woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

mrsbyrne

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/pregnant-woman-refused-abortion-gives-birth-by-caesarean-30512038.html

The psyches decided there was no real threat of suicide so no abortion.
She's offered a C Section. Not good enough. Baby must die or ill kill both of us. Goes on hunger strike (,according to radio). Eventually relents and surgeon has to lift what appears to be a perfectly healthy baby out of its safe home . I don't understand. Can someone explain how this is progress please

MOD NOTE:
As there's been more and more developments in this story, the original post above was quoting from an article that was incorrect. The main points known so far are as follows:

• The woman in question allegedly became pregnant after she was raped.
• She is a foreign national and could not go abroad for an abortion due to her legal status.
• It is claimed she requested an abortion at 8 weeks, but was refused (currently for unknown reasons)
• A panel judged her to be suicidal and by law an abortion would be allowed.
• By this time, she was then 23 weeks pregnant and the decision was made to deliver the baby by C section.

These points are the latest I have read on the matter and may change, but several users requested the OP be amended as few will be willing to read through over 1400 posts.


Mod Note 2: Keep discussion to the actual case at hand. It's not for convincing people why your opinion on abortion is right and theirs is wrong.

Matt_Trakker

Why didn't she just got to England like most others who want an abortion?

PucaMama

mrsbyrne wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/pregnant-woman-refused-abortion-gives-birth-by-caesarean-30512038.html

The psyches decided there was no real threat of suicide so no abortion.
She's offered a C Section. Not good enough. Baby must die or ill kill both of us. Goes on hunger strike (,according to radio). Eventually relents and surgeon has to lift what appears to be a perfectly healthy baby out of its safe home . I don't understand. Can someone explain how this is progress please

So even though she had the option of a section she still wanted the baby killed. Disgusting.

Clandestine

If the abortion law hadn't been so restrictive it wouldn't have gone that far in the first place.

Penny Tration

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Why didn't she just got to England like most others who want an abortion?

Not many people have the guts of a thousand euro available at the drop of a hat? Also, if she was truly suicidal (I don't know her, so can't comment on that), the abortion legislation should have given her the right to have one in Ireland.

Penny Tration

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Why didn't she just got to England like most others who want an abortion?

Not many people have the guts of a thousand euro available at the drop of a hat? Also, if she was truly suicidal (I don't know her, so can't comment on that), the abortion legislation should have given her the right to have one in Ireland.

mrsbyrne

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Why didn't she just got to England like most others who want an abortion?

Because we decided that if you are suicidal then you must be allowed an abortion ? Why have all the expenses and inconvenience of going to UK when you don't have to?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Glad that the baby was delivered healthy

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Why didn't she just got to England like most others who want an abortion?

Perhaps we want to be treated like we actually have rights in this country.

fro9etb8j5qsl2

Oh here we go again.... The article doesn't give enough information on the woman's situation or circumstance for anyone to make a judgement on her. But no doubt, the usual lynch mob will come out in force....

mrsbyrne

green_screen wrote: »

Not many people have the guts of a thousand euro available at the drop of a hat? Also, if she was truly suicidal (I don't know her, so can't comment on that), the abortion legislation should have given her the right to have one in Ireland.

But she was examined by the appropriate medics who declared her as not genuinely suicidal.

Penny Tration

PucaMama wrote: »

So even though she had the option of a section she still wanted the baby killed. Disgusting.

A woman is suicidal and doesn't want a child. She's subsequently given the option of having the child. The child she doesn't want. How is she disgusting for not wanting the child, and turning down the offer to have the child?

Manach

Because the quaint and old-fashion nation of the sanctity of all human life and that extends to the unborn.

Matt_Trakker

green_screen wrote: »

Not many people have the guts of a thousand euro available at the drop of a hat? Also, if she was truly suicidal (I don't know her, so can't comment on that), the abortion legislation should have given her the right to have one in Ireland.

1000 euro? Well, she hardly wanted 2 abortions.

You can also pay for an abortion at a private clinic. The cost (around £400 or more)

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Sexualhealth/Pages/Abortionyouroptions.aspx

Penny Tration

mrsbyrne wrote: »

But she was examined by the appropriate medics who declared her as not genuinely suicidal.

Oh yeah, I know. I was saying IF she were suicidal, the legislation should have allowed for abortion.

mrsbyrne

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Glad that the baby was delivered healthy

Nowhere does it say the baby is/was healthy. Just alive.

Penny Tration

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

1000 euro? Well, she hardly wanted 2 abortions.

