Beef in Crisis

Coonagh

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Your properly right, But
No need to sound so smug about your fellow farmers predicament.
I certainly hope I'm not sitting here this time next year asking you how does it feel now that the shoe is on the other foot.
a loss making enterprise is a loss making enterprise regardless of whether it's dairy or beef.
Very childish comment really outta ya.
Ah well sure, Farming snobbery is never to far away I spose.

Didn't mean to come across smug so I do apologise for that, but it is the truth. I've been there and lost my shirt on one too many occasions with beef cattle and it was sentiment that nearly put me out of farming for good

John_Rambo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is as simple as this, it matter little where you decide to buy your meat, or any Irish person in fact

What can the concerned consumer do to genuinely help?

Believe it or not there's a huge amount of people (myself included) that thought buying from the local butcher was the right thing to do! I do it because the meat tastes better and because I thought I was supporting farmers by not buying in supermarkets that squeeze the supplier.

Myself and my family are very keen cooks. We are fussy about where our food comes from.

When I go abroad, I don't eat beef, cause it never matches up to what we get at home. I rarely even order beef in a restaurant because I do a better job of cooking it at home.

Genuine question. I want to help in my own small way.

sandydan

Coonagh wrote: »

The worst year dairying will always beat the best year beef farming no contest and the only thing keeping the suckler cow in irish agriculture is SFP and sentiment. There I said it let the onslaught begin!

no! its not! imo by following advice given by other interested parties, its dairy farmers breeding extreme non dual variety calf imo. if dairy farmer bred a dual purpose calf at 3 weeks old he'd probably fetch around €300 in recent weeks.a nice sideline for any dairy farmer and AI research would produce the dual purpose cow that would compete favourably with extreme holstein over a period no problem.some award winning holstein cow men blame farmers for purchasing and importing extreme holstein breeds from continent that now require crossbreeding with Jersey to correct issues. some while back factories wanted bull beef when it became available they refused to take it. they sell prime beef in supermarkets , that satisfy customer requirement and the carcass it come best from they penalize farmers for producing ie under 270 kg deadweight
.
sheep farmers have more than a little reason to feel aggrieved imo . a recent survey of lamb product in Dublin found other meats had been included , not listed in ingredients . i printed link to it in a post a while back,it was published in Irish Independant,. imo the only way producers will get paid for producing requirement specified is with consumers being involved and informed of developments in positive way

Farmer Pudsey

SeanSouth wrote: »

Your information is way off the mark on Brazil.

Brazil is the biggest beef exporter in the world followed only by India and Australia. Last year beef exports increased 18% year on year. The government has placed massive efforts in improving the quality of beef for export. Lot of dreamers on here I'm afraid.

However Brazil is expanding after 3-4 years from 2009 when exports declined. Australia exports have surged over last 18 months due to drouth conditions in it main cattle producing regions. India has expanded beef production by it ability to export halal type beef something we are unable to comply with.

None of these are competing with us on the European market and would struggle with quality demands.

Willfarman

John_Rambo wrote: »

What can the concerned consumer do to genuinely help?

Believe it or not there's a huge amount of people (myself included) that thought buying from the local butcher was the right thing to do! I do it because the meat tastes better and because I thought I was supporting farmers by not buying in supermarkets that squeeze the supplier.

Myself and my family are very keen cooks. We are fussy about where our food comes from.

When I go abroad, I don't eat beef, cause it never matches up to what we get at home. I rarely even order beef in a restaurant because I do a better job of cooking it at home.

Genuine question. I want to help in my own small way.

Super post. And a pleasure to read. You are also supporting a small local business rather than those terrible faceless multinational retailers.

