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Media Confusion....again !

  • 27-07-2014 11:38am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/sickening-bus-trip-disabled-little-3917822

    Sad story,that,yet again,exposes the failure of our systems to actually engage with the term "PRIORITY"

    What the article avoids,is the REALITY that the Busdrivers concerned do NOT have any legal power to enforce the "PRIORITY".

    I can personally attest that attempts by a Busdriver to FORCE a Buggy user to fold & stow can,and often will be met with stiff resistance.

    It also should be noted that a child in a buggy,may well also be disabled,in a less obvious mannner or because the parent/s did not want to make it obvious...a Busdriver on any ordinary route simple does not have the time or opportunity to carry out investigations of every such occurrence.

    Rather than mouthing-off at supposed Dublin Bus indifference,the Newspaper really does need to contact the Authorities,in particular the Equality Commissioner,whose ruling turned the "Disability Access" term on it's head.

    An Operator is only bound to provide the access facility,dedicated space, and trained staff on it's applicable services,after that the Disabled are regarded as being "Equal" to everybody else....currently That's the Law as outlined by the Equality Commissioner's ruling.

    Those who have issue with it really do need to get to the seat of the problem...GOVERNMENT. :eek:

    Sloppy,Ill-informed populist reporting from the Irish Mirror which,if it wanted to,could have published a hard hitting expose of the nonsense that currently exists on the Statute Books !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    Tabloid-type papers are only about confusion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Is a wheelchair supposed to be considered more important than a pram or buggy? If so, why?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    A wheelchair user might find it difficult to fold it up and put it in the rack and take a seat.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    A wheelchair user might find it difficult to fold it up and put it in the rack and take a seat.

    The presumption that the person in or pushing a pram is fully able to do such is a poor starting point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,574 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    No Pants wrote: »
    Is a wheelchair supposed to be considered more important than a pram or buggy?
    Not more important. However, wheelchair users are given priority over pram / buggy users.
    If so, why?
    Someone using a wheelchair usually has no choice. A child in a pram or buggy can usually be held in a parent's arms.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    No Pants wrote: »
    Is a wheelchair supposed to be considered more important than a pram or buggy? If so, why?

    It's not really about that....

    It is about the very real limitations which the Real World imposes upon what is possible on mainstream Public Transport.

    The suggestion that every wheelchair bound person can enjoy priority access to every Bus is unsustainable,yet that is exactly what articles such as the Mirror's appears to pursue.

    We can certainly specify vehicles which can safely cater for multiple wheelchairs,along with several buggies simultaneously...however such a vehicle will have a reduced capability to cater for those who,whilst not disabled,are of reduced mobility...If we want to do this,then it will COST,and the question is WHO will pay ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    monument wrote: »
    The presumption that the person in or pushing a pram is fully able to do such is a poor starting point.

    Not at all. A wheelchair-bound person would not necessarily have a helper with him/her whereas a buggy passenger always would, thus in most cases it would be possible to fold a buggy whereas in nearly no cases would the same be possible with a wheelchair.

    If a driver politely requests that a buggy is folded and the pusher genuinely tells him it isn't possible, then that's the end of the matter. The fact is most pushers should be able to comply,but it's possibly too much bother and the disabled person who has no such choice is left waiting at the stop

    This can only be solved by making the provision wheelchair use only or insisting that all buggies are folded. A lose-lose situation, brought about by intransigence


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    In this day of apps and social integration a simple wheelchair booking app would be fairly easy to do (though if you look at the leap mess you might disagree).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    corktina wrote: »
    This can only be solved by making the provision wheelchair use only or insisting that all buggies are folded. A lose-lose situation, brought about by intransigence

    Poorly thought-out legislation,drafted equally poorly by those with little direct experience of how to operate within these requirements.

    It has to be borne in mind that,initally,the widespread interpretation of the Equal Status Act 2000's provisions regarding Disability Access was that it conferred an actual right of access to the Disabled Facility.

    It was only the Equality Commissioners ruling in 2011 (?) which threw the situation into chaos.

    Up until then Busdrivers were confident that they had the legal power to compel a Buggy Pusher to comply with a fold & stow request and to require them to leave the bus should they refuse.

    It came as a MAJOR shock (to employers,empoyees AND disabled folk alike) to learn that no such Legal power exists.

