No invoice for decorating job

mrcheez

Recent decoration job carried out and decorator assured me he would give a receipt at the end (hence my assumption he is charging VAT on the job etc), so I go ahead with the job and pay in cash with promise that receipt will be given to me (in retrospect I should have withheld cash, but the guy seemed trustworthy enough so I thought nothing of it).

Days pass.. no receipt... enquire with decorator who claims it was a cash job (although I have written confirmation from him that there would be no problem getting receipt).

The company has a website, although there are no VAT details (again I probably should have ticked).

So...eh... do I just name and shame the company publicly and move on, or can I go through a complaints process to put some pressure on the company to deliver on their promises?

I suspect this guy never pays tax, so I would have no problem passing their details onto the revenue.

Just to clarify, this is NOT a Taxation query, it's Consumer Issues so please keep in this forum, thanks.

tayto lover

Clearly a tax evasion scheme.
I'd report them to the Revenue.

workingdog

tayto lover wrote: »

Clearly a tax evasion scheme.
I'd report them to the Revenue.

Well if he done a good job.and you were happy with price id just move on.

Hollister11

If your happy with the job leave it.

SteveAdti

Im guessing he gave you a decent price .?
You are probably asking for a Vat receipt.?
So what if he isnt registered for Vat.
If he did a good job leave the guy alone .
Unless you are wanting to claim back Vat through your business for a personal job.?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Just curiosity; why did you want a receipt?

Beano

he is not obliged to register for vat

dudara

Please do not name the decorater in this forum.

I recall that you are not obliged as a consumer to automatically receive a receipt. However, if you ask for one, it must be provided. (Open to correction on this one).

It also may be the case that the decorator does not have to register for VAT, depending on their annual turnover. However, if you feel that this is not the case, then I'd suggest contacting the Revenue.

chuckyarelaw

mrcheez wrote: »

Recent decoration job carried out and decorator assured me he would give a receipt at the end (hence my assumption he is charging VAT on the job etc), so I go ahead with the job and pay in cash with promise that receipt will be given to me (in retrospect I should have withheld cash, but the guy seemed trustworthy enough so I thought nothing of it).

Days pass.. no receipt... enquire with decorator who claims it was a cash job (although I have written confirmation from him that there would be no problem getting receipt).

The company has a website, although there are no VAT details (again I probably should have ticked).

So...eh... do I just name and shame the company publicly and move on, or can I go through a complaints process to put some pressure on the company to deliver on their promises?

I suspect this guy never pays tax, so I would have no problem passing their details onto the revenue.

Just to clarify, this is NOT a Taxation query, it's Consumer Issues so please keep in this forum, thanks.

Even if they give a receipt they may not be vat registered. Threshold is around €38k a year I think?

Phoenix3

If the work was in your house,you wont be able to reclaim VAT anyway.

Gillo

SteveAdti wrote: »

So what if he isnt registered for Vat.
If he did a good job leave the guy alone .

So while the vast majority of people do pay tax it's grand for this guy to dodge it. I'm genuinely confused why people support this attitude, don't get me wrong I'd love to pay less tax but why should some people get away with not paying it?

Sully

Not every business is VAT registered and they don't have to be either. There is a threshold.

Saying that, they must provide a receipt if requested and the transaction would have to be declared for income taxation purposes.

davo10

If a tradesman offers a 30% discount on a job for cash, I have great respect for those who stand by their principles and demand to pay the higher price by cheque. If he did a good job OP, let it go, you saved some money.

Lux23

He might not be earning enough to pay vat, I think it's like 75,000 a year? I could be wrong about the figure.

Sully

More info here:
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/guide/registration.html#section2

I remember telling a former colleague about this. He was stunned and said I was wrong, that he was self employed before and knew his stuff. Told him my accountant told me and he insisted my accountant was doing a bad job. Always wanted to print out the notice from Revenue and drop it into him :P

mphalo1

no, name and shame yourself ,for other tradesmen to avoid!

dudara

@mphalo1 - Post constructively or don't post

dudara

mphalo1

apologies

FaganJr

Wouldn't you need a receipt for the HRI ( Home Renovation Incentive ) Scheme.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/hri/

I'd certainly wouldn't let this go!

martian1980

If he promised you a receipt, he should be called on it when he doesn't produce it. The quality of the job is irrelevant to the issue. I cannot understand why people think some people should be not be held to the same standards of tax compliance as everyone else, or that you somehow owe him one (on top of paying him the agreed price) for doing the work he agreed to do.

delahuntv

Phoenix3 wrote: »

If the work was in your house,you wont be able to reclaim VAT anyway.

yes you can - as announced in the last budget.

