What the f*ck is wrong with Michael Bay? Seriously?!

IvaBigWun

So Ive just struggled through Transformers 4 and when I say it felt like a cinematic and cerebral obstacle course to complete Im not joking. Absolutely horrendous stuff and ties with Bad Boys 2 as the worst blockbuster Ive ever seen.

But wait.

Michael Bay wasnt always like this, right? He made some of the best popcorn action films of the 90s: Armageddon, The Rock, Bad Boys were all great, fun films.

Then came along the first Transformers after his string of bad to dodgy flops: Bad Boys 2 (so very bad) and The Island (so very dodgy) and my expectations were low. But yet, he pulled it out of the bag. Spare a few ridiculously cheesy lines the first of the multi billion dollar franchise was a good to great popcorn blockbuster.

So why does he keep fúcking up so badly with other films?

I have a theory that maybe he didnt have "final cut" in the films that worked. Take the first Transformers as an example where Spielberg had a heavy hand (thankfully) in the tone of the film. Now Id guess Paramount just think "he's made us back 700 million in profit over the last few films. Sure f*ck it, just let him do what he wants"

What the f*ck is wrong with Michael Bay? Seriously?!

How has he slid so far? The man can frame and shoot shots beautifully and, when he puts his mind to it, do Action like few others And what is your favourite film of his, if any? Im going with Armageddon.

Poll to follow.

Sad Professor

IvaBigWun wrote: »

Michael Bay wasnt always like this, right? He made some of the best popcorn action films of the 90s: Armageddon, The Rock, Bad Boys were all great, fun films.

Are you sure they were Michael Bay films and not Jerry Bruckheimer films?

Tipsy McSwagger

He treats the audience like idiots while the likes of Christopher Nolan treats the audience like intelligent filmgoers.

IvaBigWun

Sad Professor wrote: »

Are you sure they were Michael Bay films and not Jerry Bruckheimer films?

Are you being sarcastic?

Bruckheimer has/had heavy input into a lot of his films, rumour has it even "final cut" over some of his directors. So you're right, maybe the Bay movies he presided over were so much better because Jerry had such a say in their tone.

Maybe.

IvaBigWun

Ok.

Fess up.

Which bollix voted for Bad Boys 2?

SVG

I'm a fan of his films that involve The Rock/The Rock.:P

I do think Pain & Gain is his best by far though. I don't think it gets the respect it deserves because who wants to respect Michael Bay. It's just the perfect match of style and subject. Dumb, muscular, shiny, nasty, calculated. I would have given The Rock an Oscar for this.

So, from my point of view, Michael Bay is going wrong by not having The Rock in his films/ setting them on Alcatraz.

Joeface

same thing that's wrong with lots of directors, been told they are awesome every day just feeds an ego. then too much special effects and again been told its awesome. Cameron is the same aliens ,true lies then someone put him on a sinking ship and told he was awesome and we got ferngully the last blue planet
Joel Schumacher is another good example. all that money for those awful batman sequels and when they took the money away he produces tigerland

less is more ,less is more

IvaBigWun

I realise polls by default lend themselves to some lazy input (ive been guilty of it myself), but so far we've 6 replies Vs over 20 votes.

Lets hear your thoughts lads

RomanGod

Did Michael Bay produce the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie? If so then we probably won't be hearing from him again, that film lost millions

IvaBigWun

RomanGod wrote: »

Did Michael Bay produce the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie? If so then we probably won't be hearing from him again, that film lost millions

Wiki

1 Transformers: Dark of the Moon $1,123,794,079 2011
2 Transformers: Age of Extinction $1,032,180,031 2014
3 Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen $836,303,693 2009
4 Transformers $709,709,780 2007

The last four Transformer films have, incredibly, made nearly 4 billion dollars.

You'll be hearing from Bay for at least two more decades.

Harry Palmr

Those pesky Chinese have no taste!

Presumably T5 will be Chinese themed in some way

e_e

His films are almost always too long and over-edited beyond belief. BUT at least he has an aesthetic and recognizable visual language, which can't be said for many big budget directors out there.

