Kia BMW

unkel

Looks like a Kia, drives like a Kia. A disgrace that it has a BMW badge imho. I've owned four BMWs myself, two with a V8 and two with a straight 6 cylinder engine. All proper petrol powered, rear wheel driven BMWs. All BMWs ever made were rear wheel drive until this one.

Or won't most buyers care, or even know that this is front wheel driven and based on a MINI?



2-series Active Tourer

visual

They won't care
it will be a new BMW with new reg plate and have a reasonable mpg and cost of ownership in sales brochures so all the boxes are ticked.

Have a 525i myself like the car but its RWD system makes it a little fun but not superior to FWD

2nd hand where more buyers are interested in the actual drive experience will probably not want a car thats like all the others FWD but more expensive to run and own

bazz26

Audi have successfully been selling similar type cars for years. The target market don't care about which wheels drive the car or how many cylinders the engine has, they see the premium badge as being more significant.

So why bother going to the extra expense of developing and building a rwd big engined SUV crossover type thing when a fwd small econobox will be accepted by it's owner just as much?

PaddyFagan

Wouldn't buy one myself, but I think it's the right decision for BMW AG - there was a quote from the CEO in 2009 that 80% of 1 series drivers didn't know the car was RWD, so it's been on the cards for some time....

From http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1043671_80-percent-of-bmw-1-series-owners-think-their-car-is-front-wheel-drive

Speaking to analysts following the release of BMW’s 2009 financial results last week, CEO Norbert Reithofer revealed that 80 percent of 1-series owners believe they are driving a front-wheel drive car.

Reithofer explained that he is not worried about adding a front-wheel drive model to BMW’s lineup, but he did admit that the survey results on the 1-series came as “quite a surprise” to the automaker.

Paddy

franer1970

"CEO Norbert Reithofer revealed that 80 percent of 1-series owners believe they are driving a front-wheel drive car."

Would 80% of them even know that cars came in RWD or FWD?
Tell them one front and one rear wheel drive the car and they'd probably believe you.

It was the same thing when the X5 was introduced in 1999 - a BMW off-roader! Sacrilege! We’ll get used to it.

keithclancy

unkel wrote: »

Looks like a Kia, drives like a Kia. A disgrace that it has a BMW badge imho. I've owned four BMWs myself, two with a V8 and two with a straight 6 cylinder engine. All proper petrol powered, rear wheel driven BMWs. All BMWs ever made were rear wheel drive until this one.

Or won't most buyers care, or even know that this is front wheel driven and based on a MINI?



2-series Active Tourer

Not everyone wants a BMW, so they made one for people that don't want one :pac:

franer1970

Right now someone on boards.kr is probably bemoaning the Kia K9.



A sleek rear wheel drive executive saloon with a 3.8L six cylinder engine - might as well just stick a BMW badge on it in then...

Zubeneschamali

unkel wrote: »

All BMWs ever made were rear wheel drive until this one.

Not even remotely true, they've been making 4 wheel drive cars and tractors for donkeys.

And the "Every real BMW is a 3 box RWD saloon!" crew bitched about those, too, and BMW laughed all the way to the bank.

BMJD

+



=

Frankie Lee

It would hardly have the reliability and warranty of a Kia though.

munchkin_utd

to be fair, its really a large mini sculpted to look like a BMW, so getting too angry about them killing the family tradition isnt really worth it. Its just extending the mini range (with a BMW badge)

My first reaction was that it was the most crazy thing they could do, a "people mover" that can hold only 4 people and not even 3 kids in the back in child seats, a practical car that really hasnt the largest boot, just all in all a crazy concept.
And calling it a 2 series is also just plain wrong.

but the more i think about it its just a slightly more practical equivalent of the 1 series, and in many ways just the BMW answer to the Merc B Klasse (or even golf plus), so maybe it'll find its niche.
And sure most folks only have 2 kids anyhow, so opting to cater for 2 kids comfortably rather than compromising with squeezing in 3 might be a calculated decision.

I can imagine a lot of folks with kids that I see driving mini or mini clubman or 1 series cars, possibly even folks with the X1, opting for the slightly more practical 2 series dynamic ultra super duper tourer (or whatever its called, that is not a coupe like the rest of the evenly numbered BMWs) when trading in.

PaddyFagan

munchkin_utd wrote: »

not even 3 kids in the back in child seats.

This though is really a mute point almost any small/mid sized car is the same, the number of cars that can take three child seats is tiny - just look at the regular threads on here of - just having a third child and need a car that can fit three kids... The notion that the majority of cars can take three kids in the back isn't true with modern child seats.

But I do agree in general people will buy them and BMW are in business to sell cars - equally the increasing EU rules about average emissions across the range from a brand may mean we see more of this.

