Litter fine, but i didnt litter??

andreac

I recently received a fine in the post, and it was in relation to littering. To be exact, Section 3 (1) which reads as follows:

3.—(1) A person shall not—

(a) deposit anywhere, whether in a receptacle or not, any substance, material or thing for collection by or on behalf of a local authority, or

(b) (i) otherwise place or leave, anywhere, or

(ii) throw down, anywhere,

any substance, material or thing,

so as to create or tend to create litter in a public place or litter that is visible from a public place.

Now, i was reported by some randomer at a bus stop, they took my car reg and obviously reported me. What im annoyed about is that i didnt litter!!

I put a bag of rubbish i had in my car, into a bin on a footpath. Surely thats not classes as littering??
Have i anything to stand on here and can i plead my case? I have never littered in my life and would never do so either.

I just cant believe someone would go to the bother of reporting someone for putting a bag in a bin, it doesnt make sense? They tried to say it was household waste, but it wasnt? How would they even know that?

Im absolutely fuming that i would get a fine for €150 for putting rubbish in a bin.

Any help or advice would be very welcomed.

irish_goat

Their argument is probably that the bin is for small bits of litter, not bags of rubbish. If everyone did that the council would be out a small fortune.

Little CuChulainn

Using public bins for domestic refuse is an offence as far as i know.

andreac

irish_goat wrote: »

Their argument is probably that the bin is for small bits of litter, not bags of rubbish. If everyone did that the council would be out a small fortune.

I do understand that, but i was just passing a bin and thought i would put it in when i saw it, its not like i was regularly putting rubbish in it. In fact, i rarely have the need to use public bins.
I can understand if i was doing it constantly and someone decided to report me then, that's different.

andreac

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Using public bins for domestic refuse is an offence as far as i know.

But it wasnt domestic refuse? I had a bag of stuff that i cleaned out from my car?

andreac

The offence im being fined for is not what i did though?

Little CuChulainn

Are you sure some of the litter didn't fall out as you were shoving the bag in?

andreac

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Are you sure some of the litter didn't fall out as you were shoving the bag in?

100%. Im absolutely raging that someone has done this and reported me for something i know i havent done. If i had known it was an issue i would have just put it in the bin at home or at work.

As i said, i dont litter and never have. I own 3 dogs and always pick up after them out on walks and make sure i clean up after them.

andreac

Surely they need more proof than some randomer standing at a bus stop reporting someone to fine you? Sure if thats the case we could be reporting people for no reason and sending out fines left, right and centre.

RustyNut

Go to court and deny the offence Let the person who phoned in about you littering give evidence, if they can be arsed, you give yours.

userod

Ignore it. The burden of proof is on them. Even if you did litter , it's the complainants word against yours.

You have the right to be assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. A fine in the post is not a proof of guilt.

Ignore it, and if you get a summons for court, which you probably won't, go to court and tell the judge you never littered.

Most likely you'l never hear anymore about it though.

andreac

RustyNut wrote: »

Go to court and deny the offence Let the person who phoned in about you littering give evidence, if they can be arsed, you give yours.

If it did go to Court, and they weren't there to back it up, would that mean they couldn't prove it and i would get away with it?
If i dont pay the fine, and it goes to Court. Do the council look for this person to go and give evidence? I havent a clue how these things work as ive never been in trouble, ever.

If i was guilty i would hold my hand up and pay the fine but im fuming that someone has done this to me, i really am.

andreac

userod wrote: »

Ignore it. The burden of proof is on them. Even if you did litter , it's the complainants word against yours.

You have the right to be assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. A fine in the post is not a proof of guilt.

Ignore it, and if you get a summons for court, which you probably won't, go to court and tell the judge you never littered.

Most likely you'l never hear anymore about it though.

Thank you. Im just panicking as ive never had anything like this happen to me.