Coonagh

sandydan wrote: »

no! its not! imo by following advice given by other interested parties, its dairy farmers breeding extreme non dual variety calf imo. if dairy farmer bred a dual purpose calf at 3 weeks old he'd probably fetch around €300 in recent weeks.a nice sideline for any dairy farmer and AI research would produce the dual purpose cow that would compete favourably with extreme holstein over a period no problem.some award winning holstein cow men blame farmers for purchasing and importing extreme holstein breeds from continent that now require crossbreeding with Jersey to correct issues. some while back factories wanted bull beef when it became available they refused to take it. they sell prime beef in supermarkets , that satisfy customer requirement and the carcass it come best from they penalize farmers for producing ie under 270 kg deadweight
.
sheep farmers have more than a little reason to feel aggrieved imo . a recent survey of lamb product in Dublin found other meats had been included , not listed in ingredients . i printed link to it in a post a while back,it was published in Irish Independant,. imo the only way producers will get paid for producing requirement specified is with consumers being involved and informed of developments in positive way

When you say dual purpose are you talking about dairy simmentals or something similar?

Willfarman

Coonagh wrote: »

When you say dual purpose are you talking about dairy simmentals or something similar?

I wouldn't even ask for dual purpose. Just hope dairy farmers stay wit the more common strain of Holstein that isn't the white coloured extreme high yielding type that is being pushed. Or the jersey cross. The male progeny of these type are worthless IMO.

John_Rambo

Willfarman wrote: »

Super post. And a pleasure to read. You are also supporting a small local business rather than those terrible faceless multinational retailers.

We already get our pig meat direct from a farm. The pigs are roaming outside, we pay almost double the price. It's worth it. I can't see us justifying almost double the cost on beef and we buy cheap (tasty) cuts like skirt. But I'd love to make a move that would support the farmers.

sandydan

John_Rambo wrote: »

What can the concerned consumer do to genuinely help?

Believe it or not there's a huge amount of people (myself included) that thought buying from the local butcher was the right thing to do! I do it because the meat tastes better and because I thought I was supporting farmers by not buying in supermarkets that squeeze the supplier.

Myself and my family are very keen cooks. We are fussy about where our food comes from.

When I go abroad, I don't eat beef, cause it never matches up to what we get at home. I rarely even order beef in a restaurant because I do a better job of cooking it at home.

Genuine question. I want to help in my own small way.

you are in my opinion supporting the farmer producing prime quality beef . butchers i know source locally from farmers whose animals customers have remarked favourably towards when they come back "next week" . the bone of contention is caused by factories penalizing farmers for producing the carcass from which they source their most saleable and expensive (to consumer) beef which is sold in supermarkets, this beef comes from animals that are below a set weight that factories penalize farmers for supplying as they classify it as an under weight carcass. farmers also suffer financial loss when factories change specifications at short notice, thus preventing farmers getting a good price matching production costs of supplying animals factories said previously they required.

John_Rambo

sandydan wrote: »

you are in my opinion supporting the farmer producing prime quality beef . butchers i know source locally from farmers whose animals customers have remarked favourably towards when they come back "next week" . the bone of contention is caused by factories penalizing farmers for producing the carcass from which they source their most saleable and expensive (to consumer) beef which is sold in supermarkets, this beef comes from animals that are below a set weight that factories penalize farmers for supplying as they classify it as an under weight carcass. farmers also suffer financial loss when factories change specifications at short notice, thus preventing farmers getting a good price matching production costs of supplying animals factories said previously they required.

So, we'll just keep doing what were are doing and don't accept below par meat I guess?

Who the fook supplies Fallon & Byrnes in Dublin??? It's phenomenally expensive but the beef is stunning stunning stunning. Tightly packed, the ribs are fairly short, the meat is compact and round in shape. The fat is like butter, marbled, tender and very tasty. You're looking at €40+ for a three rib roast on the bone. Great for xmas or easter, but not every weekend!

sandydan

Coonagh wrote: »

When you say dual purpose are you talking about dairy simmentals or something similar?

