How to Win Staff Back Over?

J.Biz

I read a lot here but never posted before. Desperately need some advice from other business people and would hugely appreciate if people could share their advice and opinions as people here have lots of experience.

I own a small business and am having a huge problem with one department / group of people. Basically they've lost all motivation and care for their work. I've had the employees of this department with me for 4-8 years and in that time the business has grown but they haven't really grown with the business. In the last year this department has become distracted with their personal lives - marriages, babies, houses etc which is great but their work has really suffered. Its now at the stage where they are preforming so badly its threatening the businesses survival.

Major mistakes like mis-quoting for contracts, a job they've done competently for the last several years has suddenly become a challenge and they refuse to take ownership for errors and they recur. For example they mis-quoted on several jobs recently - some were above the set out pricing formula so we didnt get the contract and another one didn't covered cost of materials so we had to take the hit and do the job at a loss to save face. Both times, I was told it was a mistake but really they can't be held responsible as they feel under pressure. Everything takes them about twice to three times as long as it should /used to do. One employee had a stand up row with me over whether it was ok to have a radio on in the open plan office - while another colleague was on the phone to a customer. There is a huge entitlement mentality.

If I reprimand one person, they all group together in sympathy for their friend and productivity for the next week is awful. These mistakes are really really basic nothing they can't handle but they just dont care. Ask for a quote for a green widget - about 20% of the time they will send prices for a yellow one with a diagram of the red model. Its not one mistake per task its up to five, worse its the same mistakes over and over. Now i've needed to have manager in another department check every element of work they do which means less time spent on growing the business and moral down further. Managing them out doesnt really seem to be an option as they are all tightly knit group of friends and i cant manage out the whole department at the same time without risking unfair dismissal - and they know it.

I've tried having a staff night out to get moral up, offering free dinner and drink all night - but they asked if they'd get paid over time to attend and then refused the dates suggested as they were all busy. Then I arranged a pizza in for lunch one day. For a team of 6 we needed to go to three different places due to diets, the other departments just all had pizza and frankly make inter department relationships worse as the others lost respect for them a little more after that department all went off on their hour entitled lunch break post having the hour long lunch. So now no department gets any perks as its not worth the risk, which in itself is unfair.

A year and a bit ago we had a major fire and it set the company back a lot, nearly closing us down. Since then things are been very tough, we avoided any cut in wages during the recession, but this month for example i couldnt afford to pay my wage from the business (p30 and vat came at once). When we loose orders I guess i take it very personally as its the difference between having enough in the kitty after meeting our bills for my wage. I feel if i cant turn them around I'll need to let them all go but can't afford redundancy pay and even if we offered it they wont take it as there arent many other jobs in the area. Please dont take this as a sob story, once we make it through this Christmas we'll be back in a great position again and we are fortunate enough to be growing. So i am very positive about the business.

We have had open and frank discussions, and they tell me its a thankless job and they are under resourced (although if they met their targets they would be 35% over staffed according to the data). I've tried to help them with their performance, when im looking over their shoulder / coaching them they can preform a task in say 1 hour, this same highly repetitive task when im not around takes on average 2.5 hours; I can do it in 30 mins. Regarding thanking they possibly have a point in fairness, i feel its not sincere to tell them great job when they are making so many mistakes and so far behind on performance targets. Kind of a vicious circle, but im also terrified if i start tell them they are great i'll be setting myself up for an unfair dismissal claim for bringing in people more motivated to preform the roles without the errors and marginalizing them.

I really dont want to let the whole department go, but i've exhausted all my ideas of how to turn them around. I dont know if im being too hard or two soft on them, i do take responsibility that somehow i've let this happen and the buck stops with me. External people think im a push over and those staff think I'm an awful inconvenience / negative person. When i ask them how to turn the situation around they say things like more money and thank us for our work, but if they just did their part of the function right we'd have more customers. I could be genuinely grateful and share performance related bonuses. It's very chicken and egg. I've send them on courses to upgrade their skills but was told the investment in them was a "waste of time".

Apolgies this went on so long and thanks for reading this far if you have made it. I guess my question is what would you do and how would you do it if you were in my shoes?

Bigus

Move your desk into their office,

if this is such a critical part of the business, it requires drastic action.

6 months of you should thin them out or sort the problem, or maybe you'll understand their position rightly or wrongly.

antoinolachtnai

What to do: it is very hard to say what you should do exactly because there is relatively little information for very good reasons. Most of all I would say that you should work out your thoughts and feelings and trust them trust your feelings and thoughts in broad general terms. This is your business and you have to be responsible for it. Take advice but don't be afraid to do what you think has to be done.

Second part of your question - how to do it -. Do it right. Get the expert advice you need, even if you have difficulty affording it. You are more than likely going to have to do something pretty serious in terms of employment law. You need to get HR/employment law advice about this to make sure you are in a position to do it right. In particular you need to be clear on whether you fire people or make them redundant and you have to follow the correct procedure depending on which route you are going.

(I guess that gives a clue as to what i think you'll probably have to do too. But as I say, I don't know your situation.)

srsly78

Fire them all, or give them all raises - depending on your philosophy. Do you operate your business as a communist welfare state or for profit?

Bear in mind, you have LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY to your shareholders (maybe meaning yourself) to maximise profit! So in theory you could be sued (by yourself wahey, or maybe other shareholders) for messing around and not making profit. If can be argued that employee well-being is a long-term thing, and that investing in this will pay back in long term profits.... This is how pensions and medical stuff came to be after all (look after employees = more profits long term).

