Principals & The "600 points" Students

Feeded

I work in a voluntary secondary school in Munster and today I saw a photo of one of our most recent leaving cert graduates with our Principal on the local district weekly paper. He did brilliantly (over 600) but there were at least fifteen others that exceeded 500 and regularly contributed to school life in sport, music, open days, took prefect roles etc. The highest achiever didn't do ANYTHING else ...nothing but study.

I'm really annoyed by this photo because it was the only leaving cert photo from our school on the paper. Nothing about the rest of the graduates. I don't like the message that it sends to the rest of the school community and beyond and I'm wondering what other brazen efforts have been made around the country's schools to sidestep the achievements of great students so that the outstanding student can shine brighter.

Witcher

Feeded wrote: »

I work in a voluntary secondary school in Munster and today I saw a photo of one of our most recent leaving cert graduates with our Principal on the local district weekly paper. He did brilliantly (over 600) but there were at least fifteen others that exceeded 500 and regularly contributed to school life in sport, music, open days, took prefect roles etc. The highest achiever didn't do ANYTHING else ...nothing but study.

How do you know he didn't have achievements outside of school?

RH149

Its just a media thing....they draw attention to the ones who stand out most with their 600 points as that makes a story. We have those students every now and then and their photos get in the paper when they get their Best LC Award/Best JC Award but we celebrate the other high achievers like you mentioned on our website or in our brochures. Their pictures will be up a lot longer than the 600 pt guys photo in the paper which probably ends up in the recycling bin the following week.

endacl

What about the student who just scraped a pass? You know the one. Nice kid. Not academically gifted. Worked their hole off. Did their best. Scraped a pass. Were over the moon with the achievement.

Where's their picture?

spurious

endacl wrote: »

What about the student who just scraped a pass? You know the one. Nice kid. Not academically gifted. Worked their hole off. Did their best. Scraped a pass. Were over the moon with the achievement.

Where's their picture?

They are the ones I wish the media would focus on too. The child who was not functionally literate on entry but managed to pass, the child who missed months due to illness, the child who fought on despite deteriorating eyesight or health. The adult who never got a chance to enter secondary school and is doing exams for the first time in their 70s.

The 600 point pupils mostly teach themselves with their high levels of self-motivation. Good on them, but they are only a very small section of the truly inspirational people who get exam results.

happywithlife

I'm with ya on this
I always think of one student I had - hadn't a word of English god love her and was completely lost! I only had her for her leaving cert yr as a sub and it took me a while to realise how poor she was cos she'd get the homework off others and orally in class was just about functional. But she couldn't read a word of English and my paper's language is fairly technical. I worked incredibly hard with her and she passed the ordinary level paper. I rate her sucess as high if not higher than the A1's. She was ready to quit school completely round the time of the pres but I'm so glad she stuck it out. Meet the girl now around town as she works locally and she always - without fail - stops me for a chat.
But you never saw her photo in the paper :-(

Eogclouder

I knew a few people who got the 600+, they are probably some of the dullest people I have ever met.
Academically gifted, but that's about it.

Having them think on their own without having prepared for months and months (looking for patterns, learning off the essays that were written by college lecturers) is usually a situation people like this have a hard time dealing with.

Rubberchikken

agree with you.
but it's really a media thing. never remember such hype about LC results in 'olden time', but in the past decade it's photos in paper, helplines and not just for students, and the whole thing of 'look how well this small percentage did' ethos.

hopefully the kids themselves pay little attention to it, and those that got what they wanted are happy and ready to move on to the next life stage.

Let them have their photo for gods sake. It makes a change from the sporty kids etc being put on the pedestal.

Other kids did well but this one did the best.

byhookorbycrook

As a Learning Support teacher, I know that 6 passes may be an outstanding result for some children, but I don't see why we still can't celebrate those who achieve 600 points, just like we celebrate the team that win the football final, the child who excels musically and so on.

ustazjoseph

I know of a school who regularly has the 6oo point students. They stream their students, focus on the best and I fear have a bottom class for whom little is expected. Perhaps the issue is more about how we support and celebrate students rather than falling into the efficient point factory hype. ?

