ANYONE MAKING MONEY AT BEEF I AM NOT

buffalobilly

Is anyone making money at the beef bought bullocks here
At 300 to 400 kgs last backend €750 to €900 would be lucky
To get away with just LOSING €200 a head now it is dam
Depressing when you go in to butchers and see what they are getting
The way I see it is from calf is born to it goes on trailer for factory
It is losing money for all involved But when from it leaves farm
To is served over the counter is is making money for all involved
What can we as farmers do to change this

The Cuban

Considering the Uk is our biggest market and the pound v euro has gained, the supermarkets and factories ave been creaming it.
Not much can be done about it. I`ve gone nearly full circle back to old times where I keep away from the feed/fertilizer merchant. Use a grass based system and keep less cattle and allow a good wedge of grass under them at all times. Sell off the grass and winter as little cattle as possible.

Muckit

Look keep the head up lad. It's only depressing if you let it. So much is out of our control.

Cuban is right. We would all love to be able to hook up the spreader or fill the meal trough, but reality is that it just doesn't pay. I shook a bit of bag l had in the shed on about 5 acres. Tis as green as a leak. Would love to be able to do the whole farm with bag/acre but you just wouldn't get a return.

I got a puncture in the tractor and nearly had a meltdown because things are so tight that the farm can hardly pay it's way to fix it. There is no contingency, no sinking fund. In an ideal world, it shouldn't be that way. It only adds to the pressure (More pressure in my head than there was in the tyre).

Farming would be easy, if you could just get on and farm.

Look l know all farmers, even dairy, have a budget to work to but beef is run on a shoe string. And the lacer is broke!

_Brian

It's so easy to become disillusioned with the state of things at the moment. Beef farming seems to be in a process of change and the way we see it were holding on to see how the ground lies afterwards.
I think the lads are right in saying the returns are hard fought to justify allot of inputs. But then it's hard to improve grassland etc with out numbers to justify it.
Lots of lads are just hanging on in the belief there will be an industry.

Reggie.

_Brian wrote: »

It's so easy to become disillusioned with the state of things at the moment. Beef farming seems to be in a process of change and the way we see it were holding on to see how the ground lies afterwards.
I think the lads are right in saying the returns are hard fought to justify allot of inputs. But then it's hard to improve grassland etc with out numbers to justify it.
Lots of lads are just hanging on in the belief there will be an industry.

More hoping there's an industry left when the dust settles

_Brian

Reggie. wrote: »

More hoping there's an industry left when the dust settles

I agree.
Hunker down and weather the storm. Micro manage finances to keep the show on the road.

caseman

Reggie. wrote: »

More hoping there's an industry left when the dust settles

I don't think the dust is going to settle in the beef industry to suit the farmer in Ireland.
Hope Im wrong but we've come through high beef prices and i didn't see any farmer getting rich.

Reggie.

caseman wrote: »

I don't think the dust is going to settle in the beef industry to suit the farmer in Ireland.
Hope Im wrong but we've come through high beef prices and i didn't see any farmer getting rich.

+1

Panch18

What do people class as making money at beef? OR how are ye measuring it?

We're doing ok at our system but it wouldnt make a fella rich

caseman

Panch18 wrote: »

What do people class as making money at beef? OR how are ye measuring it?

We're doing ok at our system but it wouldnt make a fella rich

Pay a mortgage an a house and keep a family without single farm payments.

darragh_haven

caseman wrote: »

Pay a mortgage an a house and keep a family without single farm payments.

Oh... that'd be no so.... no by a long way.

grange mac

buffalobilly wrote: »

Is anyone making money at the beef bought bullocks here
At 300 to 400 kgs last backend €750 to €900 would be lucky
To get away with just LOSING €200 a head now it is dam
Depressing when you go in to butchers and see what they are getting
The way I see it is from calf is born to it goes on trailer for factory
It is losing money for all involved But when from it leaves farm
To is served over the counter is is making money for all involved
What can we as farmers do to change this

There is always someone worse off than you...that's what I say to myself...I bought charlaois last season paid 4040 for 4!!! Now they have come on and were 350kgs, after costs I'll b lucky to break even.
Trying to avoid marts this year and putting our feelers who is selling as getting caught in bidding war with a Tangler is not worth it.

