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Irish Rail
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Copyerselveson wrote: »leave the western half of the country as a car dependent
I think it's too late for that. Most of the west has no rail already and the few services are not competitive with road. If there was a motorway to Sligo it would benefit a lot more people and would leave the line in the 1800's.Copyerselveson wrote: »As someone from the relatively isolated north west of the country I would be appalled if that scenario you are promoting comes to pass.
Co-incidentally I'm from the NW myself and used the train a lot in my student days.Copyerselveson wrote: »Politically it would be dynamite. That level of rail closures would probably push the electorate in the west further into the arms of Sinn Fein etc. too.
Different topic (and forum) but railways or motorways or planning permission etc shouldn't be subject to political interference. However they are and you are probably right.0 -
If you want to get very particular then all motorways which are not within 50 miles of the M50 should be closed as they all carry the same levels of traffic once the major midlands towns are passed the standard numbers traveling are between 7-10k per day.
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Not quite.
N8 is showing 15005 / day in County Tipperary areas and 21669 closer to Cork City
M7 38774 - M7 Between Jn13 Kildare and Jn12
M7 14991 - Between Jn26 Nenagh (West) and Jn27 Birdhill (after split with M8)
M8 21669 - M8 Between Jn17 Watergrasshill and Jn18
Low usage are ones like the M18 : 9512
M11 10649 Between Jn23 and Jn22, Gorey,
Urban DCs are pretty hectic :
N40 Cork Ring Between Kinsale Road and Douglas Interchange: 76809 (probably beyond design capacity and would explain the long queues at peak times in Cork at the moment due to a few choke points, especially the M8-N8/M25/N40 interchange at the mount of the Jack Lynch Tunnel which is a 3-lane signalised roundabout)
M50 Between Jn6 N3/M50 and Jn5 N2/M50 122207
M50 Between Jn13 Dundrum and Jn12 Firhouse 83320
M50 Between Jn9 N7/M50 Red Cow and Jn7 N4 118353
Odd ones that aren't motorways ... N20 Cork-Limerick : 12948 (more than the M18 by a long shot)
N28 Between Cork City and Carrigaline, Carrs Hill, Co. Cork 23024
Just demonstrates to me that the big Western Motorway projects M18 etc is driven very very politically and is probably totally overkill and has starved projects in commuter towns with serious issues with traffic of funds.
That being said, there is a need for a good transport link up the west coast if you want development to happen too and WRC certainly wasn't it. M20 linking Cork and Limerick is needed and the M18 needs to be finished to Galway and upgraded M17 into the Northwest - wouldn't necessarily have to be motorway, but it needs to be made good quality the entire way.
I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of the WRC was though. It's basically just connecting a load of 19th century hubs together with extremely slow trains.
Go here for a browse : https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6
For some reason you have to google NRA Traffic Data to find it, typing the address in directly gets you an error !?
Also be careful when you are using it that you're actually looking at motorways. Some of the counters are on the older roads that the motorways replaced and you get very low readings. Until you zoom in / read the label that might not be clear as the they look almost on-line with the motorway.
Overall though, I think we need to get beyond this notion that public transport = rail. Investment in roads and high quality bus networks that are actually run properly is extremely important and more effective in a lot of areas.
There are a few key routes in Ireland that justify decent speed (up to 200km/h) rail. The other areas are probably better served by high quality bus networks to be perfectly honest.
I think some people get completely locked into a notion that we need rail everywhere. The reality is we don't. We need properly functioning, efficient, effective and low CO2 public transport. That doesn't necessarily mean laying or maintaining rails.
I'd rather have seen the WRC money having been spent on light rail in and bus networks in Cork, Limerick and Galway. That would have improved a lot more people's lives than a big long railway line that nobody uses.
A public transport network is just that - it's a public service. I think sometimes people seem to think it's some kind of system to entertain train enthusiasts. I don't mean to be disrespectful of those people, but rail isn't always the most appropriate solution, especially when you've low population densities and umpteen small hubs to interconnect.