J.Biz

Bigus wrote: »

Move your desk into their office,

Can't quite do this as I've to be client facing mostly during the 8am-6pm hours in order to do my job of bringing in the most amount of business leads possible and keeping the customers happy. I do all my desk related work after they go home and at the weekends. Hopefully that will change next year and I'll reduce my hours. There is a senior person in that office to help monitor the situation. But I do try to spend as much time as possible in that department when in the office I do always sit in that office rather than my own.

Thanks antoinolachtnai, will definitely be following the letter of the laws in terms of how we deal with it. That stuff keeps me up at night even though we've never had problems with it before. Truthfully although they say they hate their jobs out company has had almost no employee turnover, maybe due to lack of better offers rather than loyalty though.

srsly78 Genuinely can't afford to fire them incase of an unfair dismissal claim. Management and owners word against several people? From what I've heard its always anti-employer in those cases. Hence why big companies announce big redundancy packages while simultaneously doing employment drives. Can't afford the redundancy until early next year. Which sounds awful, saving up to fire unproductive people doesn't seem fair on them or us as they loose the potential to find more suitable careers and start climbing those ladders if they decide thats what they want.

I really want to do the right thing but i think at the moment the right thing is to sit on my hands and bite my tongue. These are good people, It's just the motivation is gone and they dont see the point in trying when they get paid to show up. Can't incentivise performance with pay increases (any more than we are already doing) without the other departments who have been doing massive effort feeling unfairly treated. Frankly the pay incentives havent worked for this group as they think they are entitled to them anyway and not getting them is unfair / demotivating.

protelos

Hi there,

God it makes for depressing reading to be honest! You go without and they work at 20% efficiency and have the audacity to stay because they can’t find other jobs in the area. I am no Taylorist in terms of work conditions but a bit of gratitude and respect for what you have provided them would be nice.

Like others have said you don’t know what will work until after the event yet I would like to add a few ideas off the top of my head.

• Good Cop: have an individual performance review with an open discussion about what they would like to achieve in two years in the company. Re-assure them that you can make that happen if a pre-stated level of performance is met. I wonder would a quick business lesson give them more of an insight of how your business works help, decrease mistakes, increase sales etc…you no the drill.

• Middle Cop: In my experience there are always a small number of idiots running the show. If it is one or two move them to a job that will not affect the business hugely. I am reading between the lines but an inter-departmental move will be easy. It might be an idea to replace that person with a close alpha fe/male allies or friend who will shape the new culture. Re-motivate the work force etc….It is amazing how easy it might change when said apples are gone. You could even fire them and take your chances in court €5K in a few years?!

• Bad Cop: Hard for people to do but put on the game face and turn into a total pr#@k, I am sure some will leave. Pity you can’t throw them all out and see how they survive without your generosity.

• Finally do you have your disciplinary processes and grievances in order? Surely walking out for an hour un-authorised would warrant a waning and you would be well on the way to getting them out. I know you said you can’t manage them out, but this is a breach of conditions, regardless of how many of them do it.

Like I said just my opinions and options hope it goes well!

P.S. If I took two hours for lunch and my boss said sh#t, I wound no who has the upper hand

mikemac1

Is it everyone in the department that has lost motivation or if you look more closely is it just one or two bad apples? Misery likes company and while most every office had a moaner (dont shot me but usually middle aged women in my experience) or two they can depress the others and drag them down.

Most people are going to want to do well and work hard but it's difficult to go against the tide. When it was decided to go to lunch after pizza think who made that decision and did others just follow. Maybe some wanted to work but didn't want to sit on their own working and feel like a fool as everyone else was gone.

If you are a good worker and see others taking long lunches, multiple tea breaks and taking careless shortcuts then you'll be looking at management and how they will react.

If the bosses do nothing then why would a good worker "kill" themselves to do a good job if it won't be noticed and everyone gets treated the same. Others will fall to the level the laziest person set.

I've been guilty of strolling into work 20 minutes late every single day but I rationalized it as I don't take smoke/tea/coffee breaks and I'm covering their phone calls as they disappear throughout day. Probably I was wrong but my job got done.

Be positive OP and give them a talk about the overall business and the pressures they never see.
And be stern by giving some sort of appraisal system but don't give everyone the same safe score or it's a waste of time .

No Pants

Could you possibly outsource your HR and let someone else manage it according to the letter of the law?

NSAman

I agree with mikemac1. It only takes one or two bad apples to ruin a team. You have spotted a weakness, arriving one hour late after the pizza incident should have been a warning at least.

You need to start clamping down. When "mistakes" are made each mistake should be noted and presented to the originator. Once they know that there are repercussions for their actions they will definitely take notice. If they have been with you for such a period of time, the entitlement mentality will absolutely be there. You have a responsibility to develop and keep the business profitable, they have a job to do. I am sorry to say, if they are failing to do the job, then drastic action is needed.

Someone else said interdepartmental swapping; this may also shake them up into seeing how the other departments work and may weed out those that are causing this.

It really makes for depressing reading but I certainly understand where you are coming from. Monitoring of them more closely over a longer period of time with cautions for misdemeanors should tell them something is afoot.

racso1975

Can I come work for you? Cannot believe they looked for overtime for a free night out!!!!! I would look at the inter departmental swap too unless they have particular or lack particular skills relevant to the departments.

Hate seeing a good employer being taken advantage of. If this does not work out then I think you are perfectly right to save up and make them redundant.

rotun

With the exception of the fire, you could be taking about the company I work for.

