its probably just more talk

owenc

They can use their aircraft on transatlantic flights already with the 737-800 having a range of 3100nm already.

billie1b

Not to Newark, JFK or Boston, they would have to change the seating configuration and put it as all business class or a few business class and around 100 economy pax.

owenc

Its 2500 nautical miles to Boston.

billie1b

owenc wrote: »

Its 2500 nautical miles to Boston.

Yes but cause FR only have a one-class configured aircraft they cant do it, it would have to be reconfigured to a maximum of 160 (I think, can't remember exactly, ill have to check) pax with a 2 class configuration.

owenc

Why? Sunwing airlines fly their 737-800's further than that. Infact they fly 2400nm from Belfast to Sharm El Sheikh all summer.

Tenger

owenc wrote: »

They can use their aircraft on transatlantic flights already with the 737-800 having a range of 3100nm already.

Its been stated before that any future Ryanair longhaul operation would be a seperate company. So no blue and white B738's across the Atlantic. Hence the notional airline is sometimes referred to as RyanAtlantic

They would offer E50 fares in Economy and full business class onboard using "modern fuel efficient aircraft". This has always been taken to refer to B787 or A350. In the past LCC's have often stated up with older 2nd hand aircraft. This however doesn't work as well for longhaul as it does for shorthaul. However the creation of Norwegian Longhaul using B787's shows the future for longhaul LCC. (However Norwegian are having their own issues with the operational reliability of the B787 and their max utilisation schedule)


This article is nothing more than rehashing of previous information. Nothing to see here.

Zonda999

I'm still really skeptical about low-cost long haul still. Even out in Asia, these guys are struggling.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/airasia-x-losses-mount-despite-rise-in-customers-20140820-10648t.html

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/lowcost-airlines-see-softer-ticket-sales-20140807-101f67.html

Air Asia X are clearly in it for the long haul though (Pardon the pun!) given their recent big order for the A330NEO

fr336

The article says that the plans are at least 3 years away.

cson

LCC Long Haul will take a lot of fine tuning. At a core level you'd have to strip it down to the bare essentials of a seat and then upsell everything else; the food/baggage/entertainment systems. So you'd have a low initial cost to advertise and lure people in but the actual fare will be closer to that of a full service carrier.

Wifi is a massive potential revenue earner imo; personally I'd easily pay €20+ for Wifi on a transatlantic or long haul journey. Probably even more. We're so connected to technology these days and that'll only increase as the generations go on.

Matthew Gleeson

owenc wrote: »

They can use their aircraft on transatlantic flights already with the 737-800 having a range of 3100nm already.

Not when at capacity, so they'll need a new aircraft

fr336

Ryanair could potentially move away from its exclusive arrangement with Boeing for the launch of its new transatlantic business.

The airline is currently planning a new service between Europe and the US and will use either Airbus 350s or Boeing Dreamliners, according to reports in The Sunday Times .

Ryanair would be following in the footsteps of fellow no-frills carrier Norwegian, which recently launched £150 flights between Gatwick and New York.

“We are happy to be a smarter second mover and watch what happens with them and if they can make it work,” Ryanair’s chief marketing officer Kenny Jacobs told the newspaper .

“We’ve got a model that we know can work. We need to get aircraft, so we can talk to Boeing and Airbus, and we can also see if someone has some distressed inventory [we can take sooner] to make our transatlantic plan a reality.

“There’s a version of Ryanair that will work on transatlantic.”

KnotABother

owenc wrote: »

They can use their aircraft on transatlantic flights already with the 737-800 having a range of 3100nm already.

To carry enough passengers to make it profitable they might want to look into a few of these too

arubex

Surprised they're not starting with a few second-hand 757s or 767s; cheap to buy and they have enough cash in the bank to buy them outright so no monthly repayments. Plenty of type-rated crews on the market ( unlike A350s or 787s )

Much like freight companies they could leave them sitting off-season and not worry about 'losing' money.

