Older Diesel vehicles London surcharge

listermint

So there are plans in London to put a surcharge on older Diesel powered vehicles entering the city.

Is this demonstration of what we all know of the pollution from these vehicles is quite bad compared to petrol

Here in this country have being promoting diesel via our tax and fuel rates will this change?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/diesel-drivers-may-face-higher-costs-pollution-battle

Eric Cartman

I didnt know the charge was £11.50 , im surprised anyone drives there at all

challengemaster

Not happening til 2020.

And I've yet to see one linked peer-reviewed publication on these health dangers or "diesel associated health issues" they're referring to. They've just circle-jerk cited their own articles a lot.

Frankie Lee

Newer diesels still exceed the Euro 6 NOx emissions limits in real world driving even with the implementation of various technologies to reduce them.

Interesting Dutch report with findings available here.
https://www.tno.nl/content.cfm?context=thema&content=prop_publicatie&laag1=894&laag2=914&laag3=105&item_id=965&Taal=2

They should put a surcharge on all diesels in my .opinion

John_Rambo

Frankie Lee wrote: »

They should put a surcharge on all diesels in my .opinion

I'd imagine the motor tax will be bought back in line with petrol cars eventually. I think there might be a European turnaround from "deisel is better" to "petrol is actually very good" too!

gctest50

challengemaster wrote: »

Not happening til 2020.

And I've yet to see one linked peer-reviewed publication on these health dangers or "diesel associated health issues" they're referring to. They've just circle-jerk cited their own articles a lot.

The scientific evidence was reviewed thoroughly by the Working Group and overall it was concluded that there was sufficient evidence in humans for the carcinogenicity of diesel exhaust.

The Working Group found that diesel exhaust is a cause of lung cancer

http://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2012/pdfs/pr213_E.pdf

.

challengemaster

That's a press release. Close, but I'd like to see the actual data. More specifically I'd love to know how they're pinpointing diesel fumes as the causative agent.

John_Rambo

challengemaster wrote: »

That's a press release. Close, but I'd like to see the actual data

Experts in their field release these press releases so laypeople can understand them. Their extended findings would be heavy. I'm sure you can apply to see their data, graphs, mathematics and if you work in a similar area you would understand it.

If you don't you could just sift through it, frown, purse your lips and nod your head and pretend you understand it!

Tail Docker

challengemaster wrote: »

Not happening til 2020.

And I've yet to see one linked peer-reviewed publication on these health dangers or "diesel associated health issues" they're referring to. They've just circle-jerk cited their own articles a lot.

So, it's a case of 2020 vision?

Give it a while, and it will be a charge on yellow cars, then cars with 4 doors, then a wheel tax. London is rabidly anti-motorist. Much like everywhere else.

corktina

it's only a very small central area affected and rightly so. By 2020 there should be very few older vehicles to surcharge

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I didnt know the charge was £11.50 , im surprised anyone drives there at all

It means a very high proportion of lovely cars on the streets.

jimgoose

Smell a' the bastarding things is foul. But de chapetaxlike!!

101sean

There's already a London LEZ which is pretty much anywhere inside the M25 where a non EU3 diesel commercial vehicle will cost you £100 a day. I'm not surprised they will extend it to cars in the congestion charge area, no new tech needed, vehicle movement is already monitored at hundreds of points.

Cookie_Monster

challengemaster wrote: »

And I've yet to see one linked peer-reviewed publication on these health dangers or "diesel associated health issues" they're referring to. They've just circle-jerk cited their own articles a lot.

It's plain as day, you don't need a peer-reviewed publication for goodness sake. Stand behind any heavy diesel vehicle and you can see the smoke and particles spewed out. How can it not be bad for health.

That aside there's any number of them out there on DPM and it's adverse effects should you care to actually look. even the bottom of the wikipaedia pages provides several
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust

Frankie Lee

To be fair direct injection petrol engines are producing more particulate matter than diesels and indirect injection petrol engines.

listermint

Frankie Lee wrote: »

To be fair direct injection petrol engines are producing more particulate matter than diesels and indirect injection petrol engines.

What does that have to be fair about.

Particle type and make up is the important part. Not volume

dr.fuzzenstein

About time they got rid all those smelly buses.

challengemaster

John_Rambo wrote: »

Experts in their field release these press releases so laypeople can understand them. Their extended findings would be heavy. I'm sure you can apply to see their data, graphs, mathematics and if you work in a similar area you would understand it.

If you don't you could just sift through it, frown, purse your lips and nod your head and pretend you understand it!

True, press releases are aimed at the general public, but status-quo is that people publish papers first in peer reviewed medical/scientific journals to make sure they're not spouting crap.

Such as this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3915263/

Or this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440130/

I'll be honest, a lot of that seems very speculative, there's a lot of "estimate" used there, the links are dubious at best, and their p values are atrocious.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/types/lung/riskfactors/lung-cancer-risk-factors wrote:

An estimated 0.02% of lung cancers in Britain are linked to occupational exposure to diesel engine exhaust.

From the same link

An estimated 9% of lung cancers in the UK are linked to people eating less than 2-3 portions of fruit each day

Now, please, do tell me more about how diesel needs to be taxed.

