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Marriage in two different countries

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  • 19-08-2014 4:37pm
    #1
    baudroc
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭


    Hello,

    I would like to know if it's possible to marry twice in two different countries and without being divorced.

    For example if I get married in France (civil union) this year, could I get married again in Ireland in few years or is it impossible ? Perhaps I can get married once in the city hall and the the next time in the church ?

    Thank you

    Paul
    Tagged:


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    #2
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    baudroc wrote: »
    Perhaps I can get married once in the city hall and the the next time in the church ?

    That would be a valid option - get married in a civil ceremony (town hall) in France and then get married in a church in Ireland. You just have to point out to the clergyman/woman in Ireland that you do not want to contract a civil wedding i.e. it will be a religious ceremony only.


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    #3
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    baudroc wrote: »
    Hello,

    I would like to know if it's possible to marry twice in two different countries and without being divorced.

    For example if I get married in France (civil union) this year, could I get married again in Ireland in few years or is it impossible ?

    If you are married in France then you cannot get married in Ireland without a getting a divorce first. This is because Ireland recognises marriages in France as the legal equivalent of a marriage here. and vice versa.

    baudroc wrote: »

    Perhaps I can get married once in the city hall and the the next time in the church ?

    Thank you

    Paul

    this wont work either. a marriage in church is normally registered as a civil marriage as well.


    The real question is why would you want to do this?


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    #4
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    coylemj wrote: »
    That would be a valid option - get married in a civil ceremony (town hall) in France and then get married in a church in Ireland. You just have to point out to the clergyman/woman in Ireland that you do not want to contract a civil wedding i.e. it will be a religious ceremony only.

    Is it actually possible to do that? If you are already married civilly would a church let you have a religious marriage?

    All of this is presuming the intention is for a different partner for each marriage.


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    #5
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Beano wrote: »
    this wont work either. a marriage in church is normally registered as a civil marriage as well.

    It will work, a marriage in a church for example doesn't have to include the civil ceremony. As long as you don't file any formal paperwork to the civic authorities, the state doesn't care. The marriage in France will be recognised as a legal marriage by the civic authorities here.


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    #6
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    coylemj wrote: »
    It will work, a marriage in a church for example doesn't have to include the civil ceremony. As long as you don't file any formal paperwork to the civic authorities, the state doesn't care. The marriage in France will be recognised as a legal marriage by the civic authorities here.

    which is why i said normally.


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    #7
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Beano wrote: »
    Is it actually possible to do that? If you are already married civilly would a church let you have a religious marriage?

    All of this is presuming the intention is for a different partner for each marriage.

    The situation in Ireland doesn't obtain everywhere, even in certain Catholic countries. For example when Grace Kelly married Prince Ranier in a very Catholic Monaco, they had to do a wedding in the town hall and then get married in the cathedral, they were completely separate ceremonies.


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    #8
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    coylemj wrote: »
    The situation in Ireland doesn't obtain everywhere, even in certain Catholic countries. For example when Grace Kelly married Prince Ranier in a very Catholic Monaco, they had to do a wedding in the town hall and then get married in the cathedral, they were completely separate ceremonies.

    My impression from the OP is that they proposed to get married civilly to one person and then get married later to another person in a church, assuming i have read their intentions correctly. I cannot see any church allowing this.


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    #9
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Beano wrote: »
    My impression from the OP is that they proposed to get married civilly to one person and then get married later to another person in a church, assuming i have read their intentions correctly. I cannot see any church allowing this.

    Hmmm, I see what you mean, didn't think he was investigating that angle.

    In the past I'm fairly sure that the church would have allowed it because to my knowledge they didn't recognise civil weddings. However it's likely that nowadays they take the view that they would be party to bigamy if they did facilitate a wedding involving someone married and not divorced even though there's no way they can check if you're married or not and the crime of bigamy would probably only arise if the married party filled out the state paperwork associated with the 'wedding'.


