Moving out, landlord wants to deduct cleaning and lightbulbs

seabhcan

I'm looking for some advice on the rules around rent security deposits. We've moved out after nearly 5 years renting. Never missed a rent payment, never had a dispute.

I cleaned the house extensively on the day we moved out and left it spotless (in my opinion anyway).

The landlord contacted me after to say the house wasn't sufficiently clean and he wants to deduct the price of a cleaning company and the cost of new lightbulbs from my security deposit. About €100 total.

The amount isn't really a killer - its just annoying really. Can the landlord really deduct the price of lightbulbs from the depost?

I looked on the boards, and on the prtb.ie site, but there is nothing specific about it.

Doom

Are there missing/ inoperative light bulbs in the house?

the_syco

seabhcan wrote: »

The landlord contacted me after to say the house wasn't sufficiently clean and he wants to deduct the price of a cleaning company and the cost of new lightbulbs from my security deposit. About €100 total.

Ensure the landlord provides you with receipts, as I can't see €100 paying for a lot of cleaning.

seabhcan

Doom wrote: »

Are there missing/ inoperative light bulbs in the house?

Yes.

drumswan

Christ, I would be absolutely furious if this was me. If this is Dublin you've likely paid him 50 grand plus in rent and he wants to charge you for lightbulbs.

Under no circumstance accept the deduction for lightbulbs.
Inform him you will require receipts for any cleaning work carried out professionally. He cannot bill you for his own time either.
Let him know in no uncertain terms that any other outcome will result in a complaint lodged against him via the PRTB.

seabhcan

drumswan wrote: »

Christ, I would be absolutely furious if this was me. If this is Dublin you've likely paid him 50 grand plus in rent and he wants to charge you for lightbulbs.

Closer to 100k actually.

Doom

seabhcan wrote: »

Yes.

Why didn't you replace them, it would have been the right thing to do and sensible.

You had working bulbs when you moved in, when u leave there should be working bulbs.

seabhcan

Doom wrote: »

Why didn't you replace them, it would have been the right thing to do and sensible.

I would have thought that a few blown light bulbs would fall under normal wear and tear.

drumswan

seabhcan wrote: »

I would have thought that a few blown light bulbs would fall under normal wear and tear.

Of course it does, a lightbulb does not last 5 years, you will no doubt already have replaced some of these at your own expense.

Next he'll be charging you for the portion of the battery life you used up in the smoke alarms and wear and tear to the washers in the taps.

damienirel

drumswan wrote: »

Christ, I would be absolutely furious if this was me. If this is Dublin you've likely paid him 50 grand plus in rent and he wants to charge you for lightbulbs.

Under no circumstance accept the deduction for lightbulbs.
Inform him you will require receipts for any cleaning work carried out professionally. He cannot bill you for his own time either.
Let him know in no uncertain terms that any other outcome will result in a complaint lodged against him via the PRTB.

Hang on, I think a little bit of common sense is needed here.
1. How many bulbs were blown? - If i was a landlord and I called over to check my property(at night) and a load of bulbs are blown I'd be seriously annoyed.

2. Where were the bulbs blown? Were they in strategic areas - kitchen, living room? Put yourself in the landlords shoes he walks into his property to see you shuffling around in the dark not to mention that your house is probably dirty because you can't switch on a light to do a clean up?

3. Apply some common sense people - how much is a light bulb? or do you prefer the dark? Just picturing a dirty house/apt and some idiot sitting around in the dark.

Go to the PRTB but don't expect much sympathy there.

Doom

seabhcan wrote: »

I would have thought that a few blown light bulbs would fall under normal wear and tear.

You were stupid to give the landlord any reason to charge you.
Would you leave a battery out of a smoke alarm too?

Ihatecuddles

damienirel wrote: »

2. Where were the bulbs blown? Were they in strategic areas - kitchen, living room? Put yourself in the landlords shoes he walks into his property to see you shuffling around in the dark not to mention that your house is probably dirty because you can't switch on a light to do a clean up?

I agree with your point, but blown bulbs does not equal a dirty house. What's wrong with cleaning up during the day?

Even if we don't get home until 8pm there's still enough daylight to wash up after dinner and do a tidy up!

damienirel

mauzo! wrote: »

I agree with your point, but blown bulbs does not equal a dirty house. What's wrong with cleaning up during the day?

Even if we don't get home until 8pm there's still enough daylight to wash up after dinner and do a tidy up!

