72% believe suicide to be morally unacceptable, do you agree?

P_1

So browsing the ST today I noticed an interesting article on a survey based on what people view as being morally acceptable today (sadly I cannot link as the ST is behind a paywall but its on Page 8 for anyone who's interested). One answer that caught my eye was that 72% of people believe that suicide is morally unacceptable.

I honestly thought that we were gone past the days of people considering victims of suicide to be 'selfish' but that result would lead one to think otherwise. My own view is that suicide is, in some cases, the unfortunate result of unmanaged depression and in other cases people, on learning of a diagnosis of an incurable disease people electing to end things on their own terms. In neither case do I consider the individual concerned to be 'selfish' in any way.

So AH what do you think of this? Is suicide morally unacceptable or is it the consequence of unmanaged depression? Is it ever justified?

Gummy Panda

Suicide was culturally acceptable until Christian church. Greeks and Romans had relaxed views on it

SeaDaily

72% of people must not understand depression.

AlanS181824

Suicide is an awful thing that seems to affect so many of us nowadays.

There should be proper mental health care organisations in palace to help prevent it.

oppenheimer1

P_1 wrote: »

So browsing the ST today I noticed an interesting article on a survey based on what people view as being morally acceptable today (sadly I cannot link as the ST is behind a paywall but its on Page 8 for anyone who's interested). One answer that caught my eye was that 72% of people believe that suicide is morally unacceptable.

I honestly thought that we were gone past the days of people considering victims of suicide to be 'selfish' but that result would lead one to think otherwise. My own view is that suicide is, in some cases, the unfortunate result of unmanaged depression and in other cases people, on learning of a diagnosis of an incurable disease people electing to end things on their own terms. In neither case do I consider the individual concerned to be 'selfish' in any way.

So AH what do you think of this? Is suicide morally unacceptable or is it the consequence of unmanaged depression? Is it ever justified?

There is a jump there that you're making. People can view suicide as morally unacceptable without thinking it is selfish.

Most people would want to see people getting treatment for depression instead of taking their own life.

L.Jenkins

We can debate the morality of Suicide until we are blue in the face, but that doesn't address the problem or how it could be solved. It has touched the family of my Fiancée and a few friends, so I have some tiny minuscule idea of how distraught it leaves those who are left behind. It needs to be addressed and the hard questions asked, what drives someone to such a permanent solution to a short term problem?

Roger_007

Whether we like it or not it is the absolute right of every adult person to end their own life at a time and manner of their choosing.

beks101

Personally I don't think it's my place to judge or to decide whether suicide is "morally acceptable" or not. Surely someone who is suicidal has enough problems to deal with without society weighing in to tell them how bad, selfish or wrong they are for not wanting to be here anymore.

nc19

Their life their choice. Simple.

yes they may leave people or problems behind but the people will move on and the problems will pass

suicide is selfish, we know but it doesnt change the fact that its the persons choice.

I think the people who dont agree with it are the real selfish ones. You generally hear them say things like 'what about me' ; 'how could they do this to me' ; 'how will I cope'

P_1

Itzy wrote: »

We can debate the morality of Suicide until we are blue in the face, but that doesn't address the problem or how it could be solved. It has touched the family of my Fiancée and a few friends, so I have some tiny minuscule idea of how distraught it leaves those who are left behind. It needs to be addressed and the hard questions asked, what drives someone to such a permanent solution to a short term problem?

That is quite true, these days we know so much about people's physical health and are able to cure or manage so many conditions that, up to quite recently, were effectively death sentences but sadly we're still very much in "here there be dragons" territory when it comes to people's mental health.

kowloon

If I was terminally ill I would go out on my own terms, not go slowly.

Sound of Silence

For those suffering with depression, suicide is often considered a way of unburdening others. They believe that by ending their lives, the lives of others will improve.

There is simply no room for selfishness for a person who lacks any self-worth. As such, suicide, whilst an incredibly unfortunate reality, is often made with the best intentions in the minds of those who suffer from the illness, no matter how twisted and destructive the decision might be for those around them.

This pretty much sums it up.

Guy:Incognito

Roger_007 wrote: »

Whether we like it or not it is the absolute right of every adult person to end their own life at a time and manner of their choosing.

It shouldn't be normalised and made seem like a solution to short term problems though . I'd imagine quite a few people that commit suicide wouldn't if they were given a second chance.