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    #10
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    baudroc wrote: »
    Hello,

    Perhaps I can get married once in the city hall and the the next time in the church ?

    Thank you

    Paul

    The Catholic Church does not conduct marriage ceremonies independently of the state in any country. When a religious marriage is concluded at the altar the couple must immediately go to the sacristy [behind the altar usually] and then sign the civil register.


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    #11
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    DecStone wrote: »
    The Catholic Church does not conduct marriage ceremonies independently of the state in any country. When a religious marriage is concluded at the altar the couple must immediately go to the sacristy [behind the altar usually] and then sign the civil register.

    Completely not true. In France the church wedding is not recognised by the state. See my post above (#7) re Princess Grace, the same applied when her daughter Princess Caroline got married.

    In the 1960s a large number of Irish couple got married in Lourdes and being Irish, they were not aware that you needed to contract a separate civil ceremony in order for the 'wedding' to be recognised by the civil authorities back here. Several years later it came to light that in the eyes of the Irish state, they were not married and as you can imagine, this gave rise to major issues to do with succession etc. To my knowledge, a special law had to be passed retrospectively recognising the church weddings.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/james-downey-marriages-are-best-made-on-earth-not-in-heaven-26765476.html


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    #12
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    coylemj wrote: »

    In the past I'm fairly sure that the church would have allowed it because to my knowledge they didn't recognise civil weddings.

    The Church never allowed such a practice. Since the introduction of civil marriages in the 19th century that church ceremony has always consisted of a religious ceremony and then the signing of the civil register.


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    #13
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    DecStone wrote: »
    The Catholic Church does not conduct marriage ceremonies independently of the state in any country. When a religious marriage is concluded at the altar the couple must immediately go to the sacristy [behind the altar usually] and then sign the civil register.

    I dont think that is universal though. In some countries a couple must have a civil wedding and then a church wedding.


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    #14
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    DecStone wrote: »
    The Church never allowed such a practice. Since the introduction of civil marriages in the 19th century that church ceremony has always consisted of a religious ceremony and then the signing of the civil register.

    Are you forgetting about the grey area involving people who secured a church annulment in the days before civil divorce?

    Didn't the Catholic church allow them to get married in a second ceremony even though in the eyes of the state that would have been a bigamous wedding and clearly could not have been registered with the registrar of marriages?


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    #15
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_marriage#Countries_with_mandatory_civil_marriage


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    #16
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,220 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    DecStone wrote: »
    The Catholic Church does not conduct marriage ceremonies independently of the state in any country. When a religious marriage is concluded at the altar the couple must immediately go to the sacristy [behind the altar usually] and then sign the civil register.

    Is that entirely true? Pre 1995, persons who had previously obtained a Catholic church annulment but who couldn't benefit from a civil divorce could he remarried in the Catholic Church - in fact this (and the hypocritical aspects of this) were the feature of a series of storylines in Glenroe - subsequently upon recognition of the earlier foreign divorce, a civil marriage was undertaken by one if the characters on the basis that the church marriage had no legal validity.

    If the OP was prep panning this, I suspect it would invalidate both marriages.


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    #17
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    coylemj wrote: »
    Completely not true. In France the church wedding is not recognised by the state. See my post above (#7) re Princess Grace, the same applied when her daughter Princess Caroline got married.

    In the 1960s a large number of Irish couple got married in Lourdes and being Irish, they were not aware that you needed to contract a separate civil ceremony in order for the 'wedding' to be recognised by the civil authorities back here. Several years later it came to light that in the eyes of the Irish state, they were not married and as you can imagine, this gave rise to major issues to do with succession etc. To my knowledge, a special law had to be passed retrospectively recognising the church weddings.


    I am referring to what the church practice is. The church marriage ALONE is not recognized by the state yes, the civil marriage must be there also. But the church conforms to both. That is what I am saying. The church does not operate alone.