Edit: also Transaero in Shannon do mx on the 5 and 6, no need to pay Boeing for an ongoing 787 Gold Care subscription..

L1011

arubex wrote: »

Surprised they're not starting with a few second-hand 757s or 767s; cheap to buy and they have enough cash in the bank to buy them outright so no monthly repayments. Plenty of type-rated crews on the market ( unlike A350s or 787s )

Later build passenger 752s aren't actually that cheap or plentiful. Older ones will have trouble making it across in winter.

owenc

KnotABother wrote: »

To carry enough passengers to make it profitable they might want to look into a few of these too

It does say 3100 nm on their site.

L1011

owenc wrote: »

It does say 3100 nm on their site.

Once again, that is for a much lower weight than a 189 seat layout carries.

Henry Ford III

I wouldn't fancy a 7 hour hop on a B737.

owenc

MYOB wrote: »

Once again, that is for a much lower weight than a 189 seat layout carries.

Could you explain what the real range is then??

owenc

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I wouldn't fancy a 7 hour hop on a B737.

Well I was on a 757 and it was perfect.

man98

RyanAtlantic is a nice idea, but I'd probably use Aer Lingus should I need to go to the US. €220 to Boston at the right time with EI, free checked bag and IFE? Also, I recently read MOL wants to target Business pax, with a nice Business cabin.

man98

Ryanair have no need for cheap used 757s. While they are a lovely aircraft, Ryanair have the money, contacts and public attention to wait a few years and buy new planes. They also hate >10 y/o aircraft in the long term.

owenc

man98 wrote: »

RyanAtlantic is a nice idea, but I'd probably use Aer Lingus should I need to go to the US. €220 to Boston at the right time with EI, free checked bag and IFE? Also, I recently read MOL wants to target Business pax, with a nice Business cabin.

220 one way.

American airlines are 300 return. Aer lingus are NOT cheap.

Irish Steve

I have no axe to grind with narrow body or wide body on trans atlantic, I've flown on both, but there would be issues for a low cost operation.

While most passengers are happy to only take carry on bags for short haul, for holiday type trips, hold bags are going to be a factor, and to get a rapid turnround, you do not want to be having to handle every bag on and off the aircraft, while they need more equipment, bin loaded aircraft are much more satisfactory and can be turned a lot faster than bulk loaded aircraft, and finding bags to remove them because of "issues" with passengers that are missing or denied boarding is a LOT easier on a bin loaded aircraft.

The IFE needs to be given some serious thought, in that with new technology coming on stream, there's a strong case to be made for using tablet type devices for IFE, giving each passenger a choice of what they want to watch, or listen to, and if a development of WiFi is used to provide the service, the weight and complexity implications should be a lot lower, each seat only needs power provision, rather than power, and screens, and some form of network link to the main IFE system. It should be feasible to have a screen rental scheme pre boarding, and also have a rent/buy option for regular travellers, and while it wouldn't be everybody's choice, a forward looking camera build in to the rudder that could be fed into the IFE could be of interest at some stages of the flight. as would a Flightradar24 feed

What would be nice would be to have a lower cost offering that has some frills built in, maybe things like more legroom than existing carriers, low cost doesn't have to be bargain basement to succeed, it just needs to have things that make it attractive to the potential customer, and while price is always a seller, if I have a choice of a €150 euro flight in economy with an existing carrier, or €140 in a low cost carrier but with "frills", or €110 in low cost economy, then I'm going to go for the €140 option, on the basis that it could (should) be a nicer experience.

billie1b

owenc wrote: »

Could you explain what the real range is then??

Depending on weather, RWY length, temperature, aircraft weight and many other factors, average would be around 2200/2400 nautical miles

Henry Ford III

owenc wrote: »

Well I was on a 757 and it was perfect.

I was lucky enough to fly business class on a Continental (now United) B757, and it was a comfortable way to travel.

