The Dublin Gaelic Football team: A Contrarian’s view

Dots1982

Something I blogged earlier: https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/

The Dublin Gaelic Football team: A Contrarian’s view

The title of this blog may suggest that my premise is to be one based on the contention that a contrarian’s view of Dublin would involve describing how Dublin are overrated and hyped up by a fawning media. In fact the contrarian view with regards to Dublin as I see it is that they are underrated and are primed to sweep the honours offered in all competitions they will face in the foreseeable future. I also plan to talk about what this could mean for the GAA’s future at a national level over the next 10 years. Spoiler Alert: I believe it could change the GAA monumentally.

Some may question why I see it as Contrarian to suggest that Dublin will become the All dominant force within Gaelic Football. I see it as clear as day that within a few years there is no team in the country to compete at their level. However most GAA fans do not agree. The reasons they contend are numerous so I will try to distill them down to the most popular three and then give less prominent reasons an airing further down.

1- Dublin have won 2 All Irelands in 18 years. In the same period Kerry have won 6 and Tyrone have won 3. Dublin are joint third with Meath and Galway. There is nothing to suggest dominance by any county in those statistics.

2- All dominance in GAA is only for a finite amount of time. No county or club keeps winning forever except maybe Crossmaglen in Armagh.

3- Dublin have shown other counties the way. It is now their responsibiliity to strive to get their act together and reach the same level.

In the interest of completeness here’s a brief rundown of the other reasons GAA people believe Dublin will not threaten the status quo.

1- Dublin face too much competition from other sports for GAA to ever quite take a stranglehold of young sportspeople’s hearts & minds.

2- Dublin is full of people and areas who have no GAA background. They may have a population coming towards 1.5 millions but how many have involvement in GAA.

OK, I plan to talk about and hopefully debunk some or all of the above points. Dublin winning 2 Sams in eighteen years is a useful stat for those on the Anti-Dubs domination bandwagon but it fails to tell the whole story. First of all as any bank advert will tell you past performance does not guarantee future returns. Going back 10 or 15 years to tell you about today’s game is a futile task I would argue. For Gaelic Football the sport only modernised with the introduction of Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal who decided they weren’t going to be browbeaten into playing the game the way Pat Spillane & co said it should be played. For me at least anything beyond the very recent history of the game is irrevelant.



Rant alert: Please remember all of you when discussing the modern game that Meath haven’t made an unbelievable comeback in about 11 years, that teams no longer win the All ireland in their fourth game of the year and finally that a player’s indiscipline is a drawback not a virtue of a current intercounty player. Rant over.



So I have some stats I would like to bring to the party in regards to Dublin:

The Dubs have won 2 of the last three All-Irelands. While not a stat it is also significant that they are currently 5/4 with PaddyPower to win 4 in 5 i.e. this year and next year.

With regard to Leinster titles they have won 8 in 9. The latest of which was a no contest in any of their three matches.

They have won seven of the last eleven Leinster club titles. They have won the last two and given the monster that is the Dublin SFC it is not inconceivable to think this dominance like that of the county team will continue.

Their underage teams are almost as dominant as their seniors. Dublin have won four of the past six Leinster minor titles. They won the national minor in 2012. Their Under 21 teams (probably the most indicative age level of where future Sams will go) are on a great run of three All-Irelands in five years.

Dublin are dominant, they get to finals and they win finals at provincial and All-Ireland level. They have always being one of the dominant counties but it’s in a completely different planet to previous periods of domination,

Moving on, I have already to a extent made my counterpoint to the argument that every county’s GAA dynasty only lasts a finite cycle. I’m not used to writing in an organised way again since college and some of my points may overlap. Intercounty GAA is in a quasi-professional era with sports science being employed to a huge degree where previously it had not even being heard of. As I have also pointed out Dublin in the last three years are winning most competitions they are entering in at all age levels from minor up. Saying this Dublin or any team is in a finite cycle of success is merely a cliche or a perceived wisdom unless there is any arguments to back it up. Given Dublin’s dominance I fail to see the argument against it continuing.

The final point I made about the arguments put forward against Dublin dominance was one that Dubs and non-Dubs share; Dublin are an example to the rest of the country in how to organise county teams at senior, underage and development level and it is up to the rest of the country to follow suit. This point tends to annoy me a great deal and the lack of appreciation of economics or even logic that it provokes. Dublin are a county of 1.2 million as of the last census, there would be more living there than that now. They had a huge deal with Vodafone worth nearly a million a year starting in 2009 and now they are in the first year of a four year deal with AIG worth 3.9 million over 4 years. So sponsorship-wise they are on another level to every other county. What Dublin are paid in sponsorship would be comparable to the annual total turnover of some of the other county sponsors. We hear a lot of talk about the funding Dublin has received from central council. Let’s take a closer look. I have looked over the GAA’s accounts for 2012. You can do if you wish at GAA 2012 accounts

So let’s crunch the numbers in the accounts. Dublin’s revenue from the GAA’s operating Payments to Clubs, Counties and Provinces in 2012 was €2,029,093. The total of these payments made to all counties was 10,789,770. So Dublin have received almost one-fifth of the GAA’s outlay to go alongside their near €1,000,000 a year sponsorship deal.

Let’s look at the figures more closely. Most of the €2,029,093 Dublin got was for Games Development. €1,588,001 the exact figure. Let’s compare that to what whole provinces got for Games Development in 2012. Ulster got €1,216,815. Connacht got €770,071. Munster got €1,126,414 and rest of Leinster outside of Dublin got a paltry €115,469. I had to double check that figure it was so laughably small compared to Dublin.

