Will FFXV be a Spirits Within style disaster and bankrupt Square?

Adamantium

How do you fund a games on and off development for close to 10 years and still manage to turn a reasonable profit.

Staff wages, moving engines to new consoles, money going down a black hole, it must be near 200 million at this point!

The brand name is not at the near the strength it was in the late 90's, early 00's; This is a GTA style budget for a non GTA sized audience, I've an odd feeling the audacity of it could kill Square or severely cripple them.

It'd be almost poetic/ironic at this point if it happened.

I do sort look at the company with morbid curiosity (perhaps because there games are some of the first ones that showed me that games could tell stories, when nobody else was doing it), even though it's a long time since I truly enjoyed anything from them.

Perhaps XV will finish the job Spirits Within couldn't.

Retr0gamer

People were making games with stories long before the final fantasy series and doing it a hell of a lot better.

Square soft might have screwed up with FFXIII but really it's the one misstep they have taken. The two sequels are superb games and for all it's flaws I still managed to enjoy FFXIII. They're other output has been superb, from the likes of Tactics Ogre, The World Ends with You and their mobile games including the excellent Chaos Rings, they've only really put their foot wrong once.

What I'm more worried about with 15 is Nomura is in charge. Any game he has creative freedom over had been a turd (sorry kingdom hearts fans, it's true,) and he is worse than even David cage when it comes to writing. The engine hasn't been changed much for the move to next gen. The engine is scalable and PC based so I'd say took a minimal amount of work. However the game must have gone way over budget by now, it's gotten ridiculous and has meant there's been no kingdom hearts 3 since the entire KH production team had been tied up in the game since KH 2 was released.

It is a complete disaster and approaching duke Nukem forever levels of silly but I hope it doesn't sink square because despite the aysayers they still make superb games.

Adamantium

I really enjoyed Bravely Default, then realised it was simply published by them.

26 min over 8 years, the progression of graphics/concept is fascinating to watch, people lives have changed umpteen times in the making:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACSpgGAjGfM

Varik

Square are much bigger than FF, but it doesn't matter how good 15 is as the FF has been permanently damaged from 13. 13, 13-2, and LR sales more than halved with each entry and their home market for home console RPGs isn't there any more to back them up.

Retr0gamer

To be fair Matrix (the ones behind bravely default) have done a hell of a lot of good work for Square lately and are nearly entirely composed of ex square staff. They've strong ties with square.

Noxin

Why are people ripping 13? I'm actually playing through it at the moment and fairly enjoying it.
Ok the auto combat thing is pretty stupid but for myself and I'm sure many other FF fans, they just ignore this bit.
Is there something I'm missing? Is it the class swapping? General storyline? Ending? (I'm not there yet so so spoilers)
It is a lot more linear than most FF's though..

Retr0gamer

FFXIII has a lot of problems. Although most FF's are just as linear as FFXIII they at least break it up or give the illusion of freedom. It breaks up the game so it doesn't become tiring. It's hard to have a long session of FFXIII because it becomes tiring. Also the story is utter ****e but that's hardly new for the series either.

As for the battle system, I thought it was fantastic, arguably one of the best in the series.

BeerWolf

Final Fantasy without a world map to wander about in is not FF imo!

Retr0gamer

The world map is just for show, they're usually very linear until the end game. Other RPGs have worked without a world map as well, it's hardly essential. Also Final Fantasy is a series that radically reinvents itself with each iteration. People looking for consistency in the series are looking in the wrong place.