Also, we have a pretty decent road network at this stage, and I think we need to build on the good infrastructure that we have in place already and that probably means investment in inter-town bus routes in rural areas.
The other issue that would be very useful is some kind of integrated ticketing and feeding busses for any rail that is viable.
There should be more use of things like bus+rail tickets feeding people into intercity rail connections. The problem however is most of the intercity routes (other than Cork-Dublin) have almost no advantage (sometimes are even slower) than the equivalent road routes.
Dublin-Sligo for example is pretty painful by rail in terms of speed and journey time.
Dublin-Cork (Limerick & Kerry) as well as Dublin-Belfast (& Dundalk / Drogheda) should be really improved though to make use of 200km/h.0 -
The whole place is a mess but its mainly because of bad management and government interference and politics.
For example the booking offices. Theyre being closed all over the place because they want machines collecting the fares and in order to accomplish this they are refusing to fill the vacancies from these places or upgrade them to modern standards with leap card topup machines and credit card facilities. This would be questionable at best in the countryside where services are few and far between outside of major towns but its completely stupid way of goin about expecially on the greater dublin area network where depite the increase in ticket checkers its ridiculously easy to fare evade because of the amount of holes in the system. Theres no rail cops like in England here so fare dodgers can escape pretty easily. Theres also the whole issue of safety as well as security as certain little scrotes tend to hand around these unmanned stations causing trouble.
Ticket prices while seeming expensive are still nowhere near as bad as england where prices I believe in parts are nearly twices as expensive for the same distance. Theres also been offers for online booking in advance at about €14 which isnt bad when you consider walk in prices can be €60~70 if travelling at the last minute. That being said the prices went up in the first place because of goverment interference by cutting the subsidy.
Closing lines will NOT solve the issue lets be blunt here we ended up closing them only to spend money reopening some parts that shouldnt have been closed in the first place (harcourt line as LUAS and the badly executed WRC). What needs to be done is to maintain the existing infrastructure but adjust timetabling and possibly reallign some sections in the long term. Navan rail spur shoulve been completed since it would not only end in a major town instead of the middle of nowhere but allow a possible backup linkup to drogheda too.
Privatisation does nothing it just makes things worse. England did it and it ended up costing them more. Not only that but its associated with forcing down pay to minimum wage conditions and worker exploitation. Its also extremely unlikely any private operator would operate in ireland with the existing infrasture anyways since it would be a loss making venture. Then theres the fact that even the 10% on the NTA thing for buses is causing trouble I cannot see that ending well. Only thing that really makes money are the DART network really and why would u sell that off and leave taxpayers with the unprofitable rump. Whats ultimately needed is accountability wheres the money going etc. If the place was overstocked with trains that now sit idle WHO was responsible for this? Why were so many ordered so early instead of over time etc.
As for staff costs it's not necessarily cos theyre overpaid but could be down the the amount of overtime being done cos of LACK of core staff. Least where I'm working staffing levels have been decimated theres not enough staff to keep manning places at minimum levels without pulling people in on overtime. Average depotman is about €36~38k per year before taxes and even those driving wouldnt actually have €56k per year, remember those numbers being quoted are before taxes which can usually mean theyre significantly lower by the end.
The FTP scheme is a joke but not for the old folks travelling. Most would generally agree the elderly should have free travel theyve done their time but the rest need serious evaluation. The whole schemes weakness is from the goverment end they interfered with the scheme in the past for political gain and now they dont want to pay for it so its causing losses and thats before factoring the sheer abuse factor of the scheme as well. Only way to fix this is to restrict it to the Elderly and Severely Disabled only (blindless, wheelchair uses) and the companion scheme has to go since its wide open to abuse as well. The switching to the new cards might help but not until the old letterbox passes are invalidated entirely.