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Sexualhealth/Pages/Abortionyouroptions.aspx

So, around 600 euro for the procedure. Flights that may be at short notice. Accommodation. Food. As I said, guts of 1000 euro

mrsbyrne

PucaMama wrote: »

So even though she had the option of a section she still wanted the baby killed. Disgusting.

Thate whst the Irish people demanded. You cant complain now when thats what you got.

Matt_Trakker

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Because we decided that if you are suicidal then you must be allowed an abortion ? Why have all the expenses and inconvenience of going to UK when you don't have to?

Just coz it's handy enough to get a plane to liverpool and have it done there without all the botheration of going to see psychologists, doctors etc here.

PucaMama

green_screen wrote: »

A woman is suicidal and doesn't want a child. She's subsequently given the option of having the child. The child she doesn't want. How is she disgusting for not wanting the child, and turning down the offer to have the child?

This child did not deserve to lose its life because its mother was suicidal. Were not talking a bout a mother 8 weeks pregnant here. There is no fairness in this to the child

Matt_Trakker

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Why didn't she just got to England like most others who want an abortion?

It reads to me that she was too far along for an abortion, so a section was the only option. It said she was in the second trimester, so could have been have been as much as 26 weeks pregnant.

mrsbyrne

Clandestine wrote: »

If the abortion law hadn't been so restrictive it wouldn't have gone that far in the first place.

You don't even want to give the baby the chance in the incubator? Why?

PucaMama

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Thate whst the Irish people demanded. You cant complain now when thats what you got.

No I didn't demand that how dare you

mrsbyrne

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It reads to me that she was too far along for an abortion, so a section was the only option. It said she was in the second trimester, so could have been have been as much as 26 weeks pregnant.

No. Under the new legislation if you are proven suicidal you can have an abortion at any stage. The medics decided she wasn't suicidal.

Penny Tration

PucaMama wrote: »

This child did not deserve to lose its life because its mother was suicidal. Were not talking a bout a mother 8 weeks pregnant here. There is no fairness in this to the child

Except, it's a foetus. Not a child.

mrsbyrne

PucaMama wrote: »

No I didn't demand that how dare you

Well if enough people had protested it wouldn't have happend do like it or not we are all to blame.

Clandestine

PucaMama wrote: »

This child did not deserve to lose its life because its mother was suicidal. Were not talking a bout a mother 8 weeks pregnant here. There is no fairness in this to the child

Its damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If this situation had gotten worse and mother took her own life then they'd both be dead, which could have been a potential outcome here.

Would that have been a better outcome, rather than giving her an abortion and guaranteeing saving at least one of them?

PucaMama

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Well if enough people had protested it wouldn't have happend do like it or not we are all to blame.

**** that I'm not taking blame for the immorality around abortion in ireland

leeroybrown

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

1000 euro? Well, she hardly wanted 2 abortions.

We're talking about a second trimester abortion here. The £400 cost quoted in this thread is for a medical abortion (a few pills) in a supervised environment. Get into the realm of an anaesthetised second trimester abortion and you're talking double that or more.

PucaMama

Clandestine wrote: »

Its damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If this situation had gotten worse and mother took her own life then they'd both be dead, which could have been a potential outcome here.

Would that have been a better outcome, rather than giving her an abortion and guaranteeing saving at least one of them?

But she wasn't suicidal and was given an option to end the pregnancy

Molester Stallone II

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No. Under the new legislation if you are proven suicidal you can have an abortion at any stage. The medics decided she wasn't suicidal.

And yet she still tried to take her own life

Penny Tration

PucaMama wrote: »

**** that I'm not taking blame for the immorality around abortion in ireland

Some find forcing a woman to give birth to be immoral.

mrsbyrne

green_screen wrote: »

Except, it's a foetus. Not a child.

So it was a foetus as the surgeon cut into her abdomen and seconds later it's a child? No rights one minute next minute entitled to food and warmth? Are you nuts?

leeroybrown

PucaMama wrote: »

No I didn't demand that how dare you

The Irish People of whom you're one did demand that right by referendum. Like it or not you're one of us.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

PucaMama wrote: »

This child did not deserve to lose its life because its mother was suicidal. Were not talking a bout a mother 8 weeks pregnant here. There is no fairness in this to the child

It's not a child

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No. Under the new legislation if you are proven suicidal you can have an abortion at any stage. The medics decided she wasn't suicidal.

And that's the problem, I don't buy all this medical review BS
Abortions for some, tiny american flags for others.

Just get with the times and allow an adult woman to choose what to do with her own body.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

mrsbyrne wrote: »

So it was a foetus as the surgeon cut into her abdomen and seconds later it's a child? No rights one minute next minute entitled to food and warmth? Are you nuts?

That's correct.
It's a foetus until it is born at which point it becomes a child.