What the management did was break up the group by way of interdepartmental training.
The ones who jumped at the chance to get away showed they were not the problem.
The ones who fought the change were watched and through official warning policy, gone within a year.
The company is a healthier place to work now, and the staff who were being led by the four ring leaders have excelled since.

pedronomix

rotun wrote: »

With the exception of the fire, you could be taking about the company I work for.

What the management did was break up the group by way of interdepartmental training.
The ones who jumped at the chance to get away showed they were not the problem.
The ones who fought the change were watched and through official warning policy, gone within a year.
The company is a healthier place to work now, and the staff who were being led by the four ring leaders have excelled since.

Very good post and a good model to follow.

Effectively this situation is a management failure of failing to manage. Effectively they have had a coup and are now managing you. You will need to understand why and how this happened and make sure you never allow it to happen again. That is an item for the future, at this point.

Forget about trying to win them back, they will only see this as weakness on your part. Divide, control, discipline and conquer is the way forward. Dont worry about nice, strong and fair is the way to do it with immediate disciplinary warnings etc. If pushed too far, make an example of the worst offender and fire them ( make sure you have a strong file of correctly administered warnings first!) You will get a huge level of support from the other staff in the other depts as they will detest seeing this group jeopardising company and their very employment. This is a disease and could widen in scope in your enterprise unless managed properly.

If you think you are not up to it ( no disgrace in that, we are all differently talented) , bring in an outsider or a non-exec director to clean up the dept.. can have a very big impact because they will assume that they will NOT get away with way they treat you.

You will get one shot at this, do it and do not waver. It is a jungle in there, good luck!

LynnGrace

rotun wrote: »

With the exception of the fire, you could be taking about the company I work for.

What the management did was break up the group by way of interdepartmental training.
The ones who jumped at the chance to get away showed they were not the problem.
The ones who fought the change were watched and through official warning policy, gone within a year.
The company is a healthier place to work now, and the staff who were being led by the four ring leaders have excelled since.

pedronomix wrote: »

Very good post and a good model to follow.

Forget about trying to win them back, they will only see this as weakness on your part. Divide, control, discipline and conquer is the way forward. Dont worry about nice, strong and fair is the way to do it with immediate disciplinary warnings etc. If pushed too far, make an example of the worst offender and fire them ( make sure you have a strong file of correctly administered warnings first!) You will get a huge level of support from the other staff in the other depts as they will detest seeing this group jeopardising company and their very employment. This is a disease and could widen in scope in your enterprise unless managed properly.

If you think you are not up to it ( no disgrace in that, we are all differently talented) , bring in an outsider or a non-exec director to clean up the dept.. can have a very big impact because they will assume that they will NOT get away with way they treat you.

You will get one shot at this, do it and do not waver. It is a jungle in there, good luck!

Agreed. Reading your initial post, what struck me was, there is a ringleader in there or possibly more than one. It's past time to split them up, if at all possible.
The bit about them taking an extra hour after being taken out for lunch, that shows an attitude that stinks, to high heaven. I'm afraid they are walking on you OP.
It's not about winning them back, it's as others have said time to hang tough. If you need to bring someone in, do it. I'd certainly suggest getting outside advice.
It's interesting that it's only in one area, again, that suggests to me that it's a few bad apples. Others might welcome a chance to get away from them
I agree with other posters, there can be a resident moaner in many a workplace, but someone can be a moaner and still turn out proper work. This is gone a lot further than that. Can you keep a record of mistakes being made, and the cost to the company, as a result? It could be useful if you do end up taking a tough stance with the ones doing it.
Best of luck OP it's unpleasant, but hopefully can be resolved, for the good of your business.

The Corinthian

Seriously though, you've painted a pretty bleak picture of this department.

In your position, I would first try to find out what the problem is. While it sounds like there is at least one rotten apple there, you're not going to see such moral problem unless there are some issues present. Try to find out what these are through their reviews, or preferably in more informal settings (lunch, pint after work, etc). If the same issues are brought up more than once, then there is a problem to be solved.

Secondly, this department is getting worse, not better. That means that sooner or later it simply won't be able to function. As such you need to salt away, where possible, it's more critical functions to other departments in the company, at least as a temporary measure.

Finally, do as rotun has suggested. Cut out the rot, and deal with the legitimate grievances and reward those who want to improve things.

J.Biz

Thanks so much for all your advice, you are all so generous and i really appreciate it. I'm going to try splitting the department in two and separate them to a different areas of the office. Cant transfer them to other departments as they wouldnt be qualified / capable. Certainly going to start mapping out a warning system for mistakes.

pedronomix

That is fine, but it is pointless unless you sit them down individually and explain why you are doing it, what you expect of them. tell them you will be scoring their performances and this will dictate their future prospects with the company.. if any!!

J.Biz

Thats a really good idea pedronomix.

Hillybilly4

Hi J.Biz - just wanted to say that after reading your original post I felt your pain/stress over the dilemma you're facing. I can only imagine what this situation is doing to your wellbeing/health/personal life, never mind the financial repercussions.
You sound like a "good guy" employer and I sincerely hope that you manage to get this awful situation sorted. The advice offered above is all food for thought for you so I do hope that by getting to the situation of needing to post on here and having the guts to do so you have at least now got some ideas to think about implementing and, if nothing else, some moral support for yourself. Best of luck.

pedroeibar1

There are two issues here – first (as already identified) is that the lunatics now have control of the asylum. Second issue, to put it bluntly, is you. This situation would not have happened if you were managing properly. You say you are ‘out’ most of the day, yet you do not mention who is in charge when you are not there. Serious disciplinary events have happened yet no warnings (verbal or written) have been issued. Etc., etc.,

It is quite possible (probable?) that you are in the ‘draining the swamp’ position – you are up to your a$$ in so many alligators that you have forgotten that your primary objective is to drain the swamp i.e. manage your business. So, you might not be in a position to implement/oversee/resolve the solutions put so succinctly by others above because either you are 'out' or you are too close to the business to see the issues as they develop (wood / trees). You need a proper management structure and I would advocate outside help – a management course (helps you network, learn new stuff, time out helps you see issues differently & bring more focus). Maybe an independent director on your board would be a help – I think it would.