Generic Dreadhead

Are people still playing FF? I thought it was a girls game now since FF8? Was there even a FF9 or did they just go straight in with the DOA Beach Volleyball cast for the more recent entires? (i'm kidding of course, but this game is a ****ing farce of the highest order)

Icyseanfitz

last FF i truly liked was 10, 13 was a joke in my opinion, but then i just play FF for the story, good gameplay is a bonus but its mainly just for a good story, 12 was crap in that regard and so was 13 (my opinion)

ive lost all faith in the series to be honest, they dont know what people want anymore, the made 13 which most fans hated, they then decided to make a direct sequel to that game (havnt played it like many fans due to 13) and then proceed to make another direct sequel after that wheres the logic? they made 2 games no one wanted.

meh i hope 15 turns out good but i doubt it will

ancapailldorcha

Noxin wrote: »

Why are people ripping 13? I'm actually playing through it at the moment and fairly enjoying it.
Ok the auto combat thing is pretty stupid but for myself and I'm sure many other FF fans, they just ignore this bit.
Is there something I'm missing? Is it the class swapping? General storyline? Ending? (I'm not there yet so so spoilers)
It is a lot more linear than most FF's though..

It's not a remake of Final Fantasy VII is what essentially it boils down to. The combat system is the best of any of the mainstream FF games. The issue is that Square Enix don't trust you with it until the latter half of the game. It's a real shame as coming up with strategies to defeat enemies quickly enough to earn 5 stars is great motivation.

MitchKoobski

I enjoyed 13 and it's two sequels. All three had them had different combat systems that were fun to use (for me anyway) and they did manage to wrap up their large convoluted story and lore at the end of Lighting Returns in a satisfying way. The linearity never really bothered me in 13, there was more choice in 13-2 and then 13-3 went open-world but it was almost too much at one point.

When you think about it FFX was linear for the first 9/10 of the game until you get to control the airship, but everyone remembers that fondly enough.

Most fans did not hate FF XIII. A couple of people did not like the linear structure of the progression and a lot of other people who don't like Final Fantasy decided to jump on the "that was bollocks" bandwagon. Saying FFXIII was just plain bollocks is in the same category as saying "If your favourite is FFVII then you are an idiot".

Spirits Within on the other hand, while praised for its graphics and attempt to do something different (Roger Ebert even gave it 3.5/4), it was an average film at best and no one other than Final Fantasy fans actually wanted to see it. Although I think I'll go back and watch it again just to see.....



Final Fantasy XV will only cause them problems on release if it is actually bollocks to play or if they expect too much of a turnover. The Final Fantasy fans will buy it, but they need it to sell to so many others too.

Varik

Stopped playing 12 at the point near the edge of the world, got the platinum for 13 which I only did as I didn't think it would take as long as it did. The game didn't have any good characters, most felt like the temp characters you get at the start of the games.

Everything square do for the longest while has had people thinking they've no idea what they're doing.

10 hd had probably sold more than 15 will. Crowd fund 7, and actually make some money.

ancapailldorcha

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

last FF i truly liked was 10, 13 was a joke in my opinion, but then i just play FF for the story, good gameplay is a bonus but its mainly just for a good story, 12 was crap in that regard and so was 13 (my opinion)

ive lost all faith in the series to be honest, they dont know what people want anymore, the made 13 which most fans hated, they then decided to make a direct sequel to that game (havnt played it like many fans due to 13) and then proceed to make another direct sequel after that wheres the logic? they made 2 games no one wanted.

meh i hope 15 turns out good but i doubt it will

Most fans hated 13? What? Why did they turn it into a trilogy in that case? It's the same vocal minority than insist on slating the game while saying that a remake of a game most gamers of this generation couldn't give a flying monkeys about will somehow making a killing.

MitchKoobski

Final Fantasy XV was announced in May 2006 as Versus XIII. Feckin hell.

Icyseanfitz

anyone i know that likes/liked FF hated the characters/story from 13, the combat system was its redeeming feature, that and the visuals

Icyseanfitz

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Most fans hated 13? What? Why did they turn it into a trilogy in that case? It's the same vocal minority than insist on slating the game while saying that a remake of a game most gamers of this generation couldn't give a flying monkeys about will somehow making a killing.

thats what id like to know! makes no god damn sense! i couldnt care less about a remake of 7, 8, 9 or any game, would be nice but i already know the story so meh

ancapailldorcha

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

thats what id like to know! makes no god damn sense! i couldnt care less about a remake of 7, 8, 9 or any game, would be nice but i already know the story so meh

It makes perfect sense. Final Fantasy XIII sold well. And since the sequel sold well then it's reasonable to conclude that it was a fairly well liked game.