So lads looking for 25 weanlings!!

tismesoitis

caseman wrote: »

Pay a mortgage an a house and keep a family without single farm payments.

??? why do you state "without single farm payment". I would be of the opinion that the payment makes up an important part of of the income of any enterprise be it beef or dairy! The main thing when things are goin bad is to make sure the sfp is'nt eroded into!

severeoversteer

if you think 200 euro a head is a lot you would want to hear what I and a lot of people lost on bulls this year

some of the worst cases I lost 600 euro a head

that's why I have only a few stragglers left and all the rest have been replaced with young stores

the stores are thriving well for me this year and judging by the mart I was in today I should make some small money despite the year that's in it

thankfully farming isint the breadwinner in this house

The Letheram

Tis a whole doting job in beef. I am at sucklers and have no single farm payment. I have land that I bought and the sucklers, with getting about 70% of weanlings on the ship to Italy don't even make the payments on the land. It is up to my off farm income and the fw acres that I own to subsidise it heavily. I would be far better off in terms of time and financially a million miles away. Surely this can't continue across the industry?

TUBBY

Is it just me or is there an awful lot of threads lately though either asking this or concluding it.
if the feeling on here is anything to go by, we are at a very important time for beef farming Imo.

a few years ago, i would have said farmers will continue with practices regardless of lack of profit like the situation is now but there is a big change in attitude now and the factories should cop on. They still think every shed will be full this winter.

i honestly believe their shortsightedness trying to screw farmers for short term gain will backfire badly in next couple of years.

and to answer the question by op, no way in hell last two years have i made a living from farming. In fact any improvements were paid for by off farm job which isn't justifiable or sustainable.

moy83

TUBBY wrote: »

i honestly believe their shortsightedness trying to screw farmers for short term gain will backfire badly in next couple of years

Will it make much odds to the factories whether their beef comes from irish farmers or if they import it in ?
No doubt the gubberment won't see them stuck if they start failing

Sam Kade

Muckit wrote: »

Look keep the head up lad. It's only depressing if you let it. So much is out of our control.

Cuban is right. We would all love to be able to hook up the spreader or fill the meal trough, but reality is that it just doesn't pay. I shook a bit of bag l had in the shed on about 5 acres. Tis as green as a leak. Would love to be able to do the whole farm with bag/acre but you just wouldn't get a return.

I got a puncture in the tractor and nearly had a meltdown because things are so tight that the farm can hardly pay it's way to fix it. There is no contingency, no sinking fund. In an ideal world, it shouldn't be that way. It only adds to the pressure (More pressure in my head than there was in the tyre).

Farming would be easy, if you could just get on and farm.

Look l know all farmers, even dairy, have a budget to work to but beef is run on a shoe string. And the lacer is broke!

They normally come in 3's :eek: I had 2 on the tractor in June both the same day 2 days after the wrapper was punctured :mad: Luckily I've had good training repairing punctures working with a contractor in the old days. It saves a fortune as call outs are expensive and by the time I would take the wheel off and taken for repair I would have it repaired in half that time.

TITANIUM.

buffalobilly wrote: »

Is anyone making money at the beef bought bullocks here
At 300 to 400 kgs last backend €750 to €900 would be lucky
To get away with just LOSING €200 a head now it is dam
Depressing when you go in to butchers and see what they are getting
The way I see it is from calf is born to it goes on trailer for factory
It is losing money for all involved But when from it leaves farm
To is served over the counter is is making money for all involved
What can we as farmers do to change this

Tis tough alright. And it seems every time you change the system to suit the market the market has changed again. Im not castrating any bulls this winter in the vain (maybe mad) hope of getting ahead of the curve and hoping with fewer winter finishers that bull beef will come back into fashion.
Time will tell I spose.
Can't get much worse anyway.