I'd still not fancy the trip in economy in a B737.

owenc

Seat width/seat type/seat pitch is the same as a wide body, the 737-900 ER is only 5m shorter than the 757.

I know the plane is smaller but with a six hour flight it shouldn't matter too much - for me the only flights that I would refuse to fly on a narrow body would be any which are more than 8 hours. (3700 miles)

The flight from Berlin to Newark is a tad daft in my opinion - 9 hours on a narrow body is just not justifiable.

Preset No.3

It's great to see the words "ryanair" and "transatlantic" on a flying forum to see the anoraks go wild with excitement.

Brainwashed by the MOL method of generating free publicity with talk of €10 fares!!!!!

Simple economics, it just won't happen!

man98

owenc wrote: »

220 one way.

American airlines are 300 return. Aer lingus are NOT cheap.

I almost fell for this one, but that's £300, which is €395ish. An EI sale could reduce it to that, and they have PTVs, games etc., and I thought you disliked AA?
On a further note, I'd say Ryanair would have WiFi and cabin moving projectors at the very least. No frills might be grand on Dublin - St. John's, but it would be worse to New York, never mind less economic.

billie1b

owenc wrote: »

Could you explain what the real range is then??

Right I did a quick calculation for you, I used the normal aircraft weight with the proper pax and bag figures for the weights and I estimated the block fuel and trip fuel as I never did a transatlantic sheet before, I dont reckon i'd be too far off on the fuel, but with the plane full, all 189 pax seats and the 6 crew, its 10 tonne over the max take off weight thats permitted for the aircraft, that 10 tonne would have to be found somewhere, first place to look will be pax and bags, as fuel would not be an option, so unless they lowered the config of the aircraft it'd never do it with 189 pax, unless it stopped in Iceland for a fuel top up

owenc

man98 wrote: »

I almost fell for this one, but that's £300, which is €395ish. An EI sale could reduce it to that, and they have PTVs, games etc., and I thought you disliked AA?
On a further note, I'd say Ryanair would have WiFi and cabin moving projectors at the very least. No frills might be grand on Dublin - St. John's, but it would be worse to New York, never mind less economic.

The prices listed in the Aer Lingus site are in pounds and yes American airlines charge that price.

owenc

billie1b wrote: »

Right I did a quick calculation for you, I used the normal aircraft weight with the proper pax and bag figures for the weights and I estimated the block fuel and trip fuel as I never did a transatlantic sheet before, I dont reckon i'd be too far off on the fuel, but with the plane full, all 189 pax seats and the 6 crew, its 10 tonne over the max take off weight thats permitted for the aircraft, that 10 tonne would have to be found somewhere, first place to look will be pax and bags, as fuel would not be an option, so unless they lowered the config of the aircraft it'd never do it with 189 pax, unless it stopped in Iceland for a fuel top up

I would doubt they would put the whole 189 people on their planes for a flight of that length.

Its not going to happen anyway, only if they got a 757 or an a320 neo.

BonkeyDonker

billie1b wrote: »

Right I did a quick calculation for you, I used the normal aircraft weight with the proper pax and bag figures for the weights and I estimated the block fuel and trip fuel as I never did a transatlantic sheet before, I dont reckon i'd be too far off on the fuel, but with the plane full, all 189 pax seats and the 6 crew, its 10 tonne over the max take off weight thats permitted for the aircraft, that 10 tonne would have to be found somewhere, first place to look will be pax and bags, as fuel would not be an option, so unless they lowered the config of the aircraft it'd never do it with 189 pax, unless it stopped in Iceland for a fuel top up

You mean Keflavik, or as it will soon be known Boston East...... :P

L1011

owenc wrote: »

The prices listed in the Aer Lingus site are in pounds and yes American airlines charge that price.

Not for us they're not.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

owenc

I can't believe they think that its acceptable what they offer.

fr336

Preset No.3 wrote: »

Simple economics, it just won't happen!

lol love know it alls, me. Boards seems packed with them

Let's see. FR keep going on about it and now it's not just O'Leary. Saying something won't happen, it's pretty easy to look silly when it does.