So let’s talk about what those figures mean. To put it simply Games Development grants are not meant to help Bernard Brogan or Colm Cooper to improve. What they are for is to try and find the next Bernard Brogan or the next Colm Cooper. Investment gets results and if the investment in Dublin far overreaches the investment in entire provinces who do you think will be the county with the best chance to produce the next Cooper or Brogan? Can other counties possibly hope to catch up with a County that is sponsored, invested and populated by a much greater amount of money & people?

The GAA needs a strong Dublin goes the old GAA chestnut and it’s true but at what cost? The cost appears to be a competitive All-Ireland championship if current trends continue. Leinster is no longer competitive. Is the rest of Ireland next?

Dublinfan

Dots1982 wrote: »

Something I blogged earlier: https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/

The Dublin Gaelic Football team: A Contrarian’s view

The title of this blog may suggest that my premise is to be one based on the contention that a contrarian’s view of Dublin would involve describing how Dublin are overrated and hyped up by a fawning media. In fact the contrarian view with regards to Dublin as I see it is that they are underrated and are primed to sweep the honours offered in all competitions they will face in the foreseeable future. I also plan to talk about what this could mean for the GAA’s future at a national level over the next 10 years. Spoiler Alert: I believe it could change the GAA monumentally.

Some may question why I see it as Contrarian to suggest that Dublin will become the All dominant force within Gaelic Football. I see it as clear as day that within a few years there is no team in the country to compete at their level. However most GAA fans do not agree. The reasons they contend are numerous so I will try to distill them down to the most popular three and then give less prominent reasons an airing further down.

1- Dublin have won 2 All Irelands in 18 years. In the same period Kerry have won 6 and Tyrone have won 3. Dublin are joint third with Meath and Galway. There is nothing to suggest dominance by any county in those statistics.

2- All dominance in GAA is only for a finite amount of time. No county or club keeps winning forever except maybe Crossmaglen in Armagh.

3- Dublin have shown other counties the way. It is now their responsibiliity to strive to get their act together and reach the same level.

In the interest of completeness here’s a brief rundown of the other reasons GAA people believe Dublin will not threaten the status quo.

1- Dublin face too much competition from other sports for GAA to ever quite take a stranglehold of young sportspeople’s hearts & minds.

2- Dublin is full of people and areas who have no GAA background. They may have a population coming towards 1.5 millions but how many have involvement in GAA.

OK, I plan to talk about and hopefully debunk some or all of the above points. Dublin winning 2 Sams in eighteen years is a useful stat for those on the Anti-Dubs domination bandwagon but it fails to tell the whole story. First of all as any bank advert will tell you past performance does not guarantee future returns. Going back 10 or 15 years to tell you about today’s game is a futile task I would argue. For Gaelic Football the sport only modernised with the introduction of Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal who decided they weren’t going to be browbeaten into playing the game the way Pat Spillane & co said it should be played. For me at least anything beyond the very recent history of the game is irrevelant.



Rant alert: Please remember all of you when discussing the modern game that Meath haven’t made an unbelievable comeback in about 11 years, that teams no longer win the All ireland in their fourth game of the year and finally that a player’s indiscipline is a drawback not a virtue of a current intercounty player. Rant over.



So I have some stats I would like to bring to the party in regards to Dublin:

The Dubs have won 2 of the last three All-Irelands. While not a stat it is also significant that they are currently 5/4 with PaddyPower to win 4 in 5 i.e. this year and next year.

With regard to Leinster titles they have won 8 in 9. The latest of which was a no contest in any of their three matches.

They have won seven of the last eleven Leinster club titles. They have won the last two and given the monster that is the Dublin SFC it is not inconceivable to think this dominance like that of the county team will continue.

Their underage teams are almost as dominant as their seniors. Dublin have won four of the past six Leinster minor titles. They won the national minor in 2012. Their Under 21 teams (probably the most indicative age level of where future Sams will go) are on a great run of three All-Irelands in five years.

Dublin are dominant, they get to finals and they win finals at provincial and All-Ireland level. They have always being one of the dominant counties but it’s in a completely different planet to previous periods of domination,

Moving on, I have already to a extent made my counterpoint to the argument that every county’s GAA dynasty only lasts a finite cycle. I’m not used to writing in an organised way again since college and some of my points may overlap. Intercounty GAA is in a quasi-professional era with sports science being employed to a huge degree where previously it had not even being heard of. As I have also pointed out Dublin in the last three years are winning most competitions they are entering in at all age levels from minor up. Saying this Dublin or any team is in a finite cycle of success is merely a cliche or a perceived wisdom unless there is any arguments to back it up. Given Dublin’s dominance I fail to see the argument against it continuing.

The final point I made about the arguments put forward against Dublin dominance was one that Dubs and non-Dubs share; Dublin are an example to the rest of the country in how to organise county teams at senior, underage and development level and it is up to the rest of the country to follow suit. This point tends to annoy me a great deal and the lack of appreciation of economics or even logic that it provokes. Dublin are a county of 1.2 million as of the last census, there would be more living there than that now. They had a huge deal with Vodafone worth nearly a million a year starting in 2009 and now they are in the first year of a four year deal with AIG worth 3.9 million over 4 years. So sponsorship-wise they are on another level to every other county. What Dublin are paid in sponsorship would be comparable to the annual total turnover of some of the other county sponsors. We hear a lot of talk about the funding Dublin has received from central council. Let’s take a closer look. I have looked over the GAA’s accounts for 2012. You can do if you wish at GAA 2012 accounts

So let’s crunch the numbers in the accounts. Dublin’s revenue from the GAA’s operating Payments to Clubs, Counties and Provinces in 2012 was €2,029,093. The total of these payments made to all counties was 10,789,770. So Dublin have received almost one-fifth of the GAA’s outlay to go alongside their near €1,000,000 a year sponsorship deal.

