DNF

Ososlo

So Rob Heffernan dnf'd this morning because "when first and second were gone from me, I just didn't want third, or fourth. I came here to win, and that just wasn't to be.' His wife encouraged him to keep going and finish. He tried again, but gave up as he 'wanted to win' he 'didn't want to finish sixth.'

So, bad attitude and bad example or understandable?

Also on a personal level, have you done this and for what reason?

ThisRegard

I'm way off his level but I don't see the point of purposely DNF'ing. Believe me, I've been in the situation plenty of times where I say to myself, F this, I'll pretend I'm injured so and bail out, this is too tough. But you're only letting yourself down, in my opinion.

menoscemo

UM1 posted an interesting article on this a while ago:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90064491

I'd agree with the article about 90% and I am sure that is what happened rob today. Glad he admitted as much afterwards and didn't pretend to be injured...

Enduro

There are plenty of reason's one can have to finish the race no matter what. There are also reason's one can have for deliberately DNFing. Context is key in sorting out which factors should even come into consideration.

He's an athlete at the very top of the pile. He is the reigning world champion. That's the key context. And its very diffirent to every other current Irish Athlete. He has years and years of race experience at the top level behind him. Most of the factors that should be in someone's mind to keep them racing just don't apply here. (Gain experience, lay down a marker, prove that you can mix it at a high level and have potential to go on to podium on a better day etc etc).

His reasoning for pulling out sounds perfectly logical to me, given the context. Since he was mentally disengaging from the race he probably had more to loose than gain by finishing for finishing sake. Better to cut losses and move straight to the next target/goal (and ignore everyone dwelling on this race).

walshb

For me an intentional quit job shows a lack of respect and character at that time.

rainbow kirby

DNF'd a 10k about 3 years ago after 3km, was going backwards pace-wise from the start and just really wasn't feeling it at all. Turned out in a blood test a couple of weeks later that I was quite anaemic at the time.

Probably should have DNF'd the Great North Run 2 years ago too, after ending up in the physio tent at mile 10...

pconn062

I haven't seen this race and no nothing about it but in general I don't think an athlete should DNF just because the win or gold medal is gone. I prefer the African attitude which is generally to finish no matter what. I remember seeing Tiki Gelana in the London marathon last year (I think), she got hit by a wheelchair competitor and a few kilometers later she feel way off the pace. But nevertheless she finished the race in some ridiculously slow time and there was something about that I admired.

Ososlo

Cork Running Blog report it that it was a case of him 'having to withdraw' which is clearly not true.

pistol_75

To me this was his goal race of the year and it's not like there are races for him to compete in every couple of weeks. To say that he wasn't interested in 3rd is a bit of a cop out for me. A medal is a medal at the end of the day and despite him being world champion it's not like he has a plethora of medals behind that.

At his age it's not like he will have too many more major championships to compete in and may come to regret that decision. Maybe he wasn't expecting it but it seems his competitors have upped their act and he wasn't prepared for it.

From a personal point of view I have had some horrible races and blow ups but never really comprehended not finishing a race however bad it was.

Sacksian

Bear in mind that to get to RH's level of achievement, he's done 000s of sessions and races where he has refused to quit. Particularly for endurance events, it's hours and hours of relentless training every week, year after year.

Think of how many training sessions or races that you've binned, and consider them as a proportion of the total volume of training you've done. Do the same with a top level endurance athlete, and it'll be an absolute aberration or they don't get to that level.

If after putting himself through all that consistent training, he decides not to finish, there has to be an appreciation of how serious that decision is for him in terms of his overall training and commitment to excellence.

Same with any performance at the highest level in sport. To get to the level where millions of people are dissecting your performance, you've proved yourself over and over again in front of increasingly bigger audiences.

Having said that, I've always thought that Alistair Cragg fails to finish a large proportion of his target races so I'm probably a bit of a hypocrite.

Alvin Holler

Not really referring to this race today but I always think that athletes should finish as high as possible as with the amount of drug failures these days, silver can became gold, 4th can become bronze fairly easily.