Pain & Gain is an example of his style being put to great use, it's almost a self aware parody of a Michael Bay movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j2VWX6epfw

Cork boy 55

Transformer 2 gave me a severe headache and I don't get severe headaches normally. I am actually serious

Anyone seen the last ship tv show he is involved in?

e_e

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q

This is a great analysis of Bay's style.

Half Rhodesian

I love Armageddon, great stuff... sean connery in the rock is fantastic.. i was very into my transformers cartoons (O. Prime, Starscream and Soundwave) as a kid and so i do enjoy the transformers movies even though their a bit childish and the humour is pretty bad in all of them.. (have not seen T4 but doubt it's much different)

pixelburp

I vaguely recall it mentioned here, or somewhere out within the wilderness of the internet, suggesting one of the reasons for Bay's relative restraint and cinematic coherence in Bad Boys & The Rock was the steadying hand of the late Don Simpson in the producer's chair. I dunno, maybe my memory's making stuff up but looking at his CV, after Simpson's passing you can sorta see a sharp up-tick in the sort of bewildering, exhausting film-making that eventually defined Michael Bay as a brand. And ultimately, that's what he is now: a brand. A loud, obnoxious, lurid, successful brand. Something of a pox on cinema, but like the Bayhem within his films, somewhat arresting too.

Michael Bay also feels like he comes from the same pool as someone like George Lucas, where a director found himself surrounded by money and Yes Men through their earlier successes. And while Lucas drowned his creativity with merchandising and an unwavering belief that CGI will solve all directing requirements, when Bay gained unlimited budgets his lurid fetish for technology and objectification just went into overdrive. He was never a subtle man, or judging by his characters and treatment of women, a particularly pleasant one, but his style worked with the restraining hand of budgets. Take away that restraint and you get things like Transformers 1 through 4. The Rock was as dumb as a bag of rocks, but it had a tighter focus and its visuals helped, rather than hindered, the action. That same style, pushed to excess, made Transformers 2 an incoherent, insulting mess.

wingnut

Half Rhodesian wrote: »

I love Armageddon, great stuff... sean connery in the rock is fantastic.. i was very into my transformers cartoons (O. Prime, Starscream and Soundwave) as a kid and so i do enjoy the transformers movies even though their a bit childish and the humour is pretty bad in all of them.. (have not seen T4 but doubt it's much different)

Any episode of the Transformers cartoon had better plots then the movies.

Brian?

Everything he's ever been involved in was terrible.

/thread.

kevohmsford

Pearl Harbour for the win :pac:

scruff monkey

RomanGod wrote: »

Did Michael Bay produce the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie? If so then we probably won't be hearing from him again, that film lost millions

Cough, Computer says no

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=main&id=tmnt2013.htm

FunLover18

RomanGod wrote: »

Did Michael Bay produce the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie? If so then we probably won't be hearing from him again, that film lost millions

Did pretty well and a sequel has already been announced.

The Rock is by far his best film, and easily on of the best action films out there.

krudler

The Rock is his masterpiece, easily in the top 10 action movies of the 90's, and there were a lot of great 90's action films to be had. The action is great, the dialogue is funny as hell, it moves along at a great pace, memorable characters, good one liners, brilliant Hans Zimmer score.

Bad Boys was fun enough, the sequel was completely overblown and long but does have a fantastic car chase and that 360 rotating shootout was inspired.

Armageddon is brilliant for the first hour or so, great cast, funny dialogue, good effect, training montage. Hell yes. Then once they get into space and land on the asteroid it just descends into chaos, way too long again. Genuinely still don't have a clue which shuttle is which when they're landing, it's just so badly edited.

Pearl Harbour- well it's a horribly written, cliched and overlong mess, but it's a beautifully shot horribly written cliched and overlong mess. The attack scene is fantastic tough I don't think anyone can argue that.

The Island, I actually like The Island, there I said it.

Tranformers.
1st was ok, fun enough, great effects, brilliant score and a few really great scenes. Stupid plot, not enough time given to the Transformers themselves beyond being giant CGI things to punch other giant CGI things.

2nd on is cinematic diarrhea, one of the worst films ever made. Racist, mysoginistic, nonsensical plot with plot holes as big as Devastator's balls.

