Junior Golfers Playing Rights in your Club

yawhat?

Are junior golfers in your club allowed to play in senior competitions? Can they play in the Saturday/Sunday competition? If so, are there any restrictions e.g. handicap limits, time restrictions on timesheet?

What is your view on junior members being allowed to play at weekends and potentially keeping full members off the timesheet?

Would be interested to hear people's views.

ForeRight

They can't win medals or majors in my club

mike12

Think they should be allowed to play once they reach a certain standard. Their may be a argument for them to have their own comps in clubs that have a very busy time sheet.
They should always have to play with a full member.
My club allows them once they reach a handicap of 18. Previous club allowed them to play once they recieved a handicap only prize they wern't allowed to win was first in a major comp.

rrpc

yawhat? wrote: »

Are junior golfers in your club allowed to play in senior competitions? Can they play in the Saturday/Sunday competition? If so, are there any restrictions e.g. handicap limits, time restrictions on timesheet?

What is your view on junior members being allowed to play at weekends and potentially keeping full members off the timesheet?

Would be interested to hear people's views.

I see no reason to differentiate between junior members and full members. After all the junior member of today is the full member of tomorrow. If you discourage them when they're starting out then the club will reap the inevitable reward of an ageing and dwindling membership.

Russman

There's about 10 comps in our club that they can't officially play in, Medals, Captains, Presidents etc. Actually it might be slightly less than 10, maybe 8. Six medals plus Captains and Presidents, can't think of any others off the top of my head.

I think once they get below 12 h/cap they're allowed to play in more, not sure.

But, its not really policed all that strictly though in recent years, I think it has sort of reverted to not being allowed to "win" as opposed to not allowed to tee it up.

blue note

Assuming this hasn't changed since I was a junior;

Re competitions, we allow them to enter and win all except the majors once they get an official handicap (they'd need to be playing to about 16 or 18 to get one.

And for general playing rights, they have restrictive times. In winter our official times were basically during school hours (we weren't officially allowed out on weekends) and outside of daylight ours, but once we were considerate about when we went out and called people through (even when they'd hold us up!) people didn't mind.

In summer we were a little restricted, but generally we had good playing rights.

Boskowski

Allowed to play in senior comps with 18 handicap or better but not win majors. Time sheet is not an issue with non majors usually only about 120, 130 players strong. Preferred comp times for seniors due to the nature of our Saturday evening preferred times draw usually evolving around a few pints.

Couldnt have enough juniors around tbh. Our guys seem all decent well behaved young lads and I don't even mind playing with a few of them who I know in comps as they are the sons of playing buddies. Some of them are nicer company than some of our seniors. And as someone else said they are our full members of tomorrow.

Dolph Starbeam

They can play in Tullamore, once they have a h/c of 18 or less off the senior tees. The only comp they can't win is the Captains Prize, Club Championship has been won by Junior or Student members probably 9 of the last 10 years.

dan_ep82

Once they reach a 10 HCP of the Junior Tee's they can apply for a senior HCP .

They can only win open comps, none of the club as a Junior with a full handicap although they can play in all.

Juniors with Junior HCP have tournaments just for that category.

They can't pre book a time unless its a comp, and only as a senior hcp holder. Otherwise they have to just ring on the day.

They have to give way to full members on the course, or any group with a junior in must do the same.

Same goes for practice area IIRC

Depending on the age I think they may need to be accompanied at certain times on the New Course


I've gone out a few times with Juniors and some times the "let full members through" is abused by some groups but in general its ran well enough.

GreeBo

Once they reach single figures they are allowed to play in anything, but can only access the timesheet on the Thursday before (Sat is comp day)
They cant win majors for sure, not sure about regular comps.

I dont see any issue with not giving them full members rights, they dont pay full members subs. I also disagree that its discouraging them from playing.