You also need to consider your own skillsets and the future direction of your company. Clearly you have made a remarkable achievement in building up a business so you have what it takes to do that. Bringing a business to ‘the next level’ requires different skills and not every entrepreneur has them. Maybe you should bring in a new person as CEO, take a step back yourself and consider working on another venture?

Yer Aul One

Move these staff into different separate departments and backfill them. Make it very clear you are moving them to give them a new chance because of their poor performance in the old department. If they continue to under perform, work them out.
This will obviously mean you will have to take a hit on the performance of the old department while people get trained up but hopefully it will pay off in the long term.

The key is to split the bad group up. They will be more manageable in new environments and if they start to become infectious to the current team, you have serious ammunition to strike.

pedronomix

It is a bit early to consider firing yourself, but if it happens again... it might be a good idea. Being an Entrepreneur is an evolutionary thing and we must never stop learning from experiences, both good and bad. Being a great entrepreneur and a great owner/manager are in no way mutually exclusive but together are the Nirvana.

Little Acorn

Could you set up something like weekly performance reviews for each person? I've heard before that people work best to deadlines and have found it true personally.

You mentioned that under your watch they are able to complete their task in 1 hour whereas when you are not there it takes them 2.5 hours.
If you have not already formally noted this time difference with them then I suggest you watch them again one day (without telling them your intentions at first) and then afterwards say that you were trying to get a feel for the time the work takes - and that as you have noticed it takes one hour and also took one hour the last time you monitored that this is the goal/aim for each person and nobody should be taking much longer than that.
You could even say that the new team aim to work towards is to be less than one hour if necessary.

Having this timeframe in mind set out the expected amount of work you expect each person to have completed within a certain timeframe.
At each weekly review assess whether or not each person has met their required workload task to an acceptable standard.

If Not, evrything recorded and warnings all around for people who are not meeting their duties in the job.

Obviously have your warning system and new plan discussed with all before implementing this idea.

pedroeibar1

pedronomix wrote: »

It is a bit early to consider firing yourself, but if it happens again... it might be a good idea. Being an Entrepreneur is an evolutionary thing and we must never stop learning from experiences, both good and bad. Being a great entrepreneur and a great owner/manager are in no way mutually exclusive but together are the Nirvana.

Agreed. Too many posters are missing the fundamental issue and are addressing the result, not the cause.

GarIT

Firing somebody for underperforming is perfectly acceptable and you can't be done for unfair dismissal if you follow a proper procedure.

What you should do is tell them now that are doing a performance review throughout this month. On the 1st of September bring the worst 10% into your office (individually) and tell them they have 3 months to be out of the bottom 10% or they will loose their jobs. Repeat the process every 3 months, reviewing on the 3rd month. Sack anyone who remains in the bottom 10% and hire replacements. Anyone in that office will be aware that they won't find work elsewhere.

Another thing you could do is hire a relative or a friend to work in the company and tell you who is causing the problems.

_Brian

Split them up as as soon as possible. Would it be possible to bring in some performance targets. This would strengthen your position regarding eliminating non performing employees and facilitate rewarding good performing employees.
No matter what there is no quick fix. Choose a strategy, explain it and then work towards it with confidence. I get the impression here that the tail is wagging the dog, can I ask regarding discipline for repeat mistakes, have you terminated anyone for it?? They may see you as a pushover and are just continuing to push out the boundaries of what is acceptable.

I suggested recently to a friend with similar problems.
The department is offered 5% bonus in the month for orders delivered on time and without mistakes. One mistake halves the bonus and a second eliminates it.
He's currently working the details with an employee rep and the feedback is positive. They are currently missing 60-70% of orders.

Buttercake

srsly78 wrote: »

Fire them all

+1

its easy to speak objectively as its not my own company but business is business, there is no loyalty from them and it sounds/looks like the place is gone stale.

i wouldn't even wait around, it will be Christmas before you know it. Rebrand the company or even a new logo. Have polices and procedures in place for new employees, even changing dress policy to make them look smarter can breath new life into employees.

Paint the office walls a new colour, get some plants in(the flowering kind) in and reinvigorate the business from top to bottom.

CatFromHue

If you're implementing a new disciplinary practice be aware that everyone knows about it before hand.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/deep-pile-of-cash-for-carpet-workers-who-slept-on-job-26504010.html

Trojan

Tough situation OP, I empathise completely with you, both as a business owner now, and as a former "negative employee" who was in the wrong job and was a disruptive influence.

I think you need a dual carrot & stick approach, with implementation of formal disciplinary procedures as the first step in the "stick" part of it.

I can't agree with the "fire them all" advice above, you need to put certain things in place first, but some of the refresh advice is spot on.

There are independent HR consultants who are experts in employment law and dealing with these kinds of situations, I think you should talk to someone like that if you're finding this difficult to cope with. I can suggest a specific person if you need somewhere to start looking - PM me.

DubTony

I think pedroeibar1 has hit the nail on the head here. My first thought when reading the OP was that these people are not being managed, or at best they're not being managed well. If this department is so vital to the survival of the business, it's absolutely vital that it is the best managed, most productive department in the business.