maybe i had a few dairy simmentals crossbreed cows think they were off Dolfie a Castisland AI bull, was advised to try a few straws by a west cork cheese producer who claimed they were worth 12p gallon in extra protein and butterfat in those pre Euro days, think he said they produced around 1800 gallons/ Autumn calving.
a lot of research and development has to be put into dual purpose animal production.Dovea produced reasonably high yielding british freisan cow that were dual purpose imo.but its something that cannot be developed overnight, however i think and maybe its unfair to accuse certain interests of hampering research by crossbreeding gentics etc to develop an alternative to extremes of milk producing holstein without the fertility problems and bony frame normally associated with such animals. i tried Norweigan Reds but found them not as good as Holstein , had 6 lovely Brown Swiss in calf heifers due to calf when depopulated by BSE, are like hols when milking but like Ch a bit when fat.problem one chap had with them is laziness, if in hurry milking

sandydan

Willfarman wrote: »

I wouldn't even ask for dual purpose. Just hope dairy farmers stay wit the more common strain of Holstein that isn't the white coloured extreme high yielding type that is being pushed. Or the jersey cross. The male progeny of these type are worthless IMO.

with present levels of research and development i agree with you totally.however with availability of sexed semen for breeding replacements if suitable type animal was available financial gain would prompt you to try one or two its non availabilty of dual purpose that keeps suckler cow alive. other wise shortly after calving she be dried, fattened and sent to factory, rearing calf to 15 month beef or as replacement in lieu of feeding cow for 12 months to calve annually,firing good money after bad.

sandydan

John_Rambo wrote: »

So, we'll just keep doing what were are doing and don't accept below par meat I guess?

Who the fook supplies Fallon & Byrnes in Dublin??? It's phenomenally expensive but the beef is stunning stunning stunning. Tightly packed, the ribs are fairly short, the meat is compact and round in shape. The fat is like butter, marbled, tender and very tasty. You're looking at €40+ for a three rib roast on the bone. Great for xmas or easter, but not every weekend!

i heard of them on Rte radio 1 one day, its a special product as far as i can remember,but unfortunately cannot remember details of rearing, curing etc,:) enjoy

jaymla627

Willfarman wrote: »

I wouldn't even ask for dual purpose. Just hope dairy farmers stay wit the more common strain of Holstein that isn't the white coloured extreme high yielding type that is being pushed. Or the jersey cross. The male progeny of these type are worthless IMO.

Hate to burst your bubble but to a lot of dairy lads bull calves are a nuisance and no way factor into his thinking of what cow they want to have,your argument about dual purpose cows is laughable, its been done already, back in the 1990s rotbunts where being pushed as the dual purpose breed to suit irish dairy farmers, the reality was they turned about to be horrible milking cows that didnt last pissing time with no milk and poor fertility.
Totally agree with you re dairy bull calves what needs to happen to tighten up the numbers of these calves is a) export them and b) have your bobby calf truck coming like in new zealand and make them into dog food

sandydan

jaymla627 wrote: »

Hate to burst your bubble but to a lot of dairy lads bull calves are a nuisance and no way factor into his thinking of what cow they want to have,your argument about dual purpose cows is laughable, its been done already, back in the 1990s rotbunts where being pushed as the dual purpose breed to suit irish dairy farmers, the reality was they turned about to be horrible milking cows that didnt last pissing time with no milk and poor fertility.
Totally agree with you re dairy bull calves what needs to happen to tighten up the numbers of these calves is a) export them and b) have your bobby calf truck coming like in new zealand and make them into dog food

id say judging by publicity generated by that practice in new zealand that practice will come to an abrupt end in next few years. cant remember rotbunt except problem with sunburn, mountebellard , normende ,dairy simmentals and brown swiss or swiss brown.. my opinion on the research on those i wont print

whelan2

with sexed semen though aren't the days of these calves numbered, i am assuming most farmers will use a certain amount of sexed dairy semen and then beef breeds to clean up

jaymla627

sandydan wrote: »

id say judging by publicity generated by that practice in new zealand that practice will come to an abrupt end in next few years. cant remember rotbunt except problem with sunburn, mountebellard , normende ,dairy simmentals and brown swiss or swiss brown.. my opinion on the research on those i wont

Would highly doubt it will, their is no other alternative out their to deal with these calves unless farmers are by law made rear them which wont happen, the practice of shooting bull calves at birth isnt just a new zealand thing its widespread in England as well

_Brian

whelan2 wrote: »

with sexed semen though aren't the days of these calves numbered, i am assuming most farmers will use a certain amount of sexed dairy semen and then beef breeds to clean up

Has to be a good strategy.
Te only problem I see is the prices for beef bred sucks.
Buying sucks at 2-3 weeks is fine but at strong prices and mortality rates seen with some farms it's going to be just as unprofitable as suckler to beef for many lads.