It should definitely be an option to end suffering for terminal illness etc.

NewYork1979

I don't think it's morally unacceptable. I wonder how many of that 72% have ever been around someone who is extremely depressed.

I'd imagine if they changed that poll to 50:50 those who have been around someone and those who have not that the % would be a lot lower.

My best mate was severely depressed and it certainly helped me to understand suicide. Thank god she was caught in time but we had to watch her all the same. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

laugh

What do morals have to do with it, really?

syklops

72% of who? No-body asked me.

72% of people who were at home during the day to take the call from MRBI or whoever? Thats a different demographic.

Personally I think it is morally acceptable in some situations. We put down animals to save them from suffering, but we don't allow humans the same courtesy.

In cases like terminal illness, or even worse, non-terminal but debilitating illness. Its one thing to be told, you will be dead in 3 years, its another to be told you will live for 20 more, but you will be in agony for the last 10.

Amirani

The whole survey was full of craziness: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/14208_10202563137827480_8336608705895426438_n.jpg

1. Suicide is less acceptable than doctor assisted suicide?
2. Extramarital sex is less acceptable than extramarital parentage?
3. Pornography?

folamh

Who am I to judge someone who feels so extremely depressed that they end their own life? I simply can't imagine.

NewYork1979

Sound of Silence wrote: »

For those suffering with depression, suicide is often considered a way of unburdening others. They believe that by ending their lives, the lives of others will improve.

There is simply no room for selfishness for a person who lacks any self-worth. As such, suicide, whilst an incredibly unfortunate reality, is often made with the best intentions in the minds of those who suffer from the illness, no matter how twisted and destructive the decision might be for those around them.

This was exactly the thought process of my severely depressed friend.

syklops

Diego Simeone wrote: »

The whole survey was full of craziness: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/14208_10202563137827480_8336608705895426438_n.jpg

1. Suicide is less acceptable than doctor assisted suicide?
2. Extramarital sex is less acceptable than extramarital parentage?
3. Pornography?

Well that adds more context. 61% of the same demographic think pornography is wrong. Well they definitely didn't ask me that either.

P_1

Yeah it certainly strikes me as an unreliable sample size, I guess that's the problem when surveys ask such black and white questions.

Sadly shades of grey don't tend to make for presentable graphics...

mal1

But in general, are we not all wired to think that it is morally wrong? have we not all evolved in that way?

Tail Docker

I have a mate who is one of the people RedC ask to do surveys. He's a Death-Metal head who drinks too much and I agree with him on basically nothing. "We surveyed 1000 people and 72% think..." Feck off. People who do surveys are 60% more likely to be loopers, I read a survey on that somewhere.

NewYork1979

mal1 wrote: »

But in general, are we not all wired to think that it is morally wrong? have we not all evolved in that way?

Morally, no way. I don't see how it is our business to morally judge someone who takes their own life. If someone is terminally ill and in pain, I would have no issue with them deciding they wanted to end it.

Sad, upsetting for those left, a shame it came to suicide, yes.

P_1

mal1 wrote: »

But in general, are we not all wired to think that it is morally wrong? have we not all evolved in that way?

Perhaps but in an awful lot of cases suicide is the result of untreated or mismanaged depression.

Let's look at it from another angle, would you think that somebody dying of cancer was morally wrong? Why would you think that somebody dying of depression was morally wrong?

Lou.m

There is no right or wrong answer.

folamh

mal1 wrote: »

But in general, are we not all wired to think that it is morally wrong? have we not all evolved in that way?

Not necessarily. If someone is burdening the tribe, their suicide might be regarded a moral act.

dueaug

My mother ended her own life in 2006. She believed (wrongly) she had let someone down. She left 5 kids and 3 grandkids behind. She wasn't selfish, she believed we would be better off without her. All total bs. We didn't know she was going through this til afterwards though so we couldn't make a difference to her attitude towards herself or her life. She was a total lady and I remember being a teen and talking about suicide to her and she said "she could never take her own life as she couldn't hurt herself like that"!!

drkpower

Simply asking the question whether it is 'morally acceptable' misses the point? Is the mutation of breast tissue into malignant cells morally acceptable?

