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N5 - Westport to Turlough [open to traffic]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Islandeady seems strange alright - almost as if it's there to direct people who may have missed the sign at the Pheasant hill roundabout. Hard to argue that it should have precedence over directing traffic to Leeane, Louisburgh though. Think we all agree they should be included.

    Strictly speaking Westport itself is probably correctly labeled. The addition of "Westport North" might be confusing people as to which way to go but in theory it should be a help in splitting traffic to different parts of the town and reducing the previous issues with tailbacks at Knockranny. Castlebar could do with similar signage - for example if you are driving from Westport you are directed into town on the R309 at the first roundabout regardless of what part of Castlebar you are bound for. Signs saying Castlebar West, South etc might be better, especially for busy times of the day.

    Changing the Westport label to 'Westport Town centre' and adding the N59 desinations might be the solution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 415 ✭✭pjordan


    Irish road signposting has long been a bug bear of mine and it is signage like this that bear it out, which displays a complete lack of foresight or, more significantly, local consultation/insight.

    As it happens I came into Westport on Monday from the Newport side and the tails backs right out to the hill at the tennis courts leads me to believe that a lot of the tourist traffic that would usually have backed up on the Sheeaune is now being diverted onto the Newport road, in a large part due to this misleading or confusing signage. It would seem logical (but logic rarely seem to come into TII's reakonings) that the roundabout on Sheeaune would feature Westport town centre and the N59 onward to Leenaune (and the R335 to Louisburgh) as their primary emphasis. Very much smacks of someone at a desk just following procedure and guidelines with very little, or no reference to local, on the ground, knowledge or insight.

    It reminds me of a few of signposting clangers I encountered in the past including:

    The N5 signage in the middle of Longford pointing both ways but no East or West clarifications.

    The confusing signage around Cork city from years ago where when it was pointed out that it was confusing the official response was "it'll be ok when drivers get used to it" which kinda defies the purpose of signposts, especially for tourists that need to be clear first time. Bit like Westernview's point above, surely signposting is meant primarily for those not familar with a location to assist them on a once off or infrequent basis, not for those that know layouts and have therefore litte if any need of signposting?

    And the cryptic colour coded junction signage introduced at great expense in Dublin about 20 years ago under the Seamus Brennan Transport ministership which gradually slipped away back into obscurity and eventually removed to avoid further embarrassment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Theres just 2 primary roads in the area - the N5 and N59 - and they omit signage for the N59 south but signpost a Regional road. Seems illogical but is this because of some rule that you can't mention the N59 south because you have to go through regional roads to get to it (if taking a left at the first roundabout)? Someone mentioned something like this before in relation to Ballina not being signposted on the new N5 because its separated from the N5 by the N26. If this is the case the rules aren't always very practical and may need to be looked at.




  • Posts: 0 Iker Pitiful Tray


    Piece in this weeks Connaught Telegraph about the upcoming closure. No reason given as to why there is a closure, just "maintenance works".




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,312 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    That sign looks correct to me. Going straight on keeps you on the N5 which brings you to the N59, going left brings you onto the R309. Having "town centre" under Westport on the left turn would have been helpful.

    You could possibly argue that the N59 south of Westport should be accessed by going through the town along the old N5 route but it would be odd to signpost a N road via an R road when that same N road can be accessed via a brand new R road. In this case, it doesn't really make much difference as you go through the town either way.

    It probably would have been better for the N5 to end at the roundabout and for the Westport bypass to be N59 (this would have to happen if the Westport southern bypass ever gets built). As it is, the sign is directing all N59 traffic onto th bypass and presumably is then directed north/south when you reach the N59.

    I presume the issue is that locals are so used to going south via the old route that they can't understand the other routing but from an irregular visitor pov, going N road to N road does make sense over going N road > R road > N road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,655 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Which way is Google maps sending everyone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    "Town centre" would ease the problem alright I think. Westport will always be a bit of a bottleneck until the southern ring is eventually developed but the Newport road seems less able to cope with extra traffic than the R309 approach by Knockranny. At least the traffic can split at the castlecourt, and after the lights you can go straight across the bridge unimpeded on to Bridge street, instead of getting stuck along the Mall when coming in the Newport road side.