Let’s look at the figures more closely. Most of the €2,029,093 Dublin got was for Games Development. €1,588,001 the exact figure. Let’s compare that to what whole provinces got for Games Development in 2012. Ulster got €1,216,815. Connacht got €770,071. Munster got €1,126,414 and rest of Leinster outside of Dublin got a paltry €115,469. I had to double check that figure it was so laughably small compared to Dublin.

So let’s talk about what those figures mean. To put it simply Games Development grants are not meant to help Bernard Brogan or Colm Cooper to improve. What they are for is to try and find the next Bernard Brogan or the next Colm Cooper. Investment gets results and if the investment in Dublin far overreaches the investment in entire provinces who do you think will be the county with the best chance to produce the next Cooper or Brogan? Can other counties possibly hope to catch up with a County that is sponsored, invested and populated by a much greater amount of money & people?

The GAA needs a strong Dublin goes the old GAA chestnut and it’s true but at what cost? The cost appears to be a competitive All-Ireland championship if current trends continue. Leinster is no longer competitive. Is the rest of Ireland next?

hmm does anyone get that strong smell of bitterness....

Dots1982

Dublinfan wrote: »

hmm does anyone get that strong smell of bitterness....

Bitterness is an emotion. Emotions are not known for their smell.

bohsboy

Makes it all the sweeter.

It's ok until the Dubs get a bit of momentum going. Now it's a question of scrapping the lot.

Predictable.

CrabRevolution

Those Games development figures look shocking. Is there some way they are made up for e.g. the money is paid to Leinster GAA and then to the counties? I find it hard to believe that the other 11 counties in Leinster see that and give it their approval.

There must be a representative from Kildare or Laois looking at €1.5 million going to Dublin, then looking at every other Leinster county getting about €10'000 each, then looking back to the Dublin figure and in their best Fr. Ted referee impression saying "Wait a second...."

Dots1982

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Those Games development figures look shocking. Is there some way they are made up for e.g. the money is paid to Leinster GAA and then to the counties? I find it hard to believe that the other 11 counties in Leinster see that and give it their approval.

There must be a representative from Kildare or Laois looking at €1.5 million going to Dublin, then looking at every other Leinster county getting about €10'000 each, then looking back to the Dublin figure and in their best Fr. Ted referee impression saying "Wait a second...."

They are shocking. I'm trying to speak to GAA journos on twitter and ask why this hasn't been discussed more.

As I say in the blog , the scary thing is that most of the results of this investment will not be seen for another couple of years. So Dublin should really get a lot better in the next 10 years rather than come back to the pack.

Grudaire

With the exception of the grant you could easily substitute 'Kerry' in for Dublin, or Kilkenny in if you mention football.

Also let's not be disingenuous, the AIG sponsorship deal covers all codes (and unlike Kilkenny money and effort is going into the hurlers).

The far more interesting debate is to how to stop 3 provinces being totally uncompetitive. Dublin, Kerry, and Mayo are a league above the rest, and surprise surprise these are the teams still around come September nearly every year.

The_Honeybadger

The games development figure for the rest of Leinster does look curios, have you managed to find a reason for this?

You could well be right about Dublin entering a period of dominance, they seem to be getting better while the rest of the traditional football counties like Kerry, Tyrone, Cork etc are at their weakest in terms of playing personnel for some time. It will be a while before any of the above win an AI title again. Mayo or possibly Donegal are their only real threat at the moment but they also look a bit short. Everything is stacked in Dublins favour for the forseeable future. Fair play to them for maximising the resources made available to them, the amounts do look unbalanced but they seem to have used it well in fairness!

Dots1982

mickeyk wrote: »

The games development figure for the rest of Leinster does look curios, have you managed to find a reason for this?

You could well be right about Dublin entering a period of dominance, they seem to be getting better while the rest of the traditional football counties like Kerry, Tyrone, Cork etc are at their weakest in terms of playing personnel for some time. It will be a while before any of the above win an AI title again. Mayo or possibly Donegal are their only real threat at the moment but they also look a bit short. Everything is stacked in Dublins favour for the forseeable future. Fair play to them for maximising the resources made available to them, the amounts do look unbalanced but they seem to have used it well in fairness!

Think leinster counties outside Dublin must get funded by the leinster council not central council. You can't run a county's games development on 10k a year!!

Still looks like Dublin got more in development funds than whole provinces looking at the numbers.

nice_guy80

bohsboy wrote: »

Makes it all the sweeter.

It's ok until the Dubs get a bit of momentum going. Now it's a question of scrapping the lot.

Predictable.

So you like winning Leinster championships with nobody to compete with you?
At senior, U21 and minor
Kinda gets boring after a while

ProudDUB

nice_guy80 wrote: »

So you like winning Leinster championships with nobody to compete with you?
At senior, U21 and minor
Kinda gets boring after a while

Why don't you ask Kilkenny people the very same question? Trust me, winning NEVER gets boring.

EICVD

ProudDUB wrote: »

Why don't you ask Kilkenny people the very same question? Trust me, winning NEVER gets boring.

