N-plates for Novice Drivers - Legal?

mydiscworld

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-face-more-penalty-points-for-speeding-from-friday-1.1882534

The new category of ‘novice’ driver also comes into effect on Friday.

Those who receive a first full licence from that date will be considered as novice drivers for their first two years.

They will be required to display an N-plate during that time.

“Under the terms of the Act, Novices will face disqualification from driving for six months if they reach seven penalty points, as opposed to the current 12,” the Minister said.

Why should a newly qualified driver be singled out like this and have a lower penalty point threshold?

SeanW

I don't think these new regulations have any basis in logic.

Are there many cyclists among the civil servants in the Department of Transport?

mydiscworld

Novice drivers, like learners, will be subject to lower alcohol limits and
they may not act as accompanying drivers for learners while they are novice
drivers.

So you're fully qualified but can't help someone else learn?!!

veryangryman

mydiscworld wrote: »

So you're fully qualified but can't help someone else learn?!!

Qualified < Qualified and Experienced. I welcome this rule.

Exampe: You may be fully qualified but never have driven on ice in the 6 months or so since you started learning and got your license. 2 years of driving would likely make you experienced in this (and other rare) situations.

Pete_Cavan

No issue with the lower penalty point threshold but the N plate is ridiculous, in many cases these novice drivers will be the best drivers on the road and yet they are being degraded. It only gives experienced drivers a sense of superiority while they perform all their bad habits.

endacl

SeanW wrote: »

Are there many cyclists among the civil servants in the Department of Transport?

Always good to get the auld non sequiturs out of the way early!

bg07

mydiscworld wrote: »

So you're fully qualified but can't help someone else learn?!!

This is not new. Has been the case for years. Just another rule for people to be ignorant of/ignore and to not be enforced by the authorities. Similar to general attitude to the requirement to have an accompanying driver in the first place. We are great at coming up with rules upon rules and then only making at most a half-hearted attempt to abide by/ enforce them

L1011

mydiscworld wrote: »

Why should a newly qualified driver be singled out like this and have a lower penalty point threshold?

Its entirely based on legislation which was introduced, so why wouldn't it be legal?

Its rather ridiculous and arbitrary though - "ah, you've had a licence for two years so you must be experienced" rather than based on either logged mileage (like pilots have logged hours) or a further test.

veryangryman

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

No issue with the lower penalty point threshold but the N plate is ridiculous, in many cases these novice drivers will be the best drivers on the road and yet they are being degraded. It only gives experienced drivers a sense of superiority while they perform all their bad habits.

The sense of superiority is an unfortunate by-product. However, if i see an L guy in front of me, i tend to give him more leeway patience-wise than i would to (say) a non plated driver driving too slow/fast/muppity.

Applying the same principle to someone still finding their feet on the road is a good thing.

antoobrien

MYOB wrote: »

Its rather ridiculous and arbitrary though - "ah, you've had a licence for two years so you must be experienced" rather than based on either logged mileage (like pilots have logged hours) or a further test.

It seems to be loosely based on the approaches used in Australia e.g. the system used in New South Wales, which goes L -> P1 -> P2 -> full with restrictions reduced at each stage. The novice driver is roughly equivalent to the P2 used in NSW.

Theta

The already do this in several other countries, the IOM springs to mind having R plates.

The testing system is the real problem here, I would love if a Nordic style system was introduced, it can take two years of lessons to get your licence there.

irish_goat

Theta wrote: »

The already do this in several other countries, the IOM springs to mind having R plates.

They do it up north too.

Zambia

In Australia p platers are heavily over represented in collision stats.

The idea is to develop good road skills as second nature. A mobile phone offence here is 4 points so you are on a short leash

AugustusMinimus

From what I can tell, there are basically no new restrictions on drivers who are qualified 2 years or less that would require the new N sign to enforce. The N sign is just that, a sign to indicate that a driver is qualified 2 years of less.

I cannot fathom what this is supposed to achieve. The ads that the RSA have running point out the fact that it is for new drivers safety. How exactly. What do these signs do that improve the safety of a newly qualified motorist.

Absolutely pointless rubbish as usual.

SpaceTime

I think it's a good idea however, I think it should be extended to something like a "?" sticker for people who never actually took a driving test but have a full licence as a result of being quite old or having availed of an amnesty during the backlogs in the 1970s.

They're often the people who don't seem to know what road signs mean or how to use indicators, roundabouts, lanes etc.

antoobrien

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

From what I can tell, there are basically no new restrictions on drivers who are qualified 2 years or less that would require the new N sign to enforce. The N sign is just that, a sign to indicate that a driver is qualified 2 years of less.