    If the southern ring road was built I would think that might become the new N59 and the road through the town would revert to regional route. That would mean renaming the part at the end of the N5 to N59 as you mentioned.

    Its sending traffic from the N5 to the N59 south via the R309. So that's probably a good thing. A lot of tourists would be using google maps I would think so it maybe it is more a local issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    This came up on the thread about how "CORK" was signed on the N40 Dunkettle scheme too, and I think it shows a flaw in our signage system: there's no easy way to indicate the way to the centre of a place that works for tourists as well as natives.

    The current practice is to use "An Lár [NAME]" for cities, and "[Ainm] TOWN CENTRE" for towns. There's problems with both: first, for cities, you don't know it's the centre unless you know Irish; in the other, you know it's the town centre, but not which town unless the town's Anglicised name is similar enough to its Irish one - for a tourist, the way we do town-centre directions results in the place-name disappearing from the signs just as a visitor is looking out for it.

    Italy solves the same problem by using a "bullseye" symbol for the route that brings you to the centre of a place. In this pic,"Rome" is on both signs (as "ROMA est" and "ROMA nord"), but the bullseye symbol next to the name on the right-hand sign tells you that "ROMA nord" is destination that will bring you to the city centre (although as a tourist, you really shouldn't try to drive in Rome!):




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,642 ✭✭✭plodder


    Another aspect of that which we don't use here (properly or much) is using a different background colour when grouping related information, particularly when using symbols like the bulls-eye and Roma in that one, or the airport symbol. The view below shows the approach to the M17/M18 with a sign for Shannon airport. At least the name of the airport is shown, but it is conceivable that a visitor heading to Ireland West Airport could see the airport symbol and not associate it with Shannon on that sign.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    I think the French do it well on signposts like this.

    They have two separate signposts, spaced a couple of hundred metres apart. The first one gives regional directions, so in this case, 'Newport, Leenaune, Louisburgh', the second one further on gives local directions, such as town centre, train station, or a suburb, local village (Islandeady). Especially important in areas with heavy tourist traffic.

    I agree with KrisW1001 above that the 'bullseye' symbol is excellent. Signs should be understandable no matter what language you speak.

    Also the signs around Westport need signage for Croagh Patrick and Achill, two of the biggest tourist destinations in the area.

    EDIT: This is an example of French signage, first sign for major routes, second for local.

    I can't seem to post a link, so here's a screenshot.


    Post edited by KevRossi on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    Drove this yesterday in heavy rain. The drainage doesn't appear to be great, lots of standing water and spray compared to say the M4 or M6 in similar weather.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    I drove it over the weekend and had a similar experience. Even where the cross-gradients seem adequate the water appears to be clinging to the surface in some way. Strange.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    The offending Westport North destination on the roundabout sign has been painted over. Perhaps a temporary measure until updated signage is installed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Didn't hear that. Well id hope that it's temporary because otherwise its just transferring the whole problem back to knockranny again. Having Westport north is a good thing to separate the traffic provided the TOWN CENTRE route through knockranny is signposted also. Otherwise it's back to the old chaos just to placate local councillors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,312 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I'm sure somebody feels they fought the system and won, that's all that matters here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,739 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Drove this road both directions at the weekend for the first time, and what a fantastic road it is. It was dry when I was on it so I didn't get to see how it behaves (or not) in the rain.

    The road feels like you could go a lot faster than the 100km/h limit, but, given Garda activity on the road yesterday, it wouldn't be advisable. However, with the part from the Western Castlebar roundabout to the Eastern Westport roundabout being only 10km, the drive is almost over before you know it.

    What was more impressive for me is the ring road north of Westport. They made a super job of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    It's a fine piece of infrastructure surely and a pleasure to drive. Very easy to go over 100km/hr without realising it such is the smoothness of the surface.

