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BER rating looks too high

  • 17-08-2014 11:50AM
    #1
    little_monty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58 ✭✭


    Hi,

    I'm looking at buying a 1990's bungalow with C3 BER rating.
    (ive raised another thread on bidding strategy)

    I've read the BER report. I don't see anything incorrect in it .. but it is fairly vague (compared to the few other BER reports I've seen)

    Some more details :
    - bungalow built in 1990's
    - walls are ~14" so I assume 4"block + insulation + 4" block (no internal insulation)
    - windows/doors are double-glazed but they don't seem to be great quality, and are in 'poor shape' (draughts coming at window doors, obvious perishment in window)
    - there is an external oil boiler (less that 90% efficiency)
    - there is a stove in one room and open fire in another room
    - there is no heating thermostat / controls (just turn it on or off with timer)
    - there is insulation in the attic floor .. I doubt this is very substantial
    - there is one large room extension... I suspect the wall and roof insulation here are lower than rest of house !

    So do you think this BER is too high or I should bring up my suspicsions with EA ?


Comments

  • #2
    MicktheMan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,951 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    little_monty wrote: »
    So do you think this BER is too high or I should bring up my suspicsions with EA ?

    Impossible to say really. If you doubt the rating, you can always have your own ber assessor do a survey. But...

    Imo, the BER rating system on existing buildings is a nonsense as there is no real actual testing of the building and most inputs are default for the building period with no account being taken for workmanship or condition. Therefore the resulting rating is meaningless really and should not be relied upon for much. Best to get (and pay for) your own survey done with emphasis on energy efficiency or better still have a proper heat loss survey done.


  • #3
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    MicktheMan wrote: »
    ...Best to get (and pay for) your own survey done with emphasis on energy efficiency or better still have a proper heat loss survey done.

    Exactly.


  • #4
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,597 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    little_monty wrote: »
    Hi,

    I'm looking at buying a 1990's bungalow with C3 BER rating.
    (ive raised another thread on bidding strategy)

    I've read the BER report. I don't see anything incorrect in it .. but it is fairly vague (compared to the few other BER reports I've seen)

    Some more details :
    1.- bungalow built in 1990's
    2.- walls are ~14" so I assume 4"block + insulation + 4" block (no internal insulation)
    3.- windows/doors are double-glazed but they don't seem to be great quality, and are in 'poor shape' (draughts coming at window doors, obvious perishment in window)
    4.- there is an external oil boiler (less that 90% efficiency)
    5- there is a stove in one room and open fire in another room
    6.- there is no heating thermostat / controls (just turn it on or off with timer)
    7.- there is insulation in the attic floor .. I doubt this is very substantial
    8.- there is one large room extension... I suspect the wall and roof insulation here are lower than rest of house !

    So do you think this BER is too high or I should bring up my suspicsions with EA ?

    1. the only default u value that you can assume was inputted is the floor. if the wall construction can be verified, it can be calculated. same for roof

    2. the meter box may allow you to see the construction

    3. the assessment makes no comment of the quality or condition of the windows, just the materials used.

    4. 5. 6. all pretty standard up to 2005ish

    7. you should be able to measure it

    8. why do you suspect that? if its an recent extension and it take up a large portion of the external walls, the u values (and rating!) will be significantly increased.


  • #5
    little_monty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58 ✭✭little_monty


    Thanks for the replies everybody.

    I think the C3 rating can be explained BER not taking account of quality /condition (especially of the windows).

    Specifically on the extension, although it was built later it seems to be inferior to main house.
    (Its got sagging roof).
    Anyway from a cable box I could see there was only 20-30mm of insulated plasterboard on the wall.
    So I believe the extension wasn't checked as thoroughly as the main house !

    I wonder if main house has rating of C3, but say extension had rating of D3, should that pull the overall rating down to D3 ?


  • #6
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,597 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Extensions don't have ratings.

    You are making lots of assumptions about the assessment that are incorrect.