Panch18

caseman wrote: »

Pay a mortgage an a house and keep a family without single farm payments.

How is that a measure of profitability?? A fella with 20 acres could be making 10k profit per year but it still wouldn't keep a house going

A fella with 500 acres might only make 35k but that would meet your criteria

Needs to be a per acre measurement and I'm going to throw a number of 200-250 profit per acre as to what you should be getting

blackdog1

I think all dairy farmers should export any bull calves their not selling for breeding. It would really tighten available stocks for the factories. I'm going to do this with my own this year. I figure if we take a small cut on calve prices and get them out of the country it will eventually cause a shortage in stock and give us better prices for cull cows and beef farmers in the long run.

larthehar

Lads, the reality is that it is tough at the moment. Here all I can think to do is pull in the horns, park up the spreader and go more "extensive". Tbh I think that we will be ok for the time being, the dairy boys are in for it next imo... already there is talks of a price crash and with the level of investment going on in the sector... I worry for them...
I think beef will bounce back within the next 3yrs but floods of cull dairy cows there after will hit the price of beef again.. how that is only my opinion and what do I know..

The question I.d like to put to posters here is has anyone any proposals for sustainable development in the beef sector, controls farmers can but in place to help stabilise prices?

F.D

If its true that Goodman has huge calf to beef operation on the go to control supply for his own factories, thats where the problem is, small farmers cannot compete with factory farms

so to make a living out of your land ?
do you rent it out to a bigger farmer, and just take the money with no expense every year.
Or reduce your stocking rate to the point less is more, and keep it as a hobby which in a reality for most beef farmers, it is all that it is anyway
so you might not be able to boast to the man next door that your stocked at 3 animals to the acre, and are growing 12 ton of dm to the ha or what ever keeps been pushed down our necks by the better farms, expansion 2020 etc ........ who cares
for example selling 5 animals at a profit rather than 10 animals at a loss would be better for the farmer and would tighten things up for the factories long term

larrymiller

Hopefully someday when I'm in charge, if beef doesn't improve I can see myself putting the whole place into spring/winter crop. At least it gives u a chance to work off farm

Reggie.

larrymiller wrote: »

Hopefully someday when I'm in charge, if beef doesn't improve I can see myself putting the whole place into spring/winter crop. At least it gives u a chance to work off farm

See a few farms turning that way

onyerbikepat

Do people realise just how cheap beef is at the moment? I remember us selling Friesan bullocks, circe 30 months in the late '80s to early '90s and getting £760 Irl. That's €965.
I would love to know the price of say, 18.6.12 back then.

SIX PACK

My dad brought 23 friesian Bullocks to Roscrea Factory yesterday only getting €3.40kg
8 of them we're few days over the 30 months so was docked 10cent kg 3.30kg Kill weight was 350 kg average.
He's not quality assurance farmer or IFA member so probably lost 30cent kilo because of that.
But still it's very poor return considering he went through roughly 25pallets of Beef nuts over past 2 years 200Bales of Silage approx. Not to mention all the other costs.
It's a ****ing joke the cut the Farmer gets out of this industry.

larrymiller

Reggie. wrote: »

See a few farms turning that way

Might go and borrow 200 k and milk a few cows!

Reggie.

larrymiller wrote: »

Might go and borrow 200 k and milk a few cows!

Its the only way forward I hear

I said

buffalobilly wrote: »

Is anyone making money at the beef bought bullocks here
At 300 to 400 kgs last backend €750 to €900 would be lucky
To get away with just LOSING €200 a head now it is dam
Depressing when you go in to butchers and see what they are getting
The way I see it is from calf is born to it goes on trailer for factory
It is losing money for all involved But when from it leaves farm
To is served over the counter is is making money for all involved
What can we as farmers do to change this

Lease out your land

SIX PACK

I said wrote: »

Lease out your land

That's what I told my father to do and get whoever rents it out to give him the grants.
Their is money Livestock farming if you have your head screwed on and do things right along with having the right breed of cattle you can make a tidy profit.

locha

There is very little money in the finishing business. There are 2 farmers close to me who used to finish close to 1,000 head a year (for as long as I can remember) now leasing their sheds to factories... Talking to one of them he said that he would prefer to take his chances in Vegas then do the wintering game. Interestingly he said that they way the factory are feeding the heifers if they were his he would have to be getting €5 kg to breakeven. I respect this man and he does not throw figures around loosely. It just goes to show that we really are subsidising the factories at the moment.