Dr_Colossus

In Black Bush I think juniors are allowed enter everything except for the captain's prize once they have a valid handicap of at least 18. Although they can enter and play in all the other competitions they're not eligible for any of the prizes and instead compete for a separate junior prize. I think this works well as they compete in a bigger field and from the back markers in majors and thus their handicap is more representative of their ability. Although they can't win the main prizes they can win the moral victory of being the best golfer on the day along with their separate junior prize. In addition to being able to enter the clubs normal competitions they have their own separate junior competitions also so in general quite well catered for although as always there are some players that prefer not playing with them as per the below tread from last month:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91216337

Nozebleed

A 13 year old junior won the capatins prize this year in my club..he was sitting in 3rd place after day 1 and eventually went on to win by 2 shots!! As he finished on the 36th hole a large group had gathered,everyone was talking aloud that he cant win the competition and without doubt the kid heard some of the comments. when the final resuslt was counted green side there and then you could see the panic in the faces of the committee members. They allowed him in the comp without clarifying if he could win it or not. In the end he wasnt allowed claim the prize which in my opinion is wrong. He paid the same fee as everyone else and played off a genuine handicap of 18. His age is irrelevant to be honest.

Rikand

Have two categories in our club (Athlone) :: Competitive Juniors and Non-Competitive Juniors.

The Competitive Juniors typically have a handicap of 16 or less and can be any age up to 24. They can play in any competition but can't win the first prize in the Majors. Instead they have a Junior prize that they play for. All other competitions, they are eligible to win first prize.

The Non-Competitive Juniors then have handicaps greater than 16, they dont play in any members competitions. instead they have competitions on Monday mornings in the summer and during the winter time, have 12 hole competitions on Saturday and Sunday afternoons.

All juniors can play anytime during the week anytime of the year, as long as they are mindful of the timesheet and other groups on the course. The only exception is Sunday morning when the majority of the Senior Male members go out - after 12 on Sunday, the course is theirs as long as they aren't holding things up.

GreeBo

Nozebleed wrote: »

A 13 year old junior won the capatins prize this year in my club..he was sitting in 3rd place after day 1 and eventually went on to win by 2 shots!! As he finished on the 36th hole a large group had gathered,everyone was talking aloud that he cant win the competition and without doubt the kid heard some of the comments. when the final resuslt was counted green side there and then you could see the panic in the faces of the committee members. They allowed him in the comp without clarifying if he could win it or not. In the end he wasnt allowed claim the prize which in my opinion is wrong. He paid the same fee as everyone else and played off a genuine handicap of 18. His age is irrelevant to be honest.

Its not age, its membership category.
Subtle but important difference, its the same reason a lady associate couldnt win the mens captains prize or a 5 day win the members medal.

rrpc

GreeBo wrote: »

Once they reach single figures they are allowed to play in anything, but can only access the timesheet on the Thursday before (Sat is comp day)
They cant win majors for sure, not sure about regular comps.

I dont see any issue with not giving them full members rights, they dont pay full members subs. I also disagree that its discouraging them from playing.

They don't pay full members subs for many reasons, the primary one being that if they did, there would be no junior members.

Except perhaps the wealthy.

The rest is down to individual clubs, but you have junior members in order to gain senior members in a few years. If they don't like the membership restrictions, they'll walk when they are able.

There's still a lot of stuffiness around golf. Not really surprised there's been a fall off in memberships lately.

GreeBo

rrpc wrote: »

They don't pay full members subs for many reasons, the primary one being that if they did, there would be no junior members.

Except perhaps the wealthy.

The rest is down to individual clubs, but you have junior members in order to gain senior members in a few years. If they don't like the membership restrictions, they'll walk when they are able.

There's still a lot of stuffiness around golf. Not really surprised there's been a fall off in memberships lately.

Different playing rights for different categories isnt stuffyness, its sound business practice if nothing else.
Take off peak gym or cinema membership for example.

If they dont like it so much, why are they juniors now then?
Its not discrimination, all juniors are treated the same.

Part of the reason clubs have issues is down to filling the course without ensuring they are getting value for it.
Juniors & Seniors getting full playing rights for reduced subs is not a viable option.

rrpc

GreeBo wrote: »

Different playing rights for different categories isnt stuffyness, its sound business practice if nothing else.
Take off peak gym or cinema membership for example.

But those membership categories aren't compulsory.

If they dont like it so much, why are they juniors now then?
Its not discrimination, all juniors are treated the same.

Not the same clearly from the above posts. Some clubs seem to have different rules and clearly have the ability to make or change them. As for why they are members now, well that could be related to where they live or where their family or parents are members. There's not as much freedom of movement when you're 16.

Part of the reason clubs have issues is down to filling the course without ensuring they are getting value for it.
Juniors & Seniors getting full playing rights for reduced subs is not a viable option.

