Automatic transmission fluid.

tom_tarbucket

Hello All

I have a 2006 523i Saloon automatic. it has the N52 6 cylinder engine. 60,000 miles on the clock, 8 services done, well looked after.


Just wondering, should the automatic transmission fluid be changed in this car at a certain mileage ?

Or is it sealed for life ?

If it has to be changed, what is the recommended mileage and how much is the total cost roughly to do it ?

YbFocus

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Hello All

I have a 2006 523i Saloon automatic. it has the N52 6 cylinder engine. 60,000 miles on the clock, 8 services done, well looked after.


Just wondering, should the automatic transmission fluid be changed in this car at a certain mileage ?

Or is it sealed for life ?

If it has to be changed, what is the recommended mileage and how much is the total cost roughly to do it ?

Hey Tom,

They are supposed to be a life sealed unit but they can be refilled.
Will always be a good thing to do at 8 years old and 60k.
Not sure on price though, If you were to do it yourself it'd be 20-30 euro ish.

George Dalton

YbFocus wrote: »

Hey Tom,

They are supposed to be a life sealed unit but they can be refilled.
Will always be a good thing to do at 8 years old and 60k.
Not sure on price though, If you were to do it yourself it'd be 20-30 euro ish.

Where are you going to get the correct fluid for an E60 for €20-30?

It will cost a lot more than that I'm afraid....

porsche boy

is there a dip stick visable or will you have to drain and refill X litres to know it's right??
and I'd be dubious about the cheap price suggested too.

YbFocus

George Dalton wrote: »

Where are you going to get the correct fluid for an E60 for €20-30?

It will cost a lot more than that I'm afraid....

I would have thought that atf was atf George, I don't question you for a min though.
Kind of happy I never got around to doing it myself so

tom_tarbucket

porsche boy wrote: »

is there a dip stick visable or will you have to drain and refill X litres to know it's right??
and I'd be dubious about the cheap price suggested too.

I don't know to be honest, I don't know what's involved or how complicated of a job it is .

YbFocus

porsche boy wrote: »

is there a dip stick visable or will you have to drain and refill X litres to know it's right??
and I'd be dubious about the cheap price suggested too.

There is no dipstick etc but you can get the capacity online and fill to that level. Usually in gearboxes the fill level is controlled by the input hole so you can't put more than you're allowed to in it anyways.
Again maybe that's different on bloody bmw's.

JC01

Never done it on an e60 but most gearboxes have a bolt you open on the side of the casing. Full through this hole until fluid starts leaking back out at you. Replace bolt with a new o-ring/ copper washer and job done.

Someone may be along to tell me I'm completly wrong though :L

tom_tarbucket

JC01 wrote: »

Never done it on an e60 but most gearboxes have a bolt you open on the side of the casing. Full through this hole until fluid starts leaking back out at you. Replace bolt with a new o-ring/ copper washer and job done.

Someone may be along to tell me I'm completly wrong though :L

Silly q, is this normally done from under the car or inside the car or somewhere else ? Like does much messing around have to be done normally to access this fluid

George Dalton

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Hello All

I have a 2006 523i Saloon automatic. it has the N52 6 cylinder engine. 60,000 miles on the clock, 8 services done, well looked after.


Just wondering, should the automatic transmission fluid be changed in this car at a certain mileage ?

Or is it sealed for life ?

If it has to be changed, what is the recommended mileage and how much is the total cost roughly to do it ?

They are supposed to be sealed for life but a fluid and filter change is definitely a good idea.

Cost will depend on where you go but it will be €200 minimum really. Fluid and filter alone will set you back at least €150.

JC01

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Silly q, is this normally done from under the car or inside the car or somewhere else ? Like does much messing around have to be done normally to access this fluid

With RWD cars it'd be from underneath. And generally no it's simple but as I said I havnt done it on an e60 so god knows there could be looms/exhaust etc in the way. There will almost definatly be a splash gaurd to remove from under the box anyways.

corkgsxr

YbFocus wrote: »

I would have thought that atf was atf George, I don't question you for a min though.
Kind of happy I never got around to doing it myself so

Nope a lot of modern stuff use a very thin oil for mpg but is a very sophisticated oil to do the job.

Eg the 1.6psa gearbox the oil is 60-70 Euro and there's only 2-3 litres.



All oils break down and get contaminated regardless of what there in. A lot of gearboxes fail because life sealed / not on the servise plan And oil goes low.

I'd do it every few years

R.O.R

I checked pricing for getting this done on my car and was told by our indy that the BMW ATF is €45 a litre, and it's 9 litres, so looking at roughly €500 including labour. Decided to stick with the occasional notchy changes (E60 520d Auto).