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  • #7
    little_monty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58 ✭✭little_monty


    "Extensions don't have ratings."

    Yeah, of course I agree ...

    but I'm just wondering IF part of a house was less well insulated (e.g. less wall and ceiling insulation) than 'majority' of house .. then how does that impact the overall BER rating.

    Should the BER reflect both the well and less well insulated parts of house ? or should the BER just be based on the poorer insulated parts ?


  • #8
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,597 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    little_monty wrote: »
    "Extensions don't have ratings."

    Yeah, of course I agree ...

    but I'm just wondering IF part of a house was less well insulated (e.g. less wall and ceiling insulation) than 'majority' of house .. then how does that impact the overall BER rating.

    Should the BER reflect both the well and less well insulated parts of house ? or should the BER just be based on the poorer insulated parts ?

    as i said, you are making assumptions about the assessment that are not correct

    1. the assessment is not a "heat loss survey"
    2. the assessment is non-invasive. If the construction cannot be full assessed visually, the default u values for the different elements are applied.
    3. generally extensions would have better default u values that the original dwelling, especially recent extensions.
    4. the assessment does not the standard or condition of materials ie if theres double glazed 12mm upvc windows, then thats whats inputted. Theres no option to include that 2 or 3 are draughty or warped etc.


  • #9
    RITwing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 ✭✭RITwing


    little_monty wrote: »
    but I'm just wondering IF part of a house was less well insulated (e.g. less wall and ceiling insulation) than 'majority' of house .. then how does that impact the overall BER rating.

    Should the BER reflect both the well and less well insulated parts of house ? or should the BER just be based on the poorer insulated parts ?

    It tends to drag the rating down.
    Posibly - but it does not (x 2).

    If you can get the contact details of the assessor see if s/he will accept an appointment from you to carry out "what if" scenarios with the asessment software. I think you would find that interesting and rewarding.


  • #10
    little_monty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58 ✭✭little_monty


    ok all.. thanks again for all the feedback!


  • #11
    blacktea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭blacktea


    I suspect you are trying to get a discount on the property based on a worse rating? i doubt it would make a difference to be honest, if anything it would ruffle feathers.

    we don't know the full picture so we cant say. You are not an assessor so you cant say. There could be one or more elements, such as the extension pulling the entire rating up to a C.

    as mick said, get a survey carried out with emphasis on energy, otherwise i would say you are wasting your money (with respect). Btw air tightness doesn't really come into it, for windows and the like, unless an at test was carried out which i doubt


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  • #12
    little_monty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58 ✭✭little_monty


    Just an update to say we've agreed to buy the house.

    RE the BER i accept it should be around C3 (I've used DEAP software to calculate it myself and came to D1 so very close).

    I will not try to get a discount on price based around anything to do with BER rating .. I was just concerned that other bidders might be 'misguided' about condition of the house based on the BER.


  • #13
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,721 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    little_monty wrote: »
    Just an update to say we've agreed to buy the house.

    RE the BER i accept it should be around C3 (I've used DEAP software to calculate it myself and came to D1 so very close).

    I will not try to get a discount on price based around anything to do with BER rating .. I was just concerned that other bidders might be 'misguided' about condition of the house based on the BER.

    Just goes to prove that which I've thought all along, and which flies in the face of the PR that the DoE/SEAI attached to the rollout of the BER in the first place: a low BER won't affect a sale at all. At the end of the day, there'll be someone else in line who won't even know what a BER is, and will want the house, and so you'll be in the position of 'do you want it or not' ?

    Besides, even if the BER was poor, and stood up to scrutiny to be so, you can still 'fix' it.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #14
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,597 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Just goes to prove that which I've thought all along, and which flies in the face of the PR that the DoE/SEAI attached to the rollout of the BER in the first place: a low BER won't affect a sale at all. At the end of the day, there'll be someone else in line who won't even know what a BER is, and will want the house, and so you'll be in the position of 'do you want it or not' ?

    Besides, even if the BER was poor, and stood up to scrutiny to be so, you can still 'fix' it.