Of course it's a viable option or why else are some clubs doing it?

Having a strong junior game is essential for the survival of the sport or any sport for that matter.

GreeBo

rrpc wrote: »

But those membership categories aren't compulsory.

Its compulsory to have some category of membership if you want to be a member.

rrpc wrote: »

Not the same clearly from the above posts. Some clubs seem to have different rules and clearly have the ability to make or change them. As for why they are members now, well that could be related to where they live or where their family or parents are members. There's not as much freedom of movement when you're 16.

The same in each club is what I meant.
Right, so at the point when they are able to move they are also probably no longer juniors anyway.
I think leaving the club you have been in for years just because junior members dont have the same rights as full members is toys out of the pram stuff.

rrpc wrote: »

Of course it's a viable option or why else are some clubs doing it?

"Some" clubs are running out of money. My own club recently reduced the discount that seniors and non full members were paying, now subs are directly related to playing rights.

rrpc wrote: »

Having a strong junior game is essential for the survival of the sport or any sport for that matter.

We have a string junior game. Juniors can play all day everyday during the summer for example, its hardly a great hardship that you cant win a major, you can still play. And even if not, not being able to play during competition time on a Saturday again isnt that much of an impact?

rrpc

GreeBo wrote: »

Its compulsory to have some category of membership if you want to be a member.

Yes but you aren't excluded from other categories in the examples you gave. Junior members can't join as full members because they are juniors not because they chose the junior category.

The same in each club is what I meant.
Right, so at the point when they are able to move they are also probably no longer juniors anyway.
I think leaving the club you have been in for years just because junior members dont have the same rights as full members is toys out of the pram stuff.

No, I didn't say that. I meant that if they were made to feel like second class citizens then they're not likely to have the warm fuzzies when it comes to shelling out the full sub.

"Some" clubs are running out of money. My own club recently reduced the discount that seniors and non full members were paying, now subs are directly related to playing rights.

That's fair enough. There are clearly issues there and whatever choices are made to face those issues will have their pros and cons.

We have a string junior game. Juniors can play all day everyday during the summer for example, its hardly a great hardship that you cant win a major, you can still play. And even if not, not being able to play during competition time on a Saturday again isnt that much of an impact?

I was speaking generally. I'm not 'having a go' at any particular club, just making an observation.

Dr_Colossus

rrpc wrote: »

Yes but you aren't excluded from other categories in the examples you gave. Junior members can't join as full members because they are juniors not because they chose the junior category.

I'm excluded from becoming a junior member based on my age. Similarly I'm excluded from our under 30s membership deal based on age also. I would unquestionably choose junior membership and failing that under 30s membership if I was permitted as the annual sub is so reasonable in comparison the the few additional rights being a full membership entail for the added extra fee.

I can't see any junior member ever choosing to pay for full membership if this was an option open to them (which it could well be and I don't remember reading in our club constitution whether juniors were excluded from becoming full members). Junior membership is an incentive for junior players to start and learn the game and often has it's own additional benefits such as tuition included with the heavy discounted membership fee.

rrpc

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

I'm excluded from becoming a junior member based on my age. Similarly I'm excluded from our under 30s membership deal based on age also. I would unquestionably choose junior membership and failing that under 30s membership if I was permitted as the annual sub is so reasonable in comparison the the few additional rights being a full membership entail for the added extra fee.

I can't see any junior member ever choosing to pay for full membership if this was an option open to them (which it could well be and I don't remember reading in our club constitution whether juniors were excluded from becoming full members). Junior membership is an incentive for junior players to start and learn the game and often has it's own additional benefits such as tuition included with the heavy discounted membership fee.

Juniors can't join as senior members since that would put them in a category that could put them at risk.

Unglika Norse

As a matter of interest, how many boards members were junior members of either the club they are now a full member of or another club. I was not a junior member of any club.

PARlance

Unglika Norse wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how many boards members were junior members of either the club they are now a full member of or another club. I was not a junior member of any club.

I would say that's an extremely low % but imo the main factor would be that people are less likely to live in their hometown these days.
I didn't play golf as a junior but out of a group of 10 good mates that went off to college, only 2 are living at home now.
If we were all golfers, the maximum rentention rate for the club would be 20%.