It has 2 aims - firstly to stop the black market and secondly to give an incentive for a labour intensive industry.

ZeroThreat

mphalo1 wrote: »

no, name and shame yourself ,for other tradesmen to avoid!

you mean so those working in the black economy can avoid??

mrcheez

mphalo1 wrote: »

no, name and shame yourself ,for other tradesmen to avoid!

wow, what a pointless post. I take it you assume tradesmen should avoid paying tax where possible right?

martian1980 wrote: »

If he promised you a receipt, he should be called on it when he doesn't produce it.

Just a bit of background, I got several quotes. Some were cash prices, some included VAT. The VAT prices came up to roughly the same as the "cash" price these guys offered so I'm not saving money by getting this price.

There are a few "touch-ups" still required which they said they would come back for, but I notice this promise has somewhat dwindled since I asked them about the receipt they assured they'd give me. So the job isn't finished really, but again I trusted that they'd come back to finish it off once they were free.

Anyway it's beside the point, I need the receipt as it was promised to me (whether VAT is included or not).

The question is: is there any ombudsman that I can report tradesmen to?

ZeroThreat

mrcheez wrote: »

wow, what a pointless post. I take it you assume tradesmen should avoid paying tax where possible right?



Just a bit of background, I got several quotes. Some were cash prices, some included VAT. The VAT prices came up to roughly the same as the "cash" price these guys offered so I'm not saving money by getting this price.

There are a few "touch-ups" still required which they said they would come back for, but I notice this promise has somewhat dwindled since I asked them about the receipt they assured they'd give me. So the job isn't finished really, but again I trusted that they'd come back to finish it off once they were free.

Anyway it's beside the point, I need the receipt as it was promised to me (whether VAT is included or not).

The question is: is there any ombudsman that I can report tradesmen to?

For those providing services isn't the turnover threshold above which they're obliged to register something low like €37500 ?

mrcheez

tayto lover wrote: »

Clearly a tax evasion scheme.
I'd report them to the Revenue.

This would be a last resort but what details would be needed exactly?

The website only has the company name (which may or may not be officially registered).. plus I've got a phone number.

Shimmy Jimmy CocoPop

mrcheez wrote: »

This would be a last resort but what details would be needed exactly?

The website only has the company name (which may or may not be officially registered).. plus I've got a phone number.

You don't need to report them directly to Revenue. Send a politely worded text/email that you need the receipt as promised and if it doesn't materialize tell them you will make enquiries to Revenue about them.

They should be pretty snappy with it unless the company/business name and website as a whole is bogus and not registered at CRO and therefore income tax, in which case you can forget about your receipt. You can try reporting them to Revenue but there are a lot of bogus guys out there. They may have a new website or name on 3 months time.

Id always check any tradesman is registered before giving them work in my house

davo10

If the job was done "for cash" and the OP demands a receipt which includes the vat/tax on it, could tradesman be within his rights to say "fine, no prob, I'll just send you an invoice for the full job price to include taxes, when you pay the outstanding amount, I'll be delighted to forward your receipt". If revenue contact him, he'll just say he is waiting on balance to be paid before issuing a receipt.

I know OP will argue that the price paid was the agreed price, but somewhere along the line he was more than likely asked "how will you be paying?" To which he probably replied "cash" and then the price was given, this is the way these types of quotes/transactions work.

GrumpyMe

mrcheez wrote: »

Recent decoration job carried out and decorator assured me he would give a receipt at the end (hence my assumption he is charging VAT on the job etc).. .

From http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/guide/credit-notes.html#section2

2. Who must issue a VAT invoice?
An accountable person who supplies taxable goods or services (other than construction services supplied under a relevant contract) is obliged to issue a VAT invoice where the supply is made to any of the following:

• Another accountable person,
• A Department of State,
• A local authority,
• A body established by Statute,
• A person who carries on an exempt activity,
• A person other than a private individual in another EU Member State,
• A person in another Member State where a reverse charge to VAT applies, that is, where the supplier is not accountable for VAT in Ireland but the customer is accountable for VAT in the other Member State,
• If requested in writing by an unregistered person in the State, who is entitled to a repayment of such VAT. (Otherwise, an accountable person is not required to issue a VAT invoice to an unregistered person but may do so if they so wish).

So – if the decorator is “An accountable person” and if you are in one of the eight categories above then the decorator “is obliged to issue a VAT invoice”. BTW a VAT invoice and a receipt can be completely different documents!

If you are not in one of the above eight categories then you are at the mercy of the decorator. He is within his rights not to supply a VAT invoice.

If the decorator is NOT registered for VAT and he issued a VAT invoice he would be breaking the law.