KnotABother

owenc wrote: »

It does say 3100 nm on their site.

It's worth pointing out that range is the distance it can fly in a certain config. Boeing work this out by setting everything to the ideal level to get max range. So that would be full tanks, best cruise level, negligible headwind etc.

Also factor in a 2500nm to Boston would be the trip fuel, you then need alternate and reserve fuel plus contingency and whatever more. Aircraft would be packed to the gills with fuel for every flight

owenc

Oh I suppose but i'm not a pilot so don't take all that into consideration.

Razor44

If ryan Atlantic was a serious endeavour. ....surly MOL would be interested in the 11 or so terrible teens. The slighly over weight early 788????? They can be had for knock down prices

b757

Razor44 wrote: »

If ryan Atlantic was a serious endeavour. ....surly MOL would be interested in the 11 or so terrible teens. The slighly over weight early 788????? They can be had for knock down prices

And Transaero just switched their order to the 747-8.

Heard a rumour a few months back about 777's.

Preset No.3

owenc wrote: »

I would doubt they would put the whole 189 people on their planes for a flight of that length.

Its not going to happen anyway, only if they got a 757 or an a320 neo.

You seem insistent on arguing the toss with billie1b. Do you know something about the performance stats of a 738 that the rest of us don't??

Preset No.3

fr336 wrote: »

lol love know it alls, me. Boards seems packed with them

Let's see. FR keep going on about it and now it's not just O'Leary. Saying something won't happen, it's pretty easy to look silly when it does.

My simple economics opinion is based on costs v product. Are all the airlines in a cartel with each other? The average "lowest" price ticket is around €400 to USA east coast.

Do you think a Ryan model is going to be able to offer a €100 ticket to everyone?

Simple economics, it just won't happen.

man98

Well, this is how I see it:
- Adding 10% extra seats than competitors into planes cuts costs (Economics of Scale).
- It has been stated that they'll fly from Dublin, Stansted and Milan, where they get much lower landing costs than competitors (who would be using Heathrow, Malpensa and Gatwick).
- Less frills lower base prices (fact anyway)
- Could schedule a plane to fly 8 times a week, get 1/7 more passengers than most competitors.
- Buy on board food maybe
- Full price Business passengers
All those factored together could save a fortune. I'd say €160 - €170 average fare, given Norwegian can charge £150 (€200)

Tenger

Preset No.3 wrote: »

My simple economics opinion is based on costs v product. Are all the airlines in a cartel with each other? The average "lowest" price ticket is around €400 to USA east coast......

About 4 years ago I got info that in Aer Lingus's case the cost to them of flying a pax to East Coast was a little under E200....hence the lowest one way fartes on EI were E199 plus taxes.

This info is probably well out of date by now.

Tenger

owenc wrote: »

I would doubt they would put the whole 189 people on their planes for a flight of that length.

Its not going to happen anyway, only if they got a 757 or an a320 neo.

But you already stated that their aircraft can already make it across.

owenc wrote: »

I can't believe they think that its acceptable what they offer.

Well the 95% load factors they have experienced all summer would refute your opinion. Lots of other seem to think it is acceptable.

owenc

Preset No.3 wrote: »

You seem insistent on arguing the toss with billie1b. Do you know something about the performance stats of a 738 that the rest of us don't??

I'm not trying to row about anything

L1011

man98 wrote: »

- Could schedule a plane to fly 8 times a week, get 1/7 more passengers than most competitors.
...
- Full price Business passengers

These two things are incompatible with each other

Business passengers require stable and sensible timings - this is why EI are able to compete solidly on MAN/BHX/NCL despite higher prices and props. Getting eight rotations out of a frame will mean it leaves at a different time every day, many of them utterly useless to business passengers.

Fly at crap times and business travel will go to your competition. Only much lower margin leisure travel is as time flexible as an LCC schedule requires them to be.