Back to Education Allowance (BTEA) queries

CiaraBrady

Hi all,

I was wondering if you could answer a BTEA question for me.

In 2012 i was in a level 8 course and dropped out with no qualification. I recieved a grant also.

Since then I have been on Jobseekers Allowance and am now interested in doibd a course in GMIT but it is a level 7 course, do i qualify for BTEA?

Thank you in advance.

MyNameIsMethos

Yes

*Assuming that JSA is your only means of income & you have 9months unbroken JSA before the course.

CiaraBrady

So it doesn't matter that I did a higher level course and now I'm doing a lower one?

Moomat

I was in the local office yesterday applying for the BTEA and the lady said the rules have changed recently. A case worker now has to interview you and say yay or nay for your application.
The case worker interviewed me for about 15 mins and said that they are refusing lots of applications this year. At the end she confirmed she would endorse my application... Phew!

Worth dropping into your local office to make sure you get the most up to date info.

Fowler87

CiaraBrady wrote: »

Hi all,

I was wondering if you could answer a BTEA question for me.

In 2012 i was in a level 8 course and dropped out with no qualification. I recieved a grant also.

Since then I have been on Jobseekers Allowance and am now interested in doibd a course in GMIT but it is a level 7 course, do i qualify for BTEA?

Thank you in advance.

In a similar situation to you. Was also in a level 8 few years ago but didn't finish the degree but did receive the credits from year one of the level 8 2 year addon. About to do similar level 8 in GMIT this September but 1 year addon (not 2 like in AIT). Received a call from the social welfare Ballina yesterday querying this and I told them the story and that all I qualified with was a level 7 as I didn't get level 8. Basically they are looking for progression to show you are eligible for BTEA.

In your situation as assuming you have level 7 already, there might be some issues regarding BTEA, however, its not for me tell you the facts so best give them a call.

bizzyb

Moomat wrote: »

I was in the local office yesterday applying for the BTEA and the lady said the rules have changed recently. A case worker now has to interview you and say yay or nay for your application.
The case worker interviewed me for about 15 mins and said that they are refusing lots of applications this year. At the end she confirmed she would endorse my application... Phew!

Worth dropping into your local office to make sure you get the most up to date info.

I handed in my application last week and they said nothing about this, we're you interviewed when you went in or did you get an appointment?

Moomat

bizzyb wrote: »

I handed in my application last week and they said nothing about this, we're you interviewed when you went in or did you get an appointment?

Got the form from the office about 2 weeks ago and took it home to fill it in. Brought the form in yesterday and went up to the hatch to hand it in. The lady there explained that there was now a new form and I would have to fill that in instead. The new form is identical to old form except for some minor details, however, there is now an additional page on the rear where a case worker has to fill in after interviewing you and they include their opinion on whether you should be accepted onto the BTEA. I just filled in the form and joined the queue to see the case worker. She said she then passes on the form to a deciding officer who then makes the final decision.

nobodyknows

Moomat wrote: »

Got the form from the office about 2 weeks ago and took it home to fill it in. Brought the form in yesterday and went up to the hatch to hand it in. The lady there explained that there was now a new form and I would have to fill that in instead. The new form is identical to old form except for some minor details, however, there is now an additional page on the rear where a case worker has to fill in after interviewing you and they include their opinion on whether you should be accepted onto the BTEA. I just filled in the form and joined the queue to see the case worker. She said she then passes on the form to a deciding officer who then makes the final decision.

odd, that change might only be the case in your local welfare office, I applied with the usual form and two weeks later got approved, no interview

bizzyb

Moomat wrote: »

Got the form from the office about 2 weeks ago and took it home to fill it in. Brought the form in yesterday and went up to the hatch to hand it in. The lady there explained that there was now a new form and I would have to fill that in instead. The new form is identical to old form except for some minor details, however, there is now an additional page on the rear where a case worker has to fill in after interviewing you and they include their opinion on whether you should be accepted onto the BTEA. I just filled in the form and joined the queue to see the case worker. She said she then passes on the form to a deciding officer who then makes the final decision.

That's a strange one, I handed it in and all she said was you should have a decision in 2-3 weeks.

Moomat

Bizzyb,

I'd imagine you should be grand, especially if its gone through the channels already.