J.Biz, you say that you are customer facing during working hours, but it seems that many of your efforts are in vain, as your employees are quite capable of f*cking up the business you're bringing in.

Here's how I see it. You're either the business manager or the salesman. In a business of the size of yours, you can't be both. If being the salesman is your thing, hire someone to run the business, or at very least put a good manager in charge of THAT department. Also make sure that, at least for a period of time, their work is checked before going out. This alone will weed out the idiots, and they can be pulled up on their work before it does any damage. I'd even go so far as to bet that some of them would leave. The idea of someone looking over their shoulders for 40 hours a week will drive some to the door. They just won't be able to handle it. Ensure the manager has a good knowledge of employment law, so that he/she can go through the process without having to run it past you at every turn.

The up-side of good management is that people know what's expected of them. Rogues within the dept. will feel under pressure, and if they know they can't get away with nonsense any more they'll either shape up or ship out.

It's vital that proper work procedures are in place. Vital that employees are aware of what's expected and the repercussions if procedures aren't followed. And when somebody screws up, that measures are taken to ensure it doesn't happen again. In cases where employees either don't get better or just seem to not want to, it's not that difficult to "manage" them out of the business through performance reviews and disciplinary procedures.

The old saying goes "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".
Some of these employees are, without a doubt, acting the bollix. And if you're letting them away with it, the blame falls firmly at your feet.

edit: I just re-read this

If I reprimand one person, they all group together in sympathy for their friend and productivity for the next week is awful ...... Now i've needed to have manager in another department check every element of work they do which means less time spent on growing the business and moral down further. Managing them out doesnt really seem to be an option as they are all tightly knit group of friends and i cant manage out the whole department at the same time without risking unfair dismissal - and they know it.

This looks like an impossible task, until you step back from it a little. Checking the work they do needs to be a part of the solution, so you've taken a step in the right direction there. Unless the business is serving its customers in the best possible way, growing the business is irrelevant. You'll simply be spinning your wheels bringing in new business only to lose it due to carelessness and stupidity.

Every time one of them brings shoddy work to their manager, a note of this should be taken. Have a short meeting to discuss the actual work, and offer help if needed. Manage this meticulously. If they get help and instruction from a manager, have them sign "training sheets" to confirm they have received the necessary training/refresher they needed. If, after a few occasions, they still haven't gotten their act together, then start the disciplinary procedures. As long as you've a paper trail that shows you tried to help them to do their job, if it ever comes to legal, you'll be in a very strong position. Just remember that, legally, your objective should be to help a person be better at their job. If it looks like you're managing somebody out, you could be looking at constructive dismissal. So it's important to give them time to improve. It'll likely be painful for you, but effective managing out must never look like it.

BTW, the stand up row thing? In my book, that's gross misconduct. I'd have fired him before he had time to switch the radio off. But I think that that whole episode shows that your people have stepped well over any boundaries that may have once been set down. It's time to reintroduce a few - let's call them "guidelines" - so that the people know why they're there and who's in charge. It certainly looks like this is the place they go to to collect money every month.

J.Biz

Thanks Everyone for your advice. I agree with pedroeibar1 - Part of the problem is me I've let this area of the business slip and only recently started tracking how long the work was taking and their metrics, so it was a sudden shock. One of the group was a manager of the division, in hindsight the business out grew her and when we found the preformance metrics out was immediately demoted. Then as we started to address it we've met the underlying attitude. To clarify there is a onsite manager that runs the day to day in the business, not a CEO in title . She's relatively new in and has inherited this crowd, she's very good but is as frustrated as I am. They do respect her but it's a case of they have been used to doing it this way for a while and feel being asked to preform better is stressful - which they then blame for mistakes. If we didnt have to do our work fast we wouldnt make mistakes, fair point but the targets we are asking are reasonable and there is no excuse for not following procedures.

Now all their work is checked, every mistake means a meeting with the manager, warnings will be issued for repeat offenses of the same mistake. Still havent found a solution to the disparity in targets.

DubTony from what i understood you can't fire someone on the spot you need to formally set up a disciplinary meeting 24 hours later to discuss the matter?

pedronomix

I think you have gotten some really good advice and developed a decent strategy to get you out of this mess. As I said in Post 12, The sin was Management Failure by failure to manage... learn this lesson well and it will greatly enhance your business and your personal wellbeing!!

DubTony

J.Biz wrote: »

Thanks Everyone for your advice. I agree with pedroeibar1 - Part of the problem is me I've let this area of the business slip and only recently started tracking how long the work was taking and their metrics, so it was a sudden shock. One of the group was a manager of the division, in hindsight the business out grew her and when we found the preformance metrics out was immediately demoted. Then as we started to address it we've met the underlying attitude. To clarify there is a onsite manager that runs the day to day in the business, not a CEO in title . She's relatively new in and has inherited this crowd, she's very good but is as frustrated as I am. They do respect her but it's a case of they have been used to doing it this way for a while and feel being asked to preform better is stressful - which they then blame for mistakes. If we didnt have to do our work fast we wouldnt make mistakes, fair point but the targets we are asking are reasonable and there is no excuse for not following procedures.

Now all their work is checked, every mistake means a meeting with the manager, warnings will be issued for repeat offenses of the same mistake. Still havent found a solution to the disparity in targets.

DubTony from what i understood you can't fire someone on the spot you need to formally set up a disciplinary meeting 24 hours later to discuss the matter?