Icyseanfitz

we will have to agree to disagree, i dont really know anyone that truly likes the game its characters or its story

ancapailldorcha

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

we will have to agree to disagree, i dont really know anyone that truly likes the game its characters or its story

The story of all the games, with the potential exceptions of FFXII and FFT are drivel, as are most of the characters. I read Erikson when I want a good fantasy story. It'd be nice to have a decent story but they are games first and foremost.

Icyseanfitz

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The story of all the games, with the potential exceptions of FFXII and FFT are drivel, as are most of the characters. I read Erikson when I want a good fantasy story. It'd be nice to have a decent story but they are games first and foremost.

that is all personal preference, i enjoy a good narrative in my games, its part of why i like gaming

richymcdermott

Jrpg usually have one sided stories with a bunch of kids with one or two adults take on god that tries to destroy the world.

normally I only care for strong characters to help me continue playing games.

ff15 will be bollocks cause I cannot think of one game that reached its expectations after a ten year lifecycle

ancapailldorcha

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

that is all personal preference, i enjoy a good narrative in my games, its part of why i like gaming

As do I, I just afford a higher level of importance to mechanics.

johnny_ultimate

I wish more franchises were just retired after their main creative talents have departed for pastures new. I understand the strong commercial motivations behind the never-ending flow of sequels, but from a purely artistic standpoint there's so much to be gained from shaking off the shackles of a big name IP and trying something new. I reckon many players would also be more accepting without the weight of history upon a new game's shoulders. Most of the games released under the FF name in recent years could easily exist as independent of the series with only minor tweaks.

Oh, and FF13 deserves all the ire for crimes against storytelling in gaming :pac:

hadoken13

I stopped playing after 12.

The likes of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout and Dark Souls have meant I no longer play any JRPGs.

Adamantium

The Spirits Within is a geniinely good movie in retrospect, has many elements of the series, spiritualism, lifestream Gaia, meteor from space (Jenova basically), great voice acting, a space cannon ( Sister Ray basically). It felt very Final Fantasy VII/VIII in tone and look.

This was a time when Square wasn't pandering to the extent it is now, instead of making it some brave exciting work.

It came a decade too early, before the resurgence of sci-fi in cinema, in terms of comic books and the like , the story was told in a very eastern style too (which remember putting me off too as a kid too) the look has been ripped "inspired" off from Mass Effect to Avatar.

Bioware when they're having trouble point to the designs of TSW and say make it more like that"

Cameron said that without it, it's unlikely Avatar would have almost nigh on impossible to make

Relased a decade later, TSW would have been a hit, guarantee it.

Speaking with Xbox World 360 magazine, Mass Effect 3 art director Derek Watts said that he and his team looked at the Final Fantasy film for inspiration.

"Yeah, you know we actually reference a lot from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. We used a lot of their GUIs and the way they did their ship - that was kind of like in some of the early designs for the Normandy," he said.

"Our attack helicopters are loosely based off that movie. There's some great stuff, especially their glowing GUI screens; we used those a lot. I keep a folder of that stuff and I still actually tell the guys 'just go back and look at that. Change it like that!'"

johnny_ultimate

I loved the Spirits Within - when I was ten. I rewatched the opening act recently for some reason, and it was miserable fare. Po-faced sci-fi of the blandest sort. The technology on display is now amusingly quaint and primitive, while several talented actors turn in what are arguably their most forced, stilted performances. The whole thing simply feels 'wrong' and a misguided folly. It is barely connected with Final Fantasy even by the standards of a series that has often radically differed with each passing instalment.

Retr0gamer

Varik wrote: »

Everything square do for the longest while has had people thinking they've no idea what they're doing.

Only FFXIII has been disappointing. FFXIV was a disaster but by all accounts they turned that into one of the best MMO's around in the end. I can't think of anything else they have published that has been bad with the exception of Dream Drop Distance but even then Birth by Sleep wasn't as obnoxious as other KH games.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Most fans hated 13? What? Why did they turn it into a trilogy in that case?