3rd one was more of the same with a pretty cool extended action sequence in Chicago, loses points for turning Optimus Prime into a psycho, and even more for a completely inept psycho who spends the majority of the climax tangled in some ropes, you've got a fcuking sword for an arm!

4th one, more cinematic diarrhea. 3 hours longs and feels like 6. I realised it's impossible to stab yourself to death with a plastic straw in the cinema, believe me I tried.

Pain & Gain, more of this please, still feels like a Bay movie without the inflated budget. The Rock is on brilliant form and it's really funny and dark.


For all his faults, mainly misogyny rampant in his films, stupid amounts of product placement, overblown plots that are an hour longer than they need to be most of the time with pointless side stories that nobody cares about and juvenile humour, when he wants to he can shoot absolutely amazing looking action scenes.
His camera placement is some of the best in the business and even though the geography of his setpieces leave a lot to be desired he definitely has a brilliant eye for money shots. Just wish he'd calm down on the shaky cam and let us actually see those shots he spends millions setting up.

He is an auteur in his own demented way whether cinesnobs want to admit it or not, his films have an unmistakeable look and feel to them, sometimes that's not always a good thing. But who wouldn't want to live in the world of a Michael Bay film? All those amazing sunsets :pac:

Zubeneschamali

e_e wrote: »

His films are almost always too long and over-edited beyond belief. BUT at least he has an aesthetic and recognizable visual language, which can't be said for many big budget directors out there.

a) Close-up of scantily clad models rear

b) Sh!t blowing up

c) If NOT a) or b), shake camera to make audience ill.

sebcity

I liked bad boys 2!
Don't hate the player - hate the game

krudler

sebcity wrote: »

I liked bad boys 2!
Don't hate the player - hate the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaLtd0H8G-s

The car chase is pretty spectacular stuff, it's overedited for much of it but there are some amazing shots in there. It's Bayhem summed up in one 5 minute sequence. Crazy action, wisecracks, tracking shots, shakycam, quick editing and excess. "Hey we have a truck carrying cars, let's dump the cars off and into the road...oh and one is attached to the truck by a chain...and it's upside down...and on fire!"

Half Rhodesian

wingnut wrote: »

Any episode of the Transformers cartoon had better plots then the movies.

hahaha brilliant.... ah jaysus that takes me back... Those cartoons are classics :pac:

cloud493

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

He treats the audience like idiots while the likes of Christopher Nolan treats the audience like intelligent filmgoers.

I think you've got that slightly wrong so.

Adamantium

The man has legitimate style (that most comic book movie directors and the like would die for) and was on fire in the 90's. That double shuttle launch and the image of Liv Tyler in in front of the Star and Stripes is one of my favourite scenes in all of cinema. I've had good taste (I think), too, Lost In Translation and Apocalypse Now, Collateral are my some of my favourite movies of all time.

Fantastic and yes moving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZDKbRWGqTw

I wish he'd back away from Transformers, I found out recently Speliberg had a heavy hand in the tone of the first, and no wonder because it's clearly the best of them.
That highway scene is glorious.

It's hard to believe the same man who made the Bad Boys, The Rock Armageddon and the Island would tie himself up in something as boring as inane as Transformers. Start making R rated Action movies, lord knows you're one of the few that can.

Armageddon has Bay humour but its of the best variety, I don't how to explain but it's more restrained. I wish he'd make another film like it, because there is so few films of those original action/adventure films made with proper large movie ensembles that were full of tension and danger been made in the 00's and 10's

Edge of Tomorrow was glorious because it's such a movie, I could gush about it all day.

Steve Buscemi was brilliant, whenever I see protests for animals rights and the likes, I'm always internally thinking in his his voice "No nukes, no nukes, no nukes"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBYZns9bd2o

Bay talks about the Worldwide success of Transformers, bringing the movie in at a reasonable budget and his disinterest in the original toyline/series: “When you look back at those cartoons, they’re not that great. They remember their childhood sweeter than it really was. I couldn’t stomach those cartoons.”

e_e

Adamantium have you watched Pain & Gain? It was a genuine pleasant surprise for me, in as much as a true life story of murderous body builders could be "pleasant".