My office is Thomas Street in Dublin, seemed to be a good few people in the queue dor the interview for the BTEA.

Have to admit, it took me by surprise. After all the effort of securing a place on a degree, not getting the BTEA would make it fall apart.

Darth Floodric

moomat, are you now doing a level 5 or 6 even though you currently possess a qualification in these levels. If so that would make sense about the case officer interview.

Got this from their site.

* From June 2014 there has been a relaxation of the progression rule for level 5 and level 6 BTEA applicants in certain limited circumstances. Applicants who already hold a Level 5 or 6 qualification under the National Framework of Qualifications and who satisfy all the other scheme eligibility criteria may be allowed undertake further courses at either of these levels. Such cases must be referred to a Case Officer for their recommendation.

Moomat

Darth Floodric wrote: »

moomat, are you now doing a level 5 or 6 even though you currently possess a qualification in these levels. If so that would make sense about the case officer interview.

Got this from their site.

* From June 2014 there has been a relaxation of the progression rule for level 5 and level 6 BTEA applicants in certain limited circumstances. Applicants who already hold a Level 5 or 6 qualification under the National Framework of Qualifications and who satisfy all the other scheme eligibility criteria may be allowed undertake further courses at either of these levels. Such cases must be referred to a Case Officer for their recommendation.

Nope, level 8 and don't have anything near that level.

It wasn't just me either, there was a steady stream of people being sent in with their forms. Maybe that office has interpeted the rules wrong.

bizzyb

Anyone know if you get your rent allowance payment in the bank with btea or does it still needed to collected separately at the post office?

CiaraBrady

Hi guys,

Was just wondering if you's could answer a question for me.

I'm new to all of this Back to Education stuff, but I did hear something about receiving book fees? Could someone enlighten me please? Does it exist? How much is it? When is it given? etc

Thanks in advance!

Maldesu

Doesn't exist. It used to but got abolished some time back.

Last_Minute

I'm not 100% but i think that payment no longer exists.

CiaraBrady

Would there be any particular reason why the interviewer would decline a BTEA application?

CiaraBrady

Also, I haven't applied for the BTEA yet as I don't have a letter of acceptance from my college, is there anything else I can use instead? Like. the CAO OFFER letter?

MyNameIsMethos

They will not accept the offer letter itself, but they accept the acceptance letter from the cao, which they sent back after you accepted your offer.

bizzyb

CiaraBrady wrote: »

Also, I haven't applied for the BTEA yet as I don't have a letter of acceptance from my college, is there anything else I can use instead? Like. the CAO OFFER letter?

Yes, I applied last week with cao offer acceptance letter.Go ahead and apply you won't get a letter from your college until registration day.

CiaraBrady

I only have the offer letter from the CAO, will I have to wait long before I receive the acceptance letter?

CiaraBrady

I haven't applied for the BTEA yet as I don't have a letter of acceptance from my college, is there anything else I can use instead? Like the CAO OFFER letter?

bizzyb

CiaraBrady wrote: »

I only have the offer letter from the CAO, will I have to wait long before I receive the acceptance letter?

I got mine after I accepted my offer back in July?

leaving cert is fun

im in the same boat as op, i took a year out and worked for a while but i was then on jsa for the rest of year, ill be on jsa 9 months by September. i am only 19 and the person in social welfare told me just to apply to susi .

CiaraBrady

bizzyb wrote:

I got mine after I accepted my offer back in July?

I only got a CAO offer on Monday.

spiner

Just wondering has anyone that applied for BTEA heard back from them yet about being granted BTEA for 2014/2015?

bizzyb

CiaraBrady wrote: »

I only got a CAO offer on Monday.

Sorry, I presumed you had got a mature student offer in July. Once you accept the offer you will get an acceptance letter in a few days.

Moomat

CiaraBrady wrote: »

Would there be any particular reason why the interviewer would decline a BTEA application?

She asked questions like- How long is the course for? What level is it? Why this course? What do you hope to take from the course? What career will you take up? Are you aware that your attendance will be monitored? Do you know that you are not guaranteed BTEA for subsequent years and will need to apply again each summer?

Don't know what she bases her assessment on but she did mention that some people don't know the level, name or duration of the course when asked.

bizzyb

Moomat wrote: »

She asked questions like- How long is the course for? What level is it? Why this course? What do you hope to take from the course? What career will you take up? Are you aware that your attendance will be monitored? Do you know that you are not guaranteed BTEA for subsequent years and will need to apply again each summer?

