The Jonny Sexton contract saga official thread

former legend

As the suggestion of our illustrious mod.

Joe.ie are reporting that Midi Olympique have reported that Sexton reportedly has until 15th September to make his decision.

Buer

Lets all use this one to annoy awec.

former legend

Oops, sorry awec.

awec

Damn you.

.ak

In fairness this one has a lot more cooler people posting in it, and a poll.

awec

I think he'll take it.

Where does this leave the IRFU? They will effectively be in a position where they either stump up the cash (that they probably don't have) or change their policy on talent staying in Ireland to something like "you must stay in Ireland to play for Ireland unless you're really good".

.ak

To be honest, I don't think it's complicated for the IRFU. They'll tell him they want him back, they'll offer him a single figure, and he'll make his choice. It isn't the end of the world if he doesn't come back, they'll have thought they survived without him last year, so...

awec

.ak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think it's complicated for the IRFU. They'll tell him they want him back, they'll offer him a single figure, and he'll make his choice. It isn't the end of the world if he doesn't come back, they'll have thought they survived without him last year, so...

It's the impact on their "must stay in Ireland" policy more than anything in the scenario where he doesn't come home.

If they continue to pick Sexton after that then they may as well just throw the policy out the window for our top players. What's to stop Conor Murray for example being next?

Larbre34

awec wrote: »

It's the impact on their "must stay in Ireland" policy more than anything in the scenario where he doesn't come home.

If they continue to pick Sexton after that then they may as well just throw the policy out the window for our top players. What's to stop Conor Murray for example being next?

Yeah this. I said it in the Leinster thread, the gun needs to be put to Sexton's head for the sake of the whole model of the pro game in Ireland.

.ak

awec wrote: »

It's the impact on their "must stay in Ireland" policy more than anything in the scenario where he doesn't come home.

If they continue to pick Sexton after that then they may as well just throw the policy out the window for our top players. What's to stop Conor Murray for example being next?

Nothing. But I think Munster without Murray would be a lot worse than Leinster without Sexton. We all thought there would be an exodus after Sexton, but there wasn't. Most players want to stay in Ireland, and most players get a fair slice of the cake, Sexton was just dicked around and that was more the reason than the financial aspect.

You'd imagine when Murray signed his most recent deal the IRFU dealt with it better. Plus he's got youth on his side, and was prudent in signing a two year contract.

Buer

But there is not policy, as FL pointed out elsewhere. It's just beneficial for guys trying to break through to be in Ireland. Sexton and Bowe are the only established players that have gone abroad and it hasn't impacted on their involvement or performances whatsoever. If anything, Sexton has just turned in his best ever season in green.

The IRFU might just reckon that he's a burden on their balance sheet that can be someone else's problem and, to date, everyone has been a winner.

.ak

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yeah this. I said it in the Leinster thread, the gun needs to be put to Sexton's head for the sake of the whole model of the pro game in Ireland.

But why? The IRFU will look at the fact Sexton left and the world didn't end. Infact, they saved money.

awec

.ak wrote: »

Nothing. But I think Munster without Murray would be a lot worse than Leinster without Sexton. We all thought there would be an exodus after Sexton, but there wasn't. Most players want to stay in Ireland, and most players get a fair slice of the cake, Sexton was just dicked around and that was more the reason than the financial aspect.

You'd imagine when Murray signed his most recent deal the IRFU dealt with it better. Plus he's got youth on his side, and was prudent in signing a two year contract.

It has only been 1 year. I think the concern is more long term than that.

Larbre34

.ak wrote: »

But why? The IRFU will look at the fact Sexton left and the world didn't end. Infact, they saved money.

Fair enough. It would however, be a very different story provincially and internationally if 5 or 6 more key players followed suit. The provinces need big gates at bread and butter matches and people come out to see Murray, Bowe, Healy, Zebo, RK, O'Brien etc. All people who will probably be courted at their next renewals.

Riskymove

awec wrote: »

or change their policy on talent staying in Ireland to something like "you must stay in Ireland to play for Ireland unless you're really good".

thats always actually been the policy

Keith Wood, Paul Wallace, Tommy Bowe etc

former legend

awec wrote: »

Where does this leave the IRFU? They will effectively be in a position where they either stump up the cash (that they probably don't have) or change their policy on talent staying in Ireland to something like "you must stay in Ireland to play for Ireland unless you're really good".

