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Abortion For Men

  • 20-08-2014 03:38PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Engine No.9


    Not as daft as it sounds, but with thank in the news about abortion cases, recently, it got me thinking. Should there be provisions, whether here or anywhere else in the world, where men get to decide if a child is carried to term or not.

    If a couple become pregnant, even though they had decided that they didn't want any (more) children, the woman decides to keep the baby but the man decides he wants nothing to do with a pregnancy or child, does he have a case for insisting she get an abortion and should he take legal steps to ensure she gets one?

    Abortion is legal in this specific case.

    Discuss


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    It's the woman's body... she gets the final say - how about the man in question doesn't stick his dick in unprotected next time ?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,938 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    pajopearl wrote: »
    Not as daft as it sounds
    you failed to back up this claim with your subsequent ideas.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭geret


    pajopearl wrote: »
    Not as daft as it sounds, but with thank in the news about abortion cases, recently, it got me thinking. Should there be provisions, whether here or anywhere else in the world, where men get to decide if a child is carried to term or not.

    If a couple become pregnant, even though they had decided that they didn't want any (more) children, the woman decides to keep the baby but the man decides he wants nothing to do with a pregnancy or child, does he have a case for insisting she get an abortion and should he take legal steps to ensure she gets one?

    Abortion is legal in this specific case.

    Discuss

    it a few cases recently the man had to keep paying even though dna showed they weren't his. Cases in Canada and uk come to mind


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 49 Faux Socialist


    No. That sounds stupid. However, if it's the other way around, the man should automatically be the legal representative of the unborn child if there is a dispute whether a child is to be terminated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    There have been arguments for a 'legal abortion', i.e. the idea of the father signing all rights/responsibilities away if he doesn't want the child. He could never be pursued for maintenance etc. but could also never be in the child's life in any way.

    Actually forcing a pregnant woman to have an abortion against her will would be fúcking barbaric.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    pajopearl wrote: »
    Not as daft as it sounds

    Sounds daft. Is daft. It's not the man's body, so he shouldn't have the right to force a woman to (or not to) have an abortion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Engine No.9


    BeerWolf wrote: »
    It's the woman's body... she gets the final say - how about the man in question doesn't stick his dick in unprotected next time ?

    Accidents happen mate.

    Cases have been brought before where women have wanted to get abortions for whatever reason, and men have gotten injunctions stopping them from getting them so why can't the reverse be true.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,475 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    BeerWolf wrote: »
    It's the woman's body... she gets the final say - how about the man in question doesn't stick his dick in unprotected next time ?

    If the rights in the case of what happens if the woman gets pregnant are all hers, should all the responsibility to stop this (assuming that's what they want) also not be all the woman's?

    But on a more serious note, there's no way that the man having the right to force a pregnancy going to term or to force an abortion would ever be workable (cue a lot of comments here about how it's already the case, but you know what I mean) - nor would it be right. If the two people in question can't sort things out, the end case has to be that the woman has the right to the final decision.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,938 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    pajopearl wrote: »
    Cases have been brought before where women have wanted to get abortions for whatever reason, and men have gotten injunctions stopping them from getting them so why can't the reverse be true.
    examples?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    BeerWolf wrote: »
    It's the woman's body...she gets the final say

    This... Just this... Nothing else

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Dolbert wrote: »
    There have been arguments for a 'legal abortion', i.e. the idea of the father signing all rights/responsibilities away if he doesn't want the child. He could never be pursued for maintenance etc. but could also never be in the child's life in any way.
    I'd be all for this TBH.
    Actually forcing a pregnant woman to have an abortion against her will would be fúcking barbaric.
    +1000 D Beyond barbaric. Utterly daft.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    pajopearl wrote: »
    Not as daft as it sounds,
    pajopearl wrote: »
    If a couple become pregnant,

    Oh dear.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,938 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    women bear the considerable majority of the brunt of an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.
    some of the ideas expounded above sound like men wanting to shed the minority share of fallout that does land on them back onto the women.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,938 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I'd be all for this TBH.
    with or regardless of the woman's agreement?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    there's no way that the man having the right to force a pregnancy going to term.... would ever be workable

    Unfortunately many in Ireland dont accept this and we have a patriarchal theocratic approach to the issue where this effectively what is happening - the Man (AKA the state) is forcing pregancies to term through its laws and cultures.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I'd be all for this TBH.

    +1000 D Beyond barbaric. Utterly daft.

    Such cases have been reported in China where the couple couldn't afford the fine for their second child, so she's forced to the hospital for an abortion instead. It's (rightly!) regarded as a serious human rights abuse. How would it even be workable, have the woman be dragged kicking and screaming to the clinic? Beyond stupid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,475 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Unfortunately many in Ireland dont accept this and we have a patriarchal theocratic approach to the issue where this effectively what is happening - the Man (AKA the state) is forcing pregancies to term through its laws and cultures.