Obviously it's not the same as getting it on the day but still a medal is a medal.

gerard_65

In general I don't think you should ever DNF unless its medical. Struggling through a bad race can mentally toughen you and you learn just how much discomfort you can take. You can learn to push your comfort zone further out.

alaimacerc

Ososlo wrote: »

So, bad attitude and bad example or understandable?

Maybe a bit of all three?

I think voluntary DNFing is understandable. Even if you're not "medically unable to finish", you might be doing yourself damage, or at least setting yourself back in your training and race programme for the rest of the year by continuing, and if you've lost the motivation to compete, it seems harsh for outsiders to be insisting you finish. Certainly more understandable than quitting a round of golf in a fit of pique, at any rate.

On the other hand, "I didn't fancy it" is a crassly bad rationale. Particularly as he's essentially crapping on the idea of finishing "only" third as worthless... which somewhat casts a down on the rest of the RTE report where they're then attempting to big up the guy that's finished 16th in a PB.

Then again, other evidence is suggestive that Our Rob has a crassly bad attitude in general, so it's hardly a shock. Doubtless he'll be defended on the "ordinary bloke" grounds that have been wheeled out before. Whether people more articulate (or at least, more middle class) in their rationalisations actually have a "better attitude" or not seem problematic to determine objectively.

RacoonQueen

When you're mentally struggling in a race as it sounds like he was there is no way back IMO. When you expect, or worse, other people expect you to be much further up the field the strain of not being able to push on can be horrific.

Sometimes grinding it out can be a really bad idea too...your poor performance on any particular day may have underlying causes.

Krusty_Clown

If you finish a race in fifth or sixth, at least you know exactly where you stand. If you DNF, then you can make excuses. It was likely the right thing to do for Rob at that particular point in time, but in the long run (pardon the pun) may not serve him too well.

There was one race where I probably should have DNF'ed but didn't, opting at the time to limp the last six miles of the half marathon to the finish line. I have no doubt that it prolonged my injury, but now, years afterwards, the lesson I learned was massively valuable and I haven't had a proper injury since. Two things differentiate my circumstance from Rob's though; I don't train to his standard and I'm not Rob. Just as nobody here has a right to determine whether I finish a race or not, same rule applies to Rob (including his wife Marian). He is an individual competing at world standard level, and just because some of his funding comes from public funding, it doesn't mean we get a vote in how he runs his races. We're not there when he trains every day, yet we're happy to join in the celebrations when he wins. If he performs poorly, we don't suddenly earn the right to make judgements.

gerard_65

But you should still be entitled to an opinion on someone representing your country.
Rob has no problem tweeting some of his opinions.

skittles8710

I don't think I'd ever DNF unless I had a niggle that I could exacerbate by carrying on or a serious injury. If a race was going badly for other reasons I'd try and learn as much as possible from it for future events

ThisRegard

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

ITwo things differentiate my circumstance from Rob's though; I don't train to his standard and I'm not Rob.

3, you were injured though.

walshb

No issue with a DNF due to an injury, or the possibility of prolonging an injury by fighting to finish. Seems Rob quit because the race wasn't going his way. That to me is juts a quit job.

alaimacerc

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

He is an individual competing at world standard level, and just because some of his funding comes from public funding, it doesn't mean we get a vote in how he runs his races.

Though I suppose we do (indirectly) get a vote on whether to continue said funding afterwards...

As I said, I don't think we should be getting too "judgy" about whether he should have finished the race or not. But I think there's a time and a place to say "Rob, quit flippin' talking. You're not helping yourself."

ThePiedPiper

I've never DNFed a race, and I am damn proud of that. When I've invested so much of my time, and my family's time and made a lot of sacrifices, I don't think I could bring myself to DNF. in the Berlin marathon in 08, I came very close to it, doubled over in pain with 7 miles to run, bad place to be. However, my parents, my sister and brother in law had all travelled to Germany to watch me gloriously smash sub 3, I had to keep going. I learned a lot in that race, if I had pulled out, I think I would regret it forever.

