Cops TV crew memeber killed in shoot out

scottp68877

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/27/omaha-police-kill-cops-tv-show-crew

Police officers who opened fire while disrupting a robbery at a fast-food restaurant killed a crew member with the longrunning TV show Cops as well as the suspect, who was armed with a pellet gun that they thought was a real handgun, authorities in Omaha have said.

The suspect fired from the pellet gun before officers returned fire, Omaha police Chief Todd Schmaderer said at a news conference. He said witnesses and officers thought the robbery suspect’s Airsoft handgun looked and sounded real. They discovered later that it fired plastic pellets.

What do ye think of this? I don't understand how the police could possibly think that a pellet gun could look and sound real. I just think the police are too trigger happy in America.

Shiraz 4.99

Whatca gonna do ?

Timberrrrrrrr

Heading into an armed robbery situation where someone points a gun at you and you think you would be able to tell from distance that it's just a pellet gun?

steddyeddy

Trigger happy idiots.

Fuzzytrooper

scottp68877 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/27/omaha-police-kill-cops-tv-show-crew



What do ye think of this? I don't understand how the police could possibly think that a pellet gun could look and sound real. I just think the police are too trigger happy in America.

To be fair, a lot of airsoft guns look quite real. In fact they're often used as props in films. (Not that I'm opposed to airsoft. Got a nice m4 and used to have a class P90)

o1s1n

If you point an imitation firearm at the police in such a scenario then you should be ready for the consequences.

Duggy747

scottp68877 wrote: »

What do ye think of this? I don't understand how the police could possibly think that a pellet gun could look and sound real. I just think the police are too trigger happy in America.

Pellet guns can definitely look like real pistol and rifles from a distance, if some idiot is running around with one shooting at people then they're hardly going to wait until someone is hit to determine if it was a pellet or a bullet.

solomafioso

I was all like...

ScumLord

A gas powered airsoft gun will not only look like a real gun but it's will cycle like a real gun and make a loud pop when fired including a puff of smoke as the gas leaves the barrel. It could easily be enough to fool someone, even though it doesn't make a loud bang it could be mistaken for a suppressed gun in the heat of the moment.

I wouldn't even point my phone at an American cop.

Fuzzytrooper

To my knowledge a number of states require by law for airsoft guns to have an orange tip. If this was hidden or removed then I can see why assumptions would be made by the officer in question.

My name is URL

o1s1n wrote: »

If you point an imitation firearm at the police in such a scenario then you should be ready for the consequences.

If you point a gun at police you should be prepared

Not innocent bystanders

seamus

Officers continued firing on the suspect as he exited the restaurant

Problem right there. Why are you shooting at a fleeing suspect who is not returning fire?

You should only be shooting a weapon in defence of someone's life. Shooting someone who is fleeing is murder.

shruikan2553

Not sure what you would expect to happen. He tried to make it look like he had a gun, he was successful.

My name is URL

Why are people completely overlooking the fact that police shot and killed an innocent man in the process of trying to take down a fleeing suspect? =/

Mena

seamus wrote: »

Problem right there. Why are you shooting at a fleeing suspect who is not returning fire?

You should only be shooting a weapon in defence of someone's life. Shooting someone who is fleeing is murder.

It says exiting. Not fleeing. These can be two very different things.

seamus

My name is URL wrote: »

Why are people completely overlooking the fact that police shot and killed an innocent man in the process of trying to take down a fleeing suspect? =/

It's inherent that if you get involved in this kind of journalism, then these things are relatively likely to happen. It's a tragedy of course, but he consensually put himself in that risky position.

I think most people are trying to find out why he was hit in the first place, if his job presumably didn't require him to be in the middle of the shoot-out.

Mena wrote: »

It says exiting. Not fleeing. These can be two very different things.

That's a fair point. Most news articles from US sources say that the suspect fired two pellets before officers returned fire, and then he fled out the door.
They seem surprisingly slow to say that the officers fired upon a fleeing man, but they must have otherwise the crew member wouldn't have been hit.