Who said there was windows in all the rooms??

mickdw

After long term rental, isn't it expected that a major clean and redecorate would be needed due to normal wear and tear?
I think the landlord is an ass hole.

anncoates

Landlord is being a twat but I'd probably just replace the bulbs to avoid a possibly drawn out fight about it.

Unless you've actually left some kind of stains or mess asking for cleaning money is taking the piss too.

damienirel

mickdw wrote: »

After long term rental, isn't it expected that a major clean and redecorate would be needed due to normal wear and tear?
I think the landlord is an ass hole.

Nobody mentioned a major clean or redecorate - doubt if €100 would get you either of those in Dublin anyways.

Ihatecuddles

damienirel wrote: »

Who said there was windows in all the rooms??

You're being silly now. You're assuming her house is dirty and she's bee wandering around in the dark.

I think we can assume there is windows, otherwise she probably would have bought light bulbs.

damienirel

mauzo! wrote: »

You're being silly now.

Have you ever lived in an apartment in dublin? You should try it and see how silly I actually am.

damienirel

mauzo! wrote: »

You're being silly now. You're assuming her house is dirty and she's bee wandering around in the dark.

I think we can assume there is windows, otherwise she probably would have bought light bulbs.

You're the one making all the assumptions even the one where we're talking about a female?

seabhcan

damienirel wrote: »

Hang on, I think a little bit of common sense is needed here.
1. How many bulbs were blown? - If i was a landlord and I called over to check my property(at night) and a load of bulbs are blown I'd be seriously annoyed.

2. Where were the bulbs blown? Were they in strategic areas - kitchen, living room? Put yourself in the landlords shoes he walks into his property to see you shuffling around in the dark not to mention that your house is probably dirty because you can't switch on a light to do a clean up?

3. Apply some common sense people - how much is a light bulb? or do you prefer the dark? Just picturing a dirty house/apt and some idiot sitting around in the dark.

Go to the PRTB but don't expect much sympathy there.

1/2. A few, in a 3 story 5 bed house. They are those annoying spotlight bulbs that never seem to last very long. There are 8 of them in the living room, of which maybe 3 were blown.

2) The house was not dirty. The landlord doesn't even claim the rooms with the blown bulbs are dirty. All rooms have windows (real questions?)

3) the question isn't whether the landlord needs to replace the bulbs. Its whether he has a right to make me pay for it.

drumswan

damienirel wrote: »

Hang on, I think a little bit of common sense is needed here.

Common sense is indeed required, absorbing the costs of normal wear and tear is part of the cost of doing business for a landlord. The notion that a business can pass on these costs directly to the customer is farcical and illegal.

Ihatecuddles

damienirel wrote: »

Have you ever lived in an apartment in dublin? You should try it and see how silly I actually am.

I have, I had windows in every room apart from the bathroom. During the day it was lit up by the window in the hall. Therefore it was always clean, even when a bulb was blown.

If she had no windows, I think it's safe to assume she would have bought bulbs....

We're gone off topic, but it makes zero sense to say that some bulbs were blown, so her apartment was dirty because she had no windows

damienirel

mauzo! wrote: »

I have, I had windows in every room apart from the bathroom. During the day it was lit up by the window in the hall. Therefore it was always clean, even when a bulb was blown.

If she had no windows, I think it's safe to assume she would have bought bulbs....

We're gone off topic, but it makes zero sense to say that some bulbs were blown, so her apartment was dirty because she had no windows

What makes zero sense is what you've just typed. Think the person(not sure what makes everybody assume gender) has just posted a response explaining the situation a little more since your post. And indeed he/she has windows.

If it needs explaining - if you don't have windows or lights you would not have light in the room - clear?

damienirel

seabhcan wrote: »

1/2. A few, in a 3 story 5 bed house. They are those annoying spotlight bulbs that never seem to last very long. There are 8 of them in the living room, of which maybe 3 were blown.

2) The house was not dirty. The landlord doesn't even claim the rooms with the blown bulbs are dirty. All rooms have windows (real questions?)

3) the question isn't whether the landlord needs to replace the bulbs. Its whether he has a right to make me pay for it.

From what you're saying it sounds like the landlord is being unreasonable.

Victor

mauzo! wrote: »

You're being silly now. You're assuming her house is dirty and she's bee wandering around in the dark.

I think we can assume there is windows, otherwise she probably would have bought light bulbs.

damienirel wrote: »

Have you ever lived in an apartment in dublin? You should try it and see how silly I actually am.

