Social welfare

thomas83

Hi I'm posting this to see if anybody else is as annoyed as I am

In May just gone I applied for the polling clerk position for the local elections which I got

I received 266 euro nett for the days work,, but the thing is the social welfare are now telling me they are stopping a full weeks pay because of one days work..

I think this is a crazy system

mrsbyrne

Your on the dole which means you need financial help to live from week to week. As far as SW are concerned you didn't need financial help that week cos you got well paid for one days work.

thomas83

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Your on the dole which means you need financial help to live from week to week. As far as SW are concerned you didn't need financial help that week cos you got well paid for one days work.

Yes I understand that but the problem is they paid me 188 for that week which now Iv to pay back so my days work works out at 85 euro..

There is no logic in it

mrsbyrne

But surely you knew you couldn't have 188+266=454 for one days work,188 in state aid!? That definitely wouldn't make any sense!

Red Nissan

Social Welfare will want EVERY PENNY you earn paid back, you will have NOTHING for your day's work. NOTHING AT ALL. So it's a total waste of time doing any work whatsoever. PERIOD.

Job seekers allow €60 a week and no payback on that over three days. Anything over that or over less than three days will be clawed back at 60% of your total earnings.

thomas83

mrsbyrne wrote: »

But surely you knew you couldn't have 188+266=454 for one days work,188 in state aid!? That definitely wouldn't make any sense!

No of course I didn't want 188+266 I'm not a greedy person... I expected them to deduct one days social welfare payment because I worked on that day..
Not the full week

To me that would make sense????

tenifan

thomas83 wrote: »

Yes I understand that but the problem is they paid me 188 for that week which now Iv to pay back so my days work works out at 85 euro..

There is no logic in it

Sure there is. The social welfare system is a safety net. If you don't have money, they give you money. When you earn your own money, they don't give you money.

At the end of that week, you were €85 better off for working than had you not worked. Seems logical to me..

Or do you really think you deserved €454 for working just one day?

MadDog76

thomas83 wrote: »

No of course I didn't want 188+266 I'm not a greedy person... I expected them to deduct one days social welfare payment because I worked on that day..
Not the full week

To me that would make sense????

It's not about how long it took you to earn the money, it's the amount of money you earned ........... personally I believe they should have taken the full 266 euros off you .......... doesn't it feel better to have actually earned that money anyway??? Btw a lot of people working full-time don't even earn 85 euros per day so count yourself lucky with what you got.

Red Nissan

MadDog76 wrote: »

........... personally I believe they should have taken the full 266 euros off you .......... .

It's nothing personal, they WILL. He'll find the balance stopped next week.

mrsbyrne

Red Nissan wrote: »

Social Welfare will want EVERY PENNY you earn paid back, you will have NOTHING for your day's work. NOTHING AT ALL. So it's a total waste of time doing any work whatsoever. PERIOD.

Job seekers allow €60 a week and no payback on that over three days. Anything over that or over less than three days will be clawed back at 60% of your total earnings.

This completely wrong. Sw take your SW entitlement they look at your weeks earnings from work, allow €20 per day up to a max of 3 days they then consider 60% of that figure. Subtract that figure from your regular SW payment and that figure is your revised payment for that week.

mrsbyrne

Red Nissan wrote: »

It's nothing personal, they WILL. He'll find the balance stopped next week.

Wrong.

MadDog76

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Wrong.

But he should be right ...........

Red Nissan

mrsbyrne wrote: »

This completely wrong. Sw take your SW entitlement they look at your weeks earnings from work, allow €20 per day up to a max of 3 days they then consider 60% of that figure. Subtract that figure from your regular SW payment and that figure is your revised payment for that week.

What you describe is for Job Seeker Allowance from the Labour Exchange.

Social Welfare allow you to earn NOTHING.

Now, that said, each officer has discretion and she may make an extra payment to you for set reasons, but the rule is clear and I have it in black n white because I had to see a judge about another matter.

happywithlife

I thought you'd just be deducted one days allowance too - maybe it depends on which payment you're getting - is it job seekers allowance or job seekers benefit?
I know with JSBenefit my husband works a three week off season at work and gets his JSBenefit minus three days allowance
Ask to speak to your deciding officer to see if they can clarify things

Red Nissan

MadDog76 wrote: »

But he should be right ...........

It's an eye opener, I fell headlong into this trap too, I too assumed one could earn about €100 a week ~ one can, but not on Social Welfare.