But seeing the county nobody likes constantly winning does

ProudDUB

EICVD wrote: »

But seeing the county nobody likes constantly winning does

Ah here. That noted sage Joe Brolly said on RTE yesterday, that we are a national treasure that the whole country should admire and be proud of. Mind you, he may have had a few on board when he said it. :P

LeinsterDub

nice_guy80 wrote: »

So you like winning Leinster championships with nobody to compete with you?
At senior, U21 and minor
Kinda gets boring after a while

Kilkenny fans seem to be able to struggle on

TouchingVirus

EICVD wrote: »

But seeing the county nobody likes constantly winning does

Nobody likes any constant winner, Dublin or otherwise.

freddiek

i don't think the public would mind except there is a perception that Dublin are being propped up by the GAA.

the massive AIG deals, the ads on TV featuring the Dublin players, the stories about the Dublin players not having jobs (i.e. full-time at the sport), the guaranteed home advantage, Hill 16 etc. make people a little weary of Dublin's success.

the hurlers are only relatively successful now that expertise has been drafted in from other counties (Daly, Stakelum) not to mention the huge resources spent on coaching. resources that other counties can only dream of.

so when Dublin people complain of begrudgery they also need to recognise that they enjoy a charmed life really.

the situation in Leinster is really concerning. you could see the Dubs winning the next 10 Leinsters.



having said that the team are a joy to watch and is full of very dedicated young men.

bohsboy

nice_guy80 wrote: »

So you like winning Leinster championships with nobody to compete with you?
At senior, U21 and minor
Kinda gets boring after a while

I remember not so long ago going without a Leinster for a number of years. Our success won't last forever so I'm presently enjoying every minute of hammering old rivals out of sight.

ProudDUB

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Nobody likes any constant winner, Dublin or otherwise.

Three All Irelands in 30 years could hardly be classed as constantly winning.

nice_guy80

ProudDUB wrote: »

Three All Irelands in 30 years could hardly be classed as constantly winning.

Leinster titles? at adult and underage?

ProudDUB

Sorry, was referring to winning in general, not just Leinster.

ultrapercy

Jim Gavin is a classy man managing a classy squad that play acttractive football in a classy and respective manner but the system is wrong. The faulty system is no fault of Jim Gavin or his squad, in fact it is them that suffer the most because of it.

Syferus

bohsboy wrote: »

I remember not so long ago going without a Leinster for a number of years. Our success won't last forever so I'm presently enjoying every minute of hammering old rivals out of sight.

At this stage that was very long ago.

RoyalCelt

ProudDUB wrote: »

Why don't you ask Kilkenny people the very same question? Trust me, winning NEVER gets boring.

it clearly does judging by the drop off in kilkenny's hurling support. they had very few in croker today compared to limerick. same is happening with the dubs. the bandwagon has lost interest. gone are the days of 2002 - 2009 when a quarter final featuring the dubs was an instant sell out.

Armagh, Donegal, Monaghan had around 40k between them in croker at the weekend. Possibly more. That leaves around 32k dubs for an AI quarter final. If Dublin dominate as expect the numbers will drop a lot as Dublin "fans" would rather watch on the TV than spend 30 quid.

There's no denying that there is not nearly as much excitement about the dublin team now compared to 4 years ago and on. I thought you winning the AI in 2011 would bring back the bandwagon but it doesn't seem to be. Hill 16 wasn't even sold out on the day of the match. I think that tells you something.

Dominance is bad in any sport and the 1 team SPL is a great example of this.

Stoner

RoyalCelt wrote: »

it clearly does judging by the drop off in kilkenny's hurling support. they had very few in croker today compared to limerick. same is happening with the dubs. the bandwagon has lost interest. gone are the days of 2002 - 2009 when a quarter final featuring the dubs was an instant sell out.

Armagh, Donegal, Monaghan had around 40k between them in croker at the weekend. Possibly more. That leaves around 32k dubs for an AI quarter final. If Dublin dominate as expect the numbers will drop a lot as Dublin "fans" would rather watch on the TV than spend 30 quid.

There's no denying that there is not nearly as much excitement about the dublin team now compared to 4 years ago and on. I thought you winning the AI in 2011 would bring back the bandwagon but it doesn't seem to be. Hill 16 wasn't even sold out on the day of the match. I think that tells you something.

Dominance is bad in any sport and the 1 team SPL is a great example of this.

Every county has these "fans" RoyalCelt your own included. We could examine Meaths performances outside of the recent game against Dublin, the fact is that it's been falling for years, go back ten years and it has fallen relatively speaking.

Armagh , Cork , Kerry, Cavan , Donegal, Monaghan, Mayo are all ahead of Meath now. Even with Meaths "fans" . My point is having a pop at Dublin fans is unfair every county has such an element . There's no point blaming Dublin for Meaths poor ranking. Without Dublin, Meath and Kikdare would have more Leinster titles, but no more AIs Dublin had Leinster wrapped up long before they won the AI we were generally laughed at.
But Meath have relatively fallen off a long way imho overtaken by counties surviving in similar circumstances. That's not the fault of Dublin or its fans. Winning attracts fans. As does competition. This is a very good Dublin team alongside a very poor Meath team.

Dublin won two finals by one point.

In 2010 many including myself thought Cork had the next two or three years to themselves.

Things change, a real debate would be how would this team do against a 2007 Tyrone or Kerry. Many would argue that both of those sides were better than this Dublin side. Because there is a drop off at the moment, Donegal are not as sharp as they were in 2011, Kerry are rebuilding and Mayo who last year beat Donegal the Champs by 16 points (similar to Dublins score versus Meath ) are not looking as sharp this year but are a serious team with a real half back line.

Mayo could have beaten Dublin last year if they were smarter on the line, Dublin had three knackered players either being unnecessary marked or not able to play, the Mayo management seemed to miss this, had they acted on it in time they might very well have won. Boylan would have spotted that in his day.

