How will history remember Cpt. Robert Nairac?

DarkyHughes

The SAS agent who has been hailed as a hero by some & a lawless maniac by others behind some of the worst atrocities during he mid 70's of the Troubles, linked to things like the Kingsmill massacre to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

until he got caught he had a very good run from around 71 - 76 getting a number of top IRA men when his cover was finally blown when he walked into a Republican pub (something he would regularly do to gather int. on Republicans) in South armagh & gave his name of that as a Official IRA man who had just died.

Those who call him a hero attribute this to his bringing to justice of some high profile IRA figures while operating dangerously deep in enemy territory

The ones who say he was a maniac are some high profile British Army members who say he organized the Dublin bombings & other massacres like kingsmill & the Miami showband killings because he was against the 75 ceasefire & wanted inflame sectarian tensions (he was a Catholic himself) & he was also involved with the Clockwork Orange operation, a military coup that would go ahead if Labor pulled out of Ireland & overthrow the government.

Opinions?

Judgement Day

How about some links to back up all your anecdotes of who said what about him? All I know is that his body has never turned up.

tac foley

DarkyHughes wrote: »

The SAS agent who has been hailed as a hero by some & a lawless maniac by others behind some of the worst atrocities during he mid 70's of the Troubles, linked to things like the Kingsmill massacre to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

until he got caught he had a very good run from around 71 - 76 getting a number of top IRA men when his cover was finally blown when he walked into a Republican pub (something he would regularly do to gather int. on Republicans) in South armagh & gave his name of that as a Official IRA man who had just died.

Those who call him a hero attribute this to his bringing to justice of some high profile IRA figures while operating dangerously deep in enemy territory

The ones who say he was a maniac are some high profile British Army members who say he organized the Dublin bombings & other massacres like kingsmill & the Miami showband killings because he was against the 75 ceasefire & wanted inflame sectarian tensions (he was a Catholic himself) & he was also involved with the Clockwork Orange operation, a military coup that would go ahead if Labor pulled out of Ireland & overthrow the government.

Opinions?

Opinions are like ***holes. everybody has one.

Let's be seeing some real evidence behind your preposterous accusations, and I'm sure that our opinions will follow pretty quickly.

So far, all we've heard is opinions of 'others'. Would I be far too off the mark in thinking that in posting this diatribe of alleged infamy that you share them?

Time to put up, Sir, or shut up.

tac

pedroeibar1

Welcome back Tac!

tac foley

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Welcome back Tac!

I couldn't let such errant and baseless tripe information comment calumny opinion go unnoticed.

That last sentence is ludicrous in the extreme.

I call Bullshirt.

tac

Fratton Fred

Some say he's the Stig.

Jimminy Mc Fukhead

Captain Nairac was a spy,
Where is Captain Nairac nigh.

Judgement Day

Jimminy Mc Fukhead wrote: »

Captain Nairac was a spy,
Where is Captain Nairac nigh.

After Hours....> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=7

>

Jimminy Mc Fukhead

Judgement Day wrote: »

After Hours....> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=7

>

The above was a rhyme you'd hear from kids in catholic areas of belfast once upon a time. All human knowledge is precious whether or not it serves the slightest human use.

DarkyHughes

Judgement Day wrote: »

How about some links to back up all your anecdotes of who said what about him? All I know is that his body has never turned up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNvZHDafi38

At 32:48 the former British officers talk about Nairacs role in the Dublin bomings.

Ken Livingstone mentioned him several times in parliament about linked to massacres. I'm sure you could find it pretty easy.

http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/sep10_Nairac_command_Miami_Showband_Massacre.php

He was one of the people present at the Miami Showband massacre. Either he's correct or a liar.

"I never blamed the people who carried out the atrocity, although I condemn what they did," he said.

"They were pawns being manipulated by a much bigger agenda.

"I never wanted to tar the unionist people with what was done to us that night."

He strongly believes that the Englishman who gave the order for their murders was in fact SAS-trained Captain Robert Nairac, who two years later was abducted, killed and his body secretly disposed of by the IRA in south Armagh.

"The guy who gave the orders was definitely a well-educated English, military man," he said.

"I remember hearing his clipped English tones and seeing him standing there like an action man in his fatigues.

"He was definitely the man in charge. I am convinced it was Robert Nairac."

Beano

DarkyHughes wrote: »

The SAS agent ...

what exactly is an SAS agent? the SAS are soldiers. Anyway, he wasnt SAS. He may have received training from them (as would most members of 14 INT, the unit he was actually part of).

pedroeibar1

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Ken Livingstone mentioned him several times in parliament about linked to massacres. I'm sure you could find it pretty easy.

"The guy who gave the orders was definitely a well-educated English, military man," he said.

"I remember hearing his clipped English tones and seeing him standing there like an action man in his fatigues.

"He was definitely the man in charge.

Hmmmm. Definitely proof, that, but......we have to consider that fits 100% of British Army officers.

tac foley

Dear Mr Hughes, thank you for posting those interesting links. Until you did so I had never heard of them, but then, in both cases they were published/transmitted in the RoI, and at the time of those occurences - some twenty years ago - I was four thousand miles away, so I can hardly be blamed for missing out on them. I note that in the intervening years ago nothing has been done to bring the [surviving] perpetrators to justice.