The officer in particular may simply not collect the payment and forget about it, that will be fine until the supervisor sees the case in two years time and she may then instruct the recovery of the overpayment.

A new case of hardship can be then made by the applicant and this will usually be accepted in the applicant's favour, like stopping a €1 a week.

mrsbyrne

Red Nissan wrote: »

What you describe is for Job Seeker Allowance from the Labour Exchange.

Social Welfare allow you to earn NOTHING.

Now, that said, each officer has discretion and she may make an extra payment to you for set reasons, but the rule is clear and I have it in black n white because I had to see a judge about another matter.

Jobseekers allowance is paid by SW from offices which 20 years ago were referred to as the "labour exchange". Your completey confused.If you can provide me with a link to support your theory I'll read it.

mrsbyrne

happywithlife wrote: »

I thought you'd just be deducted one days allowance too - maybe it depends on which payment you're getting - is it job seekers allowance or job seekers benefit?
I know with JSBenefit my husband works a three week off season at work and gets his JSBenefit minus three days allowance
Ask to speak to your deciding officer to see if they can clarify things

If your on JS Benefit then one days benefit would be deducted from your weeks SW. That's because Benefit is not means tested, its based on PRSI contributions/credits.

MadDog76

I'm all for Social Welfare in theory .......... but I don't think it should be a viable alternative option, I think it should be an individual's only option in order for that individual to receive/want/need payment .......... I just don't get this "sure why should I work, I'd only be comin' out with an extra x amount a week!!" attitude ....... wtf!?!?!?!

The OP seems to be a perfect example of that attitude ......... where's the logic in earning 266 euros for a day's work and yet still feeling entitled to Government (ie OUR) money for that week???????

thomas83

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Jobseekers allowance is paid by SW from offices which 20 years ago were referred to as the "labour exchange". Your completey confused.If you can provide me with a link to support your theory I'll read it.

Are u smoking your underpants??

What are u on about giving you a link to support my theory..

Red Nissan

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Jobseekers allowance is paid by SW from offices which 20 years ago were referred to as the "labour exchange". Your completey confused.If you can provide me with a link to support your theory I'll read it.

Your post show me that you do not understand the difference between Social Welfare and Job Seekers.

Both come under the Department of Social Welfare but Job Seekers from the central Social Services Office runs the local Social Welfare in the various town parish health centres and the Social Welfare Officer who gives you the money, actually gets that from the Central Social Welfare Office [Labour Exchange].

In any dispute it's the Central Office that settles it and INSTRUCTS the local Social Welfare girl to deny or grant payments.

The Social Welfare girl also has a discretionary budget where she can make hardcase payments for any reason under the sun dependent on your case.

Whilst the various offices of social welfare all come under the broad title of Social Welfare, there are different offices with separate budgets.

Essentially we have Social Welfare and Job Seekers.

Job Seekers have more entitlements then Social Welfare recipients.

The Department of Social Services are very well advertised, I'm surprised you're actually asking me for a link?

If you think it's a theory, go on do some work and declare it. I dare you.

thomas83

MadDog76 wrote: »

I'm all for Social Welfare in theory .......... but I don't think it should be a viable alternative option, I think it should be an individual's only option in order for that individual to receive/want/need payment .......... I just don't get this "sure why should I work, I'd only be comin' out with an extra x amount a week!!" attitude ....... wtf!?!?!?!

The OP seems to be a perfect example of that attitude ......... where's the logic in earning 266 euros for a day's work and yet still feeling entitled to Government (ie OUR) money for that week???????

Spare me the tripe your talking... Iv worked since I left school at 17 I'm 31 now and have being out of work for over a year now... And I won't be on the social for to much longer..

mrsbyrne

thomas83 wrote: »

Are u smoking your underpants??

What are u on about giving you a link to support my theory..

This post was not directed at you? Why did you think it was?

thomas83

happywithlife wrote: »

I thought you'd just be deducted one days allowance too - maybe it depends on which payment you're getting - is it job seekers allowance or job seekers benefit?
I know with JSBenefit my husband works a three week off season at work and gets his JSBenefit minus three days allowance
Ask to speak to your deciding officer to see if they can clarify things

So did I tbh but I thought wrong

MadDog76

thomas83 wrote: »

Spare me the tripe your talking... Iv worked since I left school at 17 I'm 31 now and have being out of work for over a year now... And I won't be on the social for to much longer..

That's great .......... so I take it your one of those that hates being "on the dole" and want to earn your own money, right?

Well you should have happily and proudly denied any payment from the Social Welfare that week instead of coming on here complaining that they took back money that you were not entitled to!