True but then this is the way that all changes were introduced, they don't affect people that have existing full licenses.

It'll be interesting to see if they go the next logical steps to add testing to the renewal of the full license (e.g. minimum of the theory test).

superfurry1

veryangryman wrote: »

The sense of superiority is an unfortunate by-product. However, if i see an L guy in front of me, i tend to give him more leeway patience-wise than i would to (say) a non plated driver driving too slow/fast/muppity.

Applying the same principle to someone still finding their feet on the road is a good thing.

You seem to be the exception to the rule.
Unfortunately all i would see on the road is when somebody sees an L plate they try to get past even when its a small dangerous road, if anything this N-plate could cause more accidents as the N-plate driver will be on the road alot more than a practicing L-plate driver.

y0ssar1an22

The need for these plates means that newly qualified drivers are not actually fully road worthy. If they were, there would be no need for these N plates.
Why not make the driving test more rigorous, or have a few different tests?

SpaceTime

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

The need for these plates means that newly qualified drivers are not actually fully road worthy. If they were, there would be no need for these N plates.
Why not make the driving test more rigorous, or have a few different tests?

It's more about experience and learning judgement on the road. You can't really teach that, it's just about hours driving.

ardmacha

antoobrien wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see if they go the next logical steps to add testing to the renewal of the full license (e.g. minimum of the theory test).

This is a admirable idea and one that should have been introduced when they brought in the requirement to go to the NDLS centres.

How common are retests like this internationally?

bilbot79

This is totally normal in the uk

Alun

ardmacha wrote: »

How common are retests like this internationally?

I'm not aware of anywhere that does it, but could be wrong.

L1011

bilbot79 wrote: »

This is totally normal in the uk

NI only.

Victor

If any one is feeling particularly oppressed by this, realise that up north that such drivers were restricted to 45 mph, although that has now been repealed. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-18249137

Victor

SeanW wrote: »

Are there many cyclists among the civil servants in the Department of Transport?

On topic, constructive posts only please.

Moderator

guttenberg

Victor wrote: »

If any one is feeling particularly oppressed by this, realise that up north that such drivers were restricted to 45 mph, although that has now been repealed. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-18249137

That has been talked about for a few years, don't think anything has actually taken effect.

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/planned-changes-to-driver-rider-training-and-testing

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Time qualified doesn't make a better driver. Say for example I am going to Australia in January (I'm not but its a pretty common occurrence). I decide to do my test here before I go so when I come back I'll have the licence. Pass the test in October. I am then gone for 18 months and I come back and settle in Ireland. I've had my licence two years so don't need N plates but have less experience driving than some people on L plates may have.

Flem31

The entire system needs to be overhauled and to target newly qualified drivers and call it an improvement in road safety is a joke.
I think there should be mandatory retesting once every 10 years as once you past a test you can do what you like, and you only need to be a careful driver for 45 minutes once in a lifetime.

It would also create additional jobs and isn't that the buzz phrase from Enda......

ardmacha

Flem31 wrote: »

The entire system needs to be overhauled and to target newly qualified drivers and call it an improvement in road safety is a joke

It isn't a joke. It may not be the only thing to do, but it is sensible, this group have a very high accident rate.

GerardKeating

antoobrien wrote: »

True but then this is the way that all changes were introduced, they don't affect people that have existing full licenses.

It'll be interesting to see if they go the next logical steps to add testing to the renewal of the full license (e.g. minimum of the theory test).

Certainly, there should be a full retest to regain a licence after a ban or disqualification.

Also, most motorist (including me) have never done the theory test, we should be required to do the test eventually, perhaps staggered to avoid swamping the system.

And finally, those drivers whom have never done the test (either from the amnesty or because their licence predates the test) should be made do the test, against staggered to avoid overloading the system.

Zambia

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Time qualified doesn't make a better driver. Say for example I am going to Australia in January (I'm not but its a pretty common occurrence). I decide to do my test here before I go so when I come back I'll have the licence. Pass the test in October. I am then gone for 18 months and I come back and settle in Ireland. I've had my licence two years so don't need N plates but have less experience driving than some people on L plates may have.

You could also just take the bus for two years. Coming to Australia is a bit extreme. We have cars here to you know?

Is there an offence for not displaying the N plate?

paddyland

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

No issue with the lower penalty point threshold but the N plate is ridiculous, in many cases these novice drivers will be the best drivers on the road and yet they are being degraded. It only gives experienced drivers a sense of superiority while they perform all their bad habits.

On what planet could novice drivers possibly be the 'best drivers on the road?' Novice drivers cannot possibly have the experience or observation that only years and years of driving can bring. Or are you one of the 'passed the test, know everything' brigade?