It can be tough to bring a new person in to manage a dysfunctional department/business, but this is where strength is required. Ideally a new manager comes into that situation with all guns blazing, coupled with a bit of an authoritarian attitude to shake things up, and then relax after the crap has been sorted. (I know, makes me sound like one of them old style managers But I never got any crap from my employees). Looks like you're on the right track. Getting through it will take time and patience, but it'll be worth it.

With regard to gross misconduct and summary dismissal.

Here's what http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html says about it

Conduct
As a ground for fair dismissal the term conduct covers a very large area of behaviour. There is a need to distinguish between gross misconduct and ordinary instances of misconduct.

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.



I guess it comes down to what would be regarded as gross misconduct. Just be aware that an employee can be instantly dismissed.

antoinolachtnai

Employees can certainly be instantly dismissed.

If the situation arises though, I would suggest suspending the employee immediately by sending them home, then regrouping and deciding what to do. Sometimes people get hot-headed and the advantage is that this gives an opportunity to back out of a situation and consider the context and get advice. You can then hold a hearing and go through with the dismissal or change course. You should also provide for an appeal procedure in your employment contract so that even if someone gets fired on the spot there is still a right of appeal of some sort. (You need to make sure that every employee has an employment contract.)

The fact that there are a lot of employment law considerations in this country shouldn't stop you from acting boldly and doing what you need to do to save your business. It just means that you have to do it with a lot of skill so that you can show that your actions are fair.

_Brian

I would urge you not to terminate an employee on te spot for failure to meet targets or making a mistake.
This type of termination is dangerous ground and typically reserved for gross misconduct usually deliberate offences.

Have a disciplinary process.

Verbal warning - written down and signed.
Written warning.
Final written warning
Then termination.

This will save you having your ass dragged through the courts.

pedroeibar1

There are a couple of points above that are worth repeating
Firstly, as Antoinolachtnai says every employee needs (and legally should have) an employment contract. That contract should spell out everything, from job description, holiday entitlement, to dress code for customer facing staff, to internet access and usage. (Legally he is right on firing, but it is not a route I would take a chance on.)

Secondly, like Brian above I am not an advocate of firing an employee without the three strikes protocol, it simply is too risky. Even if you win an unfair dismissals case (and the odds are heavily stacked against an employer), the costs and time spent on it will be huge, not to mention the stress and distraction from your core activity.

The real message is that you need to be SEEN to be taking charge again. Be careful not to undermine your No.2, work in conjunction to achieve set goals. Take control in small ways initially, but let the staff know that you are back in control. Small things will send the message and they will see it – it is not petty, it sends a message. If you buy a newspaper for your reception area stop doing so, as it generally is used by the staff ( if you really need it there, give an instruction that it is for customers only and not to be removed by staff.) If there are biscuits provided in the canteen, stop buying them. If queried, do not apologise, do not explain, do not give reasons. (If you have to, let it be known quietly that you are seriously pi$$ed over the cost of two missed orders/contracts.) Do not let everyone know where you are when out of the office. Come back into the office unannounced during the day; find out what is happening and any infraction gets actioned. Call your switchboard. Count the number of ‘rings’ and comment on it, as in ‘Well done, picked up after 3 rings’ or ‘why did it take ten rings before pick-up?’ Be there early, do not tolerate lateness. But if someone performs above the norm remark on it also and buy a cake, saying for e.g. ‘I met Joe from XYZ Ltd and he was really appreciative of X doing Y so quickly/whatever’. You probably know all this stuff but you have too many ‘alligators’ to see it clearly.

Performance appraisals - everyone hates them, but they would be useful in your case. It is a bit simplistic, but in reality employees like to know where they stand, and it is really demotivating for the good ones to see a few w@nkers repeatedly get away with bad performance.

Somewhere at the back of my head I have a recollection that some of the posters here are/were connected with the SFA and might be able to advise if it has standard template contracts/performance reviews so membership of an organization like that could be very worthwhile.
Best of luck with it.

Phil_Lives

You know you have a problem in a department but don't know what it is.
You are the Manager so you are the last one who will find out.

Hire a go-for or junior admin to "help" them for a few weeks. They will actually be an observer and would be aware of this when going in.
That person will be observer and will tell you who is who in the department.

I remember in my first paid job the Production Manager couldn't figure out why our cell wasn't working. 1/2 particular people in the cell were intent on destroying productivity in the Cell. Production Manager knew something wasn't right but hadn't a clue what it was as he was an outsider who wasn't being given reliable information from the team.

J.Biz

Thanks Everyone, especially Pedroeibar1 you've been so helpful. I wish I had you or someone like you on my team.

We do have all the employment contracts and disciplinary procedures in place, we just need to start enforcing them now. As Phil pointed out its about half the people that are the problem and the other half probably under preform to avoid making the others look bad and creating an environment where they would be very uncomfortable. Using all your advice above we now have a plan in place. Thanks again everyone, you have no idea what a relief it was to be able to discuss this.

padma

A pal of mine in Australia works with businesses and conflict situations in business. He sent me a YouTube video this morning with him explaining about collaboration with staff. I feel it may be a good thing to pass on to you, just as something to ponder on a more holistic level of managing your employees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyJI27O68G0

dvd

some good advice already given here.
this sounds like where i used to work. you will find that there is one or two calling the shots and influencing the rest. you need to identify and get rid of these . even if it costs you a few thousand euro in a year or two. then if you can get one of the most respected person thats left and appoint he/she a supervisor and explain whats expected of them.
the problem seems to be that you allowed things to gradually slide over time and the employees kept taking. it is now very hard to reign it back.

okiss

I have some idea of what you are going through J.Biz. My relatives have a small business with a number of employees. A few years ago they had a problem employee but after getting legal advice they worked this person out of the company.