DNFing races when not being in a position to win is in serious danger of damaging the legacy of my favourite athlete, Haile Geb. I can understand the reasons, but when Rob's career is done, we would be as proud of him for his incredibly brave and gritty 4th in the Olympics as his later gold in the worlds. DNFing in a major championships race leaves a bad taste.

rom

The problem with many elite athletes is that simply qualifying iis enough. Rob is clearly his own worst critic and anything other than a win is a failure. This mindset can be negative such as here. But we live in an age where many western elites are happy with a bronze. In Kenya you don't win silver but lose gold. Sonia also had this mindset that her silver was good but not good enough. That's the way it should be at the top. However in A day where the race was 4 mins quicker than he has ever run it is never going to happen for him. The failure of this race will motivate him no end. He wants perfection and won't settle for an OK performance. I presumed he dnf just to beat himself up. It wasn't a cop out for a guy that does 200k a week.

I say a thread on facebook where his brother was commenting on. There was some guy saying that he was losing 7 0 the other night in a game and didn't give up. A BS argument. I think if people are going to judge rob then do a single day of his training and come back to me.

RedRunner

I was disappointed to hear the reason Rob Heffernan pulled out. Personally I'd rather be carried off a course than dnf but obviously different level to the elites..This is just a personal thing.

I bet Rob would have made a different call had he not got that Gold medal last year. I won't judge him though as I would have a huge amount of respect for his achievements.

rom

Unlike 99.9% of this forum Rob races to compete and not complete. He had an off day. If he got the trots like Sonia would u be happy. Some on here have little respect for our best athlete.

alaimacerc

rom wrote: »

Some on here have little respect for our best athlete.

Less and less by the day, as it happens.

What, is "elite sportsperson" supposed to be a blanket pass to "respect", now?

gerard_65

rom wrote: »

Unlike 99.9% of this forum Rob races to compete and not complete. He had an off day. If he got the trots like Sonia would u be happy. Some on here have little respect for our best athlete.

When did this happen?? I can remember that happening to Paula Radcliffe and Catherine McKiernan but not to Sonia.

RacoonQueen

gerard_65 wrote: »

When did this happen?? I can remember that happening to Paula Radcliffe and Catherine McKiernan but not to Sonia.

Sonia DNF'd a 5000m (?) race in the Olympics (1996?) because she had the trots. Jogged off the track and straight down the tunnel. I think she was last at the time.

digger2d2

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Sonia DNF'd a 5000m (?) race in the Olympics (1996?) because she had the trots. Jogged off the track and straight down the tunnel. I think she was last at the time.

Not the only thing that came straight down the tunnel that day

walshb

rom wrote: »

Unlike 99.9% of this forum Rob races to compete and not complete. He had an off day. If he got the trots like Sonia would u be happy. Some on here have little respect for our best athlete.

I have respect for him. He won a world title for himself and his country. Not everyone is allowed the gold. Maybe he just got a bit too big for his boots. Quitting the race, and making out that he only is there to win as a justification is a bit lame. You could say that about any of the athletes. If they all pulled that excuse there would only one person finishing the race.

ultrapercy

Taking what an athlete says, in the immediate aftermath of a traumatic episode, as the definite version of events is not reliable. When RH was interviewed he was still processing his own thoughts and emotions. We all know the feeling of endorphin rush we get after races (good and bad) but we dont have to make sense of our thoughts and emotions in the minutes after a race. I dont know about the rest of you but it can take me months to process and analyse a disappointing performance and what I feel immediately after a race can change by the second but maybe thats just me. Robert Heffernan is 35 and owes the sport or its fans nothing, hes travelled the hardest of roads with distinction. As the song says he "broke his heart for every gain" and deserves a little bit of slack and respect now when he is in a low place.

Hard Worker

He was still competing at pb pace when he stepped out of the race. He didn't like the situation he was in. Very poor attitude in my opinion.

walshb

Hard Worker wrote: »

He was still competing at pb pace when he stepped out of the race. He didn't like the situation he was in. Very poor attitude in my opinion.