Few novice drivers are going to carry these N plates anyway, and the very fact that they don't, will say everything about their attitude to driving and the law in general. As usual, the law will be ignored by the very types for whom the law has had to be brought in in the first place.

Vologda69

Zambia wrote: »

You could also just take the bus for two years. Coming to Australia is a bit extreme. We have cars here to you know?

Is there an offence for not displaying the N plate?

Two penalty points (same will apply to learners who neglect to display 'L' plates)

Zambia

paddyland wrote: »

On what planet could novice drivers possibly be the 'best drivers on the road?' Novice drivers cannot possibly have the experience or observation that only years and years of driving can bring. Or are you one of the 'passed the test, know everything' brigade?

Few novice drivers are going to carry these N plates anyway, and the very fact that they don't, will say everything about their attitude to driving and the law in general. As usual, the law will be ignored by the very types for whom the law has had to be brought in in the first place.

P platers carry them here as they lose three points if they are caught without them

Sam Russell

I think a theory test should be applied each time you get a new licence. A simple test of say 20 questions (including changes since the last licence) so people at least pay attention to the signs and laws. It would take a few minutes and since we now have a seperate setup for licences, it should be easy to implement.

An eye-sight test at the same time should also be carried out.

marmurr1916

How about a D-Plate for D**khead drivers? Would be a lot more useful.

murphaph

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think a theory test should be applied each time you get a new licence. A simple test of say 20 questions (including changes since the last licence) so people at least pay attention to the signs and laws. It would take a few minutes and since we now have a seperate setup for licences, it should be easy to implement.

An eye-sight test at the same time should also be carried out.

Sound enough ideas there. Should be some basic theory checked when renewing. The N plate idea is to be welcomed. It's just to let other drivers know to give N drivers a bit more leeway. It's not perfect as noted but what is? Logging actual driving hours would be horrendously expensive.

Rubberchikken

the sysytem is an ill-thoughtout joke.
when people who are obviously learning don't display L plates, have no experienced driver accompanying them, are going way beyond the sensible speed for an area etc.
after the hooha about experienced drivers having to be in a car with a learner, and people complaned about it, what was done about it? absolutely nothing constructive.

none of us are born knowing how to drive, so the impatience shown to L drivers is uncalled for.
i always give them extra space, and have buckets of patience, so they're driving doesn't bother me.

what does bother me is the laws and the law makers. someone is getting thing wrong in this country.

murphaph

"Hassling" a L or N driver should be a specific offence with a couple of points IMO. Everyone has to learn.

paddyland

murphaph wrote: »

"Hassling" a L or N driver should be a specific offence with a couple of points IMO. Everyone has to learn.

The vast majority of 'L' drivers are NOT learning. Teaching oneself to drive is not learning.

Besides which, it is an absolute scandal that billions of Euro are spent on new motorways, and then there is absolutely no requirement in law for any motorist in this country to learn how to drive on one.

Jayuu

Having an L or N plate on a car doesn't necessarily mean the current driver is a learner or novice. If a family share a car a younger member could be the learner or novice.

Sam Russell

Jayuu wrote: »

Having an L or N plate on a car doesn't necessarily mean the current driver is a learner or novice. If a family share a car a younger member could be the learner or novice.

If rthe Gardai paid proper attention to those displaying L plates but driving alone, then those with a full licence would make sure they were removed from the car before driving off. The vynal ones that stick to the inside of the screen are easy to put up and take down - a liitle water spray makes them stick.

Paco Rodriguez

ardmacha wrote: »

It isn't a joke. It may not be the only thing to do, but it is sensible, this group have a very high accident rate.

Link?

rotun

Jayuu wrote: »

Having an L or N plate on a car doesn't necessarily mean the current driver is a learner or novice. If a family share a car a younger member could be the learner or novice.

I got done for driving my wife's car with her L plates up..

Sheldons Brain

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

Link?

The marketplace, i.e. insurance rates reflects the accident rate of different age groups and driver experience levels.

Zambia

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

Link?

Oh it's been a known fact for many many years.

Do you have evidence otherwise?

L1011

rotun wrote: »

I got done for driving my wife's car with her L plates up..

Done for what offence?

rotun

MYOB wrote: »

Done for what offence?

Driving on the motorway with L plates up

L1011

rotun wrote: »

Driving on the motorway with L plates up

What was the actual offence on the fixed penalty notice?

rotun

Lol, no clue!

GerardKeating

rotun wrote: »

Driving on the motorway with L plates up

That's not actually an offence.

A full qualified driver could (in theory) drive with L plates on the motorway.

It would only be an offense if you were on a learners permit.