MOH

scottp68877 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/27/omaha-police-kill-cops-tv-show-crew



What do ye think of this? I don't understand how the police could possibly think that a pellet gun could look and sound real. I just think the police are too trigger happy in America.

In fairness, they look pretty similar here

TerrorFirmer

MOH wrote: »

In fairness, they look pretty similar here

They are almost identical. There is no way to distinguish high end airsoft and real firearms unless you're really examining them fairly close - no way in the world you could expect anyone to distinguish between them in scenario like this. As someone else pointed out, most gas/co2 powered airsoft pistols cycle like a real pistol and make a similar noise. Some models even have ejecting shells as an example of how the line could be blurred even further.

seamus

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

They are almost identical. There is no way to distinguish high end airsoft and real firearms unless you're really examining them fairly close - no way in the world you could expect anyone to distinguish between them in scenario like this. As someone else pointed out, most gas/co2 powered airsoft pistols cycle like a real pistol and make a similar noise. Some models even have ejecting shells as an example of how the line could be blurred even further.

Police claimed they saw a muzzle flash as well, presumably in some scenarios you'll see the gas being released when you fire, which could look like muzzle flash?

TerrorFirmer

That's a bit more difficult, could see how you might see some sort of discharge, but airsoft devices don't emit muzzle flashes...

Anybody else read this wondering what happened, then reading it was a cop that killed him, think to themselves "well that makes sense"

scottp68877

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

They are almost identical. There is no way to distinguish high end airsoft and real firearms unless you're really examining them fairly close - no way in the world you could expect anyone to distinguish between them in scenario like this. As someone else pointed out, most gas/co2 powered airsoft pistols cycle like a real pistol and make a similar noise. Some models even have ejecting shells as an example of how the line could be blurred even further.

It is a fair point and I didn't realise that they would actually sound similar. If that is the case do I feel sorry for the cop as he now has two people dead because if it.

ScumLord

scottp68877 wrote: »

It is a fair point and I didn't realise that they would actually sound similar. If that is the case do I feel sorry for the cop as he now has two people dead because if it.

It wouldn't surprise me if the camera man just put himself in a stupid position. A show on the air for that long is probably encouraging cameramen to get closer to the action. Maybe it was the first real bit of action the cameraman had seen all week and sense went out the window.

o1s1n

My name is URL wrote: »

If you point a gun at police you should be prepared

Not innocent bystanders

That is exactly what I was talking about.

willmunny1990

Americans know the score at this stage, you point a finger at a cop in the states and it could lead to you getting shot, that's the nature of the wild west.

o1s1n

seamus wrote: »

Police claimed they saw a muzzle flash as well, presumably in some scenarios you'll see the gas being released when you fire, which could look like muzzle flash?

No, in all the years I was involved in airsoft I never saw such a thing happen as part of the gun's design. Gas is released from the magazine under high pressure and moves the firing mechanism, there's no combustion.

You could, in theory, stick a lighter up to the end of it which might result in that, bit it also might result in the gas mag exploding. I doubt the guy shooting it was doing that anyway.

ScumLord

o1s1n wrote: »

You could, in theory, stick a lighter up to the end of it which might result in that, bit it also might result in the gas mag exploding. I doubt the guy shooting it was doing that anyway.

I tried that once, wouldn't recommend it. You get a big fireball and lingering flames at the end of the barrel. Not even hollywood would try passing it off as muzzle flash.

Little CuChulainn

Mena wrote: »

It says exiting. Not fleeing. These can be two very different things.

Not when you got axe to grind.

seamus

o1s1n wrote: »

No, in all the years I was involved in airsoft I never saw such a thing happen as part of the gun's design. Gas is released from the magazine under high pressure and moves the firing mechanism, there's no combustion.

So on a particularly hot or cold day you wouldn't see a puff of gas (not necessarily a flash) coming from the barrel? Pure curiosity.

Could also be a trick of the mind; the officers' minds see what they expect to see when they see a weapon and hear a shot.