And for Mr pedroeibar1, I was a officer in the British Army, and nobody has ever accused ME of having 'clipped' English tones.

tac

Ralphdejones

He was just another Dickhead who thought Paddy was an ejit

who the fug

AS ever with Northern Ireland 2 + 2 = 5

From reading about him , I reckon more Walter Mitty than super SAS agent, to go to a rural pub pretending to be Irish.

roundymac

I remember reading a report some years ago(no link) in a Sunday paper that his body was taken to a nearby meat factory and put through the mincer. Not a very nice thought.

Ralphdejones

who the fug wrote: »

AS ever with Northern Ireland 2 + 2 = 5

From reading about him , I reckon more Walter Mitty than super SAS agent, to go to a rural pub pretending to be Irish.

A complete walter that fancied playing secret agent / pub entertainer / man about town, fed on a diet of two many WWII comics, and who got very quickly exposed.

Ralphdejones

roundymac wrote: »

I remember reading a report some years ago(no link) in a Sunday paper that his body was taken to a nearby meat factory and put through the mincer. Not a very nice thought.

The burgers and sausages sold very well in the chippers of Newry and Dundalk

Beano

Ralphdejones wrote: »

A complete walter that fancied playing secret agent / pub entertainer / man about town, fed on a diet of two many WWII comics, and who got very quickly exposed.

he did four tours in NI so he must have convinced a few people.

Ralphdejones

Beano wrote: »

he did four tours in NI so he must have convinced a few people.

He didn't do 4 tours of the pubs in Armagh. Outside the barracks is a very different world.

Beano

Ralphdejones wrote: »

He didn't do 4 tours of the pubs in Armagh. Outside the barracks is a very different world.

his first tour was with the grenadier guards but the three subsequent were with military intelligence.

Ralphdejones

Beano wrote: »

military intelligence.

now there's a classic contradiction in terms if ever there was one

An sas officer singing in pubs in armagh is not very itelligent

Beano

Ralphdejones wrote: »

now there's a classic contradiction in terms if ever there was one

a unique observation indeed.

Ralphdejones wrote: »

An sas officer singing in pubs in armagh is not very itelligent

he wasnt an sas officer.

robp

roundymac wrote: »

I remember reading a report some years ago(no link) in a Sunday paper that his body was taken to a nearby meat factory and put through the mincer. Not a very nice thought.

That suggestion comes from a rumour the provo Eamon Collins heard and later published in his book. Some years later it was denied. I don't anyone knows if it is true. A lot of internal information in IRA circles was just rumours and often is highly inaccurate.

Fratton Fred

Ralphdejones wrote: »

The burgers and sausages sold very well in the chippers of Newry and Dundalk

Nice.

icecold1066

We will never know for sure what Nairac's role really was unless a file exists somewhere in British miliitary intelligence archives.
The politicians, generals and spymasters who ran British operations in Northern Ireland and pulled the strings are mostly dead now or are old men who will feign senility if they are ever asked about Nairac if they are not actually senile by now.
Most of the loyalists who worked with Nairac are also dead.
Nairac and activities will probably remain murky.

Santa Cruz

Like those on the other side it's easy to create myths about Nairac. We will never know his purpose/role with the British Army. The rumour about the meat factory is just that, a rumour, convenient because of the presence of a meat factory in Ravensdale. More than likely buried in the Cooleys and those who buried him are dead as well.

Fratton Fred

You have to wonder how someone with a crisp English accent thought they could get away with going in to republican pubs.

tac foley

Apparently, the late Capt Nairac was a gifted mimic, and able to replicate with some degree of plausability the various accents of the locale in which he was operating.

However, from my own experience of Northern Ireland, the local 'ear' is very finely tuned to even the slightest nuances of accent, from one end of a town mainstreet to the other, and this may have contributed to his eventual downfall.

tac

Snickers Man

How will he be remembered?

Probably in this little couplet, designed to illustrate the subtleties of the Belfast accent. (It only rhymes if you speak Bolfost.)

Captain Nairac was a spy
Where's Captain Nairac now?

tac foley

This is funny?

How to win friends and influence people.

Not.

tac

galwaycyclist

tac foley wrote: »

This is funny?

How to win friends and influence people.

Not.

tac

In fairness Tac if you come from a community that believed Nairac organised the murder of unarmed musicians (among others) then I'd say it would get a good giggle.

Robert Nairacs predecessors in the Cairo gang et al tried the same "undercover" stuff in Dublin in the 1920s and any who were identified paid the price.

its not like we're talking Geneva convention here. There can have been no doubt of the outcome if he got caught. Nor could there be any expectation of sympathy.

pedroeibar1

Snickers Man wrote: »

How will he be remembered?

Probably in this little couplet, designed to illustrate the subtleties of the Belfast accent. (It only rhymes if you speak Bolfost.)

Captain Nairac was a spy
Where's Captain Nairac now?

That was already posted in #7

Personally I find it odd that a Mod would thank such a post.