You posted on here to get opinions ........ you got 'em ......... just not the opinions you wanted to hear. :rolleyes:

Red Nissan

Social Welfare and I mean Social Welfare is a prison with bars and shackles like any real prison is.

It's the last place anyone wants to be.

The OP fell foul of not understanding the various departments, as did I as a matter of fact, so no fault, but it's a hard lesson.

I agree with the OP, in my case I could get low paying work occasionally and hopefully rise back to full employment, but on Social Welfare this is impossible. One is docked everything. I agree that this is madness.

In my case I'm on reduced Job Seekers and can earn €100 a week to reflect by occasional ability to work. I'm also paying off some €3,000 to the Social Welfare @ €5 off my already reduced Job Seekers.

And I know already that this is going over the heads of a few posters. So this may be my last statement of fact on this thread.

mrsbyrne

Red Nissan wrote: »

Your post show me that you do not understand the difference between Social Welfare and Job Seekers.

Both come under the Department of Social Welfare but Job Seekers from the central Social Services Office runs the local Social Welfare in the various town parish health centres and the Social Welfare Officer who gives you the money, actually gets that from the Central Social Welfare Office [Labour Exchange].

In any dispute it's the Central Office that settles it and INSTRUCTS the local Social Welfare girl to deny or grant payment
The Social Welfare girl also has a discretionary budget where she can make ohardcase payments for any reason under the sun dependent on your case.

Whilst the various offices of social welfare all come under the broad title of Social Welfare, there are different offices with separate budgets.

Essentially we have Social Welfare and Job Seekers.

Job Seekers have more entitlements then Social Welfare recipients.

The Department of Social Services are very well advertised, I'm surprised you're actually asking me for a link?

If you think it's a theory, go on do some work and declare it. I dare you.

This entire post is nonsense and you are completely wrong. This is your version of how the DSP operates and I csn only hope you are not advising anybody who might think that you actually had some accurate knowledge. I'll post you a link regarding basic SW payments and you might read it before you post again.

thomas83

MadDog76 wrote: »

That's great .......... so I take it your one of those that hates being "on the dole" and want to earn your own money, right?

Well you should have happily and proudly denied any payment from the Social Welfare that week instead of coming on here complaining that they took back money that you were not entitled to!

You posted on here to get opinions ........ you got 'em ......... just not the opinions you wanted to hear. :rolleyes:

I took the money because I needed it..

Are u on the dole??

Boskowski

Well I guess the real problem is mindset. SW is supposed to be temporary help for when you can't support yourself.
You don't se to see it that way?

Red Nissan

Boskowski wrote: »

Well I guess the real problem is mindset. SW is supposed to be temporary help for when you can't support yourself.
You don't se to see it that way?

See my post.

thomas83

Red Nissan wrote: »

Social Welfare and I mean Social Welfare is a prison with bars and shackles like any real prison is.

It's the last place anyone wants to be.

The OP fell foul of not understanding the various departments, as did I as a matter of fact, so no fault, but it's a hard lesson.

I agree with the OP, in my case I could get low paying work occasionally and hopefully rise back to full employment, but on Social Welfare this is impossible. One is docked everything. I agree that this is madness.

In my case I'm on reduced Job Seekers and can earn €100 a week to reflect by occasional ability to work. I'm also paying off some €3,000 to the Social Welfare @ €5 off my already reduced Job Seekers.

And I know already that this is going over the heads of a few posters. So this may be my last statement of fact on this thread.

I understand completely what you are saying..some people jump to conclusions straight away..

tenifan

Red Nissan wrote: »

See my post.

We saw it. It's not relevant at all to the thread

mrsbyrne

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_welfare_system_in_ireland.html
Red Nissan you should start here and follow some of the links. A few spoilers, no labour exchange, no "girl" , no department of "social services" and jobseekers allowance turns out to be a SW payment after all.

Red Nissan

thomas83 wrote: »

I took the money because I needed it..

Are u on the dole??

To Be Honest now Tom. What EXACTLY do you mean by dole? I's critical and pivotal and we can turn this thread into a real education experience.

We must refresh our language.

Boskowski

I understand your stance. It's perfectly reasonable to arrive at that viewpoint.

But I can also understand their view which is also a perfectly reasonable one. I guess they don't want to incentivise people topping up SW by little jobbies here and there. They want to incentivise people to get off SW.

Also you'd have people next fudging their job records to claim they made 800 on one day and should still get hardly any SW deduction.

