Red Water- What is it?

exercise is the antidote

What's red water?

Farrell

exercise is the antidote wrote: »

What's red water?

Similar to black leg - near impossible to cure.
You can get pour-on to help prevent

exercise is the antidote

Farrell wrote: »

Similar to black leg - near impossible to cure.
You can get pour-on to help prevent

What's the symptoms?!

Farrell

exercise is the antidote wrote: »

What's the symptoms?!

Haven't seen in years, main thing was the urine excreted was redish tint in colour (blood).
After that I remember them staggering

gozunda

Farrell wrote: »

Haven't seen in years, main thing was the urine excreted was redish tint in colour (blood).
After that I remember them staggering

Was always a feature of wet rushy fields
Ticks natural habitat afaik.

Genghis Cant

exercise is the antidote wrote: »

What's red water?

http://animalhealthireland.ie/ckfinder/userfiles/files/20130806%20PC%20Redwater.pdf

Here ya are.

exercise is the antidote

Genghis Cant wrote: »

http://animalhealthireland.ie/ckfinder/userfiles/files/20130806%20PC%20Redwater.pdf

Here ya are.

Was just looking it up here's another link for anyone that's interested

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/profile/early-detection-the-key-to-treatment-of-redwater-241273.html

Base price

Maybe associated with wet rushy land but in the two cases that I mentioned both were on dry clay soil in North County Dublin. In fairness there is feck all wet/rushy land in that part of the country. Maybe Greysides or someone else could give more details, but from my experience of those two cases the one thing that was common to both, was that the pasture had not been grazed or mowed for several years.
Red water is treatable if caught in time. It has something to do with the breakdown of haemoglobin (red blood cells) passing in the urine.

greysides

Spread by ticks so wherever they may be. Not seen much these days due to the way land is looked after. It's a disease of old established pastures.

Prevented by pourons to keep ticks off or prophylactic use of Imizol.

larrymiller

Farrell wrote: »

Similar to black leg - near impossible to cure.
You can get pour-on to help prevent

Black leg is not spread by a tick is it??

greysides

larrymiller wrote: »

Black leg is not spread by a tick is it??

No, Blackleg is a spore picked up from the ground that seeds into muscle tissue and waits for a bruise to activate it whereupon it destroys the muscle tissue producing gas which gives it its' characteristic signature.
The toxins produced at the same time are rapidly fatal.

Base price

Good links guys. It still amazes me that there is so much information freely available on the interweb nowdays. In the situations that I described earlier you would be hard pressed to get a vet to explain/describe what was going on
Thankfully at the time, my local vet was a young man and when I called him to help the neighbours he was more than willing to inform and give advice.
I have had a couple of cases of it over the years here on my place (grandparents farm) in Longford but thankfully I noticed it in the early stages. Also my Mam, I and OH are great believers of "the cure" and in we would always contact a local lady who has the "cure of the bleed".

larrymiller

greysides wrote: »

No, Blackleg is a spore picked up from the ground that seeds into muscle tissue and waits for a bruise to activate it whereupon it destroys the muscle tissue producing gas which gives it its' characteristic signature.
The toxins produced at the same time are rapidly fatal.

A spore? As in it's just something there's always there?

Base price

larrymiller wrote: »

A spore? As in it's just something there's always there?

I thought that blackleg was caused by a bacterium as opposed to a spore. I always thought that spores were associated with fungi?

Genghis Cant

larrymiller wrote: »

A spore? As in it's just something there's always there?

It's a Clostridial disease. Caused by C. chauvoei . Associated with soil, particularly disturbed soil.

greysides

It's a spore in the sense it's a very well encapsulated bacterium that's able to live in the environment for long periods of time. Decomposed animal remains of it's victims would be source of the contamination. It enters the gut with forage and passed through to the blood which distributes it around the body. While it's usually a major leg muscle that the problems occur in it can also spark off in the diaphragm, heart, lungs tongue etc.

micraX

Base price wrote: »

Maybe associated with wet rushy land but in the two cases that I mentioned both were on dry clay soil in North County Dublin. In fairness there is feck all wet/rushy land in that part of the country. Maybe Greysides or someone else could give more details, but from my experience of those two cases the one thing that was common to both, was that the pasture had not been grazed or mowed for several years.
Red water is treatable if caught in time. It has something to do with the breakdown of haemoglobin (red blood cells) passing in the urine.