We did send a customers car (E61 520d Auto) in for ATF change. Our guys (Main dealer but not BMW) wouldn't touch it, and sent it to the BMW dealer.

Official BMW ATF change is to drain all fluid and re-fill. Drive for 20km's or so, then drain again and re-fill. Cost about €1,300 + VAT in the main dealer, and included a software update. According to the driver, it has solved his notchy change issue.

tom_tarbucket

R.O.R wrote: »

I checked pricing for getting this done on my car and was told by our indy that the BMW ATF is €45 a litre, and it's 9 litres, so looking at roughly €500 including labour. Decided to stick with the occasional notchy changes (E60 520d Auto).

We did send a customers car (E61 520d Auto) in for ATF change. Our guys (Main dealer but not BMW) wouldn't touch it, and sent it to the BMW dealer.

Official BMW ATF change is to drain all fluid and re-fill. Drive for 20km's or so, then drain again and re-fill. Cost about €1,300 + VAT in the main dealer, and included a software update. According to the driver, it has solved his notchy change issue.

jesus christ, them prices are saucy. From what your saying the BMW way is to buy 18 feckin litres of the stuff !!!

big change from the 20 - 30 € estimate ( sorry YBfocus )

Is there any way to tell / test if a car actually needs the ATF changed ?

Guy:Incognito

Sealedbfor life should be taken as the life of a standard warranty imo ( 3 years or 5 at a push)

Oil degrades. If a company said the engine was sealed for life how many people would advocate leaving the same oil in it for 10 years?

YbFocus

Ah well I was only 6000% out
Gone are the old days! Gone are the days also where I'm going to change my gearbox oil at that rate!

fmcg_scribe

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Hello All

I have a 2006 523i Saloon automatic. it has the N52 6 cylinder engine. 60,000 miles on the clock, 8 services done, well looked after.


Just wondering, should the automatic transmission fluid be changed in this car at a certain mileage ?

Or is it sealed for life ?

If it has to be changed, what is the recommended mileage and how much is the total cost roughly to do it ?

60,000 miles seems like low mileage to be worrying about this issue. As you will have already noted in this thread, there has been a debate for some time about the "sealed for life" issue with BMW auto boxes.

That said, there may be value in getting a competent mechanic to check the ATF level of your car's transmission. If the level is too low because of a leak due to a worn or defective seal, you might start to see problems.

Your car's manual should tell you how much ATF is required. Failing that, this BMW VIN decoder will tell you: http://www.bmw-z1.com/VIN/VINdecode-e.cgi

Voodoomelon

BMW don't print automatic transmission fluid capacities in their manuals, as they don't (or didn't) want you changing it.

ZF themselves say to change the fluid every 50k miles, which is the only thing that matters. If you plan on keeping the car, i'd change it. If not, it's an unnecessary cost.

You have the ZF 6HP19 most likely, which holds 9.5 litres. It must be drained and then refilled at a fluid temperature of 35-40°C, which can be achieved using a simple laser thermometer. Draining the fluid only expels about 5-6 litres as the remaining fluid is held in the torque converter and not in the pan.

So you can drain the fluid and then top up, and then do the same again in another few days after driving to get approx 75%+ new fluid.
I did the job on my last BMW in my own driveway, so it's doable with basic tools and half an afternoon. It's also nerve-wracking though as you have to refill when under the car, with the car running.

Here's the spec of your transmission:

http://www.zf.com/media/media/document/int_print_catalogs_documents/usa_4/6HP_19-21_Catalog.pdf

In terms of cost, you can get full fluid, pan, gasket and filter kits for about €250 delivered, see here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-Gearbox-Filter-Kit-BMW-E60-5-Series-GA6HP19Z-Gearbox-Meyle-24152333907-/371131645345?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item56692b7da1

Any mechanic with a lift should be able to do it in about an hour, but many probably won't want to due to the taboo that still seems to surround older BMW autoboxes and whether they should be serviced or not.

All in you should be able to do it for considerably less than €400, parts supplied to a mechanic.

fmcg_scribe

Voodoomelon wrote: »

BMW don't print automatic transmission fluid capacities in their manuals, as they don't (or didn't) want you changing it.

ZF themselves say to change the fluid every 50k miles, which is the only thing that matters. If you plan on keeping the car, i'd change it. If not, it's an unnecessary cost.