Paddy

HandsomeDan

Frankie Lee wrote: »

It would hardly have the reliability and warranty of a Kia though.

A **** as this car is, at least you won't have to suffer the humiliation of being seen in a kia.

EazyD

HandsomeDan wrote: »

A **** as this car is, at least you won't have to suffer the humiliation of being seen in a kia.

I'd rather have the Kia tbh

HandsomeDan

Don't delude yourself. Average Kia is not a K9. Average Kia is rental car fodder - depression in car form.

wildefalcon

They have a 4x4 or soft roader that looks quite smart, though, seen them about and quite liked the styling.

_Kaiser_

The average Irish buyer (or buyer of such a car in general) won't give a toss about it being FWD. All that matters is the BMW badge, "cheap tax" and "fuel efficient"

BMW can get on-board with this or watch their market share dwindle.

I don't really see the fuss anyway. They've been trading on their name rather than the car for years as it is.

EazyD

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Don't delude yourself. Average Kia is not a K9. Average Kia is rental car fodder - depression in car form.

Delusion is buying a car solely based on the badge at the front.

Moneymaker

Chape tax and it will sell like hotcakes here.

keithclancy

Moneymaker wrote: »

Chape tax and it will sell like hotcakes here.

Also in Germany it will do great in the leasing market.

b318isp

I think there is a risk of all this divergence back-firing on BMW.

To me, they are moved their business model further towards making money rather than driver's cars. The consequence is signification dilution of their differentiation - exclusiveness and driving feedback. As they push further down market they erode their core strengths. Of course, their strategy of making money is working very well.

For a BMW fan, the kudos of owning a BMW is waning, and a number of models are vary ho-hum. They are building a very complex portfolio stuffed with niche models and difficult nomenclature - not a good manufacturing strategy, going forward.

Like the Mondeo, I think there is a risk that they may become a victim of their own success in the long term. The only saving grace is that they still make some fabulous upper end cars and generally have great engineering, which props up duller stuff.

Wossack

keep thinking all the stock photos of that 2-series are taken with a fish eye lense.. but nope, thats what it looks like

gimme the kia...

deandean

Most drivers of that new 2 Series won't have one iota of a clue - or give a damn - as to what wheels are driven.

Remember the video of the woman clearing snow from the front wheels of her 1-Series? LOL!

Alanstrainor

What a hideous car it is...ugh

I'm not against the move away from V8, I6 to be honest, they have to move with the times in terms of economy expectations and emissions. Even the FWD thing isn't ridiculous considering the target market of the car in question. But why oh why is it so god damn ugly. Horrendous looking yoke. Although I'm not a fan of the face of most new BMW's these days, saw a 141 3 series, with paddy spec and it looked awful.

Zubeneschamali

Alanstrainor wrote: »

What a hideous car it is...ugh

why oh why is it so god damn ugly.

It's a BMW.

Caliden

There are times I wished my 1 series was FWD.

Got stuck in a bloody pothole once that was filled with slippery leaves. Pulled in to let a car by on a narrow road and could not get out for love nor money. That was embarrassing.

HandsomeDan

F30 msport interior suits the car nicely.

H3llR4iser

Let's not confuse the "enthusiast" point of view with the average motorist: not only the "normal chap" will have no idea if a car is FWD or RWD, they'd also consider rear-wheel-driven cars to be "dangerous" becaude "Dan down the pub says so, and he knows cars!".

BMW fanatics will cry bloody murder, BMW will laugh all the way to the bank.

bazz26

HandsomeDan wrote: »

F30 msport interior suits the car nicely.

It would want to at €45k to €50k.

unkel

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I'm not against the move away from V8, I6 to be honest

Well I am sad about it. These glorious petrol engines have been with us for what, 100 years and soon will be gone forever except for the occasional Ferrari

And we'll all be driving 2 and 3 cylinder diesels with turbos. Or plug in electric cars. That's not progress imho. That's like going from a steak and chips or lobster dinner to eating beans on toast. Better for the environment. But better for man?

_Kaiser_

unkel wrote: »

Well I am sad about it. These glorious petrol engines have been with us for what, 100 years and soon will be gone forever except for the occasional Ferrari

And we'll all be driving 2 and 3 cylinder diesels with turbos. Or plug in electric cars. That's not progress imho. That's like going from a steak and chips or lobster dinner to eating beans on toast. Better for the environment. But better for man?

As an enthusiast I would agree, but for the vast majority of people cars are a tool. Most people don't know how they work, if they're FWD or RWD, how many cylinders are under the bonnet - as long as they get them from A to B and preferably as cheaply as possible.

With safety rules dictating form as well, as well as the drive for cost reductions, the distinction between individual brands is decreasing too - look at how the current Audi and BMW range is really just a copy/magnify/print job, or how that Kia above has very 5-like lines (IMO). Then you have parts and platform sharing further muddling things.