There was a good article in the Indo yesterday about the 30month age barrier. It's 20 years now since BSE. He went to the supermarkets to see if under 30 months was on any of the packaging - it wasent.. on one pack he saw under 36 months.

The whole under 30/36 months is a complete sham... it allows the factories to have complete control over the buying process. It should be the IFA's #1 priority to get this changed. While the price may not change the playing field may become a little clearer.

The Letheram

The Letheram wrote: »

Tis a whole doting job in beef. I am at sucklers and have no single farm payment. I have land that I bought and the sucklers, with getting about 70% of weanlings on the ship to Italy don't even make the payments on the land. It is up to my off farm income and the fw acres that I own to subsidise it heavily. I would be far better off in terms of time and financially a million miles away. Surely this can't continue across the industry?

I have to ask though - why did you buy the extra land?

If I said to my wife I'd like to take on debt for an investment and that it won't be profitable so we will have to subsidise it from our wages and that it would take more of my time she'd tell me I'm mad.

When my father finally retires (could be this winter) I hope he leases out the land.

_Brian

SIX PACK wrote: »

That's what I told my father to do and get whoever rents it out to give him the grants.
Their is money Livestock farming if you have your head screwed on and do things right along with having the right breed of cattle you can make a tidy profit.

It's along time since I've heard lads in beef considering themselves as making a "tidy profit"
Most are lucky to be making a marginal profit and then the SFP keeps them going.

LivInt20

SIX PACK wrote: »

My dad brought 23 friesian Bullocks to Roscrea Factory yesterday only getting €3.40kg
8 of them we're few days over the 30 months so was docked 10cent kg 3.30kg Kill weight was 350 kg average.
He's not quality assurance farmer or IFA member so probably lost 30cent kilo because of that.
But still it's very poor return considering he went through roughly 25pallets of Beef nuts over past 2 years 200Bales of Silage approx. Not to mention all the other costs.
It's a ****ing joke the cut the Farmer gets out of this industry.

Could you not get the farm quality assured.

There is little money in beef but you can get a few cent more for being Quality Assured.

LivInt20

F.D wrote: »

If its true that Goodman has huge calf to beef operation on the go to control supply for his own factories, thats where the problem is, small farmers cannot compete with factory farms

so to make a living out of your land ?
do you rent it out to a bigger farmer, and just take the money with no expense every year.
Or reduce your stocking rate to the point less is more, and keep it as a hobby which in a reality for most beef farmers, it is all that it is anyway
so you might not be able to boast to the man next door that your stocked at 3 animals to the acre, and are growing 12 ton of dm to the ha or what ever keeps been pushed down our necks by the better farms, expansion 2020 etc ........ who cares
for example selling 5 animals at a profit rather than 10 animals at a loss would be better for the farmer and would tighten things up for the factories long term

Is it not possible to turn around the farm and rather than selling the 10 at a loss sell the 10 at a profit.

I believe it is possible. Not going to make a fortune but certainly better selling 10 at a profit than 5.

Roundbale

Sam Kade wrote: »

They normally come in 3's :eek: I had 2 on the tractor in June both the same day 2 days after the wrapper was punctured :mad: Luckily I've had good training repairing punctures working with a contractor in the old days. It saves a fortune as call outs are expensive and by the time I would take the wheel off and taken for repair I would have it repaired in half that time.

I find that a great way of avoiding expensive puncture repairs is to change the tractor every 2 years. And like the rest of ye, not making a bob in this game. If it wasn't for the amazing craic out on the land, picking stones, attached by cows etc, I'd give it up.