Don't know what she bases her assessment on but she did mention that some people don't know the level, name or duration of the course when asked.

The system is all wrong isn't it.I planned on trying to get summer work next year but I nearly wonder what's the point with the fear of loosing btea for year 2.Seems like if you earn an extra few euro there going to bring you down.

spurious

Various BTEA queries merged. Please keep all queries related to BTEA in this thread.

Moomat

bizzyb wrote: »

The system is all wrong isn't it.I planned on trying to get summer work next year but I nearly wonder what's the point with the fear of loosing btea for year 2.Seems like if you earn an extra few euro there going to bring you down.

I think they are trying to do alot with a little in fairness to them. Still unsettling though when new things pop up.

The best way in my opinion would be to award the BTEA on a scholarship basis with a requirement to be unemployed for a certain period before it's awarded.
Considering there is a year of prep goes into the application from open days etc in Oct/Nov, CAO in January, interviews, info seminars etc, it's a long time in the planning.
I think you should liaise with a local employment mediator, let them judge your suitability and commitment and then they can say to you, in say January, if you get accepted onto your course you're guaranteed BTEA even if you work in the meantime.
That way, none of the fear would be there the you might do something that makes you ineligible for BTEA and the mediator would have a much better idea of your suitability.

AlexDublin

I also am on BTEA and I ruled out working during this summer due to my local social welfare office's changeable/iffy responses on what would happen if I took up work for the summer. I would love to have been working to be honest but the system doesnt seem to to promise to protect your BTEA if you do work. Any other people in the same boat or differ in opinion?

Greenacres

AlexDublin, I received the exact opposite advice. I was assured that working for the summer would not have any impact. I asked 3 times. So I took the job. Got off the live register.

Then I get a phone call during the summer to tell me that I will be means tested. Not one person I have spoken to has been able to explain it in relation to their own guidelines. They haven't a clue. Even in Carrick on Shannon.

You did the wise thing, protect your rate. I was assured I could also work part time as its allowed. But they would only let me return to my rate if I hand in a P45 at the end of the summer. And then resume work part time. Madness.

I would in effect have my rate cut because I worked for my money for the summer. Another person who decides to work part time after doing nothing for the summer will not have any rate cut. So would fare better than the person who worked.

This is not a new applicant situation. I already qualified for my payment in 2013 with the required JA payments.

AlexDublin

Jesus christ, your reply makes me glad I didn't take on something because to be honest I couldn't continue to do my course and live without my BTEA payment. Its very tight at the minute but I make it work. I love my course and it means a lot to me to get a second chance at education. God, its awful not working for the summer though!! Back to college in a few weeks now :-)

Greenacres wrote: »

AlexDublin, I received the exact opposite advice. I was assured that working for the summer would not have any impact. I asked 3 times. So I took the job. Got off the live register.

Then I get a phone call during the summer to tell me that I will be means tested. Not one person I have spoken to has been able to explain it in relation to their own guidelines. They haven't a clue. Even in Carrick on Shannon.

You did the wise thing, protect your rate. I was assured I could also work part time as its allowed. But they would only let me return to my rate if I hand in a P45 at the end of the summer. And then resume work part time. Madness.

I would in effect have my rate cut because I worked for my money for the summer. Another person who decides to work part time after doing nothing for the summer will not have any rate cut. So would fare better than the person who worked.

This is not a new applicant situation. I already qualified for my payment in 2013 with the required JA payments.

paperclip2

Greenacres wrote: »

AlexDublin, I received the exact opposite advice. I was assured that working for the summer would not have any impact. I asked 3 times. So I took the job. Got off the live register.

Then I get a phone call during the summer to tell me that I will be means tested. Not one person I have spoken to has been able to explain it in relation to their own guidelines. They haven't a clue. Even in Carrick on Shannon.

You did the wise thing, protect your rate. I was assured I could also work part time as its allowed. But they would only let me return to my rate if I hand in a P45 at the end of the summer. And then resume work part time. Madness.

I would in effect have my rate cut because I worked for my money for the summer. Another person who decides to work part time after doing nothing for the summer will not have any rate cut. So would fare better than the person who worked.