Czarcasm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/pregnant-woman-refused-abortion-gives-birth-by-caesarean-30512038.html

The psyches decided there was no real threat of suicide so no abortion.
She's offered a C Section. Not good enough. Baby must die or ill kill both of us. Goes on hunger strike (,according to radio). Eventually relents and surgeon has to lift what appears to be a perfectly healthy baby out of its safe home . I don't understand. Can someone explain how this is progress please

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Nowhere does it say the baby is/was healthy. Just alive.

Forgive me pointing out the obvious here, but there appears to be some confusion as to whether the baby was healthy or not.

Penny Tration

mrsbyrne wrote: »

So it was a foetus as the surgeon cut into her abdomen and seconds later it's a child? No rights one minute next minute entitled to food and warmth? Are you nuts?

If we're going by medical definitions, pretty much. It's a part of the woman's body, an extension of it, until such time that the cord is cut.

Lia_lia

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No. Under the new legislation if you are proven suicidal you can have an abortion at any stage. The medics decided she wasn't suicidal.

At any stage? So even if the baby can be born healthy at that stage?

I would call myself pro-choice, but that's a bit mad! That being said, if abortion was legal over here she would have had one much sooner.

mrsbyrne

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

And yet she still tried to take her own life

Are you saying the qualified people are wrong? How did she try to take her own life? Hunger strike? She soon quit?

leeroybrown

And now we have another abortion thread...

I (pro-choice) think that all the pro-lifers on this thread are sick monsters for wanting to force the pregnancy to go to term. All the pro-lifers will think I'm a sick monster for wanting the mother to have the right to abort.

Nothing more to discuss. End of thread.

mrsbyrne

green_screen wrote: »

If we're going by medical definitions, pretty much. It's a part of the woman's body, an extension of it, until such time that the cord is cut.

A baby has his own heart lung brains . This is crazy.

Matt_Trakker

green_screen wrote: »

So, around 600 euro for the procedure. Flights that may be at short notice. Accommodation. Food. As I said, guts of 1000 euro

err...yea, you do know that you stay in the place where you get the operation, it's not like getting a wort lanced. So accommodation and food are in the price of 400 pounds which is 500euro plus you can fly to liverpool, newcastle, london etc for around a tenner. You have a good few weeks to decide after finding out you're pregnant to book the flights.

UCDVet

I'm not for or against abortion - but doesn't it seem like we should legalize suicide first?

If an adult wants to end their life - it's against the law for anyone to assist them. In many places, attempting suicide will land them in a mental hospital (against their wishes).

It seems odd to me that we're more concerned about being able to end another life when we can't choose to end our own.

Penny Tration

mrsbyrne wrote: »

A baby has his own heart lung brains . This is crazy.

So does a foetus. While it's in the uterus, it's a foetus, medically speaking. Calling it a baby, when it's not, is emotional bollocks thrown about by militant pro-lifers.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

green_screen wrote: »

So, around 600 euro for the procedure. Flights that may be at short notice. Accommodation. Food. As I said, guts of 1000 euro

The Marie Stopes clinic in England charges people from Ireland less for abortions as they take into consideration flights ect

leeroybrown

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

err...yea, you do know that you stay in the place where you get the operation, it's not like getting a wort lanced. So accommodation and food are in the price of 400 pounds which is 500euro plus you can fly to liverpool, newcastle, london etc for around a tenner. You have a good few weeks to decide after finding out you're pregnant to book the flights.

As pointed out above the £400 is the cost of a supervised medical abortion (they're jokingly referred to as "lunchtime abortions"). It's at the very bottom of the scale and is only applicable early in the pregnancy. A second trimester abortion would cost at least double that.

Penny Tration

LexieOnRale wrote: »

The Marie Stopes clinic in England charges people from Ireland less for abortions as they take into consideration flights ect

So does BPAS. Still works out being a bit under a grand when everything is taken into consideration.

Calibos

Lifelong atheist here who is not totally anti abortion but I am not Pro Choice either. Theres a lot of things in life we are not allowed a Choice on for very good reasons. There a lot of things in life that we are forced to take responsibility for to a point.

In many other countries that baby would have had its spine cut at the neck with shears to complete the 'abortion'

mrsbyrne

Czarcasm wrote: »

Forgive me pointing out the obvious here, but there appears to be some confusion as to whether the baby was healthy or not.

The baby was perfectly healthy where it was. Taking it out of that environment at that stage of its life was life-threatening. Whats confusing about that?

Matt_Trakker

green_screen wrote: »

Calling it a baby, when it's not, is emotional bollocks thrown about by militant pro-lifers.

Yep