Enright

Rarely see LCA students selected for photo opportunities, these are equally deserving

Mary63

oh,get over youself,teachers just dont like really bright students because the students ask clever questions the teachers cant answer.Teachers prefer the slogging swots who need spoonfeeding.

What is wrong with the brighter students teaching themselves,the pace of the class and the standard of teaching is holding them back,surely any good teacher would be thrilled to see the bright students self motivating themselves.
Also people want to read about success,they dont want to read about average students which is most of the student body,whats interesting about them.
Also life isnt fair,the brighter students are invariably also very photogenic too,they have received the best of everything since they were born,this attracts the eye and hence the paper is bought,this is the reaosn for taking the photo in the first place.

lulu1

All the very best to each and every student who did their leaving weather they got top marks or just scraped through. I am delighted my own daughter got 450 points and her friend who failed maths by half a point last year and had to repeat also did well. Fair play to them all I for one couldn't do it

spurious

Mary63 wrote: »

oh,get over youself,teachers just dont like really bright students because the students ask clever questions the teachers cant answer.Teachers prefer the slogging swots who need spoonfeeding.

What is wrong with the brighter students teaching themselves,the pace of the class and the standard of teaching is holding them back,surely any good teacher would be thrilled to see the bright students self motivating themselves.
Also people want to read about success,they dont want to read about average students which is most of the student body,whats interesting about them.
Also life isnt fair,the brighter students are invariably also very photogenic too,they have received the best of everything since they were born,this attracts the eye and hence the paper is bought,this is the reaosn for taking the photo in the first place.

Wow, just wow.

endacl

spurious wrote: »

Wow, just wow.

W-O-W?

What an odd way to spell F-F-S...

Mary63

Feeded wrote: »

I work in a voluntary secondary school in Munster and today I saw a photo of one of our most recent leaving cert graduates with our Principal on the local district weekly paper. He did brilliantly (over 600) but there were at least fifteen others that exceeded 500 and regularly contributed to school life in sport, music, open days, took prefect roles etc. The highest achiever didn't do ANYTHING else ...nothing but study.

I'm really annoyed by this photo because it was the only leaving cert photo from our school on the paper. Nothing about the rest of the graduates. I don't like the message that it sends to the rest of the school community and beyond and I'm wondering what other brazen efforts have been made around the country's schools to sidestep the achievements of great students so that the outstanding student can shine brighter.

The student who didnt do anything else got the 600 points,this achievement is probably very rare in a school in a voluntary secondary school and naturally enough the principal wanted to take the brownie points.
The student who got the 600 points has probably got his first choice in medicine,the ones who got the 500 points and faffed around for the year will be fighting for places in DIT.

evolving_doors

endacl wrote: »

W-O-W?

What an odd way to spell F-F-S...

LOL
Deduct 10 points for answering the wrong question.

anyhow...

I wonder do any of the news and media companies (which are INDEPENDANT) have any interests in these repeat schools which feed off the points frenzy?

spurious

Mary63 wrote: »

The student who didnt do anything else got the 600 points,this achievement is probably very rare in a school in a voluntary secondary school and naturally enough the principal wanted to take the brownie points.
The student who got the 600 points has probably got his first choice in medicine,the ones who got the 500 points and faffed around for the year will be fighting for places in DIT.

OK, lol.

evolving_doors

Mary63 wrote: »

The student who didnt do anything else got the 600 points,this achievement is probably very rare in a school in a voluntary secondary school and naturally enough the principal wanted to take the brownie points.
The student who got the 600 points has probably got his first choice in medicine,the ones who got the 500 points and faffed around for the year will be fighting for places in DIT.

not as rare as you think though!...

500 points ain't nothing to be sniffed at either..

Mary63

Its not 600 points though and if they hadnt wasted their time playing GAA etc for the school and missing class time they could have got 600 points too.

partyatmygaff

The ones who excelled in sports, music and other extracurricular activities probably had more than their fair share of moments over the years. Maybe even some newspaper features too. If they got over 500 in their LC, they did a great job and it probably got them what they wanted but they're one in a few thousand.

