Raw Milk

buttercups88

would anyone be able to help?

ABlur

The lady who runs this market in Glasnevin should be able to help:


Honest to goodness (H2G)

http://www.honest2goodness.ie/the-market.aspx

stanflt

Are you looking for many litres

cant touchthis

Is it safe to drink that?

farmersfriend

cant touchthis wrote: »

Is it safe to drink that?

Drink it here all the time from our own cows. dislike the taste of shop milk. Never done us any harm!

sheebadog

cant touchthis wrote: »

Is it safe to drink that?

Fresh milk is not available in the shops here. Constant stream of the locals call daily for their milk. They don't want it pasteurised or homogenised!!

td5man

cant touchthis wrote: »

Is it safe to drink that?

Does milk come from a cow??? :-))

buttercups88

stanflt wrote: »

Are you looking for many litres

Not much just a couple of litres a week depending where it is

cant touchthis

Think it was an ep of nationwide that went on alot about possibility of catching TB from it. Antibiotic resistance the way it is...bit iffy.

ganmo

take a trip out st margrets and follow a tanker and it'll bring ya to a yard

farmersfriend

cant touchthis wrote: »

Think it was an ep of nationwide that went on alot about possibility of catching TB from it. Antibiotic resistance the way it is...bit iffy.

Cows are tested for tb. milk treated wit antibiotics is not sent to creamery

yellow50HX

cant touchthis wrote: »

Is it safe to drink that?

Can't believe you just asked that. Of course it's safe what have people been drinking from the cow for centuries. It just dosent last as long as the stuff from the store.

frazzledhome

I'm bringing it from a boy, oh damn that's what's wrong?

Greenmachine

thought it was illegal to commercially sell unpasturized milk.

Genghis Cant

Greenmachine wrote: »

thought it was illegal to commercially sell unpasturized milk.

I'd say you're right, only nobody mentioned selling it!

joejobrien

Greenmachine wrote: »

thought it was illegal to commercially sell unpasturized milk.

you thought wrong. It is legal but u have to jump thro some amount of hoops to get a license and two tb test/yr and should you go down you loose all ur markets immediately after investing in them, so u see my point, no one would invest in a business that is small , and voliliate and loose ur business overnight and this prevent one to signing a contract. effectively they allow it but put a stone wall in ur way:mad:

Greenmachine

joejobrien wrote: »

you thought wrong. It is legal but u have to jump thro some amount of hoops to get a license and two tb test/yr and should you go down you loose all ur markets immediately after investing in them, so u see my point, no one would invest in a business that is small , and voliliate and loose ur business overnight and this prevent one to signing a contract. effectively they allow it but put a stone wall in ur way:mad:

A family member in Donegal who buy milk straight off a farmer mentioned it. Said they preferred it the unpasturised stuff, but that they weren't supposed to be able to buy it. It was supposed to be a little qt.

The man in red and black

It's not just TB you should worry about. There's a whole raft of pathogenic bacteria that have been found in raw milk, E. coli, Salmonella, Campylobacter would be some of the more serious ones.

Having grown up drinking unpasteurised milk but having now thought alot about the risks involved I wouldn't feed it to my family now. The risks may be small but they are real and I'd rather not take them. If you want to feed raw milk to your family go ahead but be sure to be informed about what you're getting into.

I think the poster above mentioning antibiotic resistance was referring to antibiotic resistant strains of TB not necessarily antibiotics in milk. Basically saying that if you did catch TB these days it may be incurable.

Rovi

My siblings and I were reared on raw unpasturised milk, and we're all fine healthy strapping lumps

However, we're now over 20 years out of milk production, and I find it to be very strong when I get a taste these days.

On the pathogens thing, I've heard a theory that drinking your own home produced raw milk is a bit like drinking untreated water from your own well.
You were born and reared in the environment of your home place, with all its own biological and environmental challenges, and you have developed (and acquired, through your own mother's milk) a good degree of immunity to whatever challenges are present.
It's the same thing as the locals in underdeveloped parts of the world being able to drink the local tap/river/lake water in some level of safety, but it being a very bad idea for non-locals to do so.

grazeaway

Rovi wrote: »

My siblings and I were reared on raw unpasturised milk, and we're all fine healthy strapping lumps

However, we're now over 20 years out of milk production, and I find it to be very strong when I get a taste these days.