I'm here for Bad Boys 2, somebody has got to stand up for it! It's not high art or a film on par with Bad Boys 1, but there are some entertaining/amusing moments none the less...

-KKK sting opening.
-Marcus Burnett on ecstasy.
-That whole scene with poor Reggie calling to pick up Marcus' daughter for a date...

Marcus Burnett: You a virgin?
Reggie: Yes, sir.
Marcus Burnett: Good. Keep it that way. Ain't gonna be no ****ing tonight.
Mike Lowery: You ever made love to a man?
Reggie: No.
Mike Lowery: You want to?


-The car chase with the crazy Haitians.
-Mike and Marcus the rat exterminators.
-The film's climax in Cuba.

Looking at Bay's more recent output, BB2 could have been far worse.

Adamantium

Still makes me LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pM8PrqY5Rg

Bipolar Joe

I think other directors are forgiven for a lot of the same things Bay does that annoys viewers. He's like the big budget Uwe Boll, people can't see passed his name and that really colours the viewing experience for a lot of the audience (I feel it shouldn't be said, but for the contrarian pricks out there, not all of the audience, obviously).

The same can be said for other directors people like. Christopher Nolan was mentioned earlier. Lots of people love his movies, even though I find they're often borderline incoherent, the pacing is often terrible and sometimes he will edit action just like Michael Bay does, up close and shaking like crazy.

I don't like Bay's movies, but I do think he gets unfair criticism the majority of the time.

Adamantium

e_e wrote: »

Adamantium have you watched Pain & Gain? It was a genuine pleasant surprise for me, in as much as a true life story of murderous body builders could be "pleasant".

It was pretty good, it was Bad Boys 2 tier good, I'd put near the upper 1/3 of his work.
There was actually a point in my teenage years, where I knew Armageddon was scientifically ridiculous at times, but I honestly enjoyed it as much as something like Raiders of the Lost Ark gasp Everytime that film was on E4 or such, I'd watch it.

I was actually away at a school retreat/holiday in Co.Down and I saw Armageddon on VHS beside the TV and I was eyeing. 2 days later we're going home and I put throw my luggage into the overhead compartment , felt around for a space and what do you know I find an Armageddon VHS, somebody from another school had tried to nab it and obviously forgot it ..facepalm

Christopher Nolan and a tonne of other Oscar winning directors, teams are major fans of his and technical ability

http://www.slashfilm.com/christopher-nolan-loves-watching-michael-bay-movies/

According to an interview with Inception cinematographer Wally Pfister, it’s fact. Read what he had to say about Nolan’s love affair with Bay’s films after the break.

“…there are the movies out there that he loves and I hate. I’m not a big Michael Bay fan. Chris loves Michael Bay’s movies. And so I’m always like come on, dude! But he sees something in it, and I don’t see it.”

Joeface

Maybe Nolan likes the bayhem movies cause it makes Nolan look even better.

you can film all the best action sequences you want , pick a Jet li movie , some great stunts and action in them but bad story , bad plot , bad execution of the main bulk of the film makes it point less in the end. To me Bay is a bit like that. the ability to entertain is there but just gets lost along the way on each of his films , maybe because he has "great idea's" during the film and then the movie just spirals out in to boring.

even from the POLE you cans see the Rock is the one that had it all , good Dialog , decent acting follow by good action, and not too many over the top big visual epic moments , (example been Cage at the end with flares and the slow mo and the so on)

he needs some one to go " yes Micheal that is a good idea , now put that aside for the next film and focus on this please"

on a side note ,Hasbro must be laughing there holes off. Look at this rubbish and all the money we are making. I suppose from a business point of view Bay is a genius , apologies for every Transformer movie when its finished , promises to make the next one better . People pile into see it , its awful , he apologies again and rinse repeat

constitutionus

thought this covered it nicely.

razorblunt

Bad boys 3 ... Can't wait to see Martin Lawrence pretend to vomit again, said nobody ever.