There are not many sides playing attractive football now, again this brought success and started well before Dublin picked up the two recent wins. In fact Meath are identified by many as the original negative football team, I don't really agree with that but you know many people hold that opinion.

I've seen plenty of bandwagon Dublin fans and plenty of Meath ones too.
Being honest I always liked Meath teams and style, but the fact remains if Dublin don't beat this Meath team there are at least half a dozen teams that would, 10 years ago that was not the case. If Meath football was in a better relative position I doubt you'd care about Dublins "fans" and if Meath were playing in three weeks time you'd be there surrounded by thousands and thousands of Meath "fans"

Dots1982

Stoner wrote: »

Every county has these "fans" RoyalCelt your own included. We could examine Meaths performances outside of the recent game against Dublin, the fact is that it's been falling for years, go back ten years and it has fallen relatively speaking.

Armagh , Cork , Kerry, Cavan , Donegal, Monaghan, Mayo are all ahead of Meath now. Even with Meaths "fans" . My point is having a pop at Dublin fans is unfair every county has such an element . There's no point blaming Dublin for Meaths poor ranking. Without Dublin, Meath and Kikdare would have more Leinster titles, but no more AIs Dublin had Leinster wrapped up long before they won the AI we were generally laughed at.
But Meath have relatively fallen off a long way imho overtaken by counties surviving in similar circumstances. That's not the fault of Dublin or its fans. Winning attracts fans. As does competition. This is a very good Dublin team alongside a very poor Meath team.

Dublin won two finals by one point.

In 2010 many including myself thought Cork had the next two or three years to themselves.

Things change, a real debate would be how would this team do against a 2007 Tyrone or Kerry. Many would argue that both of those sides were better than this Dublin side. Because there is a drop off at the moment, Donegal are not as sharp as they were in 2011, Kerry are rebuilding and Mayo who last year beat Donegal the Champs by 16 points (similar to Dublins score versus Meath ) are not looking as sharp this year but are a serious team with a real half back line.

Mayo could have beaten Dublin last year if they were smarter on the line, Dublin had three knackered players either being unnecessary marked or not able to play, the Mayo management seemed to miss this, had they acted on it in time they might very well have won. Boylan would have spotted that in his day.

There are not many sides playing attractive football now, again this brought success and started well before Dublin picked up the two recent wins. In fact Meath are identified by many as the original negative football team, I don't really agree with that but you know many people hold that opinion.

I've seen plenty of bandwagon Dublin fans and plenty of Meath ones too.
Being honest I always liked Meath teams and style, but the fact remains if Dublin don't beat this Meath team there are at least half a dozen teams that would, 10 years ago that was not the case. If Meath football was in a better relative position I doubt you'd care about Dublins "fans" and if Meath were playing in three weeks time you'd be there surrounded by thousands and thousands of Meath "fans"

You've completely missed the point. The post was not meant to rundown Dublin fans but to say when one team is dominant to a huge extent fans lose interest. It's not a potshot at Dublin fans.

TouchingVirus

Dots1982 wrote: »

to say when one team is dominant to a huge extent fans lose interest.

As a Dub, I concur. A much closely contested championship, while not good for the heart, is good for the sport. Walking it to the semi-finals is never a good sign, I found it hard to get excited at another thrashing last Saturday.

Past30Now

Dots1982 wrote: »

1- Dublin have won 2 All Irelands in 18 years. In the same period Kerry have won 6 and Tyrone have won 3. Dublin are joint third with Meath and Galway. There is nothing to suggest dominance by any county in those statistics.

OK, I plan to talk about and hopefully debunk some or all of the above points. Dublin winning 2 Sams in eighteen years is a useful stat for those on the Anti-Dubs domination bandwagon but it fails to tell the whole story. First of all as any bank advert will tell you past performance does not guarantee future returns. Going back 10 or 15 years to tell you about today’s game is a futile task I would argue. For Gaelic Football the sport only modernised with the introduction of Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal who decided they weren’t going to be browbeaten into playing the game the way Pat Spillane & co said it should be played. For me at least anything beyond the very recent history of the game is irrevelant.



So let’s crunch the numbers in the accounts. Dublin’s revenue from the GAA’s operating Payments to Clubs, Counties and Provinces in 2012 was €2,029,093. The total of these payments made to all counties was 10,789,770. So Dublin have received almost one-fifth of the GAA’s outlay to go alongside their near €1,000,000 a year sponsorship deal.

Let’s look at the figures more closely. Most of the €2,029,093 Dublin got was for Games Development. €1,588,001 the exact figure. Let’s compare that to what whole provinces got for Games Development in 2012. Ulster got €1,216,815. Connacht got €770,071. Munster got €1,126,414 and rest of Leinster outside of Dublin got a paltry €115,469. I had to double check that figure it was so laughably small compared to Dublin.

So let’s talk about what those figures mean. To put it simply Games Development grants are not meant to help Bernard Brogan or Colm Cooper to improve. What they are for is to try and find the next Bernard Brogan or the next Colm Cooper. Investment gets results and if the investment in Dublin far overreaches the investment in entire provinces who do you think will be the county with the best chance to produce the next Cooper or Brogan? Can other counties possibly hope to catch up with a County that is sponsored, invested and populated by a much greater amount of money & people?

I don't want to get into an anti dub vs dub conversation, but I've a couple of points to make. Your complete disregard for history undermines your entire argument. The reason we study history is to learn from it, and when similar circumstances arise in the future students of history already have an idea of how things will pan out, due to history repeating itself.