Edit. Sorry I mixed you up with the OP was really talking to him.

cee_jay

things are getting a bit heated in here. Posters should take a step back and stop with the sly digs at each other.

This is not a forum to debate the pros/cons of the social welfare system, it is a forum to get helpful and constructive advice of any personal queries they may have in relation to social welfare.

Next sly dig, or unhelpful post etc will be banned.

thomas83

Red Nissan wrote: »

To Be Honest now Tom. What EXACTLY do you mean by dole? I's critical and pivotal and we can turn this thread into a real education experience.

We must refresh our language.

Unemployment benefit

MadDog76

thomas83 wrote: »

I took the money because I needed it..

Are u on the dole??

Well that's it in a nutshell then isn't it ........ you took the money because you needed it not because you were entitled to it .......... you found out that you can't do that and were forced to pay it back and now you want people on here tell you that you're right and the Department of Social Welfare are wrong???

Imagine we all took things that don't belong to us just because we need them ..........

Cushie Butterfield

It seems there is a bit of confusion between Jobseeker's Benefit (non-means tested based on PRSI contributions), Jobseeker's Allowance (means tested not based on PRSI contributions) & Supplementary Welfare Allowance (means tested allowances such as weekly Supplementary Welfare Allowance, Rent Supplement, Mortgage Interest Supplement, Diet and Heating Supplements, Back to School Clothing and Footwear Scheme and exceptional needs payments for items such as buggies, clothing, funeral costs etc. going on here.

If the OP was on Jobseeker's Benefit he would only have been stopped one day's jobseeker's benefit, but seeing that he is on a means tested jobseekers allowance his means for that week is taken into account instead of a deduction of one day's benefit.

Both Jobeeker's payments are administered by Dept Social Protection (formally Dept Social Welfare) in social welfare local offices which used to be called labour exchanges.


Supplementary Welfare is a completely different payment & are provided by Department of Social Protection's representative [formally Community Welfare Officers (CWOs)]. This service used to be provided by the HSE, but is now part of the Department of Social Protection. Community Welfare Officers now work for the Department of Social Protection but provide clinics from HSE health centres and also operate from Dept Social Protection Local Offices.

It's not surprising that people get confused, especially now with the CWO's now working for DSP. It's also a fact that quite a lot of people don't understand the entire system as they don't really need to unless they need to use it.

mrsbyrne

thomas83 wrote: »

Unemployment benefit

UB used to be called "drawing my stamps". Still is called that fairly regularly by people+40. Now called Jobseekers Benefit.
Jobseekers Allowance used to be "the dole" . Still is for some folks +45.

thomas83

MadDog76 wrote: »

Well that's it in a nutshell then isn't it ........ you took the money because you needed it not because you were entitled to it .......... you found out that you can't do that and were forced to pay it back and now you want people on here tell you that you're right and the Department of Social Welfare are wrong???

Imagine we all took things that don't belong to us just because we need them ..........

Yes I collected my payment on a Tuesday,, got a call on the Wednesday to say somebody had dropped off the list would I be interested in doing the polling clerk on that Friday which I accepted..

My point is I wasn't expecting to pay back the full 188 because of one days work...

MadDog76

thomas83 wrote: »

Yes I collected my payment on a Tuesday,, got a call on the Wednesday to say somebody had dropped off the list would I be interested in doing the polling clerk on that Friday which I accepted..

My point is I wasn't expecting to pay back the full 188 because of one days work...

Why?

Red Nissan

MadDog76 wrote: »

[/B] Why?

He might have a point, I'm not adding more, but we are clear now, he is on Benefit, certain allowance apply to this situation.

I'd look for a reassessment or clarification on his issue as I can now see his point clearly but am not familiar with this exact situation.

I now think he has a case.

BTW, the word Dole is no longer applicable, and I know you did not mention it. But for clarification it is important with all the changes, I'm in the system just two years and still had baggage from my youth. :P

mrsbyrne

Red Nissan wrote: »

He might have a point, I'm not adding more, but we are clear now, he is on Benefit, certain allowance apply to this situation.

I'd look for a reassessment or clarification on his issue as I can now see his point clearly but am not familiar with this exact situation.

I now think he has a case.

BTW, the word Dole is no longer applicable, and I know you did not mention it. But for clarification it is important with all the changes, I'm in the system just two years and still had baggage from my youth. :P

He's not on benefit he's on allowance.

Cushie Butterfield

MadDog76 wrote: »

[/B]

Why?