Less bickering please

Moderator

quadrifoglio verde

Op the best thing to do is let the landlord deduct, then bring it to the prtb, because I can tell you, he ain't going to have receipts for a professionally cleaning company, as they'll cost a lot more than 100 euro.
Don't mention receipts until after he goes to return the deposit.
Did you take photos of the house before leaving? If so, you can use these as proof that the house was clean?

damienirel

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Op the best thing to do is let the landlord deduct, then bring it to the prtb, because I can tell you, he ain't going to have receipts for a professionally cleaning company, as they'll cost a lot more than 100 euro.
Don't mention receipts until after he goes to return the deposit.
Did you take photos of the house before leaving? If so, you can use these as proof that the house was clean?

Totally agree. And for sure 100 euro is farcical for cleaning more like 300 min.

damienirel

damienirel wrote: »

Totally agree. And for sure 100 euro is farcical for cleaning more like 300 min.

Plus whats the worst that's going to happen you end up having to pay for cleaning and bulbs? Still probably cheaper than deposit - 1 month of your rent which i've worked out is approx €1670 a month

sarkozy

We don't know how clean/dirty the tenants left the house. A LL's rule of thumb would be presumably, 'can I let this place in this state? How much additional cleaning is required, and how much would that set me back?'. I think common sense needs to apply here.

Guaranteed, the LL is already thinking of the usual costs associated with the end of a long let: repainting, new beds/mattresses, new appliances, furniture, etc. That could run to over €1,000. Of course, LL's factor this into the costs of running their business, but just consider that perspective.

Perhaps the LL is being unfair, perhaps not. Perhaps the tenants did a good cleaning job, perhaps not.

In my experience, a small house (2 bed, city centre house/apartment) would cost around €60, so €100 is possibly not outlandish. Common sense applying, there may also be room to negotiate here if the judgement of what's clean/not clean is borderline.

Regarding the lights, I would personally feel that the LL should just suck this up. Unless they're specialty LED lights, how much can replacements cost? But I can also see it from the LL's perspective that you just neglected to replace lights while living there, which is the responsibility of the LL to provide initially, just leaving them to blow, waiting for the LL to replace them, cynically pushing the cost onto the LL. Again, perhaps common sense and a compromise should prevail.

Otherwise, you can bring issues to the PTRB. You may not win, of course. You'd need to communicate with the LL in writing regarding these issues and, presumably, have some form of photographic evidence to support your case. Whether it's worth the effort is another thing. But you don't necessarily need to trust the LL, so maybe he *is* chancing his arm over the costs, which is why a compromise approach can be better, and do demand receipts.

quadrifoglio verde

sarkozy wrote: »

We don't know how clean/dirty the tenants left the house. A LL's rule of thumb would be presumably, 'can I let this place in this state? How much additional cleaning is required, and how much would that set me back?'. I think common sense needs to apply here.

Guaranteed, the LL is already thinking of the usual costs associated with the end of a long let: repainting, new beds/mattresses, new appliances, furniture, etc. That could run to over €1,000. Of course, LL's factor this into the costs of running their business, but just consider that perspective.

Perhaps the LL is being unfair, perhaps not. Perhaps the tenants did a good cleaning job, perhaps not.

In my experience, a small house (2 bed, city centre house/apartment) would cost around €60, so €100 is possibly not outlandish. Common sense applying, there may also be room to negotiate here if the judgement of what's clean/not clean is borderline.

Regarding the lights, I would personally feel that the LL should just suck this up. Unless they're specialty LED lights, how much can replacements cost? But I can also see it from the LL's perspective that you just neglected to replace lights while living there, which is the responsibility of the LL to provide initially, just leaving them to blow, waiting for the LL to replace them, cynically pushing the cost onto the LL. Again, perhaps common sense and a compromise should prevail.

Otherwise, you can bring issues to the PTRB. You may not win, of course. You'd need to communicate with the LL in writing regarding these issues and, presumably, have some form of photographic evidence to support your case. Whether it's worth the effort is another thing. But you don't necessarily need to trust the LL, so maybe he *is* chancing his arm over the costs, which is why a compromise approach can be better, and do demand receipts.

After 5 years, I'd be expecting to do a decent clean and repaint, whether the tenants left the place spotless or not. Tge

seabhcan

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

After 5 years, I'd be expecting to do a decent clean and repaint, whether the tenants left the place spotless or not. Tge

Would you deduct the cost of that from the deposit of the outgoing tenant?

cpoh1

I would be looking to meet the landlord and have him outline exactly what parts of the house need to be cleaned and offer to complete yourself. If you let him take your money you are unlikely to get it back, PRTB or not.