You have the ZF 6HP19 most likely, which holds 9.5 litres. It must be drained and then refilled at a fluid temperature of 35-40°C, which can be achieved using a simple laser thermometer. Draining the fluid only expels about 5-6 litres as the remaining fluid is held in the torque converter and not in the pan.

So you can drain the fluid and then top up, and then do the same again in another few days after driving to get approx 75%+ new fluid.
I did the job on my last BMW in my own driveway, so it's doable with basic tools and half an afternoon. It's also nerve-wracking though as you have to refill when under the car, with the car running.

Here's the spec of your transmission:

http://www.zf.com/media/media/document/int_print_catalogs_documents/usa_4/6HP_19-21_Catalog.pdf

In terms of cost, you can get full fluid, pan, gasket and filter kits for about €250 delivered, see here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-Gearbox-Filter-Kit-BMW-E60-5-Series-GA6HP19Z-Gearbox-Meyle-24152333907-/371131645345?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item56692b7da1

Any mechanic with a lift should be able to do it in about an hour, but many probably won't want to due to the taboo that still seems to surround older BMW autoboxes and whether they should be serviced or not.

All in you should be able to do it for considerably less than €400, parts supplied to a mechanic.

Clearly, you are comfortable doing this sort of DIY car maintenance. However, tackling anything to do with an automatic transmission is not for the faint hearted.

There are reasons why gear box repairs is a specialist/niche area in the motor trade, and deep knowledge of and experience with gear boxes is important.

Unless, a car owner already has extensive experience of servicing their own car and doing maintenance work more complex than simply changing light bulbs, topping up screenwash, or changing wipers, I would counsel an owner tackling the changing of an auto box's ATF - better to leave it to a specialist.

tom_tarbucket

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Clearly, you are comfortable doing this sort of DIY car maintenance. However, tackling anything to do with an automatic transmission is not for the faint hearted.

There are reasons why gear box repairs is a specialist/niche area in the motor trade, and deep knowledge of and experience with gear boxes is important.

Unless, a car owner already has extensive experience of servicing their own car and doing maintenance work more complex than simply changing light bulbs, topping up screenwash, or changing wipers, I would counsel an owner tackling the changing of an auto box's ATF - better to leave it to a specialist.

yeah, to be honest, I think I will leave it to the experts

Still even undecided if im going to do it yet

Voodoomelon

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Clearly, you are comfortable doing this sort of DIY car maintenance. However, tackling anything to do with an automatic transmission is not for the faint hearted.

There are reasons why gear box repairs is a specialist/niche area in the motor trade, and deep knowledge of and experience with gear boxes is important.

Unless, a car owner already has extensive experience of servicing their own car and doing maintenance work more complex than simply changing light bulbs, topping up screenwash, or changing wipers, I would counsel an owner tackling the changing of an auto box's ATF - better to leave it to a specialist.

I'd agree, if you don't work on your car i'd stay well away. But I wouldn't let any mechanic scare you away from doing it, is a basic-intermediate service job.

visual

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Clearly, you are comfortable doing this sort of DIY car maintenance. However, tackling anything to do with an automatic transmission is not for the faint hearted.

There are reasons why gear box repairs is a specialist/niche area in the motor trade, and deep knowledge of and experience with gear boxes is important.

Unless, a car owner already has extensive experience of servicing their own car and doing maintenance work more complex than simply changing light bulbs, topping up screenwash, or changing wipers, I would counsel an owner tackling the changing of an auto box's ATF - better to leave it to a specialist.

done transmission fluid change on a jeep wouldn't trust a mechanic as I wanted it done right.

It was a bit daunting before I started but after I got stuck in it was simple basic DIY you know its done right. Took me a morning and it was messy but very doable for any amateur DIYer
the import part was making sure the correct amount of fluid was used. As over filling is as bad as under filling

fmcg_scribe

visual wrote: »

done transmission fluid change on a jeep wouldn't trust a mechanic as I wanted it done right.

It was a bit daunting before I started but after I got stuck in it was simple basic DIY you know its done right. Took me a morning and it was messy but very doable for any amateur DIYer
the import part was making sure the correct amount of fluid was used. As over filling is as bad as under filling

Good for you. I agree that some mechanics could not be trusted with this sort of work. It seems that nowadays very few mechanics get any exposure to gear box repairs because most garages seem to outsource the work to gear box specialists. That said, I still maintain that changing ATF is not for the faint hearted and there can be far reaching consequences if you tackle it yourself and cock it up.

R.O.R

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I'd agree, if you don't work on your car i'd stay well away. But I wouldn't let any mechanic scare you away from doing it, is a basic-intermediate service job.