I don’t know why he can’t just issue you with a piece of paper to say “Received on 31/07/2014 from MrCheez - €xxx.xx Signed Dec O’Rator” as promised...

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

MouseTail

You can't call him <SNIP>. You have no idea if he is obliged to register for VAT, or if he is tax compliant. If you don't want a cash job, insist on a written quotation, and pay by cheque or bank transfer.

doolox

The Government would be forced to slim down and pay itself less and do with less like the rest of us.

I know an acquaintence of mine who works from July onwards solely for the government. A lot of higher paid people do. In the uncompetitive sectors of the economy people can demand very high wages in the hope of being happy with half of it when tax is deducted. Others in ordinary jobs with ordinary talents cannot.

Many family people find themselves priced out of work because the net gain of a 40hr week after tax and childcare and transport costs are factored in does not make it viable to go out and work, unless you can command a very large rate for your work to compensate for the very high marginal rates of tax in this country.

Big Cheese

Regardless of whether the decorator is registered for VAT or not, he did agree to provide a receipt for the works carried out. This receipt does mot necessarily need to be a VAT receipt but a receipt for the transaction none the less.

If there were issues with the work down the line (paint peeling or discolouring) then the customer would need a receipt to prove the work was carried out by that decorator, for an agreed price, which was paid in full.

Finally, peopl need to wake up a little bit. It seems to be a theme running through most of these replies that avoiding paying tax is acceptable if he gave a good price ( which you are assuming). Does your company wave your PRSI, Income Tax, Pension Levy, USC if you do a good job? I doubt it very much!!!!

A lot of decent, honest tradesmen are trying to make a living and are competing with people who pay no tax, have no insurance and as a resukt can offer better prices. On the surface this may seem great for consumers, but wait until one falls off your roof!!

If he agreed on a receipt. Get the receipt! If he did not specify VAT then it will not have it on it.

mrcheez

davo10 wrote: »

I know OP will argue that the price paid was the agreed price, but somewhere along the line he was more than likely asked "how will you be paying?" To which he probably replied "cash" and then the price was given, this is the way these types of quotes/transactions work.

No the exact wording of the text message is: "Receipt will be no problem and please pay in cash" (I was going to pay via cheque).

So no matter how you look at it, whether they want to charge VAT or not, I am due to receive a receipt that was promised to me.

Normally I am very careful about the tradesmen I go for, in particular for sensitive jobs that could affect my home insurance (like plumbers etc), but thought I'd take a chance on a decorator.

Interestingly enough, I've only had such problems with Irish tradesmen, the foreign ones have been very honest and forthcoming. But that's another story.

mrcheez

GrumpyMe wrote: »

I don’t know why he can’t just issue you with a piece of paper to say “Received on 31/07/2014 from MrCheez - €xxx.xx Signed Dec O’Rator” as promised...

That would actually suit me fine if he isn't registered for VAT.

I've made this clear to him.

If needs be I'll just create my own invoice and put in their details, and try to get them to sign it (perhaps they are dyslexic? No joke.)

mrcheez

Big Cheese wrote: »

If there were issues with the work down the line (paint peeling or discolouring) then the customer would need a receipt to prove the work was carried out by that decorator, for an agreed price, which was paid in full.

That's primarily the reason I want the receipt.

JimsAlterEgo

mrcheez wrote: »

That's primarily the reason I want the receipt.

perhaps tell him that you ar not looking for a VAT receipt

mrcheez

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

perhaps tell him that you ar not looking for a VAT receipt

Post #34

mrcheez wrote: »

That would actually suit me fine if he isn't registered for VAT.

I've made this clear to him.

Sunny Dayz

mrcheez wrote: »

No the exact wording of the text message is: "Receipt will be no problem and please pay in cash" (I was going to pay via cheque).

If you were going to pay him a cheque, why didn't you insist on pay him the cheque so. Make up some excuse about not paying in cash (security, atm out of order, limit on atm withdrawls etc).


In relation to the receipt - you could have handed him a piece of paper and a pen and got him to write "received with thanks €xxx from Mr. Cheez on date, signed Tradesman".

sconhome

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

If you were going to pay him a cheque, why didn't you insist on pay him the cheque so. Make up some excuse about not paying in cash (security, atm out of order, limit on atm withdrawls etc).

Interesting comments across the board.

OP you are entitled to a receipt whether the contractor is VAT registered or not. Some people like receipts to keep track of household expenses, not necessarily to claim VAT for private work through business or messing like that.

Re the comment above, how you pay him is up to you but it is also possible that the contractor asked for cash inorder to avoid a cheque being tied up in the bank for clearing. It is not beyond the realms of possiblities that they have been burned by bounced cheques in the past which is why they insist on cash.