Do you mind if I ask where abouts in north country Dublin it was found? Well like everywhere else there is bad ground here too bits of Donabate and out near the Naul are like bogs.

larrymiller

greysides wrote: »

It's a spore in the sense it's a very well encapsulated bacterium that's able to live in the environment for long periods of time. Decomposed animal remains of it's victims would be source of the contamination. It enters the gut with forage and passed through to the blood which distributes it around the body. While it's usually a major leg muscle that the problems occur in it can also spark off in the diaphragm, heart, lungs tongue etc.

Ah that's very interesting,
We always inject for it here but I never really understood what it was, father said he lost one in the 90's from it and vet told him once it's in the farm you have to inject every year cause it's always there. It's cheap enough to buy

Base price

micraX wrote: »

Do you mind if I ask where abouts in north country Dublin it was found? Well like everywhere else there is bad ground here too bits of Donabate and out near the Naul are like bogs.

The bog of the Ring Commons cuts near Garristown/Ardcath crosses just North of Ashbourne, through parts of Meath and joins up with a bog in the Midlands.
I cannot remember which one but I will check it out and let you know.
To be honest I know a bit of the country around Donabate and I have never come across boggy ground.
If you read Greysides comment - he did say that it was a "disease of old pastures"
In both cases that I described earlier - both were old pasture land.

Base price

greysides wrote: »

It's a spore in the sense it's a very well encapsulated bacterium that's able to live in the environment for long periods of time. Decomposed animal remains of it's victims would be source of the contamination. It enters the gut with forage and passed through to the blood which distributes it around the body. While it's usually a major leg muscle that the problems occur in it can also spark off in the diaphragm, heart, lungs tongue etc.

If you don't mind me asking what is the difference between an encapsulated bacterium and a spore.
Is it sort of like a prion that protects itself?
As I posted above, I had a great young vet years ago who would discuss and explain things to me. Actually his predecessor (an older excellent diagnostic vet) eventually, over the years, got accustomed to me asking/probing and trying to work out what the cause/problem was and he and I would openly discuss in layman's terms what the cause/effects and treatment was.
I only have leaving cert biology but it was my favourite subject in school.

larrymiller

Base price wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking what is the difference between an encapsulated bacterium and a spore.
Is it sort of like a prion that protects itself?
As I posted above, I had a great young vet years ago who would discuss and explain things to me. Actually his predecessor (an older excellent diagnostic vet) eventually, over the years, got accustomed to me asking/probing and trying to work out what the cause/problem was and he and I would openly discuss in layman's terms what the cause/effects and treatment was.
I only have leaving cert biology but it was my favourite subject in school.

Base price and grey sides out of curiosity how are yee so knowledgable of this subject, it's not exactly simple stuff yeer on about?!

Base price

larrymiller wrote: »

Base price and grey sides out of curiosity how are yee so knowledgable of this subject, it's not exactly simple stuff yeer on about?!