Soon the only real distinction WILL be the badge on the front and we'll all be driving cars like this from Demolition Man:

Toyotafanboi

unkel wrote: »

Well I am sad about it. These glorious petrol engines have been with us for what, 100 years and soon will be gone forever except for the occasional Ferrari

And we'll all be driving 2 and 3 cylinder diesels with turbos. Or plug in electric cars. That's not progress imho. That's like going from a steak and chips or lobster dinner to eating beans on toast. Better for the environment. But better for man?

that's very naive.

it's still progress. your grandchildren will possibly have never even heard of a petrol or diesel engine, nor will the ever lust for it nor will they miss it.

large capacity ICE cars simply have to go really. we have a finite resource on this planet in terms of oil reserves and isn't it only right to keep a hold of some for future generations. of course its better for man. maybe not for you, but people of the future. we are one of the first generations to have the potential to wreck the planet before our grandkid's arrive, so with great power comes great responsibility as they say and we have to tread carefully.

there's a theory on a lot of motoring forums that your engines cc or the amount of cylinders it has is directly proportional to the size of your balls. whereas really it's the size of your ignorance sometimes.

as time progresses there will be good tuning potentials for all these smaller and alternative fueled engines, if there is a demand for it, you can be sure someone will invent it and car enthusiasts will love it.

imo it's all about the fun of the drive, whether it be a v8 rwd or an 4 banger fwd setup.

are BMW's that great anyway really? if anything they are now coming more in line with what i always expected of them.

HandsomeDan

bazz26 wrote: »

It would want to at €45k to €50k.

True, they are very overpriced. Still make tasty second hand buys though.

Sobanek

@unkel, no worries, there's still some mad people in this world, who'll buy brand new I6 / V8 cars and we can get them second hand in 10-15 years time

Alanstrainor

Sobanek wrote: »

@unkel, no worries, there's still some mad people in this world, who'll buy brand new I6 / V8 cars and we can get them second hand in 10-15 years time

And don't get me wrong, I'll keep driving "mad" engined cars for as long as it makes sense for me. I've had my I6 for over 2 years now and have loved every second driving it.

JohnBoy26

HandsomeDan wrote: »

A **** as this car is, at least you won't have to suffer the humiliation of being seen in a kia.

A typical snobish post. What rock have you been under, It's 2014 not 1994. What's so humiliating about KIA these days? They now make decent high quality cars with long warranties. They are up there with all the long and well established brands now and are a far cry from the bargain basement kias of old.

You then choose an old photo of an old car from a completely different market place to back up your argument, a photo that's not representative of a current KIA.

This photo you posted is of a KIA spectra which was called the cerato here. The Cerato and spectra came out over a decade ago in 2003 and can't be compared to a brand new BMW, or any new car for that matter.

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Don't delude yourself. Average Kia is not a K9. Average Kia is rental car fodder - depression in car form.

listermint

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Let's not confuse the "enthusiast" point of view with the average motorist: not only the "normal chap" will have no idea if a car is FWD or RWD, they'd also consider rear-wheel-driven cars to be "dangerous" becaude "Dan down the pub says so, and he knows cars!".

BMW fanatics will cry bloody murder, BMW will laugh all the way to the bank.

Yes my father only buys Audis now, wont touch a BMW again because his E36 slid out a bit into the pillar of the garden in the snow.


Unsure how he feels on my M3 though :P

ofcork

BMW are gone like merc these days with niche cars,that 2 is similar to the b class.

munchkin_utd

b318isp wrote: »

I think there is a risk of all this divergence back-firing on BMW.

To me, they are moved their business model further towards making money rather than driver's cars. The consequence is signification dilution of their differentiation - exclusiveness and driving feedback. As they push further down market they erode their core strengths. Of course, their strategy of making money is working very well.
<snip>

From looking into bmw from outside, but knowing plenty working in there, it could be argued that their corporate culture values shareholder return and making even higher record profits over the actual product that they make.

One supplier had the phrase that it's a financial services and marketing company with an automotive division.

So indeed, their strategy of making money is working, for now, but there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes and cost cutting and squeezing suppliers that may blow up in their face.
It might take a few recalls costing hard cash before quality and the product becomes a more strategically important goal over simply making even more insanely high profits.

unkel

Sobanek wrote: »

@unkel, no worries, there's still some mad people in this world, who'll buy brand new I6 / V8 cars and we can get them second hand in 10-15 years time

I fear that won't be the case. How many V8 petrol cars were sold in this country this year? I reckon it is less than 1 in 10,000 of all cars sold

They'll be disappearing from our roads soon enough

colm_mcm

unkel wrote: »

I fear that won't be the case. How many V8 petrol cars were sold in this country this year? I reckon it is less than 1 in 10,000 of all cars sold

They'll be disappearing from our roads soon enough

No petrol 5 series this year. 85% of Irish 2014 Porsches are diesel.