This is not a new applicant situation. I already qualified for my payment in 2013 with the required JA payments.

Hi Greenacres. Jesus thats a mess! What reasons did the DSP give you for going against their own guidelines re summer work?

Gin plus shock blanket

Greenacres wrote: »

AlexDublin, I received the exact opposite advice. I was assured that working for the summer would not have any impact. I asked 3 times. So I took the job. Got off the live register.

Then I get a phone call during the summer to tell me that I will be means tested. Not one person I have spoken to has been able to explain it in relation to their own guidelines. They haven't a clue. Even in Carrick on Shannon.

You did the wise thing, protect your rate. I was assured I could also work part time as its allowed. But they would only let me return to my rate if I hand in a P45 at the end of the summer. And then resume work part time. Madness.

I would in effect have my rate cut because I worked for my money for the summer. Another person who decides to work part time after doing nothing for the summer will not have any rate cut. So would fare better than the person who worked.

This is not a new applicant situation. I already qualified for my payment in 2013 with the required JA payments.

Nonsense, absolute and utter nonsense. I'm assuming their concern is that you will be continuing to work full time hours with this employer when you return to college, thus bringing you above the 20 hours a week max that you are entitled to work while on the scheme. This really shouldn't need to be means tested, a letter from your employer stating that the hours that you worked during the summer were on a seasonal short term basis and are now no longer available should suffice.
Incidents like this are why I disagree with a comment that was made above about the DSP having to do a lot with very little. If they actually received training, knew what they were meant to be doing and understood and implemented it, as opposed to creating piles of paper work, such pointless means tests because they clearly don't understand how their individual schemes operate, then they would be a lot more efficient.
Anyway Greenacres, you should try to email qcs @ welfare . ie (ignore the spaces I can't post a URL because I'm new). Its the complaints email address for the DSP office in Sligo and mention that your local office directly going against the operational guidelines for the BTEA scheme as set out on their own website. Also get the Mature Students office of your Colleges Students union involved.

paperclip2

What Ginplusshockblanket says is accurate in my experience. At a training day with the INOU we were told that not all DSP staff have the depth of knowledge required about all schemes, benefits and allowances. So escalating a query up the chain is usually the way to go. Changes to the operation of the scheme were announced on the 1st June with immediate effect and part of those changes introduced were that all new BTEA decisions had to be approved by a case officer. This has meant that some areas brought in or extended their client interviews and some introduced stricter internal oversight of applications before going to the case officer.

You can at times get local office staff who don't appreciate just how BTEA differs in its operation from other payments and this causes problems like the above. I've always found, to date anyway, that printing off the operational guidelines, being able to quote chapter and verse and being a politely persistent pain in the neck usually clears things up or they pass you on to someone who can explicitly tell you why they are doing something and how it relates to the regulations.


As regards the Summer work clause the info is pretty clear:
Section 3.3 Duration of payment (last papragraph)

BTEA participants who are progressing to the next year of their course or who are progressing from second level to third level approved undergraduate qualifications or from undergraduate qualification to BTEA eligible postgraduate courses will have their BTEA reinstated from the commencement of the new academic year irrespective of whether they were in receipt of an unemployment payment for the summer period. All participants must supply written confirmation from school/college/institute that they have registered as a full-time day student for the new academic year. Participants are also required to notify the Department of cessation of participation on a course.

Anyway operational guidelines are here: http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Back-to-Education-Allowance-Scheme.aspx#app2


And complaints info for DSP is here: http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Comments-or-Complaints.aspx

Ace Attorney

anybody else apply for BTEA at the beguining of august and not hear anything back i.e be provisionally approved? im still waiting for my letter of registration for the college, but havent got a letter about being provisionally approved or anything. Anybody else in the same boat?

bizzyb

Thatdoesnt looksafe tome AHHHHHHH wrote: »

anybody else apply for BTEA at the beguining of august and not hear anything back i.e be provisionally approved? im still waiting for my letter of registration for the college, but havent got a letter about being provisionally approved or anything. Anybody else in the same boat?

Yes I applied early August and up until Monday had heard nothing, rang my local Intreo office on Monday morning & got my approval letter on Tuesday morning! Give them a call.

BonnieSituation

It's so bizarre the different timescales involved with everyone's application.