Paramite Pie

My name is URL wrote: »

Why are people completely overlooking the fact that police shot and killed an innocent man in the process of trying to take down a fleeing suspect? =/

That wasn't actually that clear from the OP. I misread that TV crew member pointed a pellet gun at the police. I hadn't read the link.:o

Nerro

Anyone who knows how to handle a real gun and will have training will know the difference between airsoft gun and real thing. Even tho they look real but there are differences. End of barell is a dead giveaway. In my opinion it just shows how incompetent police force in US are. Shoot first ask questions later.

Philo Beddoe

I can't remember how you're supposed to act when you come across an American cop, is it play dead or try and make yourself look big?

ScumLord

Nerro wrote: »

Anyone who knows how to handle a real gun and will have training will know the difference between airsoft gun and real thing. Even tho they look real but there are differences. End of barell is a dead giveaway. In my opinion it just shows how incompetent police force in US are. Shoot first ask questions later.

How are the police in a situation like this supposed to be able to pick out one small feature of a gun from a distance?

I've handled and fired airsoft guns and real handguns (over in Latvia) and it's pretty difficult to know the difference even when they're in hand. Although that can depend on the quality of the airsoft gun. Even the barrel on airsoft guns can have rifling and you wouldn't know any difference until you look down the barrel and see the smaller barrel hidden inside.

I always thought the plug on the magazine where you fill the gas would be a giveaway but apparently some magazines can have a spring tensioner in the same position.

MadsL

My name is URL wrote: »

Why are people completely overlooking the fact that police shot and killed an innocent man in the process of trying to take down a fleeing suspect? =/

Just for comparison, do you feel the same level of outrage when an embedded journalist gets killed in a war zone. Frankly, the word innocent is a bit loaded when it comes to people carrying out this type of active participation 'journalism'. The crew become participants in whatever scene is played out, really was only a matter of time before one got caught in the crossfire.

As to the airsoft pistol, what's to stop you dipping the muzzle of a real gun in orange paint? The cops can't reasonably be expected to not react to any form of potential gun raised at them.

MadsL

ScumLord wrote: »

until you look down the barrel .

*twitch*

Please don't do this. Especially in Latvia.

My name is URL

MadsL wrote: »

Just for comparison, do you feel the same level of outrage when an embedded journalist gets killed in a war zone. Frankly, the word innocent is a bit loaded when it comes to people carrying out this type of active participation 'journalism'. The crew become participants in whatever scene is played out, really was only a matter of time before one got caught in the crossfire.

Bollox it is. He was an innocent civilian. It could just have easilly been a member of the public not involved in any way. Police shot and killed him.. that's fact.

How many embedded journalists have been killed by friendly fire?

A warzone is a whole lot different to a convenience store robbery too. For what purpose do police open fire on a suspect? To save the lives of others immediately present and in danger.. that's it.. there's no greater end-game like there is in a war or conflict.

Claiming thet they seen a muzzle flash too. What a load of absolute shite.

ScumLord

My name is URL wrote: »

Bollox it is. He was an innocent civilian. It could just have easilly been a member of the public not involved in any way. Police shot and killed him.. that's fact.

I haven't heard any facts on what actually happened. A guy focused on his camera may have simply wandered in front of the polices line of fire or put himself in a dangerous position where the police didn't know where he was.

EyeSight

Great logic in this thread. Man committing armed robbery and pointing a gun(albeit airsoft gun) at cops. But he's not the bad guy, the cop is.
The cop should leave and armed man run away? So he can rob/kill someone later? OR maybe jump in a car and force the driver to be his getaway driver.

I know it's great to shout F**k the police like you're 2pac or something. But be logical. The cops wouldn't know if it's a fake, they need to assume its real. They are always on edge cause people do try to kill them(2 cops in vegas were shot dead while eating lunch last April/May). There's been a lot of gun rampages in the US that have killed many innocents, can you imagine if the news story went: "The guy who just shot 12 innocents in a mall earlier shot at officers but when they saw he was exiting the area, they thought it ok to leave him go."