    BERs really only affect sale prices where the properties are identical or extremely similar, like housing estates.

    One off rural dwellings have a lot more sales points ahead of the BER such as size, location, space, privacy etc


  • #15
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,721 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    BERs really only affect sale prices where the properties are identical or extremely similar, like housing estates.

    One off rural dwellings have a lot more sales points ahead of the BER such as size, location, space, privacy etc

    For the latter, sure.

    For the former: depends on the market. Galway has gone Ban-an-as, so it's like playing poker. People are paying daft money (sic) for some awful stuff.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #16
    RITwing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 ✭✭RITwing


    galwaytt wrote: »
    a low BER won't affect a sale at all. At the end of the day, there'll be someone else in line who won't even know what a BER is, and will want the house, and so you'll be in the position of 'do you want it or not' ?

    Indeed. We are not Germans.


  • #17
    caesarthechimp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 204 ✭✭caesarthechimp


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Just goes to prove that which I've thought all along, and which flies in the face of the PR that the DoE/SEAI attached to the rollout of the BER in the first place: a low BER won't affect a sale at all.
    At the end of the day, there'll be someone else in line who won't even know what a BER is, and will want the house, and so you'll be in the position of 'do you want it or not' ?
    No it doesn't prove that; this thread is about a house with a good BER, and lots of people bidding for it.
    galwaytt wrote: »
    Besides, even if the BER was poor, and stood up to scrutiny to be so, you can still 'fix' it.
    If you mean upgrade the house afterwards, that costs money. So if a buyer intended to do that, they would have to factor it in to the amount they were offering.


  • #18
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,721 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    caesarthechimp wrote: »
    No it doesn't prove that; this thread is about a house with a good BER, and lots of people bidding for it.
    .

    This thread is titled about a house that the OP thinks the BER looks too high on - not actually IS high. And which he's querying.

    My point about the irrelevance of BER to sales is still valid either way - it'll neither influence nor penalise anyone's choices really.

    To wit: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057292619

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #19
    MOTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭MOTM


    galwaytt wrote: »
    This thread is titled about a house that the OP thinks the BER looks too high on - not actually IS high. And which he's querying.

    My point about the irrelevance of BER to sales is still valid either way - it'll neither influence nor penalise anyone's choices really.

    To wit: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057292619

    Ask the ESRI: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/higher-energy-rating-can-boost-the-selling-price-of-house-by-10-256871.html


  • #20
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,721 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    MOTM wrote: »
    Ask the ESRI: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/higher-energy-rating-can-boost-the-selling-price-of-house-by-10-256871.html

    There is no hard data in that whatsoever. Unless they interviewed the actual buyers of property to determine whether the BER had any impact on their decision to buy we could as easily put it down to whether it had a big or small garden, a garage, nice driveway. The % they quote is too small to be significant outside that of the range to be expected.

    Interviewing sellers is irrelevant, it's the buyers who put their money where their mouth is that needs confirmation.

    And as for the ESRI. ..

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #21
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    I remember reading that when it was posted back in January and thinking that it was completely missing the point.

    In general houses with better ratings tend to be newer houses built to more recent standards. (Particularly so when existing BERs are carried out using assumptions based on date of construction.)

    Isn't it much more likely that a newer house attracts a premium over an older house due to people liking new vs dated?

    I'm not arguing that SOME of the differences between older and newer don't contribute to BER results but I seriously doubt people are making the price decision based on the kWh/m2/annum value on the BER Cert. Much more likely they walk into a newer house and say "this feels/looks nicer than that similar sized house next door that's 20 years older."

    tldr: Newer houses get better BER ratings so the price difference could easily be attributed to age differences between the properties.


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  • #22
    MOTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭MOTM


    I'm hoping the esri have the smarts and wherewithal to segregate out other differentiators from the BER .... had a quick look at bits of the report today and didn't see anything in there to say that they did.

    Just as well they don't give the govt policy advice....ooops.


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