On the pathogens thing, I've heard a theory that drinking your own home produced raw milk is a bit like drinking untreated water from your own well.
You were born and reared in the environment of your home place, with all its own biological and environmental challenges, and you have developed (and acquired, through your own mother's milk) a good degree of immunity to whatever challenges are present.
It's the same thing as the locals in underdeveloped parts of the world being able to drink the local tap/river/lake water in some level of safety, but it being a very bad idea for non-locals to do so.

I reckon your spot in there, and there might be a factor in using your home milk. Was raised on a dairy farm and there are plenty of there still round here. In fact it wasn't until I went visiting family in the city that I would use milk from a carton. Been out of dairy for over 10 years now but have been to relatives that still have own from time to time and can really notice the difference.

She who must be obeyed was also brought up on a dairy farm and they drank milk from their own cows too. What she did notice was that whe she moved out in her early 20's and started buying it in stores that her lactose tolerance wasn't the same. She dosent use much milk nowadays as she can get sick from it. Her sister is the exact same and can only use lactose free milk.

Genghis Cant

At this point, until the OP returns to the thread, we don't know if the milk is for drinking straight or if if it's goin to be processed further.

RightTurnClyde

grazeaway wrote: »

She who must be obeyed was also brought up on a dairy farm and they drank milk from their own cows too. What she did notice was that whe she moved out in her early 20's and started buying it in stores that her lactose tolerance wasn't the same. She dosent use much milk nowadays as she can get sick from it. Her sister is the exact same and can only use lactose free milk.

I remember reading a study somewhere that, a lot of people that are lactose intolerant can drink "raw" milk with no problems.
On the taste, we used to have a lot of foreign students staying with us for a few years. All of them especially the Germans used to go crazy for the raw milk. One of them, out and out city girl, used come up on the weekends to help with the milking. Anytime she was up she'd knock back a mug of warm milk after milking. Loved it.
Needless to say, every student used leave about a stone heavier after living with us for a year. Warmed them up a bit.!

grazeaway

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

I remember reading a study somewhere that, a lot of people that are lactose intolerant can drink "raw" milk with no problems.
On the taste, we used to have a lot of foreign students staying with us for a few years. All of them especially the Germans used to go crazy for the raw milk. One of them, out and out city girl, used come up on the weekends to help with the milking. Anytime she was up she'd knock back a mug of warm milk after milking. Loved it.
Needless to say, every student used leave about a stone heavier after living with us for a year. Warmed them up a bit.!

That was my problem too.:D:D

Spotted something when I was holland a few years ago. Some of the local dairys were offering a premium on grazed milk to be used for bottling. I asked the local dairy lad about it and he said it was down to taste and many of thedIry herds were zero grazed on maize the grass fed cows had nicer milk. After living I the states and drinking milk there I Reckon he is right.

J.O. Farmer

With regards to pathogens in the milk if proper hygiene is practiced in milking the cow and providing the cow hasn't gotten mastitis there should be little to no bacteria in the milk and certainly not E . coli.
With antibiotic resistance I really don't see the problem. If proper withdrawal periods are observed there will be none in the milk. As for antibiotic resistant TB has there ever been a case antibiotic resistance in bovine tb transmitted to humans and the antibiotic resistance attributed to standard animal treatment for say mastitis.
I would also think that the chances of contracting tb from drinking milk is pretty small. Bovine Tb while possible for humans to contact is different to the human tb that was common until the 50's.