    The Irish abortion debate is a whole other thing that I'm not getting into. This specifically is about abortion for men, which is what I was talking about specifically. I was basically commenting on the assumption that abortion is legal and on-demand before getting to the "for men" part.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,528 ✭✭✭ShaShaBear


    Im all for a man being given the right to sign away his rights to a child so that he never has to pay maintenance but also cannot get visitation or stop the mother leaving the country etc.

    But allowing a man the right to tear a baby out of its mother's body, or forcing a woman to endure pregnancy and labour? Preposterous. Giving birth is traumatic and painful enough without the added depression of never wanting to do it and having no reward at the end of it!!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    women bear the considerable majority of the brunt of an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.
    True and hence I say her body her rules, however they also have far more choice than the man. They choose to keep the child, they can chose to abort, they can choose to put the kid up for adoption. Essentially they have more "ownership" of the child in law, while men have little or none.
    some of the ideas expounded above sound like men wanting to shed the minority share of fallout that does land on them back onto the women.
    I wouldn't call 20 years of financially and emotionally supporting a child you may not have wanted, or quite simply didn't want a minor share of the fallout. Those couple of divorce cases in the US where a man was forced to financially support a child that turned out wasn't even his is beyond crazy. Here's an idea luv maybe chase the bloke who wasn't your husband that knocked you up while you were married. Thankfully those case are very rare and naturally make the news but it beggars belief the courts found in favour of a judgement like that.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Men can, and do, walk away from pregnancies they have helped create all the time.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    with or regardless of the woman's agreement?
    Regardless TBH. If the man has no say at all before birth(and fair enough), why should women have the right to veto the man's wishes afterwards?

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Engine No.9


    examples?

    I know that in Florida as of 2011 anyway, fathers could apply for injunctions to stop abortions. I think amniocentesis may be needed to determine whether the complainant is in fact the father if the woman tries to stop the injunction by claiming he's not

    Can't upload a screenshot of it here but will when I get home. Failing that, I'll provide a link.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,938 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ShaShaBear wrote: »
    Im all for a man being given the right to sign away his rights to a child so that he never has to pay maintenance but also cannot get visitation or stop the mother leaving the country etc.
    people keep saying this; again, is this with or regardless of the woman's agreement?

    let's clarify this - except in *extremely* rare situations, the man did not conceive a child without any input from himself. but it's the man who should be given the option of washing his hands of the resulting pregnancy and birth?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 640 ✭✭✭PLUG71


    BeerWolf wrote: »
    It's the woman's body... she gets the final say - how about the man in question doesn't stick his dick in unprotected next time ?

    Have to strongly agree!

    Its the woman's choice as its her body!

    BTW i'm a male!!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,938 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Those couple of divorce cases in the US where a man was forced to financially support a child that turned out wasn't even his is beyond crazy. Here's an idea luv maybe chase the bloke who wasn't your husband that knocked you up while you were married. Thankfully those case are very rare and naturally make the news but it beggars belief the courts found in favour of a judgement like that.
    that's immaterial to the debate at hand. it may be a stupid situation, but it does not illuminate this discussion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Dolbert wrote: »
    There have been arguments for a 'legal abortion', i.e. the idea of the father signing all rights/responsibilities away if he doesn't want the child. He could never be pursued for maintenance etc. but could also never be in the child's life in any way.
    Able to link me some decent articles on this? Seems possible but I'm trying to wrap my head around everything that'd be involved. (e.g. would it involve the man having to prove that he took measures to avoid causing the pregnancy? how would that work?)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,574 ✭✭✭whirlpool


    pajopearl wrote: »
    Accidents happen mate.

    Cases have been brought before where women have wanted to get abortions for whatever reason, and men have gotten injunctions stopping them from getting them so why can't the reverse be true.

    Because the reverse is barbaric and psychopathic. Do you honestly believe there's anything to discuss? :confused:


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,938 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Regardless TBH. If the man has no say at all before birth(and fair enough), why should women have the right to veto the man's wishes afterwards?
    i'm still trying to get my head around this attitude.
    so men can do the 'well, we had consensual sex, and you have conceived my child, but i'm turning my back on you to deal with the physical, emotional, and financial fallout while i walk off into the sunset whistling contentedly'?

    and (some!) men claim they're the ones at a disadvantage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,475 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Able to link me some decent articles on this? Seems possible but I'm trying to wrap my head around everything that'd be involved. (e.g. would it involve the man having to prove that he took measures to avoid causing the pregnancy? how would that work?)

    I have a feeling that a lot of that would come down to "he said/she said".


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,441 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Absolutely as daft as it sounds, OP. More daft, if anything. Potentially redefines 'daft'...


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