Thargor

seabhcan wrote: »

1/2. A few, in a 3 story 5 bed house. They are those annoying spotlight bulbs that never seem to last very long. There are 8 of them in the living room, of which maybe 3 were blown.

2) The house was not dirty. The landlord doesn't even claim the rooms with the blown bulbs are dirty. All rooms have windows (real questions?)

3) the question isn't whether the landlord needs to replace the bulbs. Its whether he has a right to make me pay for it.

They sell those bulbs in Aldi, 2 for a fiver.

seabhcan

Thargor wrote: »

They sell those bulbs in Aldi, 2 for a fiver.

Ya. You'd think the 100k in rent I paid would have covered it.

sarkozy

Yeah, you're right. You think it's a case of the LL just passing the cost of this onto the tenant. I guess, in that case, it sounds really unreasonable.

I guess I was just saying, in a roundabout way, that we don't know the full situation enough to dive a definitive answer.

Thargor

seabhcan wrote: »

Ya. You'd think the 100k in rent I paid would have covered it.

That was the rent on the property, I think my landlord would laugh at me if I asked him for lightbulb money to replace ones that were working when I moved in.

seabhcan

Thargor wrote: »

That was the rent on the property, I think my landlord would laugh at me if I asked him for lightbulb money to replace ones that were working when I moved in.

That works both ways surely.

pawrick

Ask him to meet with you at the house to go over what exactly required cleaning outside of normal wear and tear over 5 years.
Some landlords I had over the years tried to do the same thing by default it seems- he's leaving it at an amount small enough so that it probably isn't worth the hassle for you to argue about it but it might not be worth it for him either at the first sign of you making an issue over it.

Light bulbs I would have replaced though as it's a small thing and you have been living there using them or at least I would have said to the LL that you were busy cleaning etc but never got around to getting them replaced before moving out and let him decide if he wants to try to charge you.

Weyhey

Seems very odd. Did you take photos when moved in and more importantly when you left? I always do in case of any disagreements.
I would say the landlord probably got a shock at the normal wear and tear after 5 years of renting. There is no way I would pay for the cleaning if it wasn’t in the lease and I have left the house in proper shape. But ring Threshold and the PRTB to check if LL can do this.

As for the light bulbs, they could have been fine when you left and just went before or when landlord was there they went.
I agree unless there was over half the house without bulbs then after 5 years there should be no need for you to replace them.

damienirel

Thargor wrote: »

That was the rent on the property, I think my landlord would laugh at me if I asked him for lightbulb money to replace ones that were working when I moved in.

Yeah good point. When you move into a gaff with nice recessed lights and they all worked I'm sure you were thinking - oh this is a nice gaff with nice recessed lights. Now that the buggers are blown I think it would seem reasonable you replace them. As an earlier poster said a twin pack cost a fiver in aldi.
You need to weigh up whether it's worth hassle of debating this with prtb?

ted1

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Op the best thing to do is let the landlord deduct, then bring it to the prtb, because I can tell you, he ain't going to have receipts for a professionally cleaning company, as they'll cost a lot more than 100 euro.
Don't mention receipts until after he goes to return the deposit.
Did you take photos of the house before leaving? If so, you can use these as proof that the house was clean?

hassle.com 12 euro an hour for a cleaner, day 6 hours= €72 allow €28 for lights =€100

the tenant should replace lamps if they blow. Lamps have a life cycle, like toilet paper, if you use it, then there is none left.

damienirel

A quick google brought up this - it's uk based but seems reasonable.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repairs_and_bad_conditions/responsibility_for_repairs/repairs_in_rented_homes_-_whos_responsible_for_what

Tiddlypeeps

The law states that reasonable wear and tear is expected during any tenancy and the tenant is not responsible for paying for this to be brought back up to scratch. Unfortunately what constitutes as reasonable isn't defined so some landlords will take the piss and charge for whatever they can get away with.The PRTB more often than not sides with the tenant in these cases because the onus is on the landlord to provide the evidence and most are pretty terrible at providing this. I've never had a landlord have me sign an inventory list on moving in for example. I wouldn't allow him to get away with it, even if the place wasn't spotless it's a dick move after such a long tenancy.

quadrifoglio verde

seabhcan wrote: »

Would you deduct the cost of that from the deposit of the outgoing tenant?