Call Me Jimmy

Not everyone's life will work out okay. Not everyone feels life is worth living, sometimes the bad far outweighs the good and often this doesn't change over time. People don't like to hear that. Thinking suicide is morally unacceptable is a refusal to accept this.

mal1

NewYork1979 wrote: »

Morally, no way. I don't see how it is our business to morally judge someone who takes their own life. If someone is terminally ill and in pain, I would have no issue with them deciding they wanted to end it.

Sad, upsetting for those left, a shame it came to suicide, yes.

It may depend on how you view morals and ethics and how they are derived. From a religious standpoint or a purely scientific and biological origin.

Are we talking about an individuals morals or morally judging someone? Sets off two very different discussions. If we talk about morally judging, then the discussion can get very emotional.

Mr. Incognito

Sindo is a rag.

Probably biased questioning

Busted Flat.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Sindo is a rag.

Probably biased questioning

ST

Sauve

'Morally unacceptable'. Feck off tbh.

As for the 'selfish' argument, I'm very much torn on it.
People commit suicide for such a myriad of reasons that I don't think it can be put into a neat little box where it all makes sense.

Every suicide/depression/whatever it may be is different. Of the suicides that I've been unfortunate to know of or be involved in, I would say one of those was categorically a selfish act. With the others- nothing about the person or the act was selfish. They were people who just couldn't see a way out of the black hole they were in.

There is no 'cure-all' answer to suicide and depression in this country, but I think the first step that has to be taken is the realisation of this. Everybody has a different story, everybody deals with their depression/problems differently, everybody has their own reasons for wanting out, or for feeling like the world would be a better place without them.
Everybody is different.

UCDVet

In my opinion, the most fundamental freedom we all have, is what to do with our lives. That absolutely must include the right to end it.

You aren't free if you aren't able to choose to stop living.

folamh

UCDVet wrote: »

In my opinion, the most fundamental freedom we all have, is what to do with our lives. That absolutely must include the right to end it.

You aren't free if you aren't able to choose to stop living.

The question is not what you have the right to do, it's what is moral to do. We have the freedom to do many immoral things.

berrygood

Itzy wrote: »

We can debate the morality of Suicide until we are blue in the face, but that doesn't address the problem or how it could be solved. It has touched the family of my Fiancée and a few friends, so I have some tiny minuscule idea of how distraught it leaves those who are left behind. It needs to be addressed and the hard questions asked, what drives someone to such a permanent solution to a short term problem?

I imagine for the person committing suicide, they don't see the problem as short term. For them there is no light at the end of the tunnel, just more tunnel.

It definitely needs to be addressed. Throwing morality at is about as useful as pouring hot water into a chocolate teapot. People need to be able to talk without fearing condemnation from the high horse brigade. Mental health issues really need to be highlighted in this country and the shame stripped away from the whole situation.

I can only imagine how bleak a state a person must be in to contemplate ending their lives. They have my every sympathy and I only wish they realised that there are no problems that can't be overcome if they could just talk to someone about what they're going through.

smellmepower

AlanS181824 wrote: »

Suicide is an awful thing that seems to affect so many of us nowadays.

There should be proper mental health care organisations in palace to help prevent it.

Pieta House do a bloody good job at trying to prevent it (with very limited resources) speaking from personal experience.

Busted Flat.

berrygood wrote: »

I imagine for the person committing suicide, they don't see the problem as short term. For them there is no light at the end of the tunnel, just more tunnel.

It definitely needs to be addressed. Throwing morality at is about as useful as pouring hot water into a chocolate teapot. People need to be able to talk without fearing condemnation from the high horse brigade. Mental health issues really need to be highlighted in this country and the shame stripped away from the whole situation.

I can only imagine how bleak a state a person must be in to contemplate ending their lives. They have my every sympathy and I only wish they realised that there are no problems that can't be overcome if they could just talk to someone about what they're going through.

Excellent post. A close friend's 17 year old daughter took her own life some time ago, they still have no answers, the high horse brigade and church should clean up their own house before casting aspirations on kids and adults that take that final decision, they are unable to get to the light at the end of the tunnel.

My name is URL

SeaDaily wrote: »

72% of people must not understand depression.

Depression isn't the only thing that leads to suicide, though

Turtwig

It'd be nice to see how this 72% is broken down among different age groups. If it's proportionally the same between all age groups then I truly despair at this result.:(

Don't share others concerns about the "loopers" on the telephones carrying out the polls. The people chosen to answer the questions to are what matters. If they are part of a very select distribution that provides a fair representation of Irish society. Then the poll is representative of Irish answers likely given to the questions asked. Also important is how the questions were phrased. If it were presented in the tone of an either-or scenario then that could have skewed inaccuracy into the polls results. For example did the question mean

"Suicide is always morally unacceptable. Agree/disagree?"
or

"Suicide is sometimes morally unacceptable. Agree/Disagree."