sperm_whale

used to love armageddon when it came out ( was twenty ) but i think its crap now

i still love the rock though

FunLover18

I love that 'none' is second in the poll

ancapailldorcha

I watched Pain & Gain last night and I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would. If we can keep Michael away from childhood treasures then there's a fair chance we'll get a few more decent flicks out of him. I've no idea where the love for Bad Boys comes from. The sequel was alright but I didn't enjoy the original at all.

sperm_whale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I watched Pain & Gain last night and I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would. If we can keep Michael away from childhood treasures then there's a fair chance we'll get a few more decent flicks out of him. I've no idea where the love for Bad Boys comes from. The sequel was alright but I didn't enjoy the original at all.

only saw the sequel around a year ago , didnt realise how violent and outright crass it is, that bit with the corpses falling out of hearses is pretty revolting

e_e

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I watched Pain & Gain last night and I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would.

Dwayne Johnson barbecuing a load of severed hands

is an image for the ages.

don ramo

hes hired by film companies to make generic action films that rake in massive cash, hes quite capable to making a good tight solid actioner, but when a studio throws you 20 million to make a film to sell toys, your not gonna say no, i remember he was asked about the gun on top of the armadillo in armageddon, and why it was there, and he said it stright out it was to sell toys, obviously it didnt work out but thats why studios love him, cause he has that kind of mindset,

thankfully he has seen sense and has left the transformers franchise, it would be nice if he hooked up with jerry bruckheimer now that he has left disney also, and get back to making good action films, he has shown in pain and gain that he is still quite capable to making a more grounded stand alone entertaining film, that doenst need huge amounts of CGI, and a 200million dollar budget,

armageddon is my favorite films of his, its probably my main go to film for a good action film when im not in the mood to pick from hundreds of others, also the rock is a great film, and bad boys 2 is a great film, they all have a great balance of comedy and action, and they all look great to boot,

ancapailldorcha

I watched The Rock last night and it's a damn good popcorn/action flick. I'm going to give Armageddon and The Island a go soon.

The Strawman Argument

Pain and Gain was great imo, a lot of it boiled down to some wonderful casting but it very much felt like Bay was aware of how ridiculous his whole schtick may seem to some people. Wouldn't go so far to say it was him declaring he was in on the joke, I think he genuinely loves most the crap he makes (Transformers series would be $$$ for sure, mind) and isn't ashamed of it.

IvaBigWun

don ramo wrote: »

thankfully he has seen sense and has left the transformers franchise

Really?

I thought he was on board for 5 and 6.

don ramo

IvaBigWun wrote: »

Really?

I thought he was on board for 5 and 6.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/11027925/Michael-Bay-wont-direct-Transformers-5.html

there not saying if he will totally leave the franchise, he may stick around in a producing capacity, but he wont be directing them anymore,

prospect

Was a tough call between Bad Boys & The Rock.

Sean Connery won it for me though.

ancapailldorcha

prospect wrote: »

Was a tough call between Bad Boys & The Rock.

Sean Connery won it for me though.

I don't get the love for Bad Boys at all. The sequel's not bad though.

IvaBigWun

don ramo wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/11027925/Michael-Bay-wont-direct-Transformers-5.html

there not saying if he will totally leave the franchise, he may stick around in a producing capacity, but he wont be directing them anymore,

He's said this 3 times now though and then directed 3 sequels!

Two scenarios here;

1) If Paramount want another billion dollar film they'll do the smart thing and offer him $50 million to direct another (plus a cut of profits). It was said above he probably got $20 million for the last one, Id say it was much higher. Does anyone know?

2) We get a new director to finally do the franchise justice. Bay delivered a fantastic popcorn film with his first and then some of the worst blockbusters of all time with the sequels.

After the amazing Edge Of Tomorrow Id like to see Doug Liman given the reigns for 5 and maybe 6 too.

IvaBigWun

re: his paydays, I found this.

He made $80 million from the first one alone! (back end deals included)

http://movieline.com/2009/06/05/discuss-michael-bay-made-80-million-directing-transformers/

Joeface

$80million ... there is just no shame in Hollywood , and of course I know how he sleeps at night , very well under a quilt made of dead presidents

awful amount of money for extremely poor quality work by any directors standards . He is no Uwe boll but no one ever gave Uwe 100+million budget to make movie and a back end deal worth 80million