I would do the following as Brian said - Have a disciplinary process.
Verbal warning - written down and signed.
Written warning.
Final written warning
Then termination.

What Phil_Lives said here is a good idea.
Hire a go-for or junior admin to "help" them for a few weeks. They will actually be an observer and would be aware of this when going in.
That person will be observer and will tell you who is who in the department.

Once you have built up a clear picture of what is going on, who is causing you problems and not pulling there weight. I would then get legal advice from some one who knows employment law. Get them to look at your current work contact and be prepared to change this to include the following:
a) have regular staff reviews
b) allow you to move people into other business sections
c) see if you can put them on a 3 day week due to lack of contracts/work.
If you look up welfare.ie you can find out more about this. It would save you money on wages, tax and prsi. Your staff would sign on the days they are not working and it would improve you business cash flow.

I would arrange to have a chat with each person in the department in private and ask them how do they think they are doing?
What can you do to improve things? You may hear complaints but you may get some ideas of how things can be improved. You might have a staff member who could tell you it is hard to work with "Mark" due to a & b.
I would let them know that you are not happy about losing contact x and losing money on contact y due to people making mistakes. I would then ask them do they need retraining on how to do a, b,c?
If you do retraining get this put on paper to show it was done and the trainer and staff member both sign it. You need to put yourself in a position that unless there is improvement you can remove a person out of the business.

The reality is that you are running a company and not a charity. You need to make a profit to pay your wages, revenue, the other bills, to keep people in employment and long term you need to have cash reserves to replace/repair items and to improve the business.

beauf

I can only echo what others have said. But Abide by their contracts.

Make some of them team leads with clear reasonable performance metrics. Any team that under performs the team leader is reasonable. Make them compete with each other for You also need them to be able to stand out from each other. You need to build up some clear provable data on who is under performing.

Perhaps there's some software you can buy or get written than can eliminate a lot of mistake and reduce the workload. Allowing staff to concentrate on key tasks and not be buried under repetitive work. Perhaps some software that give idea of metrics that the staff will find useful. Give them more job satisfaction.

Define a clear goal that the objective is to improve the business, and its not a witch hunt.

I think its great you are looking for ideas. I would question how good the managers you have in place are if they haven't done this already.

Mrs OBumble

J.Biz wrote: »

One of the group was a manager of the division, in hindsight the business out grew her and when we found the preformance metrics out was immediately demoted. Then as we started to address it we've met the underlying attitude. To clarify there is a onsite manager that runs the day to day in the business, not a CEO in title . She's relatively new in

I was thinking about this overnight, and had a flash of the blindingly obvious:

You demoted someone instead of working to upskill them, and then you got in a new manager from outside. Basically telling the staff in the area that you think they're cr*p, and have no prospects.

It's no wonder that they got demotivated!

I know, there's more too it than that, it would have taken too long to bring the demoted one up to speed, the manager needs a broader skillset etc. But fundamentally what I wrote above is what your staff are thinking.

Strong management will get you back to minimum performance levels. But if you want the staff to go beyond that, to excel, to do the best for your business, then you have to give them some hope that there's a better future role for them - and a clear pathway to achieve that.

pedronomix

Good post Mrs O'Bumble and maybe you are spot on, however, I would not discount the notion that they are cr*p and need to just do the job or ship out! Either way, it is shape up or take the alternative!

padma

I would tend to agree with Mrs O Bumble's analysis. If for example she is correct, it is a classic example of how mistrust, lack of communication and top down management can have a massive effect on front line staff..

I don't believe that anyone goes into work with the intention of messing up, and even if they do mess up, they need to be guided in a better direction, trained and fully equipped to deal with the next situation that arises. People make mistakes, leader's roles are to improve and bring out the best in their teams, it is not to sack, demotivate or demote someone, but to build up, rely and ultimately trust their team.

Everyone has a right to dignity in the workplace, and a culture that is looking towards farming people out of work is doomed to fail, or at the least end up with people stressed in work leading to health repercussions for everyone in the workplace.

Carrot can lead a team, but also a bottom up approach can work too.

pedronomix

interesting to note the differing perspectives of those who are running businesses and those working in a job or in them.

professore

Who is managing the department? Or is there no manager? Maybe that's part of the problem.

CelticRambler

Just catching up with this, so not much to add that hasn't already been said except to say that if you've got the data available, you could call a meeting of all staff in this department and lay it out for them: this department is a significant drain on the company profits and major reorganisatin is planned, to be completed in six months time. When they ask if this is likely to include redundancy, you say it's one option you're considering, along with changed working routines, reduced basic wages topped up by performance-related bonuses (if they're sales staff) and reassigning personnel to other departments. At that point, tell them you're looking for constructive comment from each and every member as to how their job and their department can be improved, and they're to deliver their views to the new manager by the end of [September]. Give them a prepared form to fill in, including a big blank space for "other comments"

As has been said above, your objective at this stage is not to try and win anyone back but to cut out the dead wood and leave the business with an efficient department. Speaking to the group as a whole means that, for now, you're not seen to be picking on any one person (you could even include the other departments), but giving them a form to fill in means that they have to take personal responsibility for their continued employment in the company. You can use that form later on to help separate the motivated from the zombies and help justify additional supervision and/or first warnings. Delegating the job to the new manager will help reinforce her position, and setting deadlines will concentrate the minds. Just make sure you come down hard on people who don't meet the first, and make sure you yourself have a genuine plan of action for the day after the second. Don't let yourself be lulled into thinking all's well with the world because you make it through Christmas.