The person who put in the time, dedication and effort to be one of the very few top-scoring LCers in the country deserves some recognition and they shouldn't be begrudged by their teachers or other students.

That and the article's put up after the Leaving Cert results and that's ultimately all that matters on that day. If you wanted someone to be recognised for being a prefect and representing the school in matches etc, they could have done something near graduation. The LC has nothing to do with any of it.

spurious

You're kind of overdoing it now Mary63, but you got me, I'll admit it.

byhookorbycrook

Mary63 wrote: »

Also life isnt fair,the brighter students are invariably also very photogenic too,they have received the best of everything since they were born,this attracts the eye and hence the paper is bought,this is the reaosn for taking the photo in the first place.

Ignoring errr... typos, so only middle/upper class children get 600 points? Stereotype much???

Blackpanther95

Feeded wrote: »

I work in a voluntary secondary school in Munster and today I saw a photo of one of our most recent leaving cert graduates with our Principal on the local district weekly paper. He did brilliantly (over 600) but there were at least fifteen others that exceeded 500 and regularly contributed to school life in sport, music, open days, took prefect roles etc. The highest achiever didn't do ANYTHING else ...nothing but study.

I'm really annoyed by this photo because it was the only leaving cert photo from our school on the paper. Nothing about the rest of the graduates. I don't like the message that it sends to the rest of the school community and beyond and I'm wondering what other brazen efforts have been made around the country's schools to sidestep the achievements of great students so that the outstanding student can shine brighter.

Wait.. so all he did was study.... And his only achievement is 600 points, then why on earth would you want to take away his picture or have him in with people who did worse. I just can't understand that, his ONLY reward is that, he has dedication. The other guys have their music, they have their plays etc etc and HE HAS ONLY THIS -you wanna take even that away from him

Santa Cruz

endacl wrote: »

What about the student who just scraped a pass? You know the one. Nice kid. Not academically gifted. Worked their hole off. Did their best. Scraped a pass. Were over the moon with the achievement.

Where's their picture?

They don't need a picture. They can wait until the 600 points student needs a plumber and then they can rip him off for as much as they can.

evolving_doors

Mary63 wrote: »

Its not 600 points though and if they hadnt wasted their time playing GAA etc for the school and missing class time they could have got 600 points too.

Ahhh so you reckon anyone who didn't get 600 points was just faffing about?
...
.
.fumbling for bold pen somewhere in pencil case.
.
ahhh there we go...
.
.

Blackpanther95

Armelodie wrote: »

Ahhh so you reckon anyone who didn't get 600 points was just faffing about?
...
.
.fumbling for bold pen somewhere in pencil case.
.
ahhh there we go...
.
.

Well if your working hard to get 200 points, then school might not be for you. Maybe you'll make a great actor or singer or... there are so many jobs that you don't need pen or paper for...
Put it this way when i went to school, it was the 15 year old that made the senior team that was the talk of the school... untill the LC results came out. Now no one was complaining that they weren't getting any attention because they weren't athletically gifted. No one should be complaining about not getting attention if they're not acedemically gifted... its not ur fault

seavill

amazing opinions on this thread, baffled doesn't describe it

Mary63

Im not assuming people who didnt get 600 points were faffing about,i mentioned that in relation to OP who said the wonderful give it all a go characters didnt get credit for all the extra stuff they did,well,why should they,they obviously got involved because they enjoyed the experience,are we supposed to put all the Gaisce award winners on the front page.
Byhookorbycrook,it is a fact that the private schools top the leagues tables every year and their average points would be 450,you only have to look at the intake into the really high point courses in the top universities,the majority of students are from professional middleclass backgrounds.Plumbers sons and daughters dont go on to study law,brains are genetic and you cant turn a donkey into a racehorse.

seavill

Mary63 wrote: »

Im not assuming people who didnt get 600 points were faffing about,i mentioned that in relation to OP who said the wonderful give it all a go characters didnt get credit for all the extra stuff they did,well,why should they,they obviously got involved because they enjoyed the experience,are we supposed to put all the Gaisce award winners on the front page.
Byhookorbycrook,it is a fact that the private schools top the leagues tables every year and their average points would be 450,you only have to look at the intake into the really high point courses in the top universities,the majority of students are from professional middleclass backgrounds.Plumbers sons and daughters dont go on to study law,brains are genetic and you cant turn a donkey into a racehorse.