And were people confused over which band the question actually fell.

berrygood

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Excellent post. A close friend's 17 year old daughter took her own life some time ago, they still have no answers, the high horse brigade and church should clean up their own house before casting aspirations on kids and adults that take that final decision, they are unable to get to the light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope her family are doing okay.

bnt

Not sure how can suicide be a "moral" issue at all. When I hear someone taking a "moral" position, what I actually hear is "thou shalt not, because I don't like it, and I don't have to explain why". :mad:

UCDVet

folamh wrote: »

The question is not what you have the right to do, it's what is moral to do. We have the freedom to do many immoral things.

I think I'd disagree with that; but I'm not sure what you have in mind.

To me, something is immoral when it violates the rights of others. If people consent to some activity, it isn't immoral at all. I know that, strictly speaking, a lot of definitions you could look up for 'moral' or 'immoral' deal with 'societal norms' and not some objective sense. But since this question is about our own individual sense or morality - I don't personally see any reason to consider suicide immoral.

I can't think of anything I should be free to do that is immoral.

Son Of A Vidic

P_1 wrote: »

72% believe suicide to be morally unacceptable, do you agree?

Agree that there appears to be an incredible amount of ignorant people out there? Yes, it would appear so.

aqn29swlgbmiu4

Imagine having locked in syndrome or like Robin Williams, early symptoms of Parkinsons.
If I ever developed Alzheimers/any kind of motor neuron disease I would definitely commit suicide.

folamh

UCDVet wrote: »

I think I'd disagree with that; but I'm not sure what you have in mind.

To me, something is immoral when it violates the rights of others. If people consent to some activity, it isn't immoral at all. I know that, strictly speaking, a lot of definitions you could look up for 'moral' or 'immoral' deal with 'societal norms' and not some objective sense. But since this question is about our own individual sense or morality - I don't personally see any reason to consider suicide immoral.

I can't think of anything I should be free to do that is immoral.

Here are some examples: you are free to break promises, call people rotting gutter *****, cheat on your partner and disallow Asian people to work for you. That doesn't mean you *should* do those things. There is a big difference between what you have the right to do and what is moral to do.

Silly poll the way it was asked. "Morality" isn't really the issue. Generally suicide is wrong and selfish (often ends up as a spiral of self-shame and self-obsession, whatever the underlying causes), but generalities aren't everything.

shruikan2553

Sound of Silence wrote: »

For those suffering with depression, suicide is often considered a way of unburdening others. They believe that by ending their lives, the lives of others will improve.

There is simply no room for selfishness for a person who lacks any self-worth. As such, suicide, whilst an incredibly unfortunate reality, is often made with the best intentions in the minds of those who suffer from the illness, no matter how twisted and destructive the decision might be for those around them.

This pretty much sums it up.

This is the best description for it. Its not selfishness, in fact they often think they are doing everyone a favour. I have seen the reactions of depressed people when you describe to them exactly what they are feeling. They are amazed when they see that someone actually understands them.

No idea what is meant by "morally unacceptable" though.

folamh

Kassidy Slow Moose wrote: »

Imagine having locked in syndrome or like Robin Williams, early symptoms of Parkinsons.
If I ever developed Alzheimers/any kind of motor neuron disease I would definitely commit suicide.

That's quite a thing to say. When push comes to shove and you actually get diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease (touch wood that doesn't happen), you would likely come to terms with the dreaded situation rather than killing yourself. The most unfortunate people on earth will not commit suicide because they will rationalize the most horrible of situations as better than the grim nothingness of death.

berrygood

folamh wrote: »

That's quite a thing to say. When push comes to shove and you actually get diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease (touch wood that doesn't happen), you would likely come to terms with the dreaded situation rather than killing yourself. The most unfortunate people on earth will not commit suicide because they will rationalize the most horrible of situations as better than the grim nothingness of death.

For some, grim reality is worse than the freedom afforded in death. Not everyone fears what may or may not lie beyond this world.

I think stigmatising suicide makes it that much harder for others who may be contemplating it to open up about their issues.