Also may have needed cash to pay wages etc.

No excuse for not scribbling out "Received with thanks...€x, Joe Bloggs"

Company have been in done the job, can you email them? Put your request in writing whilst also idnetifying the snags that a revisit was promised and requesting details on 'defects liability period' if any.

dudara

OK - it's clear that this is not about having a VAT receipt. The OP is simply seeking a receipt.

No further off-topic comments. Please address the actual request.

dudara

mrcheez

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

If you were going to pay him a cheque, why didn't you insist on pay him the cheque so. Make up some excuse about not paying in cash (security, atm out of order, limit on atm withdrawls etc).

because...

AKW wrote: »

Also may have needed cash to pay wages etc.

as above.

But it was a little more complicated than just "job finished / pay cash". If that was the case I would have said, yes please write down a receipt, as I normally do for other jobs.

Problem this time is that I paid a portion of the cash, and the balance once the rest of the work was done. One of the labourers finished the rest of the work a few days later and said he had to pick up the balance (he wouldn't have been in the position to write a receipt).

Anyway, I've written both emails and phone contact is non-existent as phone isn't being answered plus I'd rather avoid getting into a vocal fighting match until I knew where I stood after posting here.

So I guess I have enough to go on to pursue it over the phone now. cheers.

fred funk }{

Just to note. Just because he wants to be paid in cash doesn't mean he's avoiding tax.

I know several trades people who got badly burnt with cheques bouncing so unless they know the person extremely well they demand cash as payment.

Hootanany

Was it an expensive painting job? Did you not check out his previous work was he recommended, was his the cheapest estimate. Just trying to get some background.?

mrcheez

Fairly. Yes I did and yes. Not cheapest, selected them because they appeared the most legitimate company and I didn't fancy a cash job sort of thing.

Go figure.


UPDATE: After some persistence he has relented and promised me the receipt. I think it was after I offered to pop over to their premises to pick up the receipt.

2 stroke

mrcheez wrote: »

One of the labourers finished the rest of the work a few days later and said he had to pick up the balance (he wouldn't have been in the position to write a receipt).

I'm a labourer and I often collect the balance due and write receipts. Sometimes issues like this arise. My employer is tax and vat compliant. I'd like to address some of the issues here as apply in my employment.

Thread title refers to no invoice, did the op mistakenly ask for an invoice instead of a reciept? As a labourer I cannot issue an invoice, as I cannot issue credit, they are printed by computer to all credit customers, these have accounts and get 30 days credit. Cash price means no credit, but can be paid by cash, cheque or card, cheques are only refused from families that have previously presented dodgy ones. My employer will supply an invoice to a cash customer on request, only if the balance is paid in full. Credit customers must set up an account and provide bank and trade references. Before adoption of this policy several people in business have taken 30+ days credit on works outside their business.
If anyone feels that a business isnt tax compliant, report them. It won't do a legitimate business any harm, the pain of dealing with the odd audit is compensated by the reduction of competition in the black economy.

mrcheez

I asked for a receipt, thread title isn't correct.

Incidentally who do you report them to?

mrcheez

btw I received an email from them saying:

"Receipt"
(Description of job)
(Cost of job)
"Regards (decorator's name)"

It didn't actually say "payment received on (date)" or anything. Is this considered a valid receipt, or does it need to be a physically-signed piece of paper?

WildCardDoW

My dad is a plumber and an invoice would normally be a headed piece of paper with his vat number on it and a details of the material cost and job cost. It's been a while since I looked at one though!

i.e.

"WildCardDoW Plumbing"
vat no. 12345678C
Mobile: 08XXXXXXXX

Invoice: Client Name, Address

To supply and fit:

To plumb and fit:

Cost of labour:

So anything along those lines would look OK to my untrained eyes, it would be fairly similar for a decorater, i.e.

To supply and paint:
4 cans of Dulux white paint for Main Bedroom

Cost of labour:

mrcheez

Hmm that looks more like an invoice than a receipt I would have thought.

Invoice is saying "here's the price for the job, please pay"

Receipt says "payment received"



Anyway I've since asked for the following which I assume is not being unreasonable...

A physical piece of paper with the following details:

- Full Name
- Business Address
- Phone number
- Job description
- Cost
- Acknowledgement of payment received in full and Date payment received
- Signature

WildCardDoW

Yeah, sorry didn't realise you were looking for a receipt not an invoice, not sure if that is common to be honest? My dad would do a lot of work for company buildings and premises and I've never had to help him out with that. He does use a few different accounting type programs though that I've made sure not to get any experience in! Ha

Mountjoy Mugger

I'd reply back and ask him to confirm there's no outstanding balance. That should suffice.