The whole upcoming strike even is unneeded but its not the workers fault theyre just fed up with the politicing and BS and the strikes are a reaction to that. Remeber there was a previously agreed to pay agreement that workers gave up certain things for in return for core pay and the end result? Political interference via the goverment cutting the subsidy AGAIN. Obvious political interefernce is Obvious. Its also destroyed what little credibilty management had left and now the result is a showdown. As one driver put it "Whenever Fine Gael gets into power they cause murder in the railway" and the last time they did this in the 80's the end result was a 10 week lockdown of the place. As it stands its unfortunate people are gonna be inconvenienced by it but theres little other option at this point since the goverment is hellbent on taking money from everyone instead of seriously addressing the issues properly.0 -
I think there are definitely too many free travel passes being handed out willy nilly and they should be used to encourage people onto off-peak services!
I don't mind OAPs having free passes, it's a nice service. However, there's very little reason why they should have free passes on busy services. We should be shaping the traffic with those passes, especially on busy routes.
If they want to travel peak, they should pay as it's a very limited capacity service.
Also, speaking from what I see anecdotally, there seems to be a lot of free passes being handed out to people on various benefit schemes for no logical reason.
I was stuck beside some guy who was loudly telling me about how he'd a FTP and how he couldn't believe how I had paid for my ticket!?!
If someone genuinely needs one, fair enough - e.g. to get to/from some kind of hospital appointments or something. However, I'd question some of the logic of how they're being handed out.0 -
I'm guessing they don't look good as patronage levels are very low at all stations after Longford (except Sligo, but it's at the end of the line). Leixlip Louisa Bridge Station gets about the same level of patronage as all stations from Dromod to Sligo combined.
You aren't comparing like with like though. The stations from Dromod through to Sligo are rural stations with a few trains each way per day. Louisa Bridge is a commuter station with a very frequent service from early in the morning until sort of late at night. Obviously Leixlip will have much bigger passenger numbers than any rural station.0 -
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Copyerselveson wrote: »You aren't comparing like with like though. The stations from Dromod through to Sligo are rural stations with a few trains each way per day. Louisa Bridge is a commuter station with a very frequent service from early in the morning until sort of late at night. Obviously Leixlip will have much bigger passenger numbers than any rural station.
The comparison doesn't really matter, maybe I shouldn't have made it. The figures speak for themselves, but Dromod to Sligo inclusive average 50 people per train (900 people on 18 trains a day).0 -
I think people get a bit caught up with the romanticism of railways and the by-gone era and all that
no they don't, they realise the mistakes of the past and don't want them repeatedthe reality is Ireland has such low population density that many rail lines simply would never work.
yet they do, only about 3 don't, 2 were ran down to irrelevance, and ennis athenry shouldn't have been reopened as it could probably weaken the ennis limerick service.The low density is compounded by lax planning laws which allow around 50% of all new builds to be one-offs, i.e. completely reliant on cars to get around.
and yet, people still use the railway, brilliant isn't it, we'd all love dart amounts using the railways but its not happening, yet i don't mind my taxes going toards it, why? because its a public service.The DU, which doesn't exist, would very likely be profitable if it did exist.
thats great, but if my line goes how am i going to get to it to use it? a bus? why would i bother with the hassle? so if i can't use it by your logic, why should my taxes go toards it?I think you'd agree it'd be fairer if your taxes went on things you actually used?
in a perfect ideal world yes, but we don't live in one and never will, so i'l have to settle for them going toards public services for everyoneticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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so much of the network then? may as well shut and rip up the lot so if you want to steal these lines from the communities they serve? want our hospitals and schools also? they aren't proffitableWithout seeing the books, at a guess I'd add Longford-Sligo, Gorey-Rosslare, Roscommon-Westport (although freight might be tipping the balance here).