Thats actually a shocking view of the world to have, if you really believe that because you are a plumber you have no brains and your children wont either I feel really sorry for you. I'd rather be a plumbers son any day than be raised to believe that

AlekSmart

Begrudgery.....that's the word I was stuck for....:)

evolving_doors

Blackpanther95 wrote: »

Well if your working hard to get 200 points, then school might not be for you. Maybe you'll make a great actor or singer or... there are so many jobs that you don't need pen or paper for...
Put it this way when i went to school, it was the 15 year old that made the senior team that was the talk of the school... untill the LC results came out. Now no one was complaining that they weren't getting any attention because they weren't athletically gifted. No one should be complaining about not getting attention if they're not acedemically gifted... its not ur fault

First off:

What if you're working hard to get the 200 points and having a good experience in school and you get the course you want?? I don;t think anyone has the right to tap on the shoulder and say "Sorry sonny school probably just ain't for you".

School/Education is not about working towards 600 points..

singers and actors can get high points too BTW.. but i take your point that college ain;t for everyone.!!

As regards the last point, I think what the OP is saying is that the measure of achievement is purely the 600/A1's that appear in the paper every year without fail. It should be about "education" and every other success that happens in a teenagers life which should be celebrated.

and even then what do the results 'prove'... Personally I just blame the media for lazy/run of the mill journalism that is a box ticked on a calendar in the news office every year. (Not forgetting of course who benefits when all the grind/repeat schools rush to advertise their courses with exxxccceptional teachers lecturers. )

Mary63

Plumbers marry hairdressers,doctors marry other doctors,that is the way it is and always has been.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any occupation that pays you a salary but if you have to slog to get 250 points after six years in secondary school university is not for you.

evolving_doors

Mary63 wrote: »

Im not assuming people who didnt get 600 points were faffing about,i mentioned that in relation to OP who said the wonderful give it all a go characters didnt get credit for all the extra stuff they did,well,why should they,they obviously got involved because they enjoyed the experience,are we supposed to put all the Gaisce award winners on the front page.
Byhookorbycrook,it is a fact that the private schools top the leagues tables every year and their average points would be 450,you only have to look at the intake into the really high point courses in the top universities,the majority of students are from professional middleclass backgrounds.Plumbers sons and daughters dont go on to study law,brains are genetic and you cant turn a donkey into a racehorse.

Ahh hold on there, the primary role of the league tables is to show the transfer rate to third level college... Of course everyone going to grind schools go to college... so of course they are going to have the highest transfer rate to college!!

Mary63 wrote: »

Plumbers sons and daughters dont go on to study law,
brains are genetic
and you cant turn a donkey into a racehorse.

Could you provide a link to prove those 2 statements please?

rainbowtrout

Mary63 wrote: »

The student who didnt do anything else got the 600 points,this achievement is probably very rare in a school in a voluntary secondary school and naturally enough the principal wanted to take the brownie points.
The student who got the 600 points has probably got his first choice in medicine,the ones who got the 500 points and faffed around for the year will be fighting for places in DIT.

I'd love to see you post that in the Trinity forum. :pac:

acequion

[QUOTE=Mary63;91971282]Plumbers marry hairdressers,doctors marry other doctors,that is the way it is and always has been.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any occupation that pays you a salary but if you have to slog to get 250 points after six years in secondary school university is not for you.[/QUOTE]

No Mary63 that is not the way it is. Maybe you live in some upper class enclave of rigid social boundaries and a breathtaking superiority complex.

But fortunately one of the good things about Ireland relative to other countries is that class divisions are not so rigid and actually I know a doctor who is married to a hairdresser and another lady doctor married to an electrician.