Hasn't that always been the policy though? Tommy Bowe didn't suffer from playing with the Ospreys, Simon Easterby and Geordan Murphy likewise and now Sexton is the same.

You'd do far more damage to the national team by excluding your best players from selection than you would by having them playing abroad.

Neil3030

Why does it benefit the national side to have our players all in Ireland? For example, I'm pretty sure if we shipped all of our players off to New Zealand or Australia at a young enough age, while ensuring they declare for ireland, our national side would be far stronger.

Don't get me wrong, I would be as sad as anyone to see the provincial game fall by the wayside, but if the IRFU are fixated on this idea that a strong national side requires all players to play in Ireland, they could find themselves needlessly haemorrhaging resources to fund this ideal which could ultimately make negligible difference.

I can see the point that successful provinces may raise the game's profile, thereby increasing player numbers, which would help the national side. But could the millions saved by not offering big contracts to the top 5-10 players not do a much better job in this context via grassroots? Or to take it another way, if said millions are spent, grassroots can only suffer.

They really need to think about whether this is blinkered "sonny don't go away" thinking, or a practice that can directly strengthen their showpiece.

awec

Neil3030 wrote: »

Why does it benefit the national side to have our players all in Ireland? For example, I'm pretty sure if we shipped all of our players off to New Zealand or Australia at a young enough age, while ensuring they declare for ireland, our national side would be far stronger.

Don't get me wrong, I would be as sad as anyone to see the provincial game fall by the wayside, but if the IRFU are fixated on this idea that a strong national side requires all players to play in Ireland, they could find themselves needlessly haemorrhaging resources to fund this ideal which could ultimately make negligible difference.

I can see the point that successful provinces may raise the game's profile, thereby increasing player numbers, which would help the national side. But could the millions saved by not offering big contracts to the top 5-10 players not do a much better job in this context via grassroots? Or to take it another way, if said millions are spent, grassroots can only suffer.

They really need to think about whether this is blinkered "sonny don't go away" thinking, or a practice that can directly strengthen their showpiece.

It strengthens the provinces.

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

It strengthens the provinces.

Gee, you think?

The line that gets trotted out time and time again is that we need our players in Ireland for the good of the national side.

Larbre34

Neil3030 wrote: »

Gee, you think?

The line that gets trotted out time and time again is that we need our players in Ireland for the good of the national side.

unnecessarily smarmy I'm sure, but the reality of the IRFU model is that the fortunes of the national and provincial sides generally rise and fall together.

Winters

One caveat in this is his wife Laura who is a secondary school teacher. They are allowed up to 5 years of a career break. If she wanted to return to her profession she would need to tell the DOE this before April 2018 or she would lose her permanent position. The four year deal would take her beyond that.

I'm sure all this talk is Fintan Drury trying to play the IRFU and Lorenzetti off eachother.

former legend

awec wrote: »

It strengthens the provinces.

But Neil's question is how that strengthens the national side. That link is far from clear IMO.

Could you not argue that having 5 or 6 top players abroad creates gaps at the provinces for more, younger players to get top-level exposure? Or that it can be good for individual players to experience a different environment? (cf Tommy Bowe)

I don't think we have enough professional teams to enforce a "stay in Ireland" rule.

I say offer him what they can. He has a lot of personal reasons to come back by the sounds of things.

thebaz

Neil3030 wrote: »

Why does it benefit the national side to have our players all in Ireland?

Much easier to organise training , conditioning and planning when all players are based locally - particularly the micro training and rest - theres not much the IRFU can do when players are based in France and tied to a big club , except when back for internationals. Look at all the difficulties Argentina and South sea islanders have had down the years. Plus the 10 is really the key player in any team , and Johnny is at the heart of this Irish team.

molloyjh

former legend wrote: »

Hasn't that always been the policy though? Tommy Bowe didn't suffer from playing with the Ospreys, Simon Easterby and Geordan Murphy likewise and now Sexton is the same.

You'd do far more damage to the national team by excluding your best players from selection than you would by having them playing abroad.

Exactly. I don't know why this is suddenly a big deal when we've always had national players playing abroad.

Neil3030 wrote: »

Gee, you think?

The line that gets trotted out time and time again is that we need our players in Ireland for the good of the national side.

They are easier to manage and coordinate if they are all working in and for an Irish province.

razorblunt

I think this is an open and shut case for him, he'll be back in Dublin for the 2015-2016 season.
We all know it wasn't an easy decision to make for him in the first place leaving, but his recent comments are very much in the "come and get me" category IMHO.