EDIT: Patronage levels here: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Rail-Census-2012.pdfticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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I think it's too late for that. Most of the west has no rail already and the few services are not competitive with road. If there was a motorway to Sligo it would benefit a lot more people and would leave the line in the 1800's.
but a motor way to sligo isn't justifiable, it would cost way to much and we can't afford it, as you believe i should have my taxes going toards things i use, i therefore don't want to fund it, would rather the railway as there is a chance i would use it one dayticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Overall though, I think we need to get beyond this notion that public transport = rail.
who said it was? if were talking about the current network then its fine, its the only public transport service worth talking about on these routes.Investment in roads and high quality bus networks that are actually run properly is extremely important and more effective in a lot of areas.
not where there is a current railway unless the busses feed in and out of it, if you want to replace such railways with a "high quality bus network" then for my route, no thanks, i'd rather drive if the rail line goes.There are a few key routes in Ireland that justify decent speed (up to 200km/h) rail. The other areas are probably better served by high quality bus networks to be perfectly honest.
why? why should i lose my rail line to be replaced by a "high quality bus network" that i'm just not going to use? bus networks are only fine if they bring people from places not served by rail to places that are, otherwise if your just going to replace rail with bus tell people buy a car.I think some people get completely locked into a notion that we need rail everywhere.
no they don't, they want the current network to be kept and after that certain lines like navan which should never have been closed reopened, thats about the only line reopening that should definitely happen.The reality is we don't
on the current network, yesWe need properly functioning, efficient, effective and low CO2 public transport. That doesn't necessarily mean laying or maintaining rails.
if you want low CO2 public transport then an electrified railway is the best option, or a light rail system.I'd rather have seen the WRC money having been spent on light rail in and bus networks in Cork, Limerick and Galway. That would have improved a lot more people's lives than a big long railway line that nobody uses.
or investment in the current rail network would have been even better.A public transport network is just that - it's a public service.
exactlyI think sometimes people seem to think it's some kind of system to entertain train enthusiasts.
no they don't, like me they believe that simply ripping up railways left right and centre to achieve nothing just like before is an idiotic thing to doI don't mean to be disrespectful of those people, but rail isn't always the most appropriate solution, especially when you've low population densities and umpteen small hubs to interconnect.
it is on the current network, which should be left alone.Also, we have a pretty decent road network at this stage, and I think we need to build on the good infrastructure that we have in place already and that probably means investment in inter-town bus routes in rural areas.
and the current rail networkThe other issue that would be very useful is some kind of integrated ticketing and feeding busses for any rail that is viable.
the majority of the network is, so that can be got up and running quickly with little to no cost.There should be more use of things like bus+rail tickets feeding people into intercity rail connections. The problem however is most of the intercity routes (other than Cork-Dublin) have almost no advantage (sometimes are even slower) than the equivalent road routes.
so make them faster. if people can get access to something that is faster then the motor way there is more chance they will actually use it, there will always be some who will never use public transport though.Dublin-Sligo for example is pretty painful by rail in terms of speed and journey time.
i'd still rather the journey on a train then a bus though if i had to ever go to that part of the country.Dublin-Cork (Limerick & Kerry) as well as Dublin-Belfast (& Dundalk / Drogheda) should be really improved though to make use of 200km/h.
it won't be though, it should and could have been done years ago.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »but a motor way to sligo isn't justifiable, it would cost way to much and we can't afford it, as you believe i should have my taxes going toards things i use, i therefore don't want to fund it, would rather the railway as there is a chance i would use it one day
You want a railway to Sligo but not a motorway even though the existence of a motorway is easier to justify as it would get vastly more patronage. Ok.0 -
You want a railway to Sligo but not a motorway even though the existence of a motorway is easier to justify as it would get vastly more patronage. Ok.
well you did say we should be able to choose where our taxes go, but realistically i'd rather both were invested in rather then 1 at the expence of the other.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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And why would they worsen the situation?Judgement Day wrote: »And when these closure fail/worsen the situation at Irish Rail, where then the axe...0 -
jackofalltrades wrote: »And why would they worsen the situation?
Less rail fares being collected for a start. We have a skeletal enough rail network without hacking off even more of it.
If we were serious about developing the country properly we would encourage development in the western half of the country. Shutting large chunks of the railway network is mad third world stuff and shutting the door on economic development in the west.0 -
But the fares collected make up a small fraction of the cost of running the line.Copyerselveson wrote: »Less rail fares being collected for a start.
So there would be a net saving.