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Good for you. I agree that some mechanics could not be trusted with this sort of work. It seems that nowadays very few mechanics get any exposure to gear box repairs because most garages seem to outsource the work to gear box specialists. That said, I still maintain that changing ATF is not for the faint hearted and there can be far reaching consequences if you tackle it yourself and cock it up.

I totally agree, and that's why our guys turned the work down. If not done correctly, and it fecks the box up completely, you'd be looking at bills running to thousands. If left to BMW and they make a mess, it's up to them to fix / replace the box - and that's why the one we got done went to BMW for the work.

dantastic

Sealed for life and maintenance free are the biggest lies cooked up by marketing people. Like already pointed out, life is only the life of the oil. Any garage in their right mind should refuse to change ATF in a box with more than 100kkm on it. The detergents in the oil are long gone and deposits of broken down clutch have been built up in the gearbox. When you put in new oil the detergents will dislodge the deposits and you will clog the governor in 2-3 weeks. The customer comes back thinking you broke his gearbox when it was actually killed by belated maintenance.

If (when) this happens there's really no point trying to change the oil, the problem will never stop. Either get a new (old) gearbox or strip out the old one and clean it out properly.

This is true at least for ZF boxes but I'm sure this holds true for autos in general.

If you have a new enough auto make sure to change oil within the recommended mileage of the oil - not some marketing blurb.

deandean

OP if you're in Dublin I'd recommend Automatic Transmissions Limited which is off Clonliffe Road, near Croke Park.

They did the auto trans in an E39 for me a while back and by golly do they know their stuff. They might even have your pan, filter & fluid in stock.

I looked at doing the job myself but I was glad I gave it to them when I saw what was involved (hoist, ATF pump etc).

I retained the old filter and opened it for the craic, at 100K miles the filter was about 1/3 blocked.

tom_tarbucket

deandean wrote: »

OP if you're in Dublin I'd recommend Automatic Transmissions Limited which is off Clonliffe Road, near Croke Park.

They did the auto trans in an E39 for me a while back and by golly do they know their stuff. They might even have your pan, filter & fluid in stock.

I looked at doing the job myself but I was glad I gave it to them when I saw what was involved (hoist, ATF pump etc).

I retained the old filter and opened it for the craic, at 100K miles the filter was about 1/3 blocked.

Thanks, how much did it cost ?

tom_tarbucket

dantastic wrote: »

Sealed for life and maintenance free are the biggest lies cooked up by marketing people. Like already pointed out, life is only the life of the oil. Any garage in their right mind should refuse to change ATF in a box with more than 100kkm on it. The detergents in the oil are long gone and deposits of broken down clutch have been built up in the gearbox. When you put in new oil the detergents will dislodge the deposits and you will clog the governor in 2-3 weeks. The customer comes back thinking you broke his gearbox when it was actually killed by belated maintenance.

If (when) this happens there's really no point trying to change the oil, the problem will never stop. Either get a new (old) gearbox or strip out the old one and clean it out properly.

This is true at least for ZF boxes but I'm sure this holds true for autos in general.

If you have a new enough auto make sure to change oil within the recommended mileage of the oil - not some marketing blurb.

OP here. ok, but for a car like mine, I still dont know the answer to this, could be 3 years, could be 5 years, could be 40,00 miles, could be 60,000 miles, I don't know the answer to this yet as there does not seem to be a definitive answer .

tom_tarbucket

duplicate, ignore this

deandean

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Thanks, how much did it cost ?

It was the best part of 200 Euro. The fluid is expensive.
I think the filter for the E60 costs a good bit more than for the E39.

Voodoomelon

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

OP here. ok, but for a car like mine, I still dont know the answer to this, could be 3 years, could be 5 years, could be 40,00 miles, could be 60,000 miles, I don't know the answer to this yet as there does not seem to be a definitive answer .

A member of bimmerforums got his 7 Series ZF gearbox serviced by ZF themselves in Germany. They told him that the service interval is 50,000 miles. If you plan to keep the car, i'd get it done.

tom_tarbucket

Voodoomelon wrote: »

A member of bimmerforums got his 7 Series ZF gearbox serviced by ZF themselves in Germany. They told him that the service interval is 50,000 miles. If you plan to keep the car, i'd get it done.

thanks.

ignorance here, but I presume ZF is the company that manufactures the gear boxes for BMW ?

fmcg_scribe

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

thanks.

ignorance here, but I presume ZF is the company that manufactures the gear boxes for BMW ?

ZF Getrag is the main player in the market: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getrag

BMW is one of many car makers that use Getrag transmissions.