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How come this country has never had a left-wing or liberal sort of government.

  • 02-08-2014 08:27AM
    #1
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭


    Since the state was formed we've been dominated for moist of the 20th century by Catholic conservative without question. We never had anything like the Democrats in America or Labor in Britain when it used to be left-wing.

    It's only in the last decade or so that with the fall of the Catholic church in Ireland that people have become more liberal & opened minded.

    Can anyone see a true left-wing government coming to power in Ireland?


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Comments

  • #2
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Can anyone see a true left-wing government coming to power in Ireland?
    Depends what a true left wing government looks like. Would a FF/LAB coalition be considered left wing?

    I suppose we could have a grand SF/LAB/PBP/Inds/Socialists coalition after the next election, but it would be hard to imagine it being stable.


  • #3
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Depends what a true left wing government looks like. Would a FF/LAB coalition be considered left wing?

    I suppose we could have a grand SF/LAB/PBP/Inds/Socialists coalition after the next election, but it would be hard to imagine it being stable.

    Ireland is very much a socialist country. Not sure how we got here without socialist parties ;)

    The church and religious views of the people had an influence, but that is changing and Ireland is becoming more liberal, but there will always be social protection.


  • #4
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ireland? Socialist? - You're having a laugh

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #5
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Ireland? Socialist? - You're having a laugh

    Excellent - enlighten me. What more would Ireland need to provide to be socialist in your view? Try to be as specific as possible.


  • #6
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Ireland is very much a socialist country.

    The Gini Coefficient ranking would indicate otherwise:



    http://www.publicpolicy.ie/income-inequality-ireland-2/


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  • #7
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Excellent - enlighten me. What more would Ireland need to provide to be socialist in your view? Try to be as specific as possible.

    I think that first of all the onus is on you to demonstrate why it is you think Ireland is a socialist country. For example, start with a definition of socialism, and demonstrate why you think Ireland meets definition.


  • #8
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Depends what a true left wing government looks like. Would a FF/LAB coalition be considered left wing?

    I suppose we could have a grand SF/LAB/PBP/Inds/Socialists coalition after the next election, but it would be hard to imagine it being stable.

    Wouldn't really think so, FF are center right or center at the most by European standards.

    I'd love to see SF/LAB/PBP./Ind/IRSP government & if doesn't work out we revert back to out Catholic conservatism governments.


  • #9
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Ireland is very much a socialist country. Not sure how we got here without socialist parties ;)

    The church and religious views of the people had an influence, but that is changing and Ireland is becoming more liberal, but there will always be social protection.

    This sounds like the Tea baggers in America who consider Obama a Marxist socialist revolutionary who "wants to try & deystroy our 250 year old outdated constitution"


  • #10
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Wouldn't really think so, FF are center right or center at the most by European standards.

    I'd love to see SF/LAB/PBP./Ind/IRSP government & if doesn't work out we revert back to out Catholic conservatism governments.
    Without including FF in the left(ish) column, I don't thing there is any prospect of a left wing government in the foreseeable future.

    Maybe in a few more election cycles SF will have grown and moderated and can form the anchor for a left wing coalition, but for now it would require too many disparate groups to come together in an environment where there are serious constraints (e.g. our bailout conditions) on the policies that we can implement.
    A coalition that needed SF/LAB/PBP./Ind/IRSP would last about a month.


  • #11
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Ireland is one of the oldest continuous democracies. Part of that is due to the social stability (aided by the Church) engendered by a relatively non-contentious political system which while having a level of bitterness over the civil war has at least embraced the democratic handover of power. Elements which might have agitated for leftist social change would need to overcome both a nationalist narrative that pervaded recent history and the push factor of emigration that have provided a pressure value in society. For instance, a great deal of social/left leaning elements in UK/US/Aus were of Irish origin.


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  • #12
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Wouldn't really think so, FF are center right or center at the most by European standards.

    I'd love to see SF/LAB/PBP./Ind/IRSP government & if doesn't work out we revert back to out Catholic conservatism governments.

    FF are a left wing party. They are the real labour party of Ireland.

    Ever wonder why we have a most generous welfare system? Why OAPs here are amongst the most well-off in the world? Why we have a big and very well paid public sector?

    Ask FF. ;)


  • #13
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    porsche959 wrote: »
    The Gini Coefficient ranking would indicate otherwise:



    http://www.publicpolicy.ie/income-inequality-ireland-2/

    If you think everyone should have equal wealth then you want communism. Grand if that's what you want.

    You can be socialist and look after the less well off in society and still allow others to prosper.
    porsche959 wrote: »
    I think that first of all the onus is on you to demonstrate why it is you think Ireland is a socialist country.

    So, you got nothing.


  • #14
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    This sounds like the Tea baggers in America who consider Obama a Marxist socialist revolutionary who "wants to try & deystroy our 250 year old outdated constitution"


    I'll ask again, what more do you want to make Ireland more socialist?