Frankie Lee

At least there is no more diesel Lexus available.

Sobanek

unkel wrote: »

I fear that won't be the case. How many V8 petrol cars were sold in this country this year? I reckon it is less than 1 in 10,000 of all cars sold

They'll be disappearing from our roads soon enough

There's always the UK

Leonard Hofstadter

Sobanek wrote: »

There's always the UK

As a UK resident I can tell you there's shag all petrols sold once you go above the Golf class. Yes you'll see a relatively high number of petrol 3 series, and I have seen a petrol E-class and Volvo S60 as well, but it's rare. Small cars are quite popular in the UK, there's a lot more Fiesta and Ka sized cars than in Ireland, and most of these are petrol. Petrol is still popular in Golf sized cars (unlike in Ireland where it's all diesel) but there's no shortage of diesels in that class either. Even with the premium stuff, the petrol engines aren't all that exciting, a F30 3 series is barely ever more than a 320i these days. I did once see an F30 328i, but that's in over a year and I see F30s every day. That was fine in the days when a 320i and 328i had a silky smooth naturally aspirated straight 6, but as we know, those days have long since passed and it's only a four cylinder engine, the same as in a €10k Ford Ka.

Sure with the new Passat they're not even bothering with petrol power for the UK, as they say that only 1% of B7s sold in the UK were petrol. Several cars, such as the BMW X1 and X3 are diesel only, the Merc E-class only offers petrols with four cylinders, and that doesn't appeal to me either, if I'm prepared to put up with the higher running costs of a petrol then I want the refinement and power of six cylinders. If I was that bothered by fuel consumption I would be buying the diesel in the first place.

The company car market is big business in the UK, and there's just as many poverty spec 5 series, E-class etc in the UK as there is in Ireland now because of the CO2 based taxation system they have. Whereas with the older models there was a good chance that a 5 series would be something better than the poverty spec 520d, pretty much all the F10 5 series are 520ds these days, unfortunately.

Toyotafanboi

captainspeed wrote: »

That was fine in the days when a 320i and 328i had a silky smooth naturally aspirated straight 6, but as we know, those days have long since passed and it's only a four cylinder engine, the same as in a €10k Ford Ka.

if you're pulling that card isn't doesn't mitsubishi use a 4 cylinder in the evo x?

i don't really buy into petrol snobbery and i certainly don't understand cylinder quantity snobbery.

a car doesn't need a certain minimum number of cylinders to be fun or to generate enthusiasm.

ba_barabus

captainspeed wrote: »

As a UK resident I can tell you there's shag all petrols sold once you go above the Golf class.

All company cars after that really

unkel

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

that's very naive.

it's still progress. your grandchildren will possibly have never even heard of a petrol or diesel engine, nor will the ever lust for it nor will they miss it.

large capacity ICE cars simply have to go really. we have a finite resource on this planet in terms of oil reserves

You calling me naive while you're being that ignorant?

The club of Rome said over 40 years ago that we would have run out of fossil fuels by now. How wrong they were

There's more hydrocarbon resources available to us now than there have ever been since we started using them. Enough for hundreds of years to come (by which time we will have developed other sources of energy - there's no doubt about that).

Now I appreciate your attitude and that of most other Irish people buying Kias and Toyotas. That you only need a car to reliably go from A to B just like you only need a fridge to cool your food and drink and a washing machine to wash your clothes. Fair enough. Buy your Kia / Toyota so.

But this is the motors forum and given that name I would expect at least a few motors enthusiasts to be still on here. If you don't care about motors, why would you be around here and insult people that do care about motors?

ba_barabus

unkel wrote: »

You calling me naive while you're being that ignorant?

:P

Sobanek

Sure, but in Ireland there is only one 328i for sale, the rest is 316i.
You CAN buy a 2nd hand 335i in the UK, so while the smaller cars may be more popular, the 6 pots and V8s aren't dead yet.

I blame the government for this trend here, because of the 2008 CO2 tax instead of the previous engine size one. Hell! If there was no motor tax, people would probably still run around in V8s! In 2007 when my parents and I went to a Volvo dealership to buy our car, there was plenty of equivalent models with the T5 and 2.4i engines. Now they're ALL 1.6 Diesels. Sad times really.

ba_barabus

Sobanek wrote: »

I blame the government for this trend here

People think this is a new phenomenon. This has happened since forever in Ireland. We've always bough the cheapest model and a few nicer ones (just like every other market really)

Sobanek

ba_barabus wrote: »

People think this is a new phenomenon. This has happened since forever in Ireland. We've always bough the cheapest model and a few nicer ones (just like every other market really)

And now there's no nicer.

Big round of applause to the guy who bought an S500 this year.