Kovu

I try to only drink 'unpasteurised/unhomogenized' milk as well, called 'Raw' milk up here. I get it from a company/farm in Cork who sell it in country markets around the place. I just find it tastes nicer, plus there's always a drop of cream at the top that is yum:D
Also have taken some from our own cows too, we also did it when we milked years ago.
Rovi could be spot on with that about home wells too. We have a home well and the water is definitely tastier than public scheme. Unfortunately it's hard water so screws up the shower/pipes etc but I would take it over a scheme any day.

rangler1

Rovi wrote: »

My siblings and I were reared on raw unpasturised milk, and we're all fine healthy strapping lumps

However, we're now over 20 years out of milk production, and I find it to be very strong when I get a taste these days.

On the pathogens thing, I've heard a theory that drinking your own home produced raw milk is a bit like drinking untreated water from your own well.
You were born and reared in the environment of your home place, with all its own biological and environmental challenges, and you have developed (and acquired, through your own mother's milk) a good degree of immunity to whatever challenges are present.
It's the same thing as the locals in underdeveloped parts of the world being able to drink the local tap/river/lake water in some level of safety, but it being a very bad idea for non-locals to do so.

Like you I don't like the taste of fresh milk nowadays, but apart from that I'd agree to with the ''experts'' that claim it triggers asthma attacks, even the stuff out of cartons.
I've also seen where parents reducing milk/cream to asthmatic children brings improvement

micraX

There is only like 14 dairy herds in ncd, one in castleknock and there is like 6 between the airport/ saint Margarets and Ballybocail, find one there and go in and ask.

The man in red and black

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

With regards to pathogens in the milk if proper hygiene is practiced in milking the cow and providing the cow hasn't gotten mastitis there should be little to no bacteria in the milk and certainly not E . coli.
With antibiotic resistance I really don't see the problem. If proper withdrawal periods are observed there will be none in the milk. As for antibiotic resistant TB has there ever been a case antibiotic resistance in bovine tb transmitted to humans and the antibiotic resistance attributed to standard animal treatment for say mastitis.
I would also think that the chances of contracting tb from drinking milk is pretty small. Bovine Tb while possible for humans to contact is different to the human tb that was common until the 50's.

The milking routine would want to be immaculate for there to be minimal contamination of the milk and even then you couldn't be sure it would free of contamination. E. coli is everywhere on a farm and in even in your bathroom. The risk arises when it's a pathogenic strain of E. coli which is more common in cattle, E. coli O157 which can cause death in people.

If there was a herd break down then the chances of getting TB from the milk would be significant. That was a huge way that people got TB and one of the main driving forces behind the push for pasteurisation originally. Bovine TB is caused by M. bovis and human TB is typically caused by M. tuberculosis but if they are infected from cattle obviously it's likely they will have M. bovis.

This is also a significant thing to be considered in areas of Ireland that have reduced vaccination of children over the past 20+ years. You only have to look at the outbreak of clinical TB in that primary school in Cork (I believe it was Cork anyway) about 2 years ago to see the BCG vaccine is still a necessity!

Pasteurisation isn't perfect, it doesn't kill the bacteria that cause Johne's but as yet that hasn't been proven to cause problems in people and the benefits far outweigh the negatives that may or may not exist.

As I said above in my family we all grew up drinking raw milk and it worked out but there is a risk there and if you had to sit down and think about what would happen if your child died from E. coli from raw milk then you might start to think about avoiding that risk. Most cases of food-borne disease are in the young and the elderly, something to keep in mind.

Base price

buttercups88 wrote: »

would anyone be able to help?

OP I suggest that you contact Glanbia - http://www.glanbia.com/site-services/contact-us
Otherwise if you have a few acres then apply for a herd number and buy a cow or two.
It really surprises me that year on year, some folk seem to want to flaunt the rules regarding the sale of whole milk.
Obviously they are not aware of the regulations regarding same

enfant terrible

Seems risky
http://www.foodsafety.gov/blog/raw_milk.html

J.O. Farmer

The man in red and black wrote: »

The milking routine would want to be immaculate for there to be minimal contamination of the milk and even then you couldn't be sure it would free of contamination. E. coli is everywhere on a farm and in even in your bathroom. The risk arises when it's a pathogenic strain of E. coli which is more common in cattle, E. coli O157 which can cause death in people.