I can understand perfectly why the OP thought that. He paid into the social insurance fund, which gave him the entitlement to Jobseeker's Benefit, as his Pay Related Social Insurance contributions (stamps) covered him. It must be the case that his PRSI entitlement ran out & he then transferred to a means tested Jobseeker's Allowance payment. (I hope I'm not wrong in thinking that this is the case :eek:) He is now being paid out of the social assistance fund, so is now subject to the criteria & rules that govern payment from that fund.

We have to remember that for people that have worked all their lives & suddenly become unemployed that it's not all that peculiar not to be up to speed with the difference between the two payments, especially when they have paid PRSI for years & you have never had to worry about social welfare entitlements, prsi related payments, means tests etc. It all new to someone in that position. In some cases, if you are only entitled to a reduced rate of Jobseeker's Benefit you may be better off on Jobseeker's Allowance, which is also confusing.

Sometimes mistakes are made by DSP so there's no harm in asking imo.

eastbono

My understanding is the OP did one days work and his is on jobseekers allowance payment of €188 with nil means decision. It was a once off one days work. His sw office decided not to pay him for the week... this is totally incorrect. At worst they should have assessed his means for the day and he should still have received €41 approx for the week. What would normally happen in this once off situation is that they would just deduct one days social welfare.

NB I refuse to get into any argument with anyone who has posted so far or wishes to comment on this post. I am stating the facts.

Red Nissan

eastbono wrote: »

My understanding is the OP did one days work and his is on jobseekers allowance payment of €188 with nil means decision. It was a once off one days work. His sw office decided not to pay him for the week... this is totally incorrect. At worst they should have assessed his means for the day and he should still have received €41 approx for the week. What would normally happen in this once off situation is that they would just deduct one days social welfare.

NB I refuse to get into any argument with anyone who has posted so far or wishes to comment on this post. I am stating the facts.

According to the OP it's Benefit. BUT I think you are still correct, BUT, I don't know.

eastbono

Red Nissan wrote: »

According to the OP it's Benefit. BUT I think you are still correct, BUT, I don't know.

Well if OP is on benefit and works one day then only one days sw should be deducted. No need for means testing. OP needs to appeal this decision. And I can guarantee 99% almost 100% that I am correct.

happywithlife

thomas83 wrote: »

Spare me the tripe your talking... Iv worked since I left school at 17 I'm 31 now and have being out of work for over a year now... And I won't be on the social for to much longer..

As op is out of work "for over a year now" I presume he is on job seekers Allowance

Not sure what the criteria are re casual work and jsa

Red Nissan

happywithlife wrote: »

As op is out of work "for over a year now" I presume he is on job seekers Allowance

Not sure what the criteria are re casual work and jsa

Possibly, but he says he's on Benefit. He also says he's on the dole which is allowance, so? Good Question.

MadDog76

Does it really matter which particular form of Welfare payment he's on???

Getting back to basic logic ......... he is receiving 188 euros per week from the "Welfare" which he is fully entitled to do and I'm proud of the fact that Ireland does have a Welfare System in place ......... however I believe it should only be used by those who have no (for whatever valid reason) other sources of income.
If, as in this case, an individual receives an alternative once-off source of income then obviously that income amount should absolutely be deducted from the Welfare payment he/she normally receives .......... there's nothing that complicated about if you don't get hung-up on "which department pays you?" or "what kind of allowance are you on?" or "I think you're entitled to ....." etc. None of that really matters tbh

Cushie Butterfield

MadDog76 wrote: »

Does it really matter which particular form of Welfare payment he's on???

Getting back to basic logic ......... he is receiving 188 euros per week from the "Welfare" which he is fully entitled to do and I'm proud of the fact that Ireland does have a Welfare System in place ......... however I believe it should only be used by those who have no (for whatever valid reason) other sources of income.
If, as in this case, an individual receives an alternative once-off source of income then obviously that income amount should absolutely be deducted from the Welfare payment he/she normally receives .......... there's nothing that complicated about if you don't get hung-up on "which department pays you?" or "what kind of allowance are you on?" or "I think you're entitled to ....." etc. None of that really matters tbh

Yes, it matters because not only has the employee paid into the insurance fund that a DSP benefit payment comes from, but the employer has also paid into it on their behalf in direct correlation with the employee's contribution. Jobseeker's Benefit is only paid for a limited amount of months (maximum nine). 'Welfare' just happen to administer & pay out of that insurance fund.

A means tested allowance is a completely different kettle of fish, & is paid out of a completely different fund.