Dublin v Donegal Sunday 31 August AI semifinal Mod Warning Posts #392 #541

copacetic

Yellowblackbird wrote: »

even when dublin were kicking long range points early on i thouhht it was ominous that we couldnt penetrate the blanket as in the monaghan game. even with the the hsdefenders all attacking throughout thr whole game ee could never bresk through. people thought the monaghan game would be good preperation for but it was actually perfect preperstion for donegal. they had a close up study of how dublin in how dublin would try to get approach masded defrnce

It actually was going better for Dublin than Monaghan game 4 points up and then got two easier goal chances than in Monaghan game. Dublin broke through on goal easily enough early on when Donegal had to come out of defence and try and compete for kickouts. If goal chances were taken it would have been 2-8 to 0-4 and Donegal would have had to thrown caution away to try to catch up. Likely game would have gone the other way. Donegal took their chances when it mattered and deserved the win, but the tactical masterclass stuff is a bit overplayed. The games between good sides tend to come down to who makes less mistakes and who takes their chances.

robbiezero

DoctaDee wrote: »

So... the last few weeks we've had to endure the hand wringing about the state of the game with Dublin being the dominant force for years to come, split them up, take the money off them, get them to play outside Croker.

Come yesterday, we lose our 2nd championship game in 4 years and the same interested parties are now telling us for the good of Dublin football that we have to deconstruct the way we play ?

Look we get it, there's great mileage to be found in a Dublin defeat, you can either stick the knife in or be a bit more subtle. Cast the mind back a year ago when Donegal were beaten by Mayo, and contrast that with the same playing ideals that were so much on show from a very good Donegal team yesterday. Jim Gavin and the players have the same belief in their football principles, one defeat won't change that.

People are too quick to rush to judgement, we're grand the way we are, I wouldn't change a thing.

Seriously?
That was a very poor defensive performance from Dublin. Surely Donegal with 13 men in their own half when they were without the ball, should not have been able to create overlaps so easily on the counter-attack. I am not from Dublin, but I do enjoy watching them play football and their football philosophy, but yesterday was very reminiscent of the Caffrey era.

BonnieSituation

paddyisreal wrote: »

Kerry were every bit as defensive as donegal on saturday .... I don't what match spillane was watching with his rose tinted glasses on . He must be the poorest analysist in the game

Spillane was watching something from 1978

ChippingSodbury

copacetic wrote: »

Donegal took their chances when it mattered and deserved the win, but the tactical masterclass stuff is a bit overplayed.

I think Dublin lost the game because their defending was pretty poor. I don't think it's a great idea to base your game plan completely on blowing the other team out of the water in the first 20 mins. If the other team set themselves up to ensure they don't get blown away at the start, what do you do then??

As previously stated, they haven't turned into a bad team overnight: some adjustment on the amount of players attacking/ pressing forward and they'll be there or thereabouts again next year. Having said that, I was surprised that Gavin didn't see what was happening and have a Plan B. Donegal were fairly successful at pressing Dublin high up for the kickouts without committing everyone forward.

Ed Winchester

robbiezero wrote: »

Seriously?
That was a very poor defensive performance from Dublin. Surely Donegal with 13 men in their own half when they were without the ball, should not have been able to create overlaps so easily on the counter-attack. I am not from Dublin, but I do enjoy watching them play football and their football philosophy, but yesterday was very reminiscent of the Caffrey era.

I'd put it down to a bad day at the office rather than rip up the text book and start again.

copacetic

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

I think Dublin lost the game because their defending was pretty poor. I don't think it's a great idea to base your game plan completely on blowing the other team out of the water in the first 20 mins. If the other team set themselves up to ensure they don't get blown away at the start, what do you do then??

As previously stated, they haven't turned into a bad team overnight: some adjustment on the amount of players attacking/ pressing forward and they'll be there or thereabouts again next year. Having said that, I was surprised that Gavin didn't see what was happening and have a Plan B. Donegal were fairly successful at pressing Dublin high up for the kickouts without committing everyone forward.

The stats dont back up what people have been saying about the kick outs, Dublin only lost 3 of 22 of own kick outs, an amazing return. Donegal lost 13 of 31 of their own.


Donegal scored 17 chances from 26 which is where they won it, Dublin only managed 17/38.

It was Donegals composure and quality finishing (along with poor defending from Dublin) off less ball that made the difference.