If there was a herd break down then the chances of getting TB from the milk would be significant. That was a huge way that people got TB and one of the main driving forces behind the push for pasteurisation originally. Bovine TB is caused by M. bovis and human TB is typically caused by M. tuberculosis but if they are infected from cattle obviously it's likely they will have M. bovis.

This is also a significant thing to be considered in areas of Ireland that have reduced vaccination of children over the past 20+ years. You only have to look at the outbreak of clinical TB in that primary school in Cork (I believe it was Cork anyway) about 2 years ago to see the BCG vaccine is still a necessity!

Pasteurisation isn't perfect, it doesn't kill the bacteria that cause Johne's but as yet that hasn't been proven to cause problems in people and the benefits far outweigh the negatives that may or may not exist.

As I said above in my family we all grew up drinking raw milk and it worked out but there is a risk there and if you had to sit down and think about what would happen if your child died from E. coli from raw milk then you might start to think about avoiding that risk. Most cases of food-borne disease are in the young and the elderly, something to keep in mind.

Your clearly quite knowledgeable about this type of thing and I can't totally disagree with you. However I still think that a good milk hygiene regime will minimise (not eliminate) contamination. Certainly very little E. coli should be present as that indicates faecal contamination. I agree O157 is a commensal in cattle and pathogenic in humans but as a cattle farmer I am probably exposed regularly and don't get sick.
I wouldn't advise feeding raw milk to very young children and immunocompromised people but everybody should have an immune system to deal with pathogens. On TB some would say that we have all been exposed at one or another. The incidence of confirmed TB in this country is low a lot lower than reactors and I think you'd have to be unlucky to contract TB this way particularly if you weren't relying on milk from 1 cow when you take a dilution factor into consideration.
The bacteria that causes johnes disease is another mycobacteria species I think. The link between it and crohns is not yet confirmed (and may not be).
There are risks but there is with anything. Cross the road and you could get hit with a car. You need to take reasonable precautions but you can't eliminate all risks. If someone feels there are health benefits from raw milk assuming that they have a good immune system I think they can make up their own mind.
I wouldn't drink raw milk but because of the taste. I wouldn't be afraid of infection.

The man in red and black

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I wouldn't advise feeding raw milk to very young children and immunocompromised people but everybody should have an immune system to deal with pathogens. On TB some would say that we have all been exposed at one or another. The incidence of confirmed TB in this country is low a lot lower than reactors and I think you'd have to be unlucky to contract TB this way particularly if you weren't relying on milk from 1 cow when you take a dilution factor into consideration.

The bacteria that causes johnes disease is another mycobacteria species I think. The link between it and crohns is not yet confirmed (and may not be).

If someone feels there are health benefits from raw milk assuming that they have a good immune system I think they can make up their own mind.

Thanks, some good points there. TB was just an example of the original need for pasteurisation, it is one of the least likely contaminants in milk in Ireland nowadays thank God. However if there was break down in TB status on a farm they could still have a shedder. There is still the very rare case of clinical TB in cattle that somehow didn't show up on the test.

As for Johne's and Chron's diease I personally don't believe there is a link, at least not one that has any evidence yet. I was just using Johne's disease as an example that pasteurisation is not 100% in case someone brought it up and would say that I was in favour of a flawed tool.

It is indeed caused by a different mycobacterium, M. avium subspecies paratuberculosis(MAP). The name is misleading, it does not cause tuberculosis in any species. I only mentioned it because it has been shown to be present in pasteurised milk off of the supermarket shelves. The mycobacteriae that are responsible for TB do not survive pasteurisation. As yet there is no known human risk to exposure to to MAP but it is interesting that it can be found in pasteurised milk.

I fully agree that people should make up their own mind on it. I just feel strongly that they should be encouraged to look up the possible risks before they decide. I'm currently in Canada where the raw milk movement is alot bigger among the non-farming community and I feel alot of people just hear at the health food store that raw milk is great but never look up the possible risks and assume it's perfect. Anyone that says it's so natural only needs to consider that we are the only species to still drink milk in adulthood, and that the majority of human's, bar a cross section of pre-dominantly caucasian europeans, are actually lactose intolerant in adulthood, to realise the natural argument is on thin ice also.