    The ring road is well done alright but could do with a barrier separating pedestrians/cyclists from the road as it also has a 100km/hr limit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    The benchmark for insanely smooth roads is the M6 from Galway to Ballinasloe. How does the new N5 compare to that one?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,309 ✭✭✭✭wotzgoingon


    I drove that road many times and never noticed the smoothness. Next time I'm on it I will have to take a better look.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,655 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Is that the same stretch that as soon as it rains or hailstones a bunch of cars ending up crashing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,574 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    I did likewise. I was heading for Croagh Patrick. I was disappointed to see that the new roads don't alleviate traffic through Westport town. It's an horrendous bottleneck. I thought the town was going to be bypassed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,574 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Hadn't really looked at plans. Just assumed that bottleneck of town would have been improved. New road will obviously take away a bit of the traffic but an awful lot still going through it to get to Leenane etc...

    It's a nice looking town but has horrendous traffic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    A bypass is badly needed to the south but it was never part of this project. The route design hasnt been done yet and no sign of it on the horizon. Even the northern bypasse was a late add on after the Turlough end was shortened and money redirected.

    Westport is a lovely town but isn't quite what it could be for tourists and locals while a national primary route cuts through the middle of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,655 ✭✭✭irishgeo




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Thanks didn't realise that.

    Either way it's too much traffic going through the town.



  • Posts: 0 Iker Pitiful Tray


    I'm wondering since the new road doesn't alleviate the Summer traffic problems in Westport town, does most of the Newport/Mulranny/Achill bound traffic still head out the R311 road out of Castlebar? The Southern bypass option of Westport (needed IMO) is mentioned in this Mayo County Council document from 2019. On page 32.

    https://www.nwra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2019045.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,696 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Incorrect its the m18 from gort to crusheen that was built near a fairy ring



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,696 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Thanks for the evidence filled reply. Kepeing with the theme





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    I'd say some people heading to Newport and further have changed over to the new road but not that many. Even though its a more comfortable drive it's over 10km longer and 2 minutes extra. Anyone unfamiliar with the area and relying on sat navs will still be directed on to the R311.

    The new northern bypass is of more relevance for people living that side of town and surrounding areas. And of course redirected Abbvie (f. Allergan) traffic which should be helping to reduce issues on the old approach to town.

    The bypass is briefly mentioned in that document you linked and is badly needed both for reducing congestion and facilitating expansion of the town. But after the investment in the N5 it may have to wait a while. Ballina, Foxford and Ballinrobe bypasses,may be seen as higher up the list and in fairness money should be spread around. Ballina certainly appears to getting more attention now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,853 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I'm sure there was an official reason with data to back it up but I would have thought more traffic heads south through the town to access Croagh Patrick and other tourist attractions. Hopefully it comes in time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    I'd like to see the traffic data too but it seems Allergan at the time had a big say in what happened at the Westport end. Also I think few could argue with the decision to redirect money from the Turlough side to take out the very bad bend at Barley hill and remove the missing link to the N59.

    Michael Ring has indicated that he will probably run again so if he manages to get a role in cabinet maybe he will target the southern bypass as one of his final projects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭HBC08


    Was something left out or not completed as a result of the redirection of funds? The Turlough end seems well finished but I didn't see original plans.

    There's definitely a lot of extra traffic being directed to the Newport side of Westport (although they seem to be changing the signage)

    I don't know if that's such a bad thing as the massive daily tailbacks on Sheeaune Hill seem to have reduced.

    Also it's hard to tell as the schools are still off but general traffic and especially the ring road is flowing much better through Castlebar



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    The original plan was to extend the dual carriageway futher towards Turlough with another bridge linking to the village there. I think An Bord Pleanala shelved the idea on the basis that it was unnecessary. As far as I know this led to the idea of extending the N5 at the other end to link to the N59.