Frankie Lee

listermint wrote: »

Particle type and make up is the important part. Not volume

I'd imagine the composition would be fairly similar and particulate matter is going to straight to the deepest part of the lungs unfiltered regardless.

John_Rambo

challengemaster wrote: »

Now, please, do tell me more about how diesel needs to be taxed.

Now, please tell me where I said diesel needs to be taxed?

Look, there was an initiative to get people buying new or almost new diesel cars right after the recession hit. People were splashing out or getting loans to buy 20k and 30k cars to save a few hundred euro every year!

It worked. People bought it. The motor industry was stimulated and the massive tax we pay on new cars boosted government revenue.

Now it's all calmed down. Everyone's driving cheap to tax deisel cars. The mindset has even changed, even older diesel cars without the tax breaks have more fashion appeal.

Do you honestly think their going to remain cheap to tax???

Thanks for the links proving that deisel engines are in fact unrefined pollutants that are more harmfull locally than petrol engines.

I know it's not popular what I'm saying, but try and read my post without thinking about your car investment.

dr.fuzzenstein

Time to buy an old Merc and run it on chip fat.

Leonard Hofstadter

Everyone (bar the devout diesel fanbois) knows that diesel engines are extremely bad for our health, their particulates are cancer causing. Now I'm not saying petrol engines are fantastic either, but they're a LOT cleaner than diesels, always have been and always will be (at least in Europe). Sure even the new "clean" Euro 6 diesels are so dirty they only match the standards for NOx that petrol engines had to get to for Euro 4, and there were Euro 4 petrol engines on sale in 2001! So, the new Euro 6 diesels are only where some petrol engines were 13 years ago (and where all of them had to be by 2005).

keithclancy

In Germany you're paying a 30 Euro fine instead of a 12.50 pound charge


I think technically from a legal perspective I cannot drive to work anymore :pac:

challengemaster

captainspeed wrote: »

but they're a LOT cleaner than diesels, always have been and always will be (at least in Europe).

Always have been? You're mighty quick to forget about leaded petrol.

keithclancy

captainspeed wrote: »

Everyone (bar the devout diesel fanbois) knows that diesel engines are extremely bad for our health, their particulates are cancer causing. Now I'm not saying petrol engines are fantastic either, but they're a LOT cleaner than diesels, always have been and always will be (at least in Europe). Sure even the new "clean" Euro 6 diesels are so dirty they only match the standards for NOx that petrol engines had to get to for Euro 4, and there were Euro 4 petrol engines on sale in 2001! So, the new Euro 6 diesels are only where some petrol engines were 13 years ago (and where all of them had to be by 2005).

It's hard to think about how my 7 year old Volvo Diesel is killing people when I see this driving past Scheveningen Beach

wonski

keithclancy wrote: »

It's hard to think about how my 7 year old Volvo Diesel is killing people when I see this driving past Scheveningen Beach

Only the small to mid sized diesels kill people. The big v12,v24 or whatever it is don't:D

listermint

keithclancy wrote: »

Id say if that puppy was sitting idle in city centre traffic, youd think twice :P

Caliden

Deleted User wrote: »

It means a very high proportion of lovely cars on the streets.

I've a friend who works just outsdie London and gets to work on a motorbike. He posts helmet cams from time to time and I think driving for a week in London car traffic would make me want to kill myself.

It's a car park.

listermint

Caliden wrote: »

I've a friend who works just outsdie London and gets to work on a motorbike. He posts helmet cams from time to time and I think driving for a week in London car traffic would make me want to kill myself.

It's a car park.

Yeah i remember trying to get out of london to make a ferry in wales (car purchase) was a nightmare. For london id have to get a bike tbh the stress would tear me up.

Tabnabs

keithclancy wrote: »

It's hard to think about how my 7 year old Volvo Diesel is killing people when I see this driving past Scheveningen Beach

How many trucks is that one ship replacing? Thousands and thousands!

There's a call for more coastal and inland shipping support, to take more diesel trucks off the road.

keithclancy

Tabnabs wrote: »

How many trucks is that one ship replacing? Thousands and thousands!

There's a call for more coastal and inland shipping support, to take more diesel trucks off the road.

I think it replaced 2 Skoda Octavias with DMF and Turbo Issues

Cleveland Hot Pocket

listermint wrote: »

Id say if that puppy was sitting idle in city centre traffic, youd think twice :P

Imagine the torque of that yoke..
Puts even a cummins/duramax truck engine to shame.

the_syco

How do the iconic red buses fare now, and will they all be scrapped and/or electrified by then?

listermint wrote: »

Id say if that puppy was sitting idle in city centre traffic, youd think twice :P

I'd be wondering how it got there :pac:

Bleh. Electrify the system?

dr.fuzzenstein

the_syco wrote: »

How do the iconic red buses fare now, and will they all be scrapped and/or electrified by then?


I'd be wondering how it got there :pac:

Bleh. Electrify the system?

Yeah, for a few hundred measly billion we could save a few pence on our bill.
Except we won't, I predict we will have to pay to install them and then electricity will go up.
5 bucks and my left nut.