J.O. Farmer

In relation to something being natural it doesn't mean safe or even good for you. Natural means from nature therefore I could call the botulism toxin natural but it's one of the most poisonous subatances known to man.
It's good to have informed debate on these things and I take it that the examples you gave are just that and there to illustrate a point.
I'm not sure of the numbers of animals with tb in this country and I don't know if the figures are available as not all reactors will have tb and not all carriers will react as you say.
Not enough is known yet about crohns and johnes but it may be something like bse and cjd in that there may be a link in some cases but not all depending on varient of crohns for want of a better word. I don't think that the 2 will be directly linked in all cases.

hfallada

I know its quite popular in New York. People buy it from the upstate dairy farms. But you are advised not to give honey to Children under 3 as there is a risk of bacteria. Although honey naturally contents hydrogen peroxide.

J.O. Farmer

hfallada wrote: »

I know its quite popular in New York. People buy it from the upstate dairy farms. But you are advised not to give honey to Children under 3 as there is a risk of bacteria. Although honey naturally contents hydrogen peroxide.

The high sugar content will do more than the hydrogen peroxide to minimise bacteria in honey. Children under 3 probably are still developing their immune system so the honey like raw milk probably not recommended.

The man in red and black

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Not enough is known yet about crohns and johnes but it may be something like bse and cjd in that there may be a link in some cases but not all depending on varient of crohns for want of a better word. I don't think that the 2 will be directly linked in all cases.

God I hope they never prove a link or Ireland will hit the worst recession yet. It would destroy the economy overnight. If pasteurisation doesn't kill MAP and they were to find evidence it was causing Crohn's disease the dairy industry and all the beef crosses from it would be finished. No need to tell people on here how important the dairy industry is but Ireland has a 15% of the entire world's baby formula market. If they link Crohn's and Johnes then good night dairy industry, good night beef, good night economy!

Not to be the profit of doom or anything!

adamkeane07

hi everyone. just wondering is there any dairy farmers, or anyone who knows one, that would be willing to sell raw milk (unpasteurized) directly from the farm?? Id be looking for maybe 15-20 litres a week and would really love to be getting it from the farm. im not sure on the legal issues regarding the sale of raw milk but if a waiver was needed to be signed thats no hassle. anywhere around the athenry, oranmore or even loughrea would be ideal. appreciate any help at all

5live

It is illegal to sell raw milk to the public because of the health risks associated with its consumption.

Raw milk can only be consumed by the family of the farmer.

Iirc, guests to the farmers house have to be provided with pastuerised milk and not raw milk also.

Kovu

Sorry 5live, it's legal again now, but under strict guidelines. I normally get a few litres each week.

This appears to be a list.

Muckit

Perceived health risks. l drank it as a child and never did me any harm. .... oh wait...ah that might explain it:D

Muckit

Now just to be clear l wouldnt be advocating it for everyone. very young babies, pregnant women etc and possibly others with weak immune or certain medical issues. But fresh natural milk... it ain't poisonous!

have2flushtwice

I agree with Muckit, however I see an intense operation beside me and the cows have not a pick on them, the grass is driven by slurry and fertilizer spreading as soon as the field is empty. (which is mostly nitrogen, and governed by rigid spreading dates - feel free to correct me) even the cowsh1ts look different! Now don't get me wrong, we have ways of testing solids and fats and protiens like never before, but the whole production operation is turning into battery hen territory, with zero grazers, and the superfarm which was mooted for south tipp (discussed here previously) drawing in the grass and drawing out the slurry. The cows will not see much daylight and the walking energy will be spend on milk generation instead. Any deficiency in the milk quality will be made up from additional minerals to keep the balance. (bearing I mind that the superfarm is a one off)

I grew up on a dairy farm and the luxury of warm milk on cereal meant something different than turning on a microwave to heat it up! didn't do us any harm either. Back in the day, the grass got a bit of slurry now and then, and some fertilizer when the money was there. I know it was a different era, but I think the milk today is not the milk of yesteryear.