I dropped my BTEA application form into Intreo Parnell St on August 22. Got my letter confirming I (provisionally) was granted it on Wednesday just gone, provided I handed in a letter from DIT stating my course, that I was registered and what the academic year length was (ie. September 8th-May 31st).

I picked up that letter in Bolton St today and dropped it in.

I queried then what happens next with my JB payment and the guy there said that I was switched to BTEA already and that I'm due my first payment into my account on Thursday September 11th.

I can't be the only one whose process was that straightforward?

GhettoCornetto

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's so bizarre the different timescales involved with everyone's application.

I dropped my BTEA application form into Intreo Parnell St on August 22. Got my letter confirming I (provisionally) was granted it on Wednesday just gone, provided I handed in a letter from DIT stating my course, that I was registered and what the academic year length was (ie. September 8th-May 31st).

I picked up that letter in Bolton St today and dropped it in.

I queried then what happens next with my JB payment and the guy there said that I was switched to BTEA already and that I'm due my first payment into my account on Thursday September 11th.

I can't be the only one whose process was that straightforward?

Nope, was just as straightforward for me. Just need to ring tomorrow and confirm that I'm also set for the 11th.

Greenacres

Hi, I am back to college this week so going to go to my local office tomorrow to talk to them. I am on part time hours now and have just put my head in the sand about this for the last week or so because I am dreading talking to them and know how upset and frustrated i am going to be after talking to them. I have received my provisional approval weeks ago and submitted my letter confirming my return to college but I haven't heard anything from them.

Thank you for all your advice and I will follow it all and attend tomorrow fully armed. I will let you know how it goes. But from experience I am not expecting any miracles.

Greenacres

Well Ive had my payment reduced because I couldn't produce a P45 . I received my decision letter yesterday so now I can proceed to make a complaint. I imagine complaining is futile but I will anyway.

Can anyone tell me why I would get a Jobseekers Allowance decision letter for my rate?? I am not a Jobseekers. Thats p*ssed me off too. I wonder is there any point in ringing up about that.

bizzyb

Greenacres wrote: »

Well Ive had my payment reduced because I couldn't produce a P45 . I received my decision letter yesterday so now I can proceed to make a complaint. I imagine complaining is futile but I will anyway.

Can anyone tell me why I would get a Jobseekers Allowance decision letter for my rate?? I am not a Jobseekers. Thats p*ssed me off too. I wonder is there any point in ringing up about that.

In regards to making a complaint, i recently emailed social welfare complaints about a decision made by my local community welfare officer and their response was..... contact my CWO!!That's the kind of ignorance your dealing with but hopefully you will get somewhere.

OnEdge

Hopefully ye can help me.

Trying to go back to college next year, Sept 2015 as a mature first time student. OH has a job so there would be a wage in but not nearly enough to cover rent, bills, creche, etc. The only thing that could make going back possible is BTEA, to cover most of creche cost. From what I understand, in order to qualify for BTEA you have to be in receipt of a qualifying payment - that would be JSB (€188) for me, for a minimum of 234 days excluding Sundays, so 39 calendar weeks total before the day my course would start (very confident this would be 14th sept 2015). The thing is, Citizens Advice told me on the phone that once my JSB runs out (39 weeks) I would be moved to JSA which would only be €42 a week because OH works. With BTEA, they match the payment you were receiving the week before you start your course so I really really need to time everything perfectly to get the higher amount of €188, and I'm wondering how I do that??

If I work back from Sept 14th 2015 for 39 weeks, that brings me to December 15th this year. Am I right in thinking I need to be signing on for JSB on this date??

I've always worked, never got to go to college. Because of our combined low salaries just scraping over the threshold, it's looking like I'm not eligible for any grants so really need this. We have savings to cover the fees for two years and that's it, I'll have to save for year 3 over the two years.

flashback humour

OnEdge wrote: »

Hopefully ye can help me.

Trying to go back to college next year, Sept 2015 as a mature first time student. OH has a job so there would be a wage in but not nearly enough to cover rent, bills, creche, etc. The only thing that could make going back possible is BTEA, to cover most of creche cost. From what I understand, in order to qualify for BTEA you have to be in receipt of a qualifying payment - that would be JSB (€188) for me, for a minimum of 234 days excluding Sundays, so 39 calendar weeks total before the day my course would start (very confident this would be 14th sept 2015). The thing is, Citizens Advice told me on the phone that once my JSB runs out (39 weeks) I would be moved to JSA which would only be €42 a week because OH works. With BTEA, they match the payment you were receiving the week before you start your course so I really really need to time everything perfectly to get the higher amount of €188, and I'm wondering how I do that??