With that in mind, I can see why some clubs have possibly lost focus on the junior element and also that it's a challenge today for clubs get enthused about encouraging more young players. But it's a swings and roundabout situation, the more playing the game the more chance you'll get senior members... They just might be former juniors from a different club who have had to locate in your area.

Unglika Norse

maybe the question didn't read right, but that's what I was asking, how many boards members where junior members of any club.

There are junior comps weekly, then there's a junior captain's prize etc, and they're also allowed enter things like monthly medals but they can't win them.

Russman

Unglika Norse wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how many boards members were junior members of either the club they are now a full member of or another club. I was not a junior member of any club.

I started in my club when I was 9/10 years old and came through the ranks - juvenile, junior, student, full. Now 40 and still a member......:eek:

PARlance

Unglika Norse wrote: »

maybe the question didn't read right, but that's what I was asking, how many boards members where junior members of any club.

Sorry, question was perfect, I was getting ahead of myself

GreeBo

rrpc wrote: »

Yes but you aren't excluded from other categories in the examples you gave. Junior members can't join as full members because they are juniors not because they chose the junior category.

No, I didn't say that. I meant that if they were made to feel like second class citizens then they're not likely to have the warm fuzzies when it comes to shelling out the full sub.

That's fair enough. There are clearly issues there and whatever choices are made to face those issues will have their pros and cons.

I was speaking generally. I'm not 'having a go' at any particular club, just making an observation.

I'm excluded from becoming a female, senior, 5 day, juvenile , pavilion all for various reasons, I don't see the argument there.

Second class citizen? Seriously? I think you are stretching there tbf.

didn't take any offence, just giving an example of reality, you can't give everyone the same playing rights when paying different amounts.
Not sustainable business practice.

Dr_Colossus

rrpc wrote: »

Juniors can't join as senior members since that would put them in a category that could put them at risk.

At risk of what? What protection does being a junior member give them from said risk?

Rikand

Russman wrote: »

I started in my club when I was 9/10 years old and came through the ranks - juvenile, junior, student, full. Now 40 and still a member......:eek:

Same... except im 8 years younger

golfwallah

yawhat? wrote: »

Are junior golfers in your club allowed to play in senior competitions? Can they play in the Saturday/Sunday competition? If so, are there any restrictions e.g. handicap limits, time restrictions on timesheet?

What is your view on junior members being allowed to play at weekends and potentially keeping full members off the timesheet?

Would be interested to hear people's views.

For simplicity and to avoid misunderstanding between full and senior members (many clubs do have Senior Open Competitions), I’ll refer to Men’s Competitions (similar rules apply to the Ladies Club but both clubs are different and run their own competitions).

Juniors are allowed to play in men’s competitions once they reach a certain handicap level. There are separate junior category prizes for Saturday and Sunday member only competitions - juniors are ineligible to win any of the main men’s prizes. However, we also hold open competitions during weekdays for which eligible juniors can enter and win any prize.

The way we deal with possible timesheet conflict at weekends is by not allowing juniors to book until after midday on Friday. Additionally, there aren’t the same pressures on weekend timesheets as there were a few years ago – an unhappy consequence of the economic downturn and falling club membership. Juniors are also allowed an hour for their own competition, after the full members’ competitions close on Sundays.

con___manx1

Nozebleed wrote: »

A 13 year old junior won the capatins prize this year in my club..he was sitting in 3rd place after day 1 and eventually went on to win by 2 shots!! As he finished on the 36th hole a large group had gathered,everyone was talking aloud that he cant win the competition and without doubt the kid heard some of the comments. when the final resuslt was counted green side there and then you could see the panic in the faces of the committee members. They allowed him in the comp without clarifying if he could win it or not. In the end he wasnt allowed claim the prize which in my opinion is wrong. He paid the same fee as everyone else and played off a genuine handicap of 18. His age is irrelevant to be honest.

He must be some golfer fair play to the young lad. He wasn't able to claim the prize but he won really. I would have loved to have seen those committee members faces hahaha I hope the young lad got some sort of a prize

GreeBo

con___manx1 wrote: »

He must be some golfer fair play to the young lad. He wasn't able to claim the prize but he won really. I would have loved to have seen those committee members faces hahaha I hope the young lad got some sort of a prize

Typically you would get second place.