Thats why im thinking that surely they cant just decide to fine you on some random persons word. They gave the wrong description of my car on the letter, but had the correct reg.
Also, the letter that came to me was registered but they never took a signature. No one was there when the letter came, so the post man must have just left it in the letterbox.

userod

andreac wrote: »

If it did go to Court, and they weren't there to back it up, would that mean they couldn't prove it and i would get away with it?
If i dont pay the fine, and it goes to Court. Do the council look for this person to go and give evidence? I havent a clue how these things work as ive never been in trouble, ever.

If i was guilty i would hold my hand up and pay the fine but im fuming that someone has done this to me, i really am.

It will never go to court.

If it does make it to court by some strange miracle, you probably wouldn't even have to go, the judge will strike it out in your absence. You have nothing to prove.

endacl

andreac wrote: »

If it did go to Court, and they weren't there to back it up, would that mean they couldn't prove it and i would get away with it?

?

userod

andreac wrote: »

Thank you. Im just panicking as ive never had anything like this happen to me.

Thats why im thinking that surely they cant just decide to fine you on some random persons word. They gave the wrong description of my car on the letter, but had the correct reg.
Also, the letter that came to me was registered but they never took a signature. No one was there when the letter came, so the post man must have just left it in the letterbox.

Thats why the assumption of innocence exists . If the system was the other way around I'd have reported a few pricks I know for dumping rubbish and have a fine landed on them.

Doesn't matter anyway if you signed for the letter or not, its only the council. Ignore this attempted stealth tax. 95% you'l never hear anymore.

And dont mind these other clowns trying to worry you "did some stuff fall out the bag" etc. even if it did no judge would fine you for missing the bloody bin.

userod

endacl wrote: »

?

King Solomon here
:rolleyes:

andreac

endacl wrote: »

?

You know what i meant. As in i wouldnt have to pay the fine, for something i didnt do.

Caliden

You sure it was a randomer and not an off duty Garda?

andreac

I could totally understand if i just dumped a bag beside the bin or at the side of the road, but who goes to the trouble of doing something like this for putting a bag in a bin?? At least i used a bin to put my rubbish in.

andreac

Caliden wrote: »

You sure it was a randomer and not an off duty Garda?

The letter stated, that they were standing at the bus stop and gave details of my car which were wrong, apart from the registration, and that i dumped 2 bags of household waste which again was wrong, as it was one bag. They obviously assumed it was household waste.

It was actually in a clear bag, an old bag that i had from my bag of dog food which is a clear plastic so wasn't even a black bag that would look like a household waste bag.

endacl

andreac wrote: »

You know what i meant. As in i wouldnt have to pay the fine, for something i didnt do.

But you did do it. You said so yourself. The only mitigation you offered was 'I didn't know it was illegal'. That's fair enough, but tends to be widely rejected as a defence.

Its a cr4ppy situation to be in, and you have my sympathy. The fact is though that you are in this situation. And all because some busybody decided they disapproved of you putting litter in a bin. :rolleyes:

You are now in a legal process, and if I were you, I'd be careful about how I presented my facts. Using language such as 'get away with it' wouldn't be smiled on by even the most lenient judge. I'd be very wary of taking some of the advice you've received on here. I'd advise a 'very sorry, Judge. I had no idea and feel really bad about it' approach.

FWIW.

Onthe3rdDay

endacl wrote: »

But you did do it. You said so yourself. The only mitigation you offered was 'I didn't know it was illegal'. That's fair enough, but tends to be widely rejected as a defence.

Its a cr4ppy situation to be in, and you have my sympathy. The fact is though that you are in this situation. And all because some busybody decided they disapproved of you putting litter in a bin. :rolleyes:

You are now in a legal process, and if I were you, I'd be careful about how I presented my facts. Using language such as 'get away with it' wouldn't be smiled on by even the most lenient judge. I'd be very wary of taking some of the advice you've received on here. I'd advise a 'very sorry, Judge. I had no idea and feel really bad about it' approach.

FWIW.