If I work back from Sept 14th 2015 for 39 weeks, that brings me to December 15th this year. Am I right in thinking I need to be signing on for JSB on this date??

I've always worked, never got to go to college. Because of our combined low salaries just scraping over the threshold, it's looking like I'm not eligible for any grants so really need this. We have savings to cover the fees for two years and that's it, I'll have to save for year 3 over the two years.

Its difficult to know the answer to this.....even if you timed it all perfectly I'm not sure that they wouldn't means test you while on BTEA. Or they might let you stay on the full rate for first year but then cut you down when you apply again for second year. I would say do your best to make it work for you but have a backup plan just in case things do fall through.

I know a girl in the same situation as you who has just started first year, she's applied for BTEA on her Jobseekers Benefit rate but its due to run out in November and she can't get a clear answer from anyone as to whether she'll be means tested then. I'll update you if she hears anything.

Mister Robinson

I got a letter from the Social saying my first BTEA payment will be on Thursday the 9th of October but I collect the JSA at the moment on the Wednesday.

What I want to know is, if I go up this wednesday (8th) will I get JSA and then on Thursday get the BTEA or will the JSA have stopped because the BTEA starts on the Thursday?

BonnieSituation

Mister Robinson wrote: »

I got a letter from the Social saying my first BTEA payment will be on Thursday the 9th of October but I collect the JSA at the moment on the Wednesday.

What I want to know is, if I go up this wednesday (8th) will I get JSA and then on Thursday get the BTEA or will the JSA have stopped because the BTEA starts on the Thursday?

You're no longer getting JSA.

Treat it as if your JSA pay day has been moved to Thursday.

Mister Robinson

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're no longer getting JSA.

Treat it as if your JSA pay day has been moved to Thursday.

Yeah I was thinking that but just wanted to be sure.

Thanks for the info!

Dunne_bkill

Fairly frustrating this whole thing.

I'm finishing up my first year in about 6 weeks and I've been on BTEA for the academic year having been on JSA prior to this. With the summer coming, I've made some enquirers on what the situation with is working and retaining your BTEA for the next academic year.

I live with my girlfriend in Dublin and will continue to do so over the summer. My social welfare office is still in Laois as I never changed it during the year in fear or delaying my BTEA payment for weeks at a time.

I called my local social welfare office and they said they were not sure if I could sign off the register completely for the summer. I proceeded to call the Kilkenny office and they said I could sign off and work all summer but she said to "Keep looking at the website, it could change".

What is everyone else doing for the summer? Should I sign off completely? I cant face a summer without working, its not financially plausible. I also can't face a year of college without BTEA, not possible.

BonnieSituation

Dunne_bkill wrote: »

Fairly frustrating this whole thing.

I'm finishing up my first year in about 6 weeks and I've been on BTEA for the academic year having been on JSA prior to this. With the summer coming, I've made some enquirers on what the situation with is working and retaining your BTEA for the next academic year.

I live with my girlfriend in Dublin and will continue to do so over the summer. My social welfare office is still in Laois as I never changed it during the year in fear or delaying my BTEA payment for weeks at a time.

I called my local social welfare office and they said they were not sure if I could sign off the register completely for the summer. I proceeded to call the Kilkenny office and they said I could sign off and work all summer but she said to "Keep looking at the website, it could change".

What is everyone else doing for the summer? Should I sign off completely? I cant face a summer without working, its not financially plausible. I also can't face a year of college without BTEA, not possible.

First things first, move your BTEA claim to Dublin. I really mean this. Insane that you haven't.

When you're finished up in college in May, go to your new local office and inform them (bring a letter from the college) and they'll automatically change you over to JSA for the summer unless you're planning on working.

Come the end of August, go back in and they will automatically change your claim back to BTEA.

The system is more streamlined now. Anyone on BTEA has an entitlement to the claim for the entire duration of the course of study.

So, right now, change your claim to your LO in Dublin and wait til you finish up in May before doing anything else.