In recent spring sales the prices paid for beef breed sucks was staggering. Lads throwing out €400+ a head for sucks under 3 weeks is just as unprofitable as suckler production methods. Even HEX heifers, I was asked €325 a head at two weeks in the spring for them ex farm with no movement, there was another lad waiting after me who paid it without issue. As my dad used to say " you can buy gold too dear If your not careful".

mf240

Nothing wrong with friesan bull calves. Its the jerseys that are the problem.

whelan2

mf240 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with friesan bull calves. Its the jerseys that are the problem.

i dont think there is any good je sexed semen yet, any je i used i got bull calves:mad:

Milked out

whelan2 wrote: »

i dont think there is any good je sexed semen yet, any je i used i got bull calves:mad:

I still think sexed semen will take time to take off. It will have to improve for widespread usage to be maintained year on year as one year where a bad result comes with messing up the calving interval will stop lads/ladies from using it again esp in Ireland where compact early calving is important for majority of herds if not all herds profitability

severeoversteer

John_Rambo wrote: »

So, we'll just keep doing what were are doing and don't accept below par meat I guess?

Who the fook supplies Fallon & Byrnes in Dublin??? It's phenomenally expensive but the beef is stunning stunning stunning. Tightly packed, the ribs are fairly short, the meat is compact and round in shape. The fat is like butter, marbled, tender and very tasty. You're looking at €40+ for a three rib roast on the bone. Great for xmas or easter, but not every weekend!

ill take a wild guess but it could be meat from dexter cattle, they are a small irish breed
http://www.dextercattle.ie/Home.html

sandydan

whelan2 wrote: »

with sexed semen though aren't the days of these calves numbered, i am assuming most farmers will use a certain amount of sexed dairy semen and then beef breeds to clean up

if that was case id say days of suckler cows were numbered ,dual purpose calf or beef off dairy would be cheaper to purchase rather than suckler cow fed to calf once per year, for those breeders id wonder would price come very close to dairy calf for replacements provided factories didn't scuttle the business for everyone by changing the goalposts again.
that could go some way to alleviate Ireland's green house gas penalty which Greens (imo) in EU are trying to target the dairy industry with.
btw does anyone here remember the introduction of holstein breed into ireland, bet not. remember seeing tv programme shoeing fine holstein bulls( and some of their progeny) destined for factory , as milk produced from daughters was less than 900 gallons annually, if around today i recon they would compete favourably with the best of beef animal carcass, that's my opinion of them anyway.

_Brian

Was talking to an auld buck earlier and the way he sees it we shouldn't be trying to bend the will of the factories by negotiation or even picketing. He says that the problem originates on the farms and farmers themselves have the solution.
His thinking was most lads are barely breaking even, farmers need to unite and drop beef numbers by 20-25%. Create a demand and the factories will pay, anytime on the past cattle have been scarce he said prices rose, the key is not to ramp up production in the face of better prices as this is where we are now.
I agreed with him partly because I see his logic but the biggest problem with his plan surely has to be the sheer numbers of dairy heifers being calved down this coming spring.

Will the effect of reduced suckler numbers next spring be offset by more dairy-beef numbers ?

whelan2

_Brian wrote: »

Has to be a good strategy.
Te only problem I see is the prices for beef bred sucks.
Buying sucks at 2-3 weeks is fine but at strong prices and mortality rates seen with some farms it's going to be just as unprofitable as suckler to beef for many lads.