Zzippy

razorblunt wrote: »

I think this is an open and shut case for him, he'll be back in Dublin for the 2015-2016 season.
We all know it wasn't an easy decision to make for him in the first place leaving, but his recent comments are very much in the "come and get me" category IMHO.

More like the "I'm going to drop a few hints and see what Fintan can get going in a bidding war" category

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

More like the "I'm going to drop a few hints and see what Fintan can get going in a bidding war" category

He was never looking to get a bidding war going. He's always been up front in saying that he knew that the IRFU could never match what Racing were paying, but that wasn't an issue so long as they showed that they valued him. They didn't so he left. If they re-evaluate their position on it then it very much opens the door for him coming back. It really isn't all about the money.

awec

I'd say it's money and security. It's a short career. He doesn't strike me as the sort of guy who'd suit TV after retirement and he won't make that sort of money as a coach. An extra few years in France will set him up well for moving home post-retirement, or even for a last few years of cameo appearances for Leinster.

He's just been guaranteed big bucks by Racing for an extra 4 years. If the IRFU can guarantee him a good salary for the same length of time then he may come home. Otherwise I think he'll stay put. I don't think he's looking to be cuddled by the IRFU to show how much they love him, the guy just wants to get the best deal for him and his family.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

He was never looking to get a bidding war going. He's always been up front in saying that he knew that the IRFU could never match what Racing were paying, but that wasn't an issue so long as they showed that they valued him. They didn't so he left. If they re-evaluate their position on it then it very much opens the door for him coming back. It really isn't all about the money.

It wasn't a criticism in any way, he'd be a fool not to try to obtain the maximum remuneration possible for his services. He has an agent who is well versed in playing clubs off against each other to get the best deal for his clients. Think about it like this - if he says he's thinking about moving back, Leinster/IRFU perk up and think about stumping up more than their offer last year to tempt him, and Racing get worried and offer him a lucrative 4-year deal. A few leaks to the media from Drury helps that process along. It might not be all about the money, but really, it's all about the money...

spillit67

former legend wrote: »

Hasn't that always been the policy though? Tommy Bowe didn't suffer from playing with the Ospreys, Simon Easterby and Geordan Murphy likewise and now Sexton is the same.

You'd do far more damage to the national team by excluding your best players from selection than you would by having them playing abroad.

Murphy was ignored for a while.

Bowe, Sexton and Wood all came over from Ireland where as Murphy started his adult career in England. Though none of the circumstances for those three are the same and even now looking back on the policy of a few years ago for future indication isn't correct.

bilston

Didn't his wife just have a wee boy? I've nonidea what their family set up is but from my own experience having a good family support network around when bringing up kids is a good thing to have so maybe that might be a factor for him to consider

Podge_irl

spillit67 wrote: »

Murphy was ignored for a while.

No he wasn't, EOS just (rightly imo) rated Dempsey ahead of him. Murphy was still making squads etc.

Teferi

Murphy has 70 - 80 caps for Ireland. Accusations of his being ignored have been grossly over exaggerated over the years. That's an outstanding haul especially considering he was competing with Dempsey for the spot.

twinytwo

awec wrote: »

It's the impact on their "must stay in Ireland" policy more than anything in the scenario where he doesn't come home.

If they continue to pick Sexton after that then they may as well just throw the policy out the window for our top players. What's to stop Conor Murray for example being next?

If there wasn't a world cup around the corner they might be tempted to tell him no international rugby.

But I dunno about you, if we are to have any chance we need sexton to play.

Thus their hands are tied, either match the France offer which they can't or go to a WC with Jackson/madigan.

Breaking the bank isn't an option either. What are the gonna do when the likes of sob,Murray,Healy,pom contracts come up for renewal.

vienne86

I think the IRFU should offer him as much as they can - make a good offer and not mess him around like they dd last time. It would be great to have him back in Ireland and Ireland need him badly for the World Cup. Then it'll be his choice. He is not that young, and was late enough in to the big time, so he will want to maximise his earnings in the next few years, but needs to balance that with family life. He's a smart cookie - I admire him hugely and really hope he does well out of whatever he decides.

vang

The plot thickens!

French giants Toulon have joined the race to secure Jonathan Sexton to a multi-million euro deal which would see him stay in France until 2019 – as well as becoming the highest-paid Irish player of all time.