I'm not a ll but my parents are and would always paint, clean etc when a new tenant is moving in. They'd never deduct from the deposit for it though, they'd just rather the tenant moved into somewhere that was clean and fresh as opposed to somewhere that the previous tenant and given an ok cleaning to.

damienirel

Here's the conclusion I've come to:

1. You should replace the bulbs - think Landlord is within his rights here.

2. Cleaning - very grey area - think they would need proof in the form of pictures etc for this.

cerastes

Would the OP or anyone move into a house where the landlord refused to provide bulbs?? people would be ranting like mad on here.

If they were there when they arrived then they should be replaced, like for like.
If they were energy saving bulbs, then the replacement cost can add up. Ive used cheaper energy efficient bulbs at home and they either didnt have the same light or life as more expensive ones.

Best thing here would be if the landlord put in cheap filament bulbs and recommends the tenant use energy efficient bulbs if they want and then leave working what they arrived to.

I can see situations both where a landlord might try scam a tenant for made up things and a tenant who thinks they are being smart by taking out bulbs.
If this is a few filament bulbs then the landlord is being an ass, if its LED bulbs or halogen bulbs missing or a significant amount not working, then I think they are right to charge, I bought a load of bulbs on sale for my own home and the cost would have added up at 12.99 per bulb normally, you wouldnt have any change out of 100.

No matter what is normal wear and tear, the contract is to pay the rent, this does not mean they can leave as they see fit. Ive seen tenants leave kitchens filthy with grease (from never cleaning) and try claim it was clean, I wouldnt try pass that off to another tenant and I wouldnt cleanup after someone like that again, as I have previously.

damienirel

cerastes wrote: »

Would the OP or anyone move into a house where the landlord refused to provide bulbs?? people would be ranting like mad on here.

If they were there when they arrived then they should be replaced, like for like.
If they were energy saving bulbs, then the replacement cost can add up. Ive used cheaper energy efficient bulbs at home and they either didnt have the same light or life as more expensive ones.

Best thing here would be if the landlord put in cheap filament bulbs and recommends the tenant use energy efficient bulbs if they want and then leave working what they arrived to.

I can see situations both where a landlord might try scam a tenant for made up things and a tenant who thinks they are being smart by taking out bulbs.
If this is a few filament bulbs then the landlord is being an ass, if its LED bulbs or halogen bulbs missing or a significant amount not working, then I think they are right to charge, I bought a load of bulbs on sale for my own home and the cost would have added up at 12.99 per bulb normally, you wouldnt have any change out of 100.

No matter what is normal wear and tear, the contract is to pay the rent, this does not mean they can leave as they see fit. Ive seen tenants leave kitchens filthy with grease (from never cleaning) and try claim it was clean, I wouldnt try pass that off to another tenant and I wouldnt cleanup after someone like that again, as I have previously.

Yeah agree. Simple rule of thumb(and be honest with yourself first) are you leaving the place the way you got it? Maybe you're not and you'll have to suck it up.

seabhcan

damienirel wrote: »

Yeah agree. Simple rule of thumb(and be honest with yourself first) are you leaving the place the way you got it? Maybe you're not and you'll have to suck it up.

Of course, after 5 years, its not exactly how I got it. The microwave, for example, it probably on the way out as its now 5 years older and they don't last that long. Had it died a week ago it would have been the landlords responsibility to replace it. Time passes, things get older.

Yet its generally accepted that the passage of time is not the responsibility of the tenant.

damienirel

seabhcan wrote: »

Of course, after 5 years, its not exactly how I got it. The microwave, for example, it probably on the way out as its now 5 years older and they don't last that long. Had it died a week ago it would have been the landlords responsibility to replace it. Time passes, things get older.

Yet its generally accepted that the passage of time is not the responsibility of the tenant.

Yeah but the Landlord didn't charge you for the microwave - So I don't get your point?

seabhcan

damienirel wrote: »

Yeah but the Landlord didn't charge you for the microwave - So I don't get your point?

So why charge for the light bulbs?

damienirel

seabhcan wrote: »

So why charge for the light bulbs?

Because they are something you would have needed yourself while you were there. And because they are cheap to replace unlike a microwave.

Also for the landlord to rent the place again quickly they would need to be working or somebody else viewing it might think the place was a dump if it had blown bulbs they generally wouldn't think a place was a dump if the microwave wasn't working.