    As regards the Irish and Lourdes there was confusion because in Ireland this would have been taken care of by the church by the couple signing the civil register immediate following the church ceremony, in the church itself.

    In the US where there were interracial laws against certain marriages it was customary for Catholic priests to travel with the couple to a state that recognised such marriages and conduct both ceremonies there. The church recognised interracial marriage but had to go to a state where the civil laws did also.


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    #18
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    DecStone wrote: »
    I am referring to what the church practice is. The church marriage ALONE is not recognized by the state yes, the civil marriage must be there also. But the church conforms to both. That is what I am saying. The church does not operate alone.

    As regards the Irish and Lourdes there was confusion because in Ireland this would have been taken care of by the church by the couple signing the civil register immediate following the church ceremony, in the church itself.

    In the US where there were interracial laws against certain marriages it was customary for Catholic priests to travel with the couple to a state that recognised such marriages and conduct both ceremonies there. The church recognised interracial marriage but had to go to a state where the civil laws did also.

    you said previously
    The Catholic Church does not conduct marriage ceremonies independently of the state in any country. When a religious marriage is concluded at the altar the couple must immediately go to the sacristy [behind the altar usually] and then sign the civil register.

    This is the part that is being disagreed with. It may be the case in Ireland but is not generally the case elsewhere.


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    #19
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    DecStone wrote: »
    I am referring to what the church practice is. The church marriage ALONE is not recognized by the state yes, the civil marriage must be there also. But the church conforms to both. That is what I am saying. The church does not operate alone.

    What about people who got a church annulment and remarried in a Catholic church without a civil divorce?
    DecStone wrote: »
    As regards the Irish and Lourdes there was confusion because in Ireland this would have been taken care of by the church by the couple signing the civil register immediate following the church ceremony, in the church itself.

    But this didn't happen in France - can you say why not given your earlier claim that there is no country where the Catholic ceremony does not include the civil wedding?
    DecStone wrote: »
    The Catholic Church does not conduct marriage ceremonies independently of the state in any country.


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    #20
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,220 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    The Catholic Church in Ireland can and does act independently of the state vis a vis marriage. My brother and his wife married in the US; the local priest in Dublin refused to bless the marriage and required a full marriage ceremony on the basis that until they had full catholic marriage rites they were not married in the eyes of the church. This was 2004.


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    #21
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    BTW, I investigated the situation in the US for a colleague a few years ago, she wanted to make sure that the Catholic wedding she had planned in Florida would be recognised by the Irish state when she came home. Marriage in the US is regulated by the individual states so the question to be determined was whether the Catholic wedding would be recognised by the State of Florida or if she would need to go to the town hall to be married in a parallel civil ceremony as is required in countries like France which enforce complete separation of Church and State.

    It turned out that it wasn't the US Catholic church that needed approval but rather that the individual priest was certified and approved for the conduct of civil marriages in which case the Catholic ceremony was capable of doubling up as both a religious and civil marriage as happens in Ireland.


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    #22
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    coylemj wrote: »
    Are you forgetting about the grey area involving people who secured a church annulment in the days before civil divorce?

    Didn't the Catholic church allow them to get married in a second ceremony even though in the eyes of the state that would have been a bigamous wedding and clearly could not have been registered with the registrar of marriages?

    The church allowed them to marry in a church but they had to be conducted in a state that recognised divorce. So they had to leave Ireland to conduct even a religious ceremony. If they were married in Ireland under these conditions they would be breaking the church laws on marriage. Cannon Law specifically states that only those who are conforming to the civil law can be lawfully married in church.


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    #23
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    Marcusm wrote: »
    The Catholic Church in Ireland can and does act independently of the state vis a vis marriage. My brother and his wife married in the US; the local priest in Dublin refused to bless the marriage and required a full marriage ceremony on the basis that until they had full catholic marriage rites they were not married in the eyes of the church. This was 2004.