BrianBoru00

copacetic wrote: »

The stats dont back up what people have been saying about the kick outs, Dublin only lost 3 of 22 of own kick outs, an amazing return. Donegal lost 13 of 31 of their own.


Donegal scored 17 chances from 26 which is where they won it, Dublin only managed 17/38.

It was Donegals composure and quality finishing (along with poor defending from Dublin) off less ball that made the difference.

Do you have a link to that information by any chance?
Thats a phenomenal amount of chances created though the number of "quality" scoring chances may be far less.

I'd love to see a consistent "Box Score" like in US sports where you can compare the same stats for any game...

harpsman

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I've said this umpteen times before but if Spillane had his way everyone would be playing that kick and catch horse****e that he thinks is the pinnacle style of the game.

The Donegal performance yesterday was all the more impressive given the start Dublin had.

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On another note so far since yesterday I have pretty much encountered 100s of Dublin fans during and after the match and indeed in here who have been nothing but gracious in defeat and could see clearly that the best team won. I haven't heard one sore word about the match at all. Except from the anti-Dublin brigade on here... How do these people get up in the morning?

Catch and Kick??? Catch and throw you mean-that kerry team threw the ball as much as they kicked it.

You from Donegal Bonnie?

Past30Now

copacetic wrote: »

The stats dont back up what people have been saying about the kick outs, Dublin only lost 3 of 22 of own kick outs, an amazing return. Donegal lost 13 of 31 of their own.


Donegal scored 17 chances from 26 which is where they won it, Dublin only managed 17/38.

It was Donegals composure and quality finishing (along with poor defending from Dublin) off less ball that made the difference.

The Donegal stat of losing 13 of their 31 kick outs doesn't tell the whole story when you look at where Donegal were kicking the ball. A large portion of their kick outs went to the centre forward position over midfield, where either Gallagher or Murphy were one on one with MDMA or O'Carroll, and if they won the ball they were ahead of their marker with one or two Dubs and their teammates between them and the goal. I haven't watched the match again yet, but I'd guess that they scored from that position almost all of the occasions that the fielder won the ball.

DoctaDee

robbiezero wrote: »

Seriously?
That was a very poor defensive performance from Dublin. Surely Donegal with 13 men in their own half when they were without the ball, should not have been able to create overlaps so easily on the counter-attack. I am not from Dublin, but I do enjoy watching them play football and their football philosophy, but yesterday was very reminiscent of the Caffrey era.

You're taking things slightly out of context, by arguing yesterday was Dublins definitive style of play; it isn't. There was so much wrong with the way things transpired yesterday; but look at the opening 20 mins - Donegal didn't get inside the Dublin 45. Their 1st (or 2nd) point from play was as a direct result of Alan Brogans man getting a 20 yard start on him down the Hogan side. Dublins defeat was as much concerned with what they didn't do as it was with what they did. Yesterday was the 1st time that Donegal have scored a goal against them

To analyse that game in the context of what happened in the preceding 2 years when they've beaten all the top teams around them and to crystallise the faults (of which there were many) as "Dublins style of play" is misleading imo.

BonnieSituation

Powerhouse wrote: »

Funnily enough I think Dublin's start arguably detracts from any assessment of Donegal's performance. In reality Donegal could have been beaten by the time they got to grips with Dublin had they conceded even one of the goal chances. Their style of play appears to work best when they are ahead as they can draw a team onto them and hit them on the break but they were in very risky territory at one stage early on and were within a heartbeat of going too far behind. That would concern them looking at yesterday's performance which otherwise was very good

I can't see them losing the final though.

I dunno. They aren't easily killed off at this level. As was shown in the other semi a 7 point lead isn't enough sometimes.

I think Dublin got their tactics bang on for the first 15-20. Donegal packed the defence and Gavin realised there was no point in challenging them directly. Taking shots from HF worked perfectly. Once Donegal realised their tactic wasn't working they pushed out and that was that. We never got to grips with them at all. It seemed we weren't ready to implement plan B do early.

The criticism of EOG is unjust though.

I think it was pointless to start him if he wasn't going to be engaged.

Paul Flynn was magnificent. As always POTY for me even at this stage.

Michael Murphy and Christy Toye were super. And the quality of Ryan McHugh was again scary to see. He was unreal against Armagh and we should have concentrated on him.

The one worry for Donegal is McFadden. He was largely absent for a lot of the game yesterday. But he was substantially better than he was v Armagh.

The last 10min was reminiscent of the 08 final.

I think nidgeweasel may get his wish.