Hard to disagree here.

wrstan

Enduro wrote: »

Context is key in sorting out which factors should even come into consideration.

He's an athlete at the very top of the pile. He is the reigning world champion. That's the key context. And its very diffirent to every other current Irish Athlete. He has years and years of race experience at the top level behind him. ...

His reasoning for pulling out sounds perfectly logical to me, given the context. Since he was mentally disengaging from the race he probably had more to loose than gain by finishing for finishing sake. Better to cut losses and move straight to the next target/goal (and ignore everyone dwelling on this race).

I think there is an important bit of context missing from your post Enduro. That is Rob was also competing as part of a team, not just a team but the National team at a major Champs, and not just as a competitor but as the Captain.

Ososlo wrote: »

So, bad attitude and bad example or understandable?

I think it is impossible to judge this, from my distance at least. I would have preferred to see him finish, but for sure I don't know what he was feeling at the time he decided to step off the track.

walshb

wrstan wrote: »

I think it is impossible to judge this, from my distance at least. I would have preferred to see him finish, but for sure I don't know what he was feeling at the time he decided to step off the track.

All we have to go on is what he himself said, unless more has come to light? In a nutshell he wasn't happy with finishing out of the medals. That for me is the right attitude, but quitting because of it is not the right attitude.

It's not like he's the GOAT at the event. He has had a lot of success, and is a world class operator, but it's not like he is entitled to medal. I have no issue with people setting high standards, but at times they do it when it's not always going to happen.

It's sort of sour grapes/bad sportsmanship for me. And I can see the other side of the argument too. He has given a lot to the sport and to the country and to the people who support him.

nerraw1111

He did add a Facebook post where he concedes that he let some people down.

"This is the first race I have ever droped out of. I am bitterly disappointed to have left myself, country and team down. I went out with one goal of winning and it fell apart. Thank you so much to people for there continued support and I genuinely appreciate it so much. I have come back from far worse scenarios in the past and I will again."

Chivito550

Hard Worker wrote: »

He was still competing at pb pace when he stepped out of the race. He didn't like the situation he was in. Very poor attitude in my opinion.

No he wasn't. Far from it. He had been going backwards for about 10k by the time he dropped out. His projected finish time was 3:41ish when he dropped out.

Some amazing nonsense being spouted on this thread.

walshb

He should have started running!

nerraw1111

Given his years of racing, is it not impressive that it was his first DNF?

pconn062

walshb wrote: »

He should have started running!

Unnecessary, no need to try and deliberately wind people up.

Krusty_Clown

pconn062 wrote: »

Unnecessary, no need to try and deliberately wind people up.

It's an interesting point though. If he'd just picked up three red cards, then none of this conversation would be happening!

Enduro

wrstan wrote: »

I think there is an important bit of context missing from your post Enduro. That is Rob was also competing as part of a team, not just a team but the National team at a major Champs, and not just as a competitor but as the Captain.

That is most definitely an additional contextual issue that should be very relevant in the decision making process. Totally agree there.

Personally though, I don't see how that would have altered his decision, given that he was already out of the medal positions, generally drifting backwards competitively, and (most relevantly I think) mentally disengaging and demotivated. I don't see what the rest of the squad would have gained from him carrying on and finishishing for finishing sake (in what would probably still have been a relatively poor performance compared to his expected performance). He may very well have taken those factors on board and come to a similar conclusion. Only he knows.

Equally I would say that in the end athletics is an individual sport mostly (Relays etc being the obvious exceptions), and whilst it is obviously a good thing that your team-mates good performances can inspire and motivate, any athlete who would let a relatively poor performance from one of their teammates negatively affect their own performance probably needs a trip to the sports psychologist! From what I've seen of the Irish squad out in Zurich they seem well enough in control of their mental approach that Rob's (or anyone elses) performance was extremely unlikely to negatively affect them. Indeed, we got a series of super performances from the squad after Rob's race.

pconn062

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It's an interesting point though. If he'd just picked up three red cards, then none of this conversation would be happening!

Who, Rob or walshb?!

walshb

pconn062 wrote: »

Unnecessary, no need to try and deliberately wind people up.