    You are confusing the civil and the religious ceremony. What you are quoting is a situation where a civil ceremony took place - the church does not recognise this as a 'full' marriage until a Catholic marriage takes place and not a mere 'blessing'. This would also be the case in Ireland if someone married civilly - they would have to go through with a complete Catholic marriage also for the church.

    This is not acting independently - this is requiring both for a marriage to be valid to the church.


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    #24
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    coylemj wrote: »
    BTW, I investigated the situation in the US for a colleague a few years ago, she wanted to make sure that the Catholic wedding she had planned in Florida would be recognised by the Irish state when she came home. Marriage in the US is regulated by the individual states so the question to be determined was whether the Catholic wedding would be recognised by the State of Florida or if she would need to go to the town hall to be married in a parallel civil ceremony as is required in countries like France which enforce complete separation of Church and State.

    It turned out that it wasn't the US Catholic church that needed approval but rather that the individual priest was certified and approved for the conduct of civil marriages in which case the Catholic ceremony was capable of doubling up as both a religious and civil marriage as happens in Ireland.

    It doubles up yes - but a civil register is signed so there is a civil record.


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    #25
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    coylemj wrote: »



    But this didn't happen in France - can you say why not given your earlier claim that there is no country where the Catholic ceremony does not include the civil wedding?

    I can't answer about individual mistakes that were made - but Canon Law is very specific about marriage laws and couples must conform to the civil laws of a country they are marrying in. Just to quote one requirement for a valid church marriage:

    An invalid church marriage is one "which cannot be recognised by the civil law or celebrated in accordance with it;"


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    #26
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    DecStone wrote: »
    The church allowed them to marry in a church but they had to be conducted in a state that recognised divorce. So they had to leave Ireland to conduct even a religious ceremony. If they were married in Ireland under these conditions they would be breaking the church laws on marriage. Cannon Law specifically states that only those who are conforming to the civil law can be lawfully married in church.

    That isn't what happened in the days when there was no divorce in Ireland. You couldn't just get a church annulment, hop on the boat to England, get a quickie divorce then get married for the second time in a Catholic church. Only relatively wealthy people were able to go to the UK and get divorced.

    As far as I recall, people who got an annulment were able to get married in a religious only wedding in Ireland, unless the marriage tribunal ruled that they were getting an annulment on the basis that they lacked the mental capacity to understand the contract of marriage.


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    #27
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    coylemj wrote: »

    As far as I recall, people who got an annulment were able to get married in a religious only wedding in Ireland,

    I can only quote to you on Canon law and what correct church teaching is - and your 'recall' might be inaccurate.

    I had a cousin who went over to the UK after a lengthy annulment and got a civil divorce and then remarried in a Catholic church there so it certainly wasn't only the rich doing it.


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    #28
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,360 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    DecStone wrote: »
    I can only quote to you on Canon law and what correct church teaching is - and your 'recall' might be inaccurate.

    Can you provide a link to the relevant provision in Canon Law?


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    #29
    Mr. Loverman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭Mr. Loverman


    Beano wrote: »
    If you are married in France then you cannot get married in Ireland without a getting a divorce first. This is because Ireland recognises marriages in France as the legal equivalent of a marriage here. and vice versa.

    Weird question, but do they check?

    If the OP gets married in France and then tries to marry his girlfriend in Ireland, he will get caught? In other words, there's some kind of worldwide marriage database every government uses?


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    #30
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    coylemj wrote: »
    Can you provide a link to the relevant provision in Canon Law?


    I don't have a link I actually have a personal copy but I'm sure it is available on line somewhere.

    I should explain, I was involved in the divorce referendum in the 1986 debacle and also the 1995 one. I was canvassing for the pro-divorce side so all these issues were hotly debated at the time. But the 1986 went down more on issues of property/land ownership/women's rights than anything else. But we did try to point out the number of people going abroad to be Catholic married because the state had fallen behind the church annulment process.


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    #31
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    I'm bowing out this. DecStone has continually ignored everything said to him.


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