Well Greysides is a vet so is qualified on the subject.
In my case the first experience of red water was when I received a present of a bwh heifer calf from my Uncle (in Longford) the day after my Dad's funeral. That was back in 1982. My Mam is from Longford but lives in North County Dublin. Anyway I brought the heifer home to NCD and bought a Sim and Ch heifer in Maynooth mart that week to match in with the bwh . My parents only had 6 acres but most of it was scutch grass and overgrown other than about a half an acre that was planted with potatoes, cabbage etc for the house.
When the calves were weaned off milk and grazing a small area that is when I first came across red water. I twigged something was wrong with one of the calves and straight away phoned the vet. He was a lovely older man who I think enjoyed the fact that this "young one" was picking his brains. He showed me how to inject lignocaine into a calf so as to numb them for debudding, how to inject into the jugular vein and lots more.
Addendum - red water would be more common in the Longford/Cavan area so over the years I have come across it many times helping neighbours with their stock.

larrymiller

Base price wrote: »

Well Greysides is a vet so is qualified on the subject.
In my case the first experience of red water was when I received a present of a bwh heifer calf from my Uncle (in Longford) the day after my Dad's funeral. That was back in 1982. My Mam is from Longford but lives in North County Dublin. Anyway I brought the heifer home to NCD and bought a Sim and Ch heifer in Maynooth mart that week to match in with the bwh . My parents only had 6 acres but most of it was scutch grass and overgrown other than about a half an acre that was planted with potatoes, cabbage etc for the house.
When the calves were weaned off milk and grazing a small area that is when I first came across red water. I twigged something was wrong with one of the calves and straight away phoned the vet. He was a lovely older man who I think enjoyed the fact that this "young one" was picking his brains. He showed me how to inject lignocaine into a calf so as to numb them for debudding, how to inject into the jugular vein and lots more.
Addendum - red water would be more common in the Longford/Cavan area so over the years I have come across it many times helping neighbours with their stock.

Ah very interesting. Also I never knew grey sides is a vet.
There is definitely a great variety of experience and advice on here.

Reggie.

Base price wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking what is the difference between an encapsulated bacterium and a spore.
Is it sort of like a prion that protects itself?
As I posted above, I had a great young vet years ago who would discuss and explain things to me. Actually his predecessor (an older excellent diagnostic vet) eventually, over the years, got accustomed to me asking/probing and trying to work out what the cause/problem was and he and I would openly discuss in layman's terms what the cause/effects and treatment was.
I only have leaving cert biology but it was my favourite subject in school.

The vet here does that for me aswell....maybe I'm too nosey

greysides

BP, if you want a lot of technical detail I'll have to refer you to Mr Google as it's a while since I studied this stuff. I would imagine there's a scale of magnitude difference to start with, similar to the size difference between bacteria and viruses. The fern spore will likely be a solid structure, a smaller version of the seeds you normally see. The bacterial spore will be a normal cell with a cell wall but outside that an extra layer, maybe with a large fat content, designed to protect from UV light, dessication, extreme pH levels. For some bacteria, Anthrax would be another example, this is how they normally survive from one host to another.
In Cavan, 20+ years there was a lot of Redwater, all year round, even Christmas day.

Reggie.

greysides wrote: »

BP, if you want a lot of technical detail I'll have to refer you to Mr Google as it's a while since I studied this stuff. I would imagine there's a scale of magnitude difference to start with, similar to the size difference between bacteria and viruses. The fern spore will likely be a solid structure, a smaller version of the seeds you normally see. The bacterial spore will be a normal cell with a cell wall but outside that an extra layer, maybe with a large fat content, designed to protect from UV light, dessication, extreme pH levels. For some bacteria, Anthrax would be another example, this is how they normally survive from one host to another.
In Cavan, 20+ years there was a lot of Redwater, all year round, even Christmas day.

Hardy little ****s

micraX

Base price wrote: »

The bog of the Ring Commons cuts near Garristown/Ardcath crosses just North of Ashbourne, through parts of Meath and joins up with a bog in the Midlands.
I cannot remember which one but I will check it out and let you know.
To be honest I know a bit of the country around Donabate and I have never come across boggy ground.
If you read Greysides comment - he did say that it was a "disease of old pastures"
In both cases that I described earlier - both were old pasture land.