Beano

Nerro wrote: »

Anyone who knows how to handle a real gun and will have training will know the difference between airsoft gun and real thing. Even tho they look real but there are differences. End of barell is a dead giveaway. In my opinion it just shows how incompetent police force in US are. Shoot first ask questions later.

Care to educate us on the how the end of the barrel is a dead giveaway?

rubadub

MadsL wrote: »

Frankly, the word innocent is a bit loaded...

+1

My name is URL wrote: »

Bollox it is. He was an innocent civilian. It could just have easilly been a member of the public not involved in any way. Police shot and killed him.. that's fact.

If a member of the public heard a commotion and ran into the area to get a good look, knowing fine well there was risk of gunfire, then I similarly would not call them an "innocent man", I would not call him guilty but innocent to me has connotations of being completely unavoidable, making out like he was a bystander in the shop by pure chance.

It didn't surprise me in the slightest that it was "overlooked". Journalists in warzones was also the first thing I thought of when I heard it, dunno how you can describe it as "a whole lot different"

innocent
ˈɪnəs(ə)nt/Submit
adjective
1.
not guilty of a crime or offence.
"the prisoners were later found innocent"
synonyms: guiltless, guilt-free, not guilty, blameless, not to blame, in the clear, unimpeachable, irreproachable, above suspicion, beyond criticism, without fault, faultless;

2.
not responsible for or directly involved in an event yet suffering its consequences.
"an innocent bystander"


2.
a person involved by chance in a situation, especially a victim of crime or war.
"they are prepared to kill or maim innocents in pursuit of a cause"

polarbearhead

Why didn't the police shoot the gun out of his hand?

Beano

polarbearhead wrote: »

Why didn't the police shoot the gun out of his hand?

Next you'll be asking why they dont shoot to wound.

ScumLord

Why do bad guys always die when they get shot but good guys just get wounded.

ardle1

Oh so the policy should be, if your not sure what he is pointing don't shoot just laugh, and that goes for all the Bank staff and shop staff during a robbery. I'm actually surprised he actually got a round off before he was shot!

ardle1

Nerro wrote: »

Anyone who knows how to handle a real gun and will have training will know the difference between airsoft gun and real thing. Even tho they look real but there are differences. End of barell is a dead giveaway. In my opinion it just shows how incompetent police force in US are. Shoot first ask questions later.

I agree, they should be issued with 'super dooper' eyesight goggles, just like in the cartoons.

ardle1

Philo Beddoe wrote: »

I can't remember how you're supposed to act when you come across an American cop, is it play dead or try and make yourself look big?

Lol, this is very funny,

nails1

Sure look, at the end of the day these things happen

simplybam

The robber got what he deserved. He was robbing a store, pointing a gun at people. Saved the taxpayer a lengthy and expensive trial and he ain't robbing anybody else.

As for the journalist - occupational hazard - should have gotten a proper job instead of this so-called journalism. Those people are only slightly above ambulance chasers and just below cockroaches in the 'necessary-for-humanity-scale'

diomed

I get the impression that police in the USA believe they are the law. The default seems to be shoot to kill. In a functioning democracy courts decide innocence or guilt, and punishment.

My name is URL

simplybam wrote: »

As for the journalist - occupational hazard - should have gotten a proper job instead of this so-called journalism.

What an incredibly dickish post. What would a 'proper job' be if working on one of the most watched tv shows of the last 30 years isn't one?

Those people are only slightly above ambulance chasers and just below cockroaches in the 'necessary-for-humanity-scale'

And where pray tell, do you sit on that scale?

MadsL

My name is URL wrote: »

Bollox it is. He was an innocent civilian. It could just have easilly been a member of the public not involved in any way. Police shot and killed him.. that's fact.

You have a very high expectation if no bystander gets involved, ever.

How many embedded journalists have been killed by friendly fire?

Terry Lloyd for one.

A warzone is a whole lot different to a convenience store robbery too. For what purpose do police open fire on a suspect? To save the lives of others immediately present and in danger.. that's it.. there's no greater end-game like there is in a war or conflict.

Not to save themselves? Interesting viewpoint.