And, as Racing Metro confirmed that they have set a deadline of September 15th for the 29-year-old to finalise a decision on his future, the prospects of the former Leinster favourite returning home now seem as distant as ever.

former legend

I've only seen that reported in the Indo, citing "reports from France", but I haven't seen any actual reports from France. I don't think Toulon are a factor here at all.

vang

Source is intheloose.com

.ak

Toulon would be mad not to offer him something.

phog

vang wrote: »

Source is intheloose.com

Which links the Indo article.

Fwiw, I'd be shocked if Racing were the only French club interested in Sexton.

IMHO, Sexton won't be coming home for money, family life and possibly some loyalty to Joe might be the deciding factor in coming home.

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

IMHO, Sexton won't be coming home for money

Well he'll get at least €250k gross more a year in France plus I think I'm right in saying that tax is lower in France.

Toulon are linked to everyone so any mention of them has to be taken with a pinch of salt. It does make sense however with the players they have out of contract.

Racing will have a new ground in 2016 and Lorenzetti isn't going anywhere. His wealth dwarfs Boudjellal's.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

Well he'll get at least €250k gross more a year in France plus I think I'm right in saying that tax is lower in France.

Which is why I said he won't be coming home for money.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

Well he'll get at least €250k gross more a year in France plus I think I'm right in saying that tax is lower in France.

Which is why I said he won't be coming home for money.

former legend

What?

NoelJ

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Despite the pay rise, I don't think Sexton will be overly enthused about the prospects of being second choice kicker at Toulon. Unless Murray undertakes the kicking duties at Munster (very unlikely) and excels, it may damage Sexton's long-term international prospects; it could accelerate the promotion of Jackson/A. N. Other to first choice Irish outhalf.

None of those players are near Sexton.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Well he'll get at least €250k gross more a year in France plus I think I'm right in saying that tax is lower in France.

Toulon are linked to everyone so any mention of them has to be taken with a pinch of salt. It does make sense however with the players they have out of contract.

Racing will have a new ground in 2016 and Lorenzetti isn't going anywhere. His wealth dwarfs Boudjellal's.

Even when you take the Irish rebate into account?

leeroybrown

Max Freezing Tangent wrote: »

Even when you take the Irish rebate into account?

The Irish rebate is 40% of tax paid over a ten year period. It's easy to forget that Sexton was a very late bloomer and really only hit the "big time" at the very end of the 2008/2009 season when Contepomi got injured. He's 29 now and hasn't built up nearly the same amount of tax to rebate as most other Irish internationals so leaving and earning a much bigger salary elsewhere makes sense for him when it doesn't for most other players.

leeroybrown

leeroybrown wrote: »

The Irish rebate is 40% of tax paid over a ten year period. It's easy to forget that Sexton was a very late bloomer and really only hit the "big time" at the very end of the 2008/2009 season when Contepomi got injured. He's 29 now and hasn't built up nearly the same amount of tax to rebate as most other Irish internationals so leaving and earning a much bigger salary elsewhere makes sense for him when it doesn't for most other players.

That's not really what I was asking, I'm wondering if in a given year if the tax rate in France would be lower than in Ireland if you account for the rebate.

If he could get 400k per annum from the IRFU he'd be eligible to about 60k of a rebate p.a. which is a lot of money no matter what way you cut the dice. And he has basically said himself he'd rather be playing in Ireland.

phog

Max Freezing Tangent wrote: »

That's not really what I was asking, I'm wondering if in a given year if the tax rate in France would be lower than in Ireland if you account for the rebate.

If he could get 400k per annum from the IRFU he'd be eligible to about 60k of a rebate p.a. which is a lot of money no matter what way you cut the dice. And he has basically said himself he'd rather be playing in Ireland.

He'd also be paying 7% USC on that 400k which is probably not covered in the rebate

leeroybrown

Max Freezing Tangent wrote: »

That's not really what I was asking, I'm wondering if in a given year if the tax rate in France would be lower than in Ireland if you account for the rebate.

If he could get 400k per annum from the IRFU he'd be eligible to about 60k of a rebate p.a. which is a lot of money no matter what way you cut the dice. And he has basically said himself he'd rather be playing in Ireland.

Sorry for the confusion. Without doing an exact calculation if getting the approximate €650k - €700k figures mentioned in the media he'd be taking home around €400k net in France. There's no way that the IRFU can compete with that tax rebate or no tax rebate.