But by this logic if I had a large bag of crisps and finished them and put three apple cores inside the crisp bag, and then put it into a bin I would be guilty, but putting the crisp bag in separately and the three apples cores individually there would be no case to answer....

userod

endacl wrote: »

But you did do it. You said so yourself. The only mitigation you offered was 'I didn't know it was illegal'. That's fair enough, but tends to be widely rejected as a defence.

Its a cr4ppy situation to be in, and you have my sympathy. The fact is though that you are in this situation. And all because some busybody decided they disapproved of you putting litter in a bin. :rolleyes:

You are now in a legal process, and if I were you, I'd be careful about how I presented my facts. Using language such as 'get away with it' wouldn't be smiled on by even the most lenient judge. I'd be very wary of taking some of the advice you've received on here. I'd advise a 'very sorry, Judge. I had no idea and feel really bad about it' approach.

FWIW.

This is complete nonsense.

OP, the judge can smile away all he likes, but until you see evidence to the contrary, you are an innocent man.

If you do see evidence to the contrary, then you can consider yourself to be in a 'legal process' and then you can start thinking about telling the judge you are "very sorry".

endacl

userod wrote: »

This is complete nonsense.

OP, the judge can smile away all he likes, but until you see evidence to the contrary, you are an innocent man.

If you do see evidence to the contrary, then you can consider yourself to be in a 'legal process' and then you can start thinking about telling the judge you are "very sorry".

^^

This'd be what I was talking about, OP.

You've received a fine. You can either (a) pay it, (b) challenge it, or (c) ignore it.

(a) is the quickest and easiest solution, although in your case, a distasteful one. (b) would be a pain in the hole, potentially more expensive than the fine, and may backfire on you. (c) will lead to (b). Avoid (c)!

Anyway, You've got good advice and bad advice here. Some information, and some opinion. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

Best of luck with it all. I'm out of this one....

TOMP

Maybe you were spotted, not by a randomer, but by a litter warden?

RustyNut

Caliden wrote: »

You sure it was a randomer and not an off duty Garda?

What difference would this make?

Fred Swanson

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billy few mates

I got one of those litter fine notices before but as I don't litter I just ignored it and threw it out the window....

stimpson

Write back and say the description of the car doesn't match yours and suggest they took down the reg incorrectly. They obviously found you by your reg.

I had one before based on my car reg and ended up paying as it was cheaper than a day off work to go to court.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

andreac

Thanks for all the replies. I've read the letter again and it says that the person that complained submitted a legal statement. What would that mean?

It also says "alleged littering offence".

Any thoughts?

andreac

. Double post

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Little CuChulainn

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It means they are more likely to go to court, if not by choice then by witness order.

userod

endacl wrote: »

^^

This'd be what I was talking about, OP.

You've received a fine. You can either (a) pay it, (b) challenge it, or (c) ignore it.

(a) is the quickest and easiest solution, although in your case, a distasteful one. (b) would be a pain in the hole, potentially more expensive than the fine, and may backfire on you. (c) will lead to (b). Avoid (c)!

Anyway, You've got good advice and bad advice here. Some information, and some opinion. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

Best of luck with it all. I'm out of this one....

Again, pure nonsense.

Advocating payment of a fine where no offence was committed is silly.

OP, this poster seems to be a litte confused and thinks you are assumed guilty until proven innocent. Actually the law is the other way around.

Even if it were to go to court (highly unlikely) and the witness were to testify (even more unlikely) and you testified with the story you have given here. It will just be your word against his which is never enough and the judge will strike it out.

Ignore it and forget about it, you'd be better off worrying about the weather. Nothing more will become of it.

Pro Hoc Vice

userod wrote: »

Again, pure nonsense.

Advocating payment of a fine where no offence was committed is silly.

OP, this poster seems to be a litte confused and thinks you are assumed guilty until proven innocent. Actually the law is the other way around.

Even if it were to go to court (highly unlikely) and the witness were to testify (even more unlikely) and you testified with the story you have given here. It will just be your word against his which is never enough and the judge will strike it out.