The reason for that is poor development. Square pumped out high quality assets for FFXIII before they even had a game or narrative nailed down. Once they had that out of the way they realised they had produced so many art assets that they wouldn't be able to use them all in one game and it would be a waste. So they stitched some areas together, wrote the story around it and used the unused assets for the two sequels. Really Square wasn't ready for the big development team management needed for last gen.

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

we will have to agree to disagree, i dont really know anyone that truly likes the game its characters or its story

Anyone that plays Final Fantasy for the story is playing the wrong series. Cough... join the megatenists... cough.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I wish more franchises were just retired after their main creative talents have departed for pastures new. I understand the strong commercial motivations behind the never-ending flow of sequels, but from a purely artistic standpoint there's so much to be gained from shaking off the shackles of a big name IP and trying something new. I reckon many players would also be more accepting without the weight of history upon a new game's shoulders. Most of the games released under the FF name in recent years could easily exist as independent of the series with only minor tweaks.

Final Fantasy though has never had one single guiding influence. Sakaguchi bowed out after the first game and was only really a manager and the series has been under a slew of different creative directors for each game. It lead to the wild reinvention and innovation that characterises the series and I'm glad of it, if anything FF is never stale and always different. More than any other series FF has the ability to recover because it's never the same game each time.

ancapailldorcha

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Oh, and FF13 deserves all the ire for crimes against storytelling in gaming :pac:

Why exactly? It has a better story than the more celebrated entries in the series.

ancapailldorcha

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The reason for that is poor development. Square pumped out high quality assets for FFXIII before they even had a game or narrative nailed down. Once they had that out of the way they realised they had produced so many art assets that they wouldn't be able to use them all in one game and it would be a waste. So they stitched some areas together, wrote the story around it and used the unused assets for the two sequels. Really Square wasn't ready for the big development team management needed for last gen.

Didn't know that. FFXIII must have been profitable at the very least for them to risk throwing even more money at those assets.

Calhoun

I hope it's not a failure, square are the company that got me into the rpg genre so I always have a soft spot for them.

Didn't like 13 so much, as has already been pointed out the illusion of freedom being removed really turned me off. The remake of 14 however was very nostalgic for me and if I wasn't already playing mmo'so I would continue playing it.

Retr0gamer

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why exactly? It has a better story than the more celebrated entries in the series.

Hmm, I'd say the story is pretty awful as well but it's also told in an awful manner. There's nothing wrong with having a videogame with an awful story. What is a bigger problem is a game with a story, whether good or bad, that gets in the way of enjoying the game. FFXIII's story is told in a dreadful manner that really upsets the pace of the game. The fact that it's not very good rubs salt into the wound.

FFVII on the other hand has got a cliché ridden story that is utter nonsense and has ideas stolen from everything from Evangelion to Neuromancer but it never gets in the way of the game and keeps great pace throughout.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Didn't know that. FFXIII must have been profitable at the very least for them to risk throwing even more money at those assets.

It probably was profitable but not to Squares expectations. The most expensive part of making a game are the art, model, music, sound and animation assets so if you have enough to make nearly three games lying around the clever thing to do is make three games out of them instead of wasting them.

ancapailldorcha

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Hmm, I'd say the story is pretty awful as well but it's also told in an awful manner. There's nothing wrong with having a videogame with an awful story. What is a bigger problem is a game with a story, whether good or bad, that gets in the way of enjoying the game. FFXIII's story is told in a dreadful manner that really upsets the pace of the game. The fact that it's not very good rubs salt into the wound.

FFVII on the other hand has got a cliché ridden story that is utter nonsense and has ideas stolen from everything from Evangelion to Neuromancer but it never gets in the way of the game and keeps great pace throughout.