Toplink

Roundbale wrote: »

I find that a great way of avoiding expensive puncture repairs is to change the tractor every 2 years. And like the rest of ye, not making a bob in this game. If it wasn't for the amazing craic out on the land, picking stones, attached by cows etc, I'd give it up.

and yet here I am sitting in an office like a captured sheep dog wishing I could farm everyday...

The grass is always greener sure.

I am all for challenges but our family need at least 3500 a month net income to survive and trying to get that off 100 acres of land in the beef game is a challenge too far.

Panch18

blackdog1 wrote: »

I think all dairy farmers should export any bull calves their not selling for breeding. It would really tighten available stocks for the factories. I'm going to do this with my own this year. I figure if we take a small cut on calve prices and get them out of the country it will eventually cause a shortage in stock and give us better prices for cull cows and beef farmers in the long run.

Am - you do realise that all those dairy bull calves are equally as important to the Beef sector as the suckler calves

Not every Beef farmer is a suckler farmer - in fact probably more aren't than are - certainly in my neck of the woods

Panch18

locha wrote: »

There is very little money in the finishing business. There are 2 farmers close to me who used to finish close to 1,000 head a year (for as long as I can remember) now leasing their sheds to factories... Talking to one of them he said that he would prefer to take his chances in Vegas then do the wintering game. Interestingly he said that they way the factory are feeding the heifers if they were his he would have to be getting €5 kg to breakeven. I respect this man and he does not throw figures around loosely. It just goes to show that we really are subsidising the factories at the moment.

There was a good article in the Indo yesterday about the 30month age barrier. It's 20 years now since BSE. He went to the supermarkets to see if under 30 months was on any of the packaging - it wasent.. on one pack he saw under 36 months.

The whole under 30/36 months is a complete sham... it allows the factories to have complete control over the buying process. It should be the IFA's #1 priority to get this changed. While the price may not change the playing field may become a little clearer.

Great post - the whole under 30 months is an absolute sham - and i agree this should be IFA's number 1 priorty and would be the best Thing it could do for Beef farming in Ireland.

Panch18

LivInt20 wrote: »

Is it not possible to turn around the farm and rather than selling the 10 at a loss sell the 10 at a profit.

I believe it is possible. Not going to make a fortune but certainly better selling 10 at a profit than 5.

not necessarily - in the Beef game less is most definately more

Less stock - less costs - more Profit

10 Bullocks making 100 Profit is the same as 5 making 200 in Profit Terms. But in reality the 5 is way better - less Money on sheds - less Money on fertiliser - less hardship on the land and to top it all of less Money tied up in stock

_Brian

Panch18 wrote: »

not necessarily - in the Beef game less is most definately more

Less stock - less costs - more Profit

10 Bullocks making 100 Profit is the same as 5 making 200 in Profit Terms. But in reality the 5 is way better - less Money on sheds - less Money on fertiliser - less hardship on the land and to top it all of less Money tied up in stock

While cutting back on numbers like this will have some effect it also essentially increases the cost burden per animal too..

Say your insurance is €1000, the cost burden per head will double if you halve your stock numbers.. Same for all (or near all) fixed costs. Economy of scale lads refer to it as.. It diminishes your ability to make improvements like reseeding etc..

onyerbikepat

Cutting back on numbers isn't the answer either. As said above your fixed costs will be the same, but over fewer animals.
Saw a UK TV programme during the week about indian curries. The scandal - 2 out of every 10 lamb curries had used 'cheaper beef' instead. Sad to see.:(

Not much better across Europe, In fairness.

moy83

Do other countries have the likes of Bord Bia promoting their beef or is it just us ?
I dont see the advantage of BB if they dont achieve a better price or bigger market share for us

Willfarman

buffalobilly wrote: »