    So far there's a lot of heat but no light in this discussion.


  • #15
    Macavity.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Macavity.


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Ireland? Socialist? - You're having a laugh

    All you have to do is look at the horrific tax and welfare system in this country to realise we are quite socialist.


  • #16
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Macavity. wrote: »
    All you have to do is look at the horrific tax and welfare system in this country to realise we are quite socialist.

    It probably boils down to the definition of socialism.

    To most people we are of course socialist. Okay, we aren't socialist like the Latin American countries of Venezuela etc.

    Similarly with a political party. Any party that takes an economy from having a budget surplus to a deficit of over 20% of GDP can be considered a left wing party.


  • #17
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    smcgiff wrote: »
    If you think everyone should have equal wealth then you want communism. Grand if that's what you want.

    You can be socialist and look after the less well off in society and still allow others to prosper.



    So, you got nothing.


    Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    What you seem to be referring to is social democracy. You seem to be equating socialism with social democracy.


  • #18
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    smcgiff wrote: »
    So far there's a lot of heat but no light in this discussion.

    Physician, heal thyself.


  • #19
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    What you seem to be referring to is social democracy. You seem to be equating socialism with social democracy.

    HOW. DO. YOU. WANT. TO. MAKE. IRELAND. MORE. SOCIALIST?


  • #20
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Physician, heal thyself.

    I'm happy in my belief Ireland is socialist - not communist mind.


  • #21
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    smcgiff wrote: »
    HOW. DO. YOU. WANT. TO. MAKE. IRELAND. MORE. SOCIALIST?

    Me personally? Far from it I would go the other way. I don't know where you got the idea I was advocating socialism - I did not.

    What you don't seem to realise - or don't want to - is that definitions, the meanings of words are important before we can even have this debate.


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  • #22
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Rightwing wrote: »
    FF are a left wing party. They are the real labour party of Ireland.

    Ever wonder why we have a most generous welfare system? Why OAPs here are amongst the most well-off in the world? Why we have a big and very well paid public sector?

    Ask FF. ;)

    And don't forget social partnership.


  • #23
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Me personally? Far from it I would go the other way. I don't know where you got the idea I was advocating socialism - I did not.

    What you don't seem to realise - or don't want to - is that definitions, the meanings of words are important before we can even have this debate.

    Hah, Joeytheparrot just thanked your post, wonder if he'll leave it once he sees the above post.

    You want to change things to the right. Right from what - socialist? :p

    To debate you I need to know your starting point. How would class Ireland, if not Socialist. If you think Ireland is socialist you're probably in the wrong thread as the OP thinks we've never had socialist parties.


  • #24
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Hah, Joeytheparrot just thanked your post, wonder if he'll leave it once he sees the above post.

    You want to change things to the right. Right from what - socialist? :p


    To briefly summarise my position, I favour reducing taxes, reducing size of the state, reducing welfare (including corporate welfare, a point that is often missed).
    smcgiff wrote: »
    To debate you I need to know your starting point. How would class Ireland, if not Socialist. If you think Ireland is socialist you're probably in the wrong thread as the OP thinks we've never had socialist parties.

    I would classify Ireland as a clientelist social democracy. Not socialist under most definitions of the term.


  • #25
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    porsche959 wrote: »

    I would classify Ireland as a clientelist social democracy. Not socialist under most definitions of the term.

    That's the type of socialism I take it the OP is referring to - as he's referring to Labour in the UK.


  • #26
    OneEightSeven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭OneEightSeven


    smcgiff wrote: »
    HOW. DO. YOU. WANT. TO. MAKE. IRELAND. MORE. SOCIALIST?

    Socialism is when the means of production owned by the state and everyone on equal wages. Cuba is a socialist country. Many people conflate communism with socialism but communism doesn't even have wages. Commumism is where the community own the means of production.

    Ireland is a socialistic capitalist country.


  • #27
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    I think people need to separate the left/right split into economic and social categories.

    Economically speaking, Ireland could broadly be considered to be left wing.

    Socially speaking, Ireland could be broadly considered to be centre-right.


  • #28
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rightwing wrote: »
    FF are a left wing party. They are the real labour party of Ireland.

    Ever wonder why we have a most generous welfare system? Why OAPs here are amongst the most well-off in the world? Why we have a big and very well paid public sector?

    Ask FF. ;)

    I wouldn't call looking after your mates first and foremost left wing or Socialist.


  • #29
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I wouldn't call looking after your mates first and foremost left wing or Socialist.

    And what about looking after the unemployed, the OAPs, the public sector, what would you call that, right wing policy?


  • #30
    Nate--IRL--
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,238 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    Rightwing wrote: »
    ..........what would you call that?

    Populism.

    Nate


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  • #31
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Nate--IRL-- wrote: »
    Populism.

    Nate

    And by and large that equates to left wing policies.


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