Ignore it and forget about it, you'd be better off worrying about the weather. Nothing more will become of it.

Not bad advice to pay fine it can often be the cheapest way and less stressful way out of an issue a pain yes but can sometimes work out best.

If the council turn up with a witness (who has made a statment, that 2 household rubbish bash deposited at roadside bin) saying a breach of the Act. Now you and I may fully believe the OP but a judge may not, once the council witness gives evidence if its good evidence then the only option open to the OP maybe to give evidence which is, yes in fact I deposited a small bag of waste from my car into the bin. If the judge has a doubt about the evidence then must dismiss but if the judge prefers beyond a doubt the councils evidence then must convict. I for one would never base my view on a posters statment of what happened, but on reading the statments of the witnesses.

notalitterbug

Hi Guys,

In somewhat of a similar predicament. Got a phone call from a lady at the county council today who started the conversation by stating she didn't have an address for me (as I was caught on the hop I stupidly obliged and gave her my address). She proceeded to tell me there was a receipt from an Indian takeaway found on the footpath with my name and phone number on it. It is my receipt but I certainly didn't throw it away, well not intentionally anyway; my hunch is that it fell from my pocket. She didn't confirm there would be a fine but said they would be in touch. They can't seriously be contemplating fining me €150 for unknowingly dropping a receipt, can they?
Any advice out there?

Onthe3rdDay

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Not bad advice to pay fine it can often be the cheapest way and less stressful way out of an issue a pain yes but can sometimes work out best.

If the council turn up with a witness (who has made a statment, that 2 household rubbish bash deposited at roadside bin) saying a breach of the Act. Now you and I may fully believe the OP but a judge may not, once the council witness gives evidence if its good evidence then the only option open to the OP maybe to give evidence which is, yes in fact I deposited a small bag of waste from my car into the bin. If the judge has a doubt about the evidence then must dismiss but if the judge prefers beyond a doubt the councils evidence then must convict. I for one would never base my view on a posters statment of what happened, but on reading the statments of the witnesses.

But how would the witness statement have any more legal standing than the person accused? obviously if the council had a second witness or some other evidence then the judge would have to take the witnesses statement as fact. Otherwise it's just a case of he says, she says....Or whatever gender the witness and the defendant are.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Pro Hoc Vice

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

But how would the witness statement have any more legal standing than the person accused? obviously if the council had a second witness or some other evidence then the judge would have to take the witnesses statement as fact. Otherwise it's just a case of he says, she says....Or whatever gender the witness and the defendant are.

I would give no advice until I read a witness statment because until I do so I have no idea of the evidence to be presented. Eve then until the witness actually gives evidence one has no idea of its quality. While in some cases it's he says she says and the judge gives the benifit, it can just as easily be the judge believes the evidence of the prosecutor and not the accused, simple. It may even be that the evidence of the witness is accepted by the accused and upon reading it it's discovered that the accused has committed an offence.

Visit and DC in the country and discover in many cases the only evidence against an accused is one independent person, and many times the accused is convicted.

Pro Hoc Vice

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I have rarely seen a case where a independent person has gone to the trouble of giving a statement that they do t turn up in court, that's what a summons is for.

dnphoto

notalitterbug wrote: »

Hi Guys,

In somewhat of a similar predicament. Got a phone call from a lady at the county council today who started the conversation by stating she didn't have an address for me (as I was caught on the hop I stupidly obliged and gave her my address). She proceeded to tell me there was a receipt from an Indian takeaway found on the footpath with my name and phone number on it. It is my receipt but I certainly didn't throw it away, well not intentionally anyway; my hunch is that it fell from my pocket. She didn't confirm there would be a fine but said they would be in touch. They can't seriously be contemplating fining me €150 for unknowingly dropping a receipt, can they?
Any advice out there?

good username!