In recent spring sales the prices paid for beef breed sucks was staggering. Lads throwing out €400+ a head for sucks under 3 weeks is just as unprofitable as suckler production methods. Even HEX heifers, I was asked €325 a head at two weeks in the spring for them ex farm with no movement, there was another lad waiting after me who paid it without issue. As my dad used to say " you can buy gold too dear If your not careful".

wondering are the guys who paid silly money for these calves the same people who are complaining of no money in beef. Btw sold 2 aa heifer calves out of yard for 140 today

Damo810

_Brian wrote: »

Was talking to an auld buck earlier and the way he sees it we shouldn't be trying to bend the will of the factories by negotiation or even picketing. He says that the problem originates on the farms and farmers themselves have the solution.
His thinking was most lads are barely breaking even, farmers need to unite and drop beef numbers by 20-25%. Create a demand and the factories will pay, anytime on the past cattle have been scarce he said prices rose, the key is not to ramp up production in the face of better prices as this is where we are now.
I agreed with him partly because I see his logic but the biggest problem with his plan surely has to be the sheer numbers of dairy heifers being calved down this coming spring.

Will the effect of reduced suckler numbers next spring be offset by more dairy-beef numbers ?

The biggest problems is farmers will never unite together, and you'll never get them to agree either. Even worse still if you got half of the farmers in this country to decrease production the other half would up it, no doubt. It's not a permanent solution either, given most lads would hope to raise production, not decrease.

Going forward there will be a lot more beef coming from the dairy herd, thats something we have to adjust too, but I don't think the suckler herd will die out like some imagine. So overall, I see more beef in this country than we currently have. If that is the case, can we stand for prices to drop further?

Also dairy farmers won't go back to a dual purpose cow for the sake of an extra €150 on a calfs head (if that) when the decrease in milk value would be far great than that. Surely that is obvious already when you see how common is on dairy cows compared to other beef breeds. Dairy farmers want milk from the cow, anything extra is great. At the end of the day the calf is a by product unless your getting bulls into AI like a few on here are, it would seem to be a nice pocket filler then

Is there any more markets for calf exports that we're not fully exploiting?

Farmer Pudsey

whelan2 wrote: »

wondering are the guys who paid silly money for these calves the same people who are complaining of no money in beef. Btw sold 2 aa heifer calves out of yard for 140 today

Not entirely. One of the big issue's id suckler prodgney. To keep a suckler cow a weanling needs to be worth 800+ at 6 months. This is possible with export type animals, however accross allother sucklers it is not viable. A 360 kg contenintal at 4/kg is worth 1440. even at 4.5/kf he comes into 1620 euro. Is it viable to produce such an animal. HE and AA schemes are hardly viable for such cattle either.

If we go back to dairy cross cattle lads paying over 300 euro for 4 week old HE and contenintal calves are subsidising dairy farmers. You have to look at the tail of the animal and say is there a margin there for me and how much is that margin.
Paying 350 for a he calf that at 26 months will kill 350 kgs@ 4/kg leaves 1400 euro. That leaves 1050 to carry that animal from 4 weeks to 26 months. I do not think it is possible to achieve a margin of 400 off that animal. Maybe killg such an animal at 280kgs at 18-20 months may be more viable however Auntmn prices are often too low.

The biggest issue at present and lads do not relise it is the absent of a viable market for bulls especially for O grade bulls ar FS2+. This swallowed a lot of these cattle at 22 months of age. It made it viable to buy same at 6 months at 400 euro if you got a price of 4.2 and they killed over 320kgs it gave you a value of 1350 and the animal was on the farm for 15 months. However that market is well and truly gone leaving us struggleing to find a viable alternative for dairy bred calves.

THe biggest thing about beef over next 2-3 years as dairy farmers exit the business and concentrate on milking cows will be that lads start to adjust the value of the calf to what he is a byproduct of the system

whelan2

Was talking to guy who takes my fr bull calves they are still exporting 2-300 most weeks

mf240

whelan2 wrote: »

Was talking to guy who takes my fr bull calves they are still exporting 2-300 most weeks

What kind of money are friesan bull calves at the moment.

whelan2

mf240 wrote: »

What kind of money are friesan bull calves at the moment.

60 euro not br/fr but not anorexic either