Economic development in the western half of the country is hampered by one of housing and living in low population densities.If we were serious about developing the country properly we would encourage development in the western half of the country. Shutting large chunks of the railway network is mad third world stuff and shutting the door on economic development in the west.
This makes the provision of infrastructure very expensive and leads to it being second rate, making the areas less attractive to business.
This is the real problem that needs to be addressed.0 -
]SpaceTime
Agree mostly with your post but the point was every single motorway build is costing lots as they are very underused apart from around Dublin and Cork.
Many towns/villages needed bypasses so it made sense to build motorways completely however they were always going to cost the taxpayers long after they were build.0 -
The thing with the motorway build though is it prevents a lot of people ending up in the mortuary too.
There's a very strong public safety argument to building what are in reality quite narrow motorways mostly.
We went from having fairly poor road safety stats by EU standards to being statistically one of the safest place to drive in the world and that's mostly down to a massive reduction in the number of head-on collisions due to a diverting a high % of journeys onto motorways.0 -
How embarrassing for our resident libertarians then that tolled motorways continue to be a source of income for the private companies running them courtesy of the taxpayer because not enough people use them.
http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/toll-firms-paid-28m-to-compensate-for-lack-of-traffic-30506820.html0 -
How embarrassing for our resident libertarians then that tolled motorways continue to be a source of income for the private companies running them courtesy of the taxpayer because not enough people use them.
http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/toll-firms-paid-28m-to-compensate-for-lack-of-traffic-30506820.html
Well thats laughable they spend €28mil compensating private operators for less traffic than expected yet cant pay a paltry €17mil to compensate for the difference in rail.... gombeen politics at its finest.0 -
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end of the road wrote: »why would we want driverless trains, something like a train needs a human behind the controls at all times. simply, unless its a small metro system or something, its not going to happen, at least in our lifetimes
Some of these are hardly "small metro systems".0 -
Well thats laughable they spend €28mil compensating private operators for less traffic than expected yet cant pay a paltry €17mil to compensate for the difference in rail.... gombeen politics at its finest.
The logical conclusion then is that the existence of the railways is an impediment to them getting more gravy from the taxpayer. Hence the spin.0 -
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its ireland, we have "mug" written all over our name plates (well virtual name plates)How embarrassing for our resident libertarians then that tolled motorways continue to be a source of income for the private companies running them courtesy of the taxpayer because not enough people use them.
http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/toll-firms-paid-28m-to-compensate-for-lack-of-traffic-30506820.htmlticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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they are self contained lightish rail systems, the heavy rail network is a different beast, simply driverless trains on the heavy rail network isn't going to happen any time soon or at all, even if it did someone would have to be aboard incase the system failsSome of these are hardly "small metro systems".ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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But that high uptake does not come anywhere close to paying for the service from Longford to Sligo which probably costs more in maintenance than the line out to Longford from Maynooth.
how doesn't it, less trains between sligo and longford then longford and dublin, meaning longer lasting of the line from longford to sligo, either way its worth every penny as its a public service.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »they are self contained lightish rail systems, the heavy rail network is a different beast, simply driverless trains on the heavy rail network isn't going to happen any time soon or at all, even if it did someone would have to be aboard incase the system fails
I'd still argue that it saying it'll never happen "in our lifetimes" is a bit pessimistic.0 -
its not, on the heavy rail network unless its a new line which is completely self contained its not going to happen, there are to many risks on the current heavy rail network for it to be feasible, anyway driverless trains are unneeded and pointless, it works for completely self contained metro systems of low speeds. simply for the heavy rail network. not happeningI'd still argue that it saying it'll never happen "in our lifetimes" is a bit pessimistic.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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But that high uptake does not come anywhere close to paying for the service from Longford to Sligo which probably costs more in maintenance than the line out to Longford from Maynooth.
I mean that's as high as it's going to get.
I find Irish people think of our regional towns as WAY bigger than they actually are.
Sligo is only 20,000 which is putting into small town categories in an English context.
Then you've got to factor in that there's really no population density along the route.
It makes things very difficult to make infrastructure economically viable.0
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