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

No Mary63 that is not the way it is. Maybe you live in some upper class enclave of rigid social boundaries and a breathtaking superiority complex.

But fortunately one of the good things about Ireland relative to other countries is that class divisions are not so rigid and actually I know a doctor who is married to a hairdresser and another lady doctor married to an electrician.

I know a farmer's daughter who became a Barrister!!! In Mary63's mileau that wouldn;t be allowed either i'd say..:pac::pac: wotwot

rainbowtrout

Mary63 wrote: »

Im not assuming people who didnt get 600 points were faffing about,i mentioned that in relation to OP who said the wonderful give it all a go characters didnt get credit for all the extra stuff they did,well,why should they,they obviously got involved because they enjoyed the experience,are we supposed to put all the Gaisce award winners on the front page.
Byhookorbycrook,it is a fact that the private schools top the leagues tables every year and their average points would be 450,you only have to look at the intake into the really high point courses in the top universities,the majority of students are from professional middleclass backgrounds.Plumbers sons and daughters dont go on to study law,brains are genetic and you cant turn a donkey into a racehorse.

*bursting my arse laughing at this comment and how ludicrous it is


You do realise that intelligent people can do trades? That not everyone wants a university education, and up until the mid 90s many were simply not able to afford it before the fees were abolished so they went and did trades/got a job?


I'm an electrician's daughter, both my parents left school at 15, they don't have academic qualifications. I hold qualification from four universities. Neither of my parents are donkeys, they just didn't have the opportunity of getting a Leaving Cert not to mind go to third level. They made sure I got that chance. Your narrow view of the world is breathtaking.

I'm delighted to be able to say that I work in a VEC school and am watching lots of students heading away to third level at the moment who come from the backgrounds you think aren't capable of third level.

spurious

You could argue the really smart ones should be plumbers, not doctors.

People will put off checking out a lump longer than they will getting an overflowing toilet sorted.

I suspect/hope we are having our collective chains pulled by Mary63. (Flush!)

Feeded

The reason for starting this thread was because my Principal, while very vocal about the aspirations of the laving cert cohort back in March, shimmied up to the 600+ kid like a housebound dog greeting its owner after a day's work. It was a bit cringeworthy.

I was empathising with the other hard working kids who contributed to school life and managed to get brilliant grades in the process. To me, the kid who embraces the daily life of school with a generous spirit ( volunteers to help first years, plays in the school band at a week's notice, plays on a school team..or stays back after school to help throw up the Christmas crib) are far more rounded individuals and deserve some recognition for their multitasking ability. I heard today that there's a plan to publish an article in next week's paper but it's too late in my opinion...the Principal has subtly judged them by placing them in separate editions.

Of course I'm not naive; I know such photos help with promoting the school and help to keep us all in a job but it sends out another message too. An earlier post suggested that the dedication of the 600+ student should be recognised and I agree but there's no harm in referencing it in a more inclusive light.

oncex

Mary63 wrote: »

Plumbers marry hairdressers,doctors marry other doctors,that is the way it is and always has been.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any occupation that pays you a salary but if you have to slog to get 250 points after six years in secondary school university is not for you.

And how did you do in your Leaving Cert Mary? :rolleyes::rolleyes: Daughter of a plumber, got 550...if only my father was a doctor I may have got the other 50 points

Witcher

Feeded wrote: »

To me, the kid who embraces the daily life of school with a generous spirit ( volunteers to help first years, plays in the school band at a week's notice, plays on a school team..or stays back after school to help throw up the Christmas crib) are far more rounded individuals and deserve some recognition for their multitasking ability.

Again, how do you know he doesn't partake in activities outside of school?

Or is it only school activities that help to make a well rounded individual?

'Someone who hasn't put up a school crib hasn't lived!!!' :pac:

Mary63

I think we could give those students mug of the year award Blay.

LoveChanel

Mary63 wrote: »

Plumbers marry hairdressers,doctors marry other doctors,that is the way it is and always has been.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any occupation that pays you a salary but if you have to slog to get 250 points after six years in secondary school university is not for you.