You argue that 3 AI's in 18 years should be ignored. My Dad was born in 1950 and has attended most championship matches since he was about 6. Since then Dublin won 1 AI in the 50's, 1 in the 60's, 3 in the 70's, 1 in the 80's, 1 in the 90's, none in the noughties, and two in the last three years. That's an average of 1 every 7 years. Given that Dublin amount to 20% plus of the population, we should be winning 1 every 4/5 years.

Your argument regarding games development funding is very interesting and needs further examination. I won't pretend to understand the whole of GAA and it's funding, but I have an understanding of what happens in my own club. My club didn't exist in 1995 when Dublin last won the AI before the current crop. We have a games promotion officer who is partially funded by the GAA. He does a great job for the club, and visits the local schools, encouraging kids to join the club. He's very involved in our nursery, and also assists training some of the underage girls teams. A portion of his time is also spent training mentors/parents. (I'm probably understating his duties, but suffice it to say he does a great job for the club).

My point is that his role is primarily involved in growing the club and the GAA in our community. You make the point that the purpose of the funding is to find the next Gooch or Bernard Brogan. I'd argue differently. The next Gooch or Bernard Brogan would likely find his way to a club eventually. It's the kid who'll be the centre back on our second team at under 13 - 16 who this guy attracts. Twenty years ago this guy would not have played GAA. He might have joined a soccer club for a year or two, but ultimately wouldn't have been involved in much sport. The money used to fund our GPO is the best type of money spent by the GAA. It gets kids involved. The participation of kids in our games is crucial to the well being of the kids and our games, and should be broadly distributed on a per head of population basis.

Your figures indicate that Dublin is significantly overfunded in comparison to the other counties in Leinster. Your figures indicate more strongly that the counties of Munster, Connacht and Ulster are significantly overfunded in comparison to the other Leinster counties. I'd guess that your figures don't tell the whole story and I'd suggest in order to complete your research you'd need to examine the accounts for each county board and each provincial council.

My main point is that Dublin Football is going very well at the moment, and long may it continue. It may be that this group of players win 8 All Irelands over a 12 year period, but that has happened before, and it wasn't the end of the world. So far they've won two finals by a combined gap of two points. It's far too early to be asserting that the competitiveness of the AI will be destroyed by Dublin dominance. My suggestion would be that people making this argument should hold on a few years and see what happens.

Stoner

Dots1982 wrote: »

You've completely missed the point. The post was not meant to rundown Dublin fans but to say when one team is dominant to a huge extent fans lose interest. It's not a potshot at Dublin fans.

no I didn't, I was commenting on RoyalCelts comments about Dublin "fans" not your point, I quoted him not you.

I did touch on your point though wrt negative football and the current level of competation and relatively,
football has been on a downward slope imho, I made comments in 2011 here about how no kid would chose GAA over other sports having looked at the Dublin Donegal game (equal blame).
Negative football has won more AIs and less fans over the past twenty years then in the history of the GAA imho.

I don't think you picked up on that in your post,for some reason it is a considerable variable that was somewhat left out.

Dots1982

Stoner wrote: »

no I didn't, I was commenting on RoyalCelts comments about Dublin "fans" not your point, I quoted him not you.

I did touch on your point though wrt negative football and the current level of competation and relatively,
football has been on a downward slope imho, I made comments in 2011 here about how no kid would chose GAA over other sports having looked at the Dublin Donegal game (equal blame).
Negative football has won more AIs and less fans over the past twenty years then in the history of the GAA imho.

I don't think you picked up on that in your post,for some reason it is a considerable variable that was somewhat left out.

We'll agree to disagree. But the meathman's argument as I see it was any set of fans have a bandwagon element who are extremely fickle. Dublin have more fans than any other county so naturally have a bigger bandwagon. They have loads of really dedicated supporters as well.

As for negative football turning away viewers. I wouldn't really agree. It provoked massive debate, ulster teams are well supported so they packed out croker.

I actually quite liked Ulster football at the time they were winning. It was interesting to watch. These days though however I much rather watch the super football Dublin and Mayo play.

Hammer Archer

Stoner, I really do think you completely missed Royal Celt's point. Not once did he blame Dublin for Meath's poor ranking. He didn't even mention Meath in his post.
You say winning attracts fans. But tell me, do you really expect masses of Dublin fans to spend over €100 each to attend games where they're pretty much guaranteed to win by double figures? I wouldn't and that's not a slight on Dublin fans. Yes you want to see your team win, but you also want to be entertained at the same time. While the football Dublin are playing is fantastic, the games have been dull as dishwater due to the uncompetitive nature of them (like TouchingVirus said).
Dublin are only going to get better and I can see a massive fall off in their attendances next year, at least until the All Ireland semi final (which they are guaranteed to reach even at this early stage).

Dots1982

Hammer Archer wrote: »

But tell me, do you really expect masses of Dublin fans to spend over €100 each QUOTE]

I agree with you on your point but where the hell are you buying tickets from?

Moneymaker

I think it's a valid argument. I've not missed a Championship game since 2001 and only missed a handful of league games, and i've found it a chore to go to games so far this year. Dominance gets boring, despite how enjoyable the team is to watch when they're in full flow.

Hopefully that will change when Donegal come calling and we get a tight, competitive game.

AGC

freddiek wrote: »

i don't think the public would mind except there is a perception that Dublin are being propped up by the GAA.

the massive AIG deals, the ads on TV featuring the Dublin players, the stories about the Dublin players not having jobs (i.e. full-time at the sport), the guaranteed home advantage, Hill 16 etc. make people a little weary of Dublin's success.

In fairness to any of the Dublin lads I know (Non students) they work, and full time jobs. They will have a bit of give and take im sure but they deserve that? There is always going to be players who get a cushy number because of who they are, this is in every county in the country and especially for the 'marque' player.