Good luck - let us know how it all works out.

J.Biz

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You demoted someone instead of working to upskill them, and then you got in a new manager from outside. Basically telling the staff in the area that you think they're cr*p, and have no prospects.

It's no wonder that they got demotivated!

I know, there's more too it than that, it would have taken too long to bring the demoted one up to speed, the manager needs a broader skillset etc. But fundamentally what I wrote above is what your staff are thinking.

I can understand why you may have come to that conclusion but that isnt the case.

We did try up skilling. We brought in specialists and send them on external courses, when we asked them later was it worth the investment it was a universal no every time. The courses, which they chose, they said were too difficult or above their level and everyone else (in their role) taking the course there was far more qualified. Any form of training or up skilling is now seen as punishment, probably because sometimes the trainers have challenged their commitment / attitude.

The manager was moved from another department / role into them to manage their targets, anticipate what would be required and check their work. Things that the manager said she was unable to do. The move was made after a job went drastically wrong, causing many lost man days that would otherwise have been billable. But more to the point, it was being labelled as mistakes are unavoidable and no responsibility was taken - which means if a move wasn't made it would happen again.

From their perspective the less work that one does the less work that gets checked hence the less negative feedback and no one has had negative consequences before for slow work as they've been hiding behind excuses. We didn't have capacity to check metrics before the new system so they said they spent hours doing things which weren't true. We even outsourced some work which was done a lot cheaper and 100% accurately, so their jobs are on the line.

The company is growing so there is development opportunity, but frankly i'd spend as much time fixing their mistakes and dealing with the consequences lately as it would take me to do the tasks. I'm thinking i'd be happier in the short term having less staff and less problems.

In order to try turn them around we've given them minimum acceptable metrics and i've offered everyone one on one training, where i would watch over their shoulder for and then work with them to get their performance up to par. No one has taken me up on this offer. We thought about making it mandatory but then I was advised this could be used as an unfair dismissal case of making their job conditions unbearable and aggressively managing them out. We've also asked anyone who feels they aren't capable of meeting the metrics to come forward so we can move them to a different position / role and to suggest what they would like to do. We've explained why the situation cant continue as is, also our plans for expansion so that their jobs will become safe and their role in this. Generally there is just silence.

Hopefully things will turn around, only time will tell. Thanks again for the advice.

Thoie

J.Biz wrote: »

Thanks so much for all your advice, you are all so generous and i really appreciate it. I'm going to try splitting the department in two and separate them to a different areas of the office. Cant transfer them to other departments as they wouldnt be qualified / capable. Certainly going to start mapping out a warning system for mistakes.

Mrs O'Bumble touched on this, but you've had a group of people working in pretty much exactly the same role for 4+ years, and can't move them to other departments easily because they don't have the skills for it. Is there an obvious career progression in that role? I know you said they weren't interested in training, but surely out of a group of people, at least one may be interested in moving upwards?

Physically separating them if they're still doing the same jobs and collaborating may not help that much - you'll suddenly hear "Oh we were slow because we're not sitting beside each other any more".

Is there anything you could map out saying "these are the current skill sets of this role - here are the skillsets of <next role up the payscale>, and here's the skills gap between the two". That way people can see exactly what they'd need to proceed.

Another point is that if you're out all day doing "sales" type stuff, are you doing the right job? As the MD/CEO, is it time for you to take a step back from some of that day to day stuff, and get someone else in to do that for you, while you concentrate on running the business? If you enjoy the sales, and already have the contacts, the first thing you'll say to yourself is "I'm the only one who can meet these guys, I've got the relationships with them already, people like to see the head of the company". If you do think any of those things, ask yourself are they really true. Has the company grown to such a size that you need to hire someone else to do at least some of that work for you? Are you happy delegating that kind of thing?

Mrs OBumble

Mmm, if training is seen as punishment, then I'm thinking that they ARE crap, and the sooner you get rid of them the better! (Harsh, but there's something to it.)

J.Biz

Some people just arent interested in career progression to be honest. An sales support and administrative function can't just jump into being an engineer or lawyer for example. I've tried to bring people in that group on in their roles and to expand their abilities, we've opened new growth area's and empowered people in that department, however they've been unable to handle the expanded roles and declined more work in those area's retreating to comfort zones. On the other hand, people in other departments have taken their career by the horns and just run with it, climbing the ladder with just as much opportunity.

The job has grown with the business, some of the job functions that were repetitive have been automated some made quicker using software. But this hasnt free'd them up to do more work, just let them spread the left over work into more hours it would seem. Its not that they are sitting there doing nothing but they might spend six hours working on a €10 sale (loosing money) despite that not being protocol but its easy. Then not get around to the important regular large customer who has an urgent request.

In terms of my role, I don't want to give too much away or air my dirty laundry in public by naming the company for obvious reasons but I'm confident that I am adding the most value where it needs to be done. Say if we were a small cosmetic surgery and I was the only surgeon but the other roles were marketing, aftercare and customer support - If the surgeon wasn't part of the business the rest wouldn't come together and hiring another surgeon so i can babysit the unmotivated staff isn't an option because the cost would be too high and customers simply wouldn't support it. Certainly I'm not taking the easy roles or slacking. I am very present (currently still in the office well after mid-night and will be starting here at 6.30am tomorrow morning also). I've hired levels of management who are passing this problem back up the chain, understandably as to drop a whole department is a big decision and in the past i've always been immensely loyal to the staff - so till recently firing wasn't an option even considered.