Yeah thoought it was out that way alright. Well it wetlands along the cost in donabate, mostly greatland, but some really wet fields.

trixi2011

June and July are the worst times of year for red water in this part of the country. Affects cattle brought into an area more so than cattle born in the area as they seem to build up an immunity. If cattle are very weak blood transfusions may be the only thing to save them.

whelan2

we used to be told here if you vaccinate for blackleg you wont have redwater.... we have never had redwater here

Farrell

larrymiller wrote: »

Black leg is not spread by a tick is it??

True.
What I meant was we generally lost the animal if they got either.
That's why we inject black-leg every year, & pour-on on new / overgrown ground just to be careful.
Great info on here, why the boards are are great place to be

greysides

whelan2 wrote: »

we used to be told here if you vaccinate for blackleg you wont have redwater.... we have never had redwater here

I wonder if the reference was to Bacterial Redwater/Bacillary haemoglobinuria?

whelan2

greysides wrote: »

I wonder if the reference was to Bacterial Redwater/Bacillary haemoglobinuria?

well the lad who used to say it is dead about 30 years , so i cant ask him:P

Reggie.

whelan2 wrote: »

well the lad who used to say it is dead about 30 years , so i cant ask him:P

Convenient

greysides

Blackleg and Bacterial Redwater are both clostridial diseases so a vaccine to one 'might' partially protect against the other.

Reggie.

greysides wrote: »

Blackleg and Bacterial Redwater are both clostridial diseases so a vaccine to one 'might' partially protect against the other.

Good to know that.

greysides

'might'!
Wouldn't trust it.

I said

Had red water a few times but since I started using bayticol to control it.Ive had no problems with it since also found bought in older stock are the most prone to it

Reggie.

greysides wrote: »

'might'!
Wouldn't trust it.

Noted

greysides

Bacterial Redwater and the tick-spread Babesiosis, 'redwater', are two very different diseases.

Miname

were very prone to blackleg around me. Nearly every year we would loose at least one and thats after vaccination as well. Touch wood nothing this year. its usually a good calf too, ive yet to see a screw of a yooke get blackleg.
ive heard before that nitrogen helps kill red water, whether thats true or false i dont know.

Reggie.

Miname wrote: »

were very prone to blackleg around me. Nearly every year we would loose at least one and thats after vaccination as well. Touch wood nothing this year. its usually a good calf too, ive yet to see a screw of a yooke get blackleg.
ive heard before that nitrogen helps kill red water, whether thats true or false i dont know.

Strange that you would still get it after the animals being vaccinated

Miname

Reggie. wrote: »

Strange that you would still get it after the animals being vaccinated

They would get the double shot too. first then booster.

Reggie.

Miname wrote: »

They would get the double shot too. first then booster.

I only give the one jab

greysides

Miname, what vaccine are you using?

Miname

greysides wrote: »

Miname, what vaccine are you using?

tribovax t

greysides

Miname wrote: »

tribovax t

There's a school of thought that goes that the greater the variety of antigenic components in the vaccine the better. Cross-protection of one to another.

For example, Covexin 10 has a greater variety content than Tribovax T. The 'Sordelli' component would be a useful extra to start with.

Kovu

Redwater is rife here, but also blackleg too

whelan2

.Kovu. wrote: »

Redwater is rife here, but also blackleg too

asked my dad there, he said we used to have a good bit of redwater here but when we started using the blackleg vaccine it stopped, it must be the form of redwater greysides was talking about

Kovu

New thread


.Kovu.

RobertKK

Imizol was the cure for redwater or a blood mourne (spelling not sure of for the mourne bit), thankfully years since the last case of it.

Had one very sick animal in the past, a heifer who couldn't get up, gave her guinness, molasses, glucose and glycerine.
She became fond of the Guinness and eventually got her strength back and recovered.
Her mother who had also got redwater a year or two before that, received a blood transfer and died.

Roundbale

Have had a few losses over the years due to this. Very dry land so not just where rushes are. Generally in old pastures with a butt of grass that the tick survives in.
One of the key signs is the skin gets tight as a drum from blood loss and dehydration. You don't always see them pass urine.