Is anyone making money at the beef bought bullocks here
At 300 to 400 kgs last backend €750 to €900 would be lucky
To get away with just LOSING €200 a head now it is dam
Depressing when you go in to butchers and see what they are getting
The way I see it is from calf is born to it goes on trailer for factory
It is losing money for all involved But when from it leaves farm
To is served over the counter is is making money for all involved
What can we as farmers do to change this

Some years we make a few bob here at the store to beef game.. It always spent somewhere in some want or other on the farm.
Some years we maybe little more than break even. Never lost money at cattle.. Touching wood!! Single farm payment is always retained as household income no matter what.
But I think farming is always been like this. Asset rich cash poor. The returns are in the milk it so is the work and hardship lads!

And I am going to be shot someday for saying this.. It is much easier to make money in a beef trading system when beef price is low. Lower investment. More likely chance of plain cattle or exceptionLy good cattle being undervalued by competing farmers at the ring. A fluctuating market and being lucky now and then getting the odd right hop of the ball is what keeps farmers like me afloat.

Panch18

_Brian wrote: »

While cutting back on numbers like this will have some effect it also essentially increases the cost burden per animal too..

Say your insurance is €1000, the cost burden per head will double if you halve your stock numbers.. Same for all (or near all) fixed costs. Economy of scale lads refer to it as.. It diminishes your ability to make improvements like reseeding etc..

The increase in fixed costs can often be offset or more than offset by the reduction in variable costs. IMO it doesn't really matter if costs are fixed or variable - its the bottom line that matters

for example - a lower stocking rate will be less harsh on the land meaning that you will not need to reseed as often as if you are intensively stocked with animals ploughing fields in wet weather

onyerbikepat

Just dug out an old factory receipt here from 1992.:D
'R' grade bullocks were making 2.204 £ / Kg (incl Vat). That's €2.80/Kg.
That's the equivalent of €4.60/Kg today, allowing for inflation.
http://fxtop.com/en/inflation-calculator.php

SIX PACK

LivInt20 wrote: »

Could you not get the farm quality assured.

There is little money in beef but you can get a few cent more for being Quality Assured.

He only found out about that in the last week. In last 10 yrs he's only bought and sold in Mart.
Think hel just stick with dealing in mart prices in future after disastrous return he got off Ashbourne Meats.

How does the Farmer know if he's getting an honest average weight for his slaughtered Cattle ? Is their an inspector checking all the weights to make sure the farmer is not being screwed.

Reggie.

SIX PACK wrote: »

He only found out about that in the last week. In last 10 yrs he's only bought and sold in Mart.
Think hel just stick with dealing in mart prices in future after disastrous return he got off Ashbourne Meats.

How does the Farmer know if he's getting an honest average weight for his slaughtered Cattle ? Is their an inspector checking all the weights to make sure the farmer is not being screwed.

Ain't that the million dollar question

The Letheram

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to ask though - why did you buy the extra land?

If I said to my wife I'd like to take on debt for an investment and that it won't be profitable so we will have to subsidise it from our wages and that it would take more of my time she'd tell me I'm mad.

When my father finally retires (could be this winter) I hope he leases out the land.

I'd like to give a long winded and convincing answer but it came to one or two reasons. We had the price of a deposit on the ground in savings and were getting nothing on it. We were renting this ground before it came to the market and sentimentality and greed I suppose caused us to buy it.

I hope I didn't appear to be looking for sympathy as I am not. The land leaves the farm at a semi viable size going forward. We both have good off farm jobs. It may be just the system that needs to change.

Farmer Pudsey

The reality is that the factory's are playing a blinder and us stupid farmers are taking it from the behind. The kill is below 30K. Last week proved one thing the chills are fairly empty to say that on a bank holiday week they were willing to kill 29K cattle. The must need this amount for contracts.

But farmers are again throwing cattle at them for fear of a smaller price next week. They are trying to force the store price down to lure finishers back into finishing cattle this winter with cheap stores and cheap ration. All we need do is stop handing them in cattle. If the kill dropped to 25K for a week they be under pressure.

Kill is now nearly 110K over this time last year.