mrsbyrne

OP I have 5 kids under 7. I went to Tramore on Saturday. We went to the drive through McDonalds on the way. Before we left Tramore we bought 7 small bottles of water, 7 bananas and 7 Petit Filous. Leaving Tramore beach we had 6 dirty nappies, baby wipes etc a copy of the Irish Sun and a punctured beach ball.
Can I squeeze that all into the next litter bin I see, or should I just take it home and put it in my own bin?

mfceiling

mrsbyrne wrote: »

OP I have 5 kids under 7. I went to Tramore on Saturday. We went to the drive through McDonalds on the way. Before we left Tramore we bought 7 small bottles of water, 7 bananas and 7 Petit Filous. Leaving Tramore beach we had 6 dirty nappies, baby wipes etc a copy of the Irish Sun and a punctured beach ball.
Can I squeeze that all into the next litter bin I see, or should I just take it home and put it in my own bin?

I would say it's up to you. Who in their right mind has to make a decision like this, with the thought process of "if i put my rubbish in this bin, will i end up in court"?

I clean out my van or the wife's car quite regulary. Sometimes if i'm at the local shop and i get out I might say to the daughters in the back - "does anyone have anything there for the bin"...i don't give 2 fcuks if it offends some oul busybody that i throw a few empty bottles, sweet wrappers in a "public" bin - sooner do that than be like some knacker in town throwing his crisp bag on the ground because the bin isn't within 2 foot of his radius.

Glenbhoy

mrsbyrne wrote: »

OP I have 5 kids under 7. I went to Tramore on Saturday. We went to the drive through McDonalds on the way. Before we left Tramore we bought 7 small bottles of water, 7 bananas and 7 Petit Filous. Leaving Tramore beach we had 6 dirty nappies, baby wipes etc a copy of the Irish Sun and a punctured beach ball.
Can I squeeze that all into the next litter bin I see, or should I just take it home and put it in my own bin?

Surely, the sensible thing to do in your situation would be to put most of your rubbish into the bins (which i presume are provided) at the beach in Tramore?

That is most likely why these bins are provided after all, or are there special rules governing the circumstances under which one may use these bins?

dnphoto

If i had one dirty nappy, i would of found the nearest bin and got rid of it, i wouldn't of waited till i had 6!!

mrsbyrne

mfceiling wrote: »

I would say it's up to you. Who in their right mind has to make a decision like this, with the thought process of "if i put my rubbish in this bin, will i end up in court"?

I clean out my van or the wife's car quite regulary. Sometimes if i'm at the local shop and i get out I might say to the daughters in the back - "does anyone have anything there for the bin"...i don't give 2 fcuks if it offends some oul busybody that i throw a few empty bottles, sweet wrappers in a "public" bin - sooner do that than be like some knacker in town throwing his crisp bag on the ground because the bin isn't within 2 foot of his radius.

That's interesting. So, technically, I don't need to pay for wheelie bins at my house at all. Every time I get into the car i could bring a bit of rubbish with me. Or a lot of rubbish. And share it out amongst all the litter bins in town. Hmmm.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Saucy McKetchup

mrsbyrne wrote: »

OP I have 5 kids under 7. I went to Tramore on Saturday. We went to the drive through McDonalds on the way. Before we left Tramore we bought 7 small bottles of water, 7 bananas and 7 Petit Filous. Leaving Tramore beach we had 6 dirty nappies, baby wipes etc a copy of the Irish Sun and a punctured beach ball.
Can I squeeze that all into the next litter bin I see, or should I just take it home and put it in my own bin?

Put the stuff you bought in Tramore in a local bin, bring the rest home and put it in your bin.
Stupid question.

mrsbyrne

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Surely, the sensible thing to do in your situation would be to put most of your rubbish into the bins (which i presume are provided) at the beach in Tramore?

That is most likely why these bins are provided after all, or are there special rules governing the circumstances under which one may use these bins?

But the bins are full to overflowing because people like the OP cleaned out their cars and put the rubbish in the litter bins because they couldn't possibly bring it home and put it in their own wheelie bin. Litter and dirt that the OP created.