Companies, banks etc... want these lads on their books, I don't have any issue with that as you have said the commitment all inter counties players show are almost full time jobs so surely has to be some perks?[/QUOTE]

K-9

TouchingVirus wrote: »

As a Dub, I concur. A much closely contested championship, while not good for the heart, is good for the sport. Walking it to the semi-finals is never a good sign, I found it hard to get excited at another thrashing last Saturday.

It's getting worrying for Leinster at the minute, and that has to be concerning for everyone.

Stoner wrote: »

no I didn't, I was commenting on RoyalCelts comments about Dublin "fans" not your point, I quoted him not you.

I did touch on your point though wrt negative football and the current level of competation and relatively,
football has been on a downward slope imho, I made comments in 2011 here about how no kid would chose GAA over other sports having looked at the Dublin Donegal game (equal blame).
Negative football has won more AIs and less fans over the past twenty years then in the history of the GAA imho.

I don't think you picked up on that in your post,for some reason it is a considerable variable that was somewhat left out.

Success breeds success, I don't think the style matters as much as being competitive and winning things. Think it's the first time in years and years that the 4 Provincial senior winners also did the minor double. Monaghan won their first Ulster minor in years last year, probably a lot to do with the good team from 05-08 as well as the effort put in at grass roots level.

Stoner

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Stoner, I really do think you completely missed Royal Celt's point. Not once did he blame Dublin for Meath's poor ranking. He didn't even mention Meath in his post.
You say winning attracts fans. But tell me, do you really expect masses of Dublin fans to spend over €100 each to attend games where they're pretty much guaranteed to win by double figures? I wouldn't and that's not a slight on Dublin fans. Yes you want to see your team win, but you also want to be entertained at the same time. While the football Dublin are playing is fantastic, the games have been dull as dishwater due to the uncompetitive nature of them (like TouchingVirus said).
Dublin are only going to get better and I can see a massive fall off in their attendances next year, at least until the All Ireland semi final (which they are guaranteed to reach even at this early stage).

to be honest when I see "fans" it usually means not fans.

I reminded people that every county has not fans or "fans"

so I had a pop back.

Also there has been a trend in GAA when a team is fkying that the fans only go when it gets interesting. Kerry and Cork fans joke about it, as do Kilkenny in the hurling. So if it has happened to superior team in Ireland in the past it will happen to Dublin too I'd imagine.

However the fall off in terms off attendance can't be taken in isolation when looking for a cause, there is a marked drop in standards at the moment and I think that some people need to look inwards before talking about a uniform behaviour of fans that has been observed in other counties over time.

I went to the Mayo game last week because I like watching them play. I said as much here.

Did the op ask similar questions about Kilkenny?
I don't think so. Dublin is in the ops questions, so the uniform behaviour of fans in Ireland is levelled at one set of fans, but i accept the question I was replying to one particular poster not the OP.
I don't want to have a pop at Meath fans that would be ridiculousky hypocritical, and has no grounds with me anyway.

Hammer Archer

Dots1982 wrote: »

I agree with you on your point but where the hell are you buying tickets from?

I meant for all Dublin games so far. To go to every Dublin championship game so far this year would have cost you in and around €100 just for tickets (if it wasn't in the Hill). For a family, this figure would be a lot more. Of you're winning each game by an average of 15 points, you're not going to pay that much when you can watch it on TV.

Any key?

A lot of games development money goes towards the link with schools where a development officer goes out and teaches hurling and football to kids trying to seek out stars of the future and recruit to clubs.

There are way more schools in Dublin.They have hired more development officers.That means they use more money.

However from talking to some games development coaches some less populated counties might only have two coaches for the whole county linking in with schools which seems crazy.

ProudDUB

I don't think that you can point at the number of supporters in Croke Park and use that as an automatic barometer of how well supported a county is. There are some counties that have a long history of success. Kilkenny and Kerry are probably the most obvious. Supporters from those counties know that their lads will get a run or two out in Croker a couple of times every year. A year that they don't is considered an off year, such is the expectation levels in those counties. Fans of those counties may then pick and choose what games to go to as there will generally be another day out at Croker, if they miss the first one.

Then there are other counties that don't win so much, or make it to Croker all that often. So when they do, their supporters will move heaven and earth to get there, as they don't know when their next day out there will be. So there may be more bums on seats on match day from those counties, than from the so called aristocrats.

Does that mean that their is a drop off in support or interest in those more successful counties? Does that mean their players and mgt team are not under the same amount of pressure to win as ever before? Do Kerry or Kilkenny supporters crave success or want success, any less than supporters from Clare or Donegal or Limerick do? I don't believe that for a second.

Dots1982

Debate is kind of going completely off the point by talking about supporters .

Frankie Lee

In the hypothetical event of the GAA creating a Fingal county board their team would still be an All Ireland candidate: (If Vincents players were included, I'm not sure if they are, Ballymun Kickhams players I'm not sure about)

---

Shane Supple

Kevin O'Brien

---

Sean Murray

---

Paddy Andrews

Eric Lowndes

---

Ger Brennan

---

Darren Daly

---

Eamonn Fennell---Stephen Cunningham

Paul Flynn

---

Ciaran Kilkenny

---

Shane Carthy

Philip Ryan

---

Diarmuid Connolly

---

Mossy Quinn

The rest of Dublin team would still be favourites for the All Ireland, the likes of Kilmacud Crokes would be a match for most county teams.

Peist2007

ProudDUB wrote: »

Why don't you ask Kilkenny people the very same question? Trust me, winning NEVER gets boring.

Why does Kilkenny keep getting mentioned? They are a small county population-wise that had a phenomenal group of players. Are you saying that is the same as the Dubs?