Username John

have2flushtwice wrote: »

I agree with Muckit, however I see an intense operation beside me and the cows have not a pick on them, the grass is driven by slurry and fertilizer spreading as soon as the field is empty. (which is mostly nitrogen, and governed by rigid spreading dates - feel free to correct me) even the cowsh1ts look different! Now don't get me wrong, we have ways of testing solids and fats and protiens like never before, but the whole production operation is turning into battery hen territory, with zero grazers, and the superfarm which was mooted for south tipp (discussed here previously) drawing in the grass and drawing out the slurry. The cows will not see much daylight and the walking energy will be spend on milk generation instead. Any deficiency in the milk quality will be made up from additional minerals to keep the balance. (bearing I mind that the superfarm is a one off)

I grew up on a dairy farm and the luxury of warm milk on cereal meant something different than turning on a microwave to heat it up! didn't do us any harm either. Back in the day, the grass got a bit of slurry now and then, and some fertilizer when the money was there. I know it was a different era, but I think the milk today is not the milk of yesteryear.

hmmm, I would question if that is mostly nostalgia...
When we look back we often see "the way things were, and how they were better"

I think I read somewhere that the amount of fertilizer usage peaked in the 90s, and its reducing since - mainly cos of cost. (I'll have a look for where I read that)

Slurry has been around for a while. I would have thought that slurry goes out more often now, as previously it would have been contractors that put it out, so it made more sense to put a lot out in one go... more lads have their own tankers now.

As for the cows being thin - as far as I know some cows are bred just for milk, and that's it, they wont get fat. (But I will wait for some knowledgable dairy man to comment more on this) Are you sure you are comparing like for like when you think of the cows from your youth?

have2flushtwice

Username John wrote: »

hmmm, I would question if that is mostly nostalgia...
When we look back we often see "the way things were, and how they were better"

I think I read somewhere that the amount of fertilizer usage peaked in the 90s, and its reducing since - mainly cos of cost. (I'll have a look for where I read that)

Slurry has been around for a while. I would have thought that slurry goes out more often now, as previously it would have been contractors that put it out, so it made more sense to put a lot out in one go... more lads have their own tankers now.

As for the cows being thin - as far as I know some cows are bred just for milk, and that's it, they wont get fat. (But I will wait for some knowledgable dairy man to comment more on this) Are you sure you are comparing like for like when you think of the cows from your youth?

that's a fair point, i'm not farming and this forum and the journal are my links into what goes on!
I would stay with my opinion on the super farm though.

Reggie.

Muckit wrote: »

Perceived health risks. l drank it as a child and never did me any harm. .... oh wait...ah that might explain it:D

Ah there we go.....

kerrycow

I'm in Loughrea area with that much raw milk to spare if that's any help

certainly not an intensive operation, cows grazing upland in Slieve Aughtys

_MadRa_

Opinions are funny things, You can still have one even without basic information for either viewpoint.
The only thing store-bought milk and Straight from the Udder milk have in common is the colour.

Muckit

_MadRa_ wrote: »

Opinions are funny things...

They say opinions are like ar*eholes.... every has one!

Midlandsman80

Look up crawfords farm for raw milk, they sell in glass bottles and will sell in larger amounts, they suggest there is no law to stop them...fair play to them..

Capercaillie

whelan2 wrote: »

The main thing stopping people doing anything in these niche markets is paperwork, rules and regulations, near neighbour had his own brand of cheese and also sold raw milk. He showed me a portion of the crap he had to do to have every thing correct, not worth it imo.

Raw milk is dangerous to general public. Soft cheeses made from raw milk even more dangerous. Strict regulation probably required when selling high risk foods.

Dawggone

Capercaillie wrote: »

Raw milk is dangerous to general public. Soft cheeses made from raw milk even more dangerous. Strict regulation probably required when selling high risk foods.

Please explain to a fool like me how raw milk is so dangerous.