BonnieSituation

harpsman wrote: »

Catch and Kick??? Catch and throw you mean-that kerry team threw the ball as much as they kicked it.

You from Donegal Bonnie?

Nope I'm a Dub. But have a huge grá for Ulster football. To a man every Dub I was talking to after the game had little to complain about and were full of praise.

I watched the game with my missus who's from Letterkenny and a mate from Dungannon. It was surreal to say the least not being too downhearted. Similar to the 08 and 09 defeats... The best team beat us hands down.

K-9

copacetic wrote: »

The stats dont back up what people have been saying about the kick outs, Dublin only lost 3 of 22 of own kick outs, an amazing return. Donegal lost 13 of 31 of their own.


Donegal scored 17 chances from 26 which is where they won it, Dublin only managed 17/38.

It was Donegals composure and quality finishing (along with poor defending from Dublin) off less ball that made the difference.

Donegal had more possession in the first half which surprised me as well despite Dublin winning kick outs hands down.

Turnovers along with the obvious shooting accuracy clinched it. Donegal just weren't robbing Dublin of the ball in the first 25 minutes, the longer the game went on the more and more Donegal seemed to be able to read the Dublin play.

BonnieSituation

K-9 wrote: »

Turnovers along with the obvious shooting accuracy clinched it.

Donegal couldn't turnover a page early on. It shows how important having the second man is.

Once they started to attack the breaking ball that was that.

Donegal just weren't robbing Dublin of the ball in the first 25 minutes, the longer the game went on the more and more Donegal seemed to be able to read the Dublin play.

That was my enduring memory of the last 15. The calmness of Donegal in defence as we panicked trying to score. It was as fine a performance from a team I've seen in years in that sense.

robbiezero

DoctaDee wrote: »

You're taking things slightly out of context, by arguing yesterday was Dublins definitive style of play; it isn't. There was so much wrong with the way things transpired yesterday; but look at the opening 20 mins - Donegal didn't get inside the Dublin 45. Their 1st (or 2nd) point from play was as a direct result of Alan Brogans man getting a 20 yard start on him down the Hogan side. Dublins defeat was as much concerned with what they didn't do as it was with what they did. Yesterday was the 1st time that Donegal have scored a goal against them

To analyse that game in the context of what happened in the preceding 2 years when they've beaten all the top teams around them and to crystallise the faults (of which there were many) as "Dublins style of play" is misleading imo.

Maybe. Only time will tell who is right. My own opinion is that Dublin's playing system is flawed defensively, others think it was just a bad day at the office. They could well be right.
There are not too many teams out there with enough quality at the moment to take advantage of it possibly only Donegal and maybe a resurgent Kerry in the future.

Past30Now

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Similar to the 08 and 09 defeats... The best team beat us hands down.

Absolutely agree that the better team won, but I don't feel as badly as I did after those two defeats. In both of those cases I came away feeling miles away from an All Ireland win. When the bookies open the book for the 2015 championship we'll be favourites, and rightly so. No team, including Donegal, will consider themselves favourites against us.

Yesterday was a lesson for us. Some of the mistakes we made won't be repeated. I'm positive about the future. Costello, Jack, Mannion etc will have another years football played. Most if not all of the current squad will still be available to us. There's a bunch of players who'll be looking to impress in the club championship and the O'Byrne Cup. Watson, Reddin, McHugh all made positive impressions earlier this year and will be chomping at the bit next year.

DoctaDee

Past30Now wrote: »

Absolutely agree that the better team won, but I don't feel as badly as I did after those two defeats. In both of those cases I came away feeling miles away from an All Ireland win. When the bookies open the book for the 2015 championship we'll be favourites, and rightly so. No team, including Donegal, will consider themselves favourites against us.

Yesterday was a lesson for us. Some of the mistakes we made won't be repeated. I'm positive about the future. Costello, Jack, Mannion etc will have another years football played. Most if not all of the current squad will still be available to us. There's a bunch of players who'll be looking to impress in the club championship and the O'Byrne Cup. Watson, Reddin, McHugh all made positive impressions earlier this year and will be chomping at the bit next year.

Psssst .. we'll have your man back too !

K-9

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Donegal couldn't turnover a page early on. It shows how important having the second man is.

Once they started to attack the breaking ball that was that.

Yep, it was nearly as if we didn't bother with breaking ball between the 15th and 25th minutes, it was that bad!