I didn't mean it like that. Point taken, pconn062.

Peterx

Was his projected 3:41 going to be a scoring place?

Assuming the team aspect is an important goal you would have to say he should stay going until is no longer a scoring athlete for the team. He was the captain.

I've been on teams with lads who were having shocking days by their own standards, much like Rob Heffernan, and yet continued on for the team and still finished ahead of me and thus helped the team. He obviously has courage and grit in abundance so dropping out showed a degree of lsck of regard/respect for his teammates -which was probably an emotional on the day reaction as he has done plenty for Irish race walking and his teammates in terms of training and support.

Hard Worker

Chivito550 wrote: »

No he wasn't. Far from it. He had been going backwards for about 10k by the time he dropped out. His projected finish time was 3:41ish when he dropped out.

Some amazing nonsense being spouted on this thread.

He was certainly competing at pb pace when he mentally threw in the towel.

Chivito550

Hard Worker wrote: »

He was certainly competing at pb pace when he mentally threw in the towel.

An irrelevant point. He was going too hard too soon, he didn't walk his own race. His pace was unsustainable as a result.

Enduro

Peterx wrote: »

Was his projected 3:41 going to be a scoring place?

Assuming the team aspect is an important goal you would have to say he should stay going until is no longer a scoring athlete for the team. He was the captain.

I've been on teams with lads who were having shocking days by their own standards, much like Rob Heffernan, and yet continued on for the team and still finished ahead of me and thus helped the team. He obviously has courage and grit in abundance so dropping out showed a degree of lsck of regard/respect for his teammates -which was probably an emotional on the day reaction as he has done plenty for Irish race walking and his teammates in terms of training and support.

AFAIK there was no team scoring in the 50km walk. I think the Marathons were the only event where team medals were available in addition to solo medals (in the same race). In which case, this was not a factor.

Chivito550

Peterx wrote: »

Was his projected 3:41 going to be a scoring place?

Assuming the team aspect is an important goal you would have to say he should stay going until is no longer a scoring athlete for the team. He was the captain.

I've been on teams with lads who were having shocking days by their own standards, much like Rob Heffernan, and yet continued on for the team and still finished ahead of me and thus helped the team. He obviously has courage and grit in abundance so dropping out showed a degree of lsck of regard/respect for his teammates -which was probably an emotional on the day reaction as he has done plenty for Irish race walking and his teammates in terms of training and support.

Whatever are you talking about. There's no team event in the walk. You are getting mixed up with the marathon.

thirstywork2

Rob has hight standards of himself hence he is the current World champion.
To compete at the Euro's and be there isn't the goal.
He wanted a medal and on the day there where 3+ guys better than him.
Why go through the motions and just walk around,save the body for another day.

Rob has had more difficult situations than this to deal with in his career and he will be back to win more medals.
People very quick to kick a man when he is down.

ThisRegard

I don't think people are kicking him in fairness. Being an elite athlete doesn't put you beyond criticism.

walshb

thirstywork2 wrote: »

Rob has hight standards of himself hence he is the current World champion.
To compete at the Euro's and be there isn't the goal.
He wanted a medal and on the day there where 3+ guys better than him.
Why go through the motions and just walk around,save the body for another day.

That is a weak argument. It's an arrogance that he hasn't earned. He won a world title, but before this it's not like he was some god. Was he even rated number 1 in Europe?

BTW, Hefferanan has been very honest about it. I respect him for this. Irish Times Sport.

"“As a race, I just feel as if I got beaten up, and it just broke me,” he said. “It broke my spirit, broke me mentally. When I realised I just wasn’t going to pull them back, it just fell apart, genuinely fell apart. Mentally, I was gone, because when first and then second were gone from me, I just didn’t want third, or fourth. I came here to win, and that just wasn’t to be.

“Now maybe that attitude is wrong, and I’ll have to think about it, afterwards, to go forward. Because that’s only making an excuse. And I don’t want to make any excuse. The motivation just wasn’t there, that’s bad, and I’m not happy about it.”