You know you should not stereotype people. I know a doctor who has married a Carpenter. A considerable amount of wealthy people haven't gone to uni and haven't finished secondary school. Just because you only get 250 in the lc does not mean your future salary is gonna be bad.

evolving_doors

OK, it's one thing to propose that socio economic background bestows advantage to offspring, but stating that plumbers can't beget solicitors (or whatever) is a bit DowntonAbbeyAsshattery.

Member has 'been sent to Belize' for a bit for flaming and not reading the charter, so back on topic.

LC student on newspaper with Principal...

Do not refer to this post etc.

Blackpanther95

Armelodie wrote: »

OK, it's one thing to propose that socio economic background bestows advantage to offspring, but stating that plumbers can't beget solicitors (or whatever) is a bit DowntonAbbeyAsshattery.

Member has 'been sent to Belize' for a bit for flaming and not reading the charter, so back on topic.

LC student on newspaper with Principal...

Do not refer to this post etc.

Okay so that means ^ just ignore that, and don't rebuttle or anything - ok cool.

Well obviously I don't agree with anything so silly, but I will say regarding the original post again, that if you ONLY study and your ONLY achievement is getting 600 points, is it so much to ask that you receive a bit of praise, on your own.

Feeded

Blay wrote: »

Again, how do you know he doesn't partake in activities outside of school?

Or is it only school activities that help to make a well rounded individual?

'Someone who hasn't put up a school crib hasn't lived!!!' :pac:

Honestly, I know it's a regime of school, home and back again to school...and a Christmas Crib is like a good old barn raising...only this kid isn't interested in offering support to anyone else...I'm saying there are kids who can manage to do both and I've way more time for them...

evolving_doors

Blackpanther95 wrote: »

Okay so that means ^ just ignore that, and don't rebuttle or anything - ok cool.

Well obviously I don't agree with anything so silly, but I will say regarding the original post again, that if you ONLY study and your ONLY achievement is getting 600 points, is it so much to ask that you receive a bit of praise, on your own.

I agree with you in the sense that its specifically results day and the student should get their dues...

I think though it runs much deaper than a photo in the paper...

For me it raises issues such as...
A rounded education:
(although in our school a student got the 625 and was into everything so the high achievers shouldnt be portrayed as a homogenous group who 'just study' to the detriment of everything else).

The points race:
If you have issues with the academic process then it kind of implies that 200points precludes you from college..when in fact I know a good few folk who didn't do to well but later in life went on to study in University.

As was mentioned earlier League tables are touted as being the best measure of a good school, when in fact it just shows the transfer rate from that school to third level only. I think its better to have a social mix where a school caters for all students including a trade, joining the army/guards, farmers,doctors,solicitors, stay at home parents. So it returns to the question of what the principal in the photo is 'selling'...and more importantly...what are all the grind school adds stuffed into that newspaper selling, cos it aint a holistic education to my mind.

And of course it leads nicely into the whole question of performance pay to teachers based on results.

So as far as the OP's point goes, I'd say in the microcosm world of ....results day=student with best result photo... then the student has fulfilled the requirement to appear in the paper.
But on a macro level...teachers are sick of the same old same old every year...

but maybe the nub is that the other students who are 'more rounded' shouldnt take any lesson from the token reward of the photo op. because everyone has their own achievements and struggles. They want to do well in school and other areas based on its own intrinsic merits...not because they might get the face in the paper to sell ads for grind schools.

mirrorwall14

I would like to see a proper spread in the local papers. The top student/students, the prefect who also achieved, the musician, sportsperson, the SEN student going to college etc etc. Essentially an acknowledgement that yes, even though this day may be about points there is no need for the media to continue to ignore other aspects of schooling.

rainbowtrout

Part of it feeds into the attitude if the principal. We had a 600 point student who I believe was on the paper - I didn't see it, but from what the principal told me a photographer from the local paper was hanging around outside the school from shortly after nine and asking all the students that came out if they would pose for a photo. Some said yes and some said no. Principal / teachers were not in photos. So there were a spread of photos from the school.