Oh, don't get me wrong, the story is drivel. My point is that it's nowhere as terrible as some of the FF stories. Fair point with it impacting the gameplay though. Much as I love the game, it's fraught with problems not least of which is the constant hand holding.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It probably was profitable but not to Squares expectations. The most expensive part of making a game are the art, model, music, sound and animation assets so if you have enough to make nearly three games lying around the clever thing to do is make three games out of them instead of wasting them.

Hmm... Fair enough. Seems like appalling planning on their point. I almost wouldn't believe it possible for a company this size to cock up like this.

Retr0gamer

Anyway the biggest crime that Square has committed was the remaster soundtrack on FFX HD :P

ancapailldorcha

I suppose this is heresy but I like the new battle theme. I've no idea why they felt it needed changing though. It was fine as it was. I've not played the remaster yet. I've Okami, Bayonetta, Dark Souls II as well as many others to get to first.

Retr0gamer

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Hmm... Fair enough. Seems like appalling planning on their point. I almost wouldn't believe it possible for a company this size to cock up like this.

There used to be a great podcast called warning a huge podcast that went into what went wrong at Square. Square had big problems of their staff being poached that they specialised them so much that they would not be attractive to employ. It got so bad in the art department that they had 'cobblestone girl' who's only job was to make cobblestone textures. This was grand in the PS2 era when budgets weren't so much but once the last gen hit art teams took up the vast majority of resources and Square didn't reorganise to meet the new requirements for game development. FFXIII was massively delayed and creating the crystal tools engine took a huge amount of time and during that time the idle art teams were told to churn out assets. By the time the coders and game designers caught up with the art team they had a stupid amount of assets.

Square have since totally reorganised around the western game development model so hopefully they can avoid such stupidity in future.

ancapailldorcha

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There used to be a great podcast called warning a huge podcast that went into what went wrong at Square. Square had big problems of their staff being poached that they specialised them so much that they would not be attractive to employ. It got so bad in the art department that they had 'cobblestone girl' who's only job was to make cobblestone textures. This was grand in the PS2 era when budgets weren't so much but once the last gen hit art teams took up the vast majority of resources and Square didn't reorganise to meet the new requirements for game development. FFXIII was massively delayed and creating the crystal tools engine took a huge amount of time and during that time the idle art teams were told to churn out assets. By the time the coders and game designers caught up with the art team they had a stupid amount of assets.

Square have since totally reorganised around the western game development model so hopefully they can avoid such stupidity in future.

Wow, I'd no idea it's development was such a disaster.

Varik

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Only FFXIII has been disappointing. FFXIV was a disaster but by all accounts they turned that into one of the best MMO's around in the end. I can't think of anything else they have published that has been bad with the exception of Dream Drop Distance but even then Birth by Sleep wasn't as obnoxious as other KH games

4m+ tomb raider sales and they're disappointed, what were they spending or expecting for that to be disappointing. The recent exclusivity for tomb raider, which will hurt them in the long run.

Can't think of any thing that was an outright success.

ancapailldorcha

Varik wrote: »

4m+ tomb raider sales and they're disappointed, what were they spending or expecting for that to be disappointing. The recent exclusivity for tomb raider, which will hurt them in the long run.

Can't think of any thing that was an outright success.

I think any game which fails to achieve COD level sales will be deemed disappointing.

Retr0gamer

Varik wrote: »

4m+ tomb raider sales and they're disappointed, what were they spending or expecting for that to be disappointing. The recent exclusivity for tomb raider, which will hurt them in the long run.

Can't think of any thing that was an outright success.

Well that was stupid CEOs and shareholders being unrealistic. I was more talking of the Japanese side. Their Mobile and handheld output has been top notch and been making a lot of money.

Varik

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well that was stupid CEOs and shareholders being unrealistic. I was more talking of the Japanese side. Their Mobile and handheld output has been top notch and been making a lot of money.

CEOs and Shareholders, also know as those who actually have any say in how a company is run.

noodler

Its complete bullsh1t to dump the FF13 story in with that of other FFs imo.

7,8,9,10 all had way, way better stories. 8 fell apart somewhat in the second half and 9 a bit in the last quarter but its not even close.