Peist2007

ProudDUB wrote: »

Three All Irelands in 30 years could hardly be classed as constantly winning.

Thats a red herring. The debate is about Dublin now with their current advantages and how it may mean a lack of competition in the future

ProudDUB

Peist2007 wrote: »

Why does Kilkenny keep getting mentioned? They are a small county population-wise that had a phenomenal group of players. Are you saying that is the same as the Dubs?

The question was whether or not one county winning consistently was boring, both for the supporters of that county and other counties. I brought up Kilkenny as no other county has good a recent winning record as they do. I wasn't making any other kind of comparison to them, population or otherwise.

davegrohl48

One thing that has happened which has given Dublin an advantage and it is not their fault. The game has evolved to rely heavily on athleticism.
Dublin have the biggest pick of naturally better athletes who also play Gaelic Football at a decent level underage.
Advanced training programs help but you can't just go out and physically develop a Paul Flynn or Michael Darragh Mccauley.
You can't add height in a gym. 6'+, well built with stamina and speed is rare enough in Irelands population. Even rarer then when looking for persons of that build who have played Gaelic Football to a decent standard underage.
The current Dublin team most of the players have been around since 2012 and before. Dublin have changed tactically to make it more of an athletic battle in the middle third.
Pretty much the same core team has improved tactically and fitness wise since 2012. Other counties don't have the depth of natural athletes in their county to submit to a development program.
Only maybe Mayo come closest. But you would still say they don't quite match up. Yes Dublin have competing sports but in terms of eligible skilled athletes Dublin have the largest pick.

Dots1982

I would ask one thing of Dubs fans. Can you for the love of Glenda Gilsen's eyebrows please stop going on about the "wilderness" years? 7 years without a Leinster title. You do realise you share a province with counties waiting 70 years plus for a title.

DoctaDee

Have a look around the other capital cities of Europe and the incumbency on them to compete at the top level in team sport. Soccer, basketball, handball, volleyball etc - coupled with the expectancy to compete is the expectancy to be successful. So to compare relative successes in Leinster is a trite argument

Dots1982

DoctaDee wrote: »

Have a look around the other capital cities of Europe and the incumbency on them to compete at the top level in team sport. Soccer, basketball, handball, volleyball etc - coupled with the expectancy to compete is the expectancy to be successful. So to compare relative successes in Leinster is a trite argument

So what you are saying is that Dublin should be all conquering in Leinster or they aren't doing their job. That's not great for the rest of Leinster or the GAA as a whole. If counties don't have any expectation to compete why would they bother trying?

DoctaDee

Dots1982 wrote: »

So what you are saying is that Dublin should be all conquering in Leinster or they aren't doing their job. That's not great for the rest of Leinster or the GAA as a whole. If counties don't have any expectation to compete why would they bother trying?

Why limit your argument to Gaelic Football ? this inequality exists on a far broader spectrum - the nature of sport is to compete and win, others sports can be supplemented with players imported from all over the globe - I'm happy to say I'm proud of our homegrown players.

LeinsterDub

Frankie Lee wrote: »

In the hypothetical event of the GAA creating a Fingal county board their team would still be an All Ireland candidate: (If Vincents players were included, I'm not sure if they are, Ballymun Kickhams players I'm not sure about)

---

Shane Supple

Kevin O'Brien

---

Sean Murray

---

Paddy Andrews

Eric Lowndes

---

Ger Brennan

---

Darren Daly

---

Eamonn Fennell---Stephen Cunningham

Paul Flynn

---

Ciaran Kilkenny

---

Shane Carthy

Philip Ryan

---

Diarmuid Connolly

---

Mossy Quinn

The rest of Dublin team would still be favourites for the All Ireland, the likes of Kilmacud Crokes would be a match for most county teams.

Nither Vincents or Ballymun are Fingal they are DCC. Ballymuns pitch is in Fingal but the catchment isn't

davegrohl48

DoctaDee wrote: »

Why limit your argument to Gaelic Football ? this inequality exists on a far broader spectrum - the nature of sport is to compete and win, others sports can be supplemented with players imported from all over the globe - I'm happy to say I'm proud of our homegrown players.

A sport like soccer has a higher reliance on skill and less players involved. So a smaller population with some star players can compete more effectively. In smaller sided sports your best players contribute a higher proportion of overall team performance. Moving to 13 a side n reverting to 4/5 subs will help the overall championship become more competitive in each province. Mayo wouldn't dominate Connaught so much. Tipperary would get a big boost looking at their underage success. Its overall been an awful championship.

Stoner

Dots1982 wrote: »

I would ask one thing of Dubs fans. Can you for the love of Glenda Gilsen's eyebrows please stop going on about the "wilderness" years? 7 years without a Leinster title. You do realise you share a province with counties waiting 70 years plus for a title.

Well that says it all really. I thought you were concerned about the thread going off topic. ????

Anyway once again that is not the fault of Dublin GAA, its a bigger issue imho. If Dublin didn't beat say Carlow then Wexford , laois, westmeath, Meath or kikdare would. The issue does need to be addressed but not just for second tier counties to make it more competitive while still ignoring weaker counties. I've found that to be the case when splitting Dublin comes up, it's from Donegal or Meath or Kildare all to improve their chances but not addressing the greater question. It's not always the case but it has been. McGuinness and McHugh will bring it up again if Dublin beat Donegal, but if Donegal win they won't.
Kerry people rarely talk about splitting Dublin up.

The fact remains that there is a push to stop Dublin putting a run together that would break records.
I actually don't think it will happen I think teams will figure a way around it.