That was my enduring memory of the last 15. The calmness of Donegal in defence as we panicked trying to score. It was as fine a performance from a team I've seen in years in that sense.

It was noticeable about us all season, when Antrim came back at us and more importantly when Monaghan and Armagh goaled, the team never looked rattled. The Gaelic Life blog picked up on it today as well.

The other thing was discipline. I commented on it after the Ulster Final, we gave away needless frees but I knew Jim would have them schooled again on that. In that first 25 minutes we gave away no easy frees so that 0-9 could easily have been 0-12, effective damage limitation. We were good at that in 2012 and 11. There isn't much you can do when Flynn and Connolly are knocking them over but you can limit scoreable frees.

corny

robbiezero wrote: »

Maybe. Only time will tell who is right. My own opinion is that Dublin's playing system is flawed defensively, others think it was just a bad day at the office. They could well be right.
There are not too many teams out there with enough quality at the moment to take advantage of it possibly only Donegal and maybe a resurgent Kerry in the future.

I think what is certain is hunger is the primary requisite for success. It wouldn't surprise me to see Dublin mop the floor with Donegal (if they win the final) next year. System or no system. The curse of the reigning champions is hard to overcome.

BonnieSituation

Past30Now wrote: »

Absolutely agree that the better team won, but I don't feel as badly as I did after those two defeats. In both of those cases I came away feeling miles away from an All Ireland win. When the bookies open the book for the 2015 championship we'll be favourites, and rightly so. No team, including Donegal, will consider themselves favourites against us.

Yesterday was a lesson for us. Some of the mistakes we made won't be repeated. I'm positive about the future. Costello, Jack, Mannion etc will have another years football played. Most if not all of the current squad will still be available to us. There's a bunch of players who'll be looking to impress in the club championship and the O'Byrne Cup. Watson, Reddin, McHugh all made positive impressions earlier this year and will be chomping at the bit next year.

I think the passage of time has numbed any residual annoyance at 2008 and 2009 and to be fair that disgrace of 2010 came afterwards.

Dublin are in a great place. We've lost 2 Championship matches in 4 years, both in SFs and we won 2 AIs as well. We'll get over this hump handily.

K-9 wrote: »

Yep, it was nearly as if we didn't bother with breaking ball between the 15th and 25th minutes, it was that bad!



It was noticeable about us all season, when Antrim came back at us and more importantly when Monaghan and Armagh goaled, the team never looked rattled. The Gaelic Life blog picked up on it today as well.

The other thing was discipline. I commented on it after the Ulster Final, we gave away needless frees but I knew Jim would have them schooled again on that. In that first 25 minutes we gave away no easy frees so that 0-9 could easily have been 0-12, effective damage limitation. We were good at that in 2012 and 11. There isn't much you can do when Flynn and Connolly are knocking them over but you can limit scoreable frees.

Saying that about Armagh, I was in a hoop watching ye as I do love how ye play the game so naturally I wanted ye to beat that Orchard shower but on subsequent reflection it seemed that there's a confidence in the team that "the scores will come". It reminds me of Dublin last year.

---

With Mayo having a new management team, Geezer taking over in Armagh and
of course Tyrone being Tyrone I think that 2015 is going to be some year again. Can't bloody well wait.

brian_gall85

The one stat that surprised me from yesterdays game, especially in the opening half, was the amount of time that Dublin went between scores. They had TWO separate 10 minute spells in the opening 35' where they failed to register a single score...this after a free scoring opening 10 minutes or so.

Pinesky

I think all talk of superior strategy and systems is hyperbole .
Brogan/Connolly goaling and Enright being sent off would have given a dublin v mayo .
Its the small things that catch you up.

Nidgeweasel

K-9 wrote: »

I remember that, it was looking ominous at the time, we basically didn't even contest the kick out. Still can't really figure out what happened. They just seemed to go back to basics, settle into their rhythm after that, get the interceptions and counter on the break and maybe as Liam Hayes wrote, suddenly found their All Ireland winning form and belief, something that none of Dublins opponents up to now had.

People say Dublin went too attacking too early in the 2nd half, but they were very naive in those last 10 minutes of the first half. Donegal would always get a good spell, the priority should have been containing it.

I missed yesterday so had to settle for the tv. From my perception we struggled with Big Neil inside and things started to turn when Christi came on for Walsh and Neil was brought back in around the middle. As I said, I wasn't at it is it may have in reality been slightly different. It took us a while get settled aswell.
We also made silly errors in good positions too like the two dropped short and the poor ball across from the right when someone was free inside.