Snickers Man

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

That was already posted in #7

Just goes to show how well known a couplet it is. OK it's black humour, (as is common in the North) but the butt of the joke is really the Belfast accent.

RoadhouseBlues

DarkyHughes wrote: »

The SAS agent who has been hailed as a hero by some & a lawless maniac by others behind some of the worst atrocities during he mid 70's of the Troubles, linked to things like the Kingsmill massacre to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

until he got caught he had a very good run from around 71 - 76 getting a number of top IRA men when his cover was finally blown when he walked into a Republican pub (something he would regularly do to gather int. on Republicans) in South armagh & gave his name of that as a Official IRA man who had just died.

Those who call him a hero attribute this to his bringing to justice of some high profile IRA figures while operating dangerously deep in enemy territory

The ones who say he was a maniac are some high profile British Army members who say he organized the Dublin bombings & other massacres like kingsmill & the Miami showband killings because he was against the 75 ceasefire & wanted inflame sectarian tensions (he was a Catholic himself) & he was also involved with the Clockwork Orange operation, a military coup that would go ahead if Labor pulled out of Ireland & overthrow the government.

Opinions?

First of all, I'm no expert. I only discovered this story bout 6 years ago. But in all fairness, he sounds like he had some personality issues. Christ we all do, but I think he wanted to be the hero or maybe the one who wrapped everything up. I read an interview bout an Ira fella who was there at the time. He said RN was the bravest fella he ever seen. He said he got the gun from the crowd who got him, but it jammed. Only for that he would have got away. That could be rubbish but we will never know.

jonniebgood1

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

That was already posted in #7

Personally I find it odd that a Mod would thank such a post.

The couplet is a very accurate reflection of how he is remembered in many sections of the north- I find it odd that this is not clear to one and all. Refer to thread title. Not everyone analyses history from a book so the couplet contains a hell of a lot more than it appears on the surface. I read into it as containing gallows humour but perhaps also a more sinister message/ warning. The rhyme or variants of it were used as a tool in some quarters to tease/ threaten soldiers. Also the fact that it is so well known means that in reality it may be the first reply from many people in the north when faced with the question in the thread title.

On a seperate note a mod is allowed thank any damn post they want for whatever reason they wish. In this case the post was thanked for the reason stated above, not that I should need to justify it.

Whelo79

Sorry for reviving such an old thread but it makes for interesting reading after this was released yesterday

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/01/24/news/mod-documents-link-robert-niarac-linked-to-miami-showband-massacre-1823416/

steddyeddy

tac foley wrote: »

Opinions are like ***holes. everybody has one.

Let's be seeing some real evidence behind your preposterous accusations, and I'm sure that our opinions will follow pretty quickly.

So far, all we've heard is opinions of 'others'. Would I be far too off the mark in thinking that in posting this diatribe of alleged infamy that you share them?

Time to put up, Sir, or shut up.

tac

I genuinely don't know whether these sorts of posts are indicative of a general ignorance of the events and claims over the years or as a defence of anything to do with the British army. How on earth was intelligence from the RUC, senior army officers and many others involved in the intelligence services to be considered preposterous? It's well established that there was terrorist-British security force cooperation during the troubles and Nairac was a pivotal character in all this.

The put up, as you describe it comes in form of MOD intelligence and documents relating to Nairac. Link from the BBC.

British Army intelligence documents have linked undercover soldier Robert Nairac to the Miami Showband massacre, The Irish News has revealed.

Three members of the band were killed by the UVF on a rural road after a gig in Banbridge, County Down, in 1975.

The Irish News says the documents, seen for the first time, suggest the British soldier obtained equipment and uniforms for the killers and was responsible for the planning and execution of the attack.

The papers were released to a solicitor representing the widow of Miami Showband lead singer Fran O'Toole.

Capt Nairac was abducted by the IRA while on an undercover operation in a pub in south Armagh in 1977. His body has never been found.

BalcombeSt4

Depends on what side of the fence you're on.

If your on the pro-British Army occupation of Ireland he will be remembered as a great soldier.

If your on the Irish National Liberation and civil rights causes he will be remembered as man who committed massacre all over Ireland. Kingsmill, Miami, John Francis Green, Dublin & Monaghan, Kays Tavern Dundalk, Castleblaney. Based at the huge Castledillon military base, if Holroyd, Weir & Collin Wallace are to be believed he's helped to kill over 40 people.

I think his activity down South should be looked at more closely & the British Army in general. In 1976 around the time Nairac was running around, an eight man SAS unit armed with shotguns & SMG's were arrested by the Gardai after crossing into Louth. What was a heavily armed SAS unit doing in the South of Ireland? This type of thing with undercover soldiers crossing the border happened all the time around the the mid 70's, after Nairac was killed Loyalist attacks in the South seemed to magically stop. The UDA used some firebombs in Donegal in the 1980's bu these were clear amateur bombs, no bigger than a box of fags, kids stuff, nothing like the very sophisticated 400 lb car bombs used in Dublin & Monaghan or Belurbet, Pettigo, Clones, Dundalk etc.

So I view Nairac as a very skilled & good soldier, but a horrible human. being.