Its the first time I couldn't bring myself to push through with a FF game - I guess they are just being made for different people these days.

hadoken13

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've Okami, Bayonetta, Dark Souls II as well as many others to get to first.

Get playing Dark Souls II as soon as you can, with the new DLC out there are loads of people playing and this game is a hellova lot more fun with invasions, co-ops etc.

ancapailldorcha

noodler wrote: »

Its complete bullsh1t to dump the FF13 story in with that of other FFs imo.

7,8,9,10 all had way, way better stories. 8 fell apart somewhat in the second half and 9 a bit in the last quarter but its not even close.

Its the first time I couldn't bring myself to push through with a FF game - I guess they are just being made for different people these days.

I don't see how. FFXIII tried to something a bit different. It failed but it's no worse than any of the PSOne games and FFX. I've not played FFIX and I wouldn't count FFVI as a PSOne game.

Noxin

lol, I seem to be the only one who doesn't mind the FFXIII story so far. Like I said, I'm currently playing through it and only hit Pulse but so far it has been enjoyable enough. Maybe I'm easily entertained? :P Or maybe it just becomes complete drivel from here on. Either way, Imma continue playing.

Icyseanfitz

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't see how. FFXIII tried to something a bit different. It failed but it's no worse than any of the PSOne games and FFX. I've not played FFIX and I wouldn't count FFVI as a PSOne game.

at the end of the day its all personal preference, in my opinion 13 is the game that truly finished my love of FF's, its no way comparable to 7, 9 or 10 in terms of story/characters, it was so god damn convoluted i could barely figure out what was going on after 40 hours, the combat system was one of the best in the series but that wont save a FF for me.
what exactly did 13 do that was so different? 12 did something truly different in terms of game mechanics but i dont see what 13 did, it was a very polished pretty game with a good combat system and a narrative that was useless.

ancapailldorcha

Noxin wrote: »

lol, I seem to be the only one who doesn't mind the FFXIII story so far. Like I said, I'm currently playing through it and only hit Pulse but so far it has been enjoyable enough. Maybe I'm easily entertained? :P Or maybe it just becomes complete drivel from here on. Either way, Imma continue playing.

I quite liked the FFXIII story and characters. I read a lot so I can get my fill of well scripted fantasy elsewhere. It's drivel but it's enjoyable drivel and the characters are a lot better than casts of most FF games.

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

at the end of the day its all personal preference, in my opinion 13 is the game that truly finished my love of FF's, its no way comparable to 7, 9 or 10 in terms of story/characters, it was so god damn convoluted i could barely figure out what was going on after 40 hours, the combat system was one of the best in the series but that wont save a FF for me.
what exactly did 13 do that was so different? 12 did something truly different in terms of game mechanics but i dont see what 13 did, it was a very polished pretty game with a good combat system and a narrative that was useless.

I think I get annoyed because I get the impression for some reason that people are objectively damning FFXIII. I don't know. I really liked it and even preordered FFXIII-2 once I heard it was coming out.
FFXIII's battle system is very different to that of the rest of the series. The characters spend most of the game in small groups instead of being together for the whole duration of the story. There were flaws, big fat glaring ones at that but it was fun and better than I expected. I'd call it my favourite of the mainstream FFs but I've not played FFIX.
P.S. There is no justifiable reason to pre-order a game. None whatsoever be it GTAVI or Final Fantasy 80.

Icyseanfitz

yup i never pre order, you never know what your getting before hand, and i cant stand pre order dlc on principle

Rael

I'm sure Square will be fine.

Particularly after Microsoft propped up their balance sheet with a wodge of cash for the Tomb Raider timed exclusive.

Retr0gamer

People turned off FF by FFXIII are missing out on three cracking RPGs in FFXIII-2, FFXIII-3 and Bravely Default.

I wasn't the biggest fan of FFXII but you know what, I'd kill for FFXII HD with the zodiac edition additions on Vita. That and SMT Nocturne on Vita would make me so happy!