    The original idea for the Turlough end can be seen here in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-lYjNWrTHk

    Things definitely seem better at Knockranny and Sheeaune Hill but as you say we won't know for sure until the schools are back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,811 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    That won’t happen for years and years- still a long long list of towns and badly needed upgrades that have had nothing done on far busier routes way up the list. Westport has done well to get this far



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The N5 has had quite a good run of luck for getting upgrades since 2011 to be fair



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭spakman


    Well the scramogue to Ballagh section is atrocious - its delayed a couple of years at this stage



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,811 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    It’s the last bad section left. Compared with the likes of the N24 which is busier it’s done quite well and good to see. Political patronage does make a difference



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,655 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    And having a couple of huge multi nationals complaing about it.

    I read somewhere allergan had put extra packing on products because it would be damaged by the time it got to Dublin due to the state of the old N5.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Must be ready to start by now. Drove it twice in the last 2 weeks and it's such a frustrating stretch of road in this day and age. Convoys of cars and tailbacks every time. Will be a refief when the new road gets done.



  • Posts: 0 Iker Pitiful Tray


    I think the schools coming back coincides with the ending of the Summer tourist season in the town. Apart from the bank holiday weekend and midterm in October, plus Christmas, the Paddys Day BH and Eastertime, the town frees up a fair bit traffic wise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    It frees up a bit outside those times but things are very congested in July and August. Even aside from the difficulty for drivers getting through town it's not very pleasant for tourists or locals on the streets. I was with some friends recently sitting outside a cafe on main street (Bridge st) and we had to contend with the noise and pollution from trucks and buses amongst all the cars. not very pleasant. A bypass would probably allow a reduction from 2 lane to single lane on Bridge Street and Jame's Street with segregated cycle tracks either side. It would completely change the local environment for the better.

    Can't see it happening for long time unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,132 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Probably just testing it out...

    In terms of congestion in Westport, given that a southern bypass won't happen for years if ever, would it make sense to direct all the westbound and southbound traffic coming from Castlebar towards the new junction on the Newport Road, put James Street back to being two way and send all the Louisburgh and Leenane traffic up and down James Street both directions to keep it out of the very centre of the town?

    It's not a perfect solution but that way you could take a lot of the traffic out of Shop Street at one end of the town and Castlebar Street and the Mall areas at the other end, and possibly pedestrianise Bridge Street entirely? Seems like it would be better than having all that traffic being pushed straight up Bridge Street and Shop Street as happens now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    That's an interesting proposal. I'm just not sure the Octagon and Quay Hill can take all of that traffic, especially in the summer. It could end up making the town more of a bottleneck for N59 traffic. At the moment a lot of traffic heading for the Leenane Road uses High Street and rejoins the N59 at the fire station. If all of that traffic was concentrated on the Octagon area it could be too much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,655 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Some interesting traffic counts comparisons from the N5 from August 2022 and August 2023 with the new road opened. The counter is located just outside the castlebar on the eastern side on the R309 now. I have noticed a huge reduction in the amount HGV vehicles on the old R309 and you can see the HGV traffic has almost halved.

    All Traffic

    Aug 2022 424037

    Aug 2023 319074

    Just for comparison the westbound traffic.

    Aug 2022 210940

    Aug 2023 157214

    HGV_RIGS Westbound

    Aug 2022 5469

    Aug 2023 2333

    HGV_ART Westbound

    Aug 2022 3719

    Aug 2023 1850

    Data from Traffic Counts for Transport Infrastructure Ireland (tii.ie)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Great to see less HGVs passing through town. Hopefully the recently announced reduced speed limits will encourage even more to take the bypass option.

    Would be interesting to see counts for the bypass also to see what the total overall traffic numbers are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,739 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Thanks for that. Would be interesting if air quality comparisons could be made also like what was done for the Macroom bypass where, IIRC, the NOx value was reduced by more than half.

    While total traffic has reduced by a quarter, it's interesting to note about the HGV traffic dropping by more than a half. I'd speculate that a lot of these are heading to/from Allergan/Abbvie in Westport, which makes the creation of the Westport Northern Bypass with a direct connection to the industrial estate there look even more justified both from a traffic and air quality point of view.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭statto25


    Whats is traffic like now on the old road from Castlebar to Westport? I wouldnt mind taking a cycle over that direction. Under the old route, it was far too dangerous traffic wise.



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