Dr. Bre

just shows how hard it is to win back to back all Irelands.. Dublin were never unbeatable but form going into this game meant they had to be favs. nonsense talk they thought they were in the final already. only the media and fans come up with that stuff.

soundcrowd

Dr. Bre wrote: »

just shows how hard it is to win back to back all Irelands.. Dublin were never unbeatable but form going into this game meant they had to be favs. nonsense talk they thought they were in the final already. only the media and fans come up with that stuff.

Nonsense talk, Dublin never thought they were in the final, any team that has got to the semi's has obviously proved themselves somewhat to get there.

The media may have wound it up, but that's not Dublin's fault. Any older Dublin fan never thinks a game is a given after the '92 final.

EunanMac

Happyman42 wrote: »

Amazed to see this Spillane bolixology still being spouted on the Irish TImes website.


"Jim Gavin outwitted by Jim McGuinness. Dublin committed too many players into the Donegal half and McGuinness's men could exploit the large, unguarded space in front of the Dublin goal. Dublin's full back line looked a little bogey since the Laois game, but apart from that, many of Dublin's marquee players didn't perform e.g. Bernard Brogan. Dublin scored about 4 points within the first 5-6 minutes and it looked like a rout was forthcoming. Happily, a number of scuffles and 'injuries' to Donegal players calmed the game at this juncture, stymieing the Dublin attack. It's very difficult to play against a team like Donegal, who at times only had two players in the Dublin half for much of the first half and the rest of the team in the box in front of theirs. Once they built up a lead, they could indeed afford to be more adventurous but I thought their cynical tactics were annoying. If Donegal go on to beat Kerry, then Gaelic football is going to decline as a sport into some horrible spectacle. "


Donegal brought much much more than that to a great game of football. Sour grapes obscuring the view of a game that has done a lot for gaelic games imo.

What would you expect from the "Shiite" commentator ?

mickmackey1

Spillane seemed to have changed his tune later on the radio, gave Donegal plenty of praise.

I'd have to say Michael Murphy has already done enough to walk into any team that ever played the game, what a man.

BonnieSituation

Just finished watching the first half there again. I have to say for a neutral it was some game to watch. I rarely enjoy Dublin matches when I'm at them and need to re-watch them.

I said it yesterday that from the moment Connolly went down after the first 20 that's when the game started to head towards Donegal. It's only on the re-watch that I realised that that's when Christy Toye came on. Completely transformed the match.

We all know Spillane is brutal and lines like "If Donegal go on to beat Kerry, then Gaelic football is going to decline as a sport into some horrible spectacle" are just bordering on mental. Yesterday was a fabulous game and watching it again is confirming it.

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A couple of notes on the first half though. Cooper was very very poor and should have been subbed before HT. O'Gara actually did well when he came back into the HF line the couple of times he did.
I was a bit harsh on McFadden in my initial assessment, he wasn't so bad and did great for the first goal.

Out of all of the decisions made by the ref in the first half the free awarded to Leo McLoone that actually led to the first goal was a bad decision and in fact should have been a free to Dublin for over carrying. That is to say Donegal shouldn't have scored a goal from it. Fitzsimons was completely at fault for it in my eyes taking the catch and then losing concentration on Michael Murphy of all players.

Odhran MacNiallas, Toye and McHugh were immense.

Diarmuid Connolly was superb.

Paul Flynn is a frankly unbelievable player. He is one of the best I've ever seen.

RTÉ HT analysis coming up...

realweirdo

Yeh Pat, like we'd prefer to watch Kerry lump it into the big man for 70 minutes and hope at least a couple of chances come from from that, ala Jack Charlton style of football. No thank you. Donegal and Dublin were a joy to watch on Sunday.

BonnieSituation

It's getting late and there's 20min to go so I'll finish it over breafast tomorrow.

But at this juncture I will say:

Gavin made huge errors keeping COS, Fitz and Philly on. How Fitz wasn't subbed is beyond me. He was woful for all three goals. Not good enough.

Even at this stage of the game (50min) I had the feeling that the game had gone from us and yet Connolly and Flynn kept on going. They were immense. Proud of them like you wouldn't believe.

Flynn is POTY. No question.

McGuinness used his subs superbly. McBrearty was phenomenal when he came on.

And a final note about Spillane's HT analysis; he actually said he was enjoying the game and thought Donegal were good. I have no idea what he's taking.

Stay tuned in the morning.