    The Legal Situation currently is that a passenger occupying the Wheeelchair Space in advance of any other passenger seeking to avail of it cannot be required to surrender it....requested,yes...and refusal of that request,ends the matter-Full Stop.

    The companies and their staff cannot act illegally in this matter,no matter what group is involved,be they wheelchair or buggy users...The hint is in the use of the term EQUAL.

    It is a mess,but to date,there is no great rush to put matters to rights.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    one man's equality is another's left at the stop in the rain.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    corktina wrote: »
    one man's equality is another's left at the stop in the rain.

    For sure.....I'm sure there's a perfect world out there somewhere where it never rains...(Southern California perhaps...?) but in the meantime,bring an umbrella ?

    Back in the late 1990's when Low Floor vehicles were still being tentatively spoken of,an excercise was undertaken to compare the costs to the company of going down the LF road versus developing a programme whereby disabled persons would register and be catered for by a dedicated Taxi/Hackney service.

    The dedicated personal service was substantially cheaper than tooling up for 100% LF operation,however the dedicated service was thought to be politically unacceptable and was discarded as an option.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,099 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    corktina wrote: »
    Not at all. A wheelchair-bound person would not necessarily have a helper with him/her whereas a buggy passenger always would, thus in most cases it would be possible to fold a buggy whereas in nearly no cases would the same be possible with a wheelchair.

    What magical person is this who always accompanies a person with a buggy? You mean the child that's in it, as I see more people pushing buggies on their own that unaccompanied wheelchair users. It's not that easy on a moving bus to hold a baby and fold a buggy, some of the modern ones don't even fold down that much smaller than open anyway. Then you've got the baby/child, the changing bag etc to hold as these don't fit into folded buggies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    monument wrote: »
    The presumption that the person in or pushing a pram is fully able to do such is a poor starting point.

    I wouldnt expect the person in the pram to be able to fold it up Monument.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    I wouldnt expect the person in the pram to be able to fold it up Monument.

    Unless it's rag week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Unless it's rag week.

    Ive had many a week ruined by that :).


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    corktina wrote: »
    Not at all. A wheelchair-bound person would not necessarily have a helper with him/her whereas a buggy passenger always would, thus in most cases it would be possible to fold a buggy whereas in nearly no cases would the same be possible with a wheelchair.

    Not at all what?

    Your reply taking about users generally being able to fold buggys bears no relevance to what I said about people presuming things about buggy users.
    corktina wrote: »
    This can only be solved by making the provision wheelchair use only or insisting that all buggies are folded. A lose-lose situation, brought about by intransigence

    Decent provision of public transport -- including but not limited to BRT and Luas with higher frequency and expanded and improved Dart services -- seems like a far better solution.

    In the case of people with any access issues who need to get places quicky sometimes the best solution is more individualised solution -- such as free or subsidised taxi or taxi like pick ups.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    monument wrote: »
    Not at all what?

    Your reply taking about users generally being able to fold buggys bears no relevance to what I said about people presuming things about buggy users.



    Decent provision of public transport -- including but not limited to BRT and Luas with higher frequency and expanded and improved Dart services -- seems like a far better solution.

    In the case of people with any access issues who need to get places quicky sometimes the best solution is more individualised solution -- such as free or subsidised taxi or taxi like pick ups.

    Why free?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,574 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    corktina wrote: »
    This can only be solved by making the provision wheelchair use only or insisting that all buggies are folded. A lose-lose situation, brought about by intransigence
    Well, actually, the recent bus purchase has separate wheelchair and buggy spaces.
    In this day of apps and social integration a simple wheelchair booking app would be fairly easy to do (though if you look at the leap mess you might disagree).
    Not reservations, but the NTA journey planner will have a step-free travel option added.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,099 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Why free?

    Because it'd be cheaper to provide a car from A to B for a person who requires it than take up valuable space on a bus
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The dedicated personal service was substantially cheaper than tooling up for 100% LF operation,however the dedicated service was thought to be politically unacceptable and was discarded as an option.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    For sure.....I'm sure there's a perfect world out there somewhere where it never rains...(Southern California perhaps...?) but in the meantime,bring an umbrella ?

    Back in the late 1990's when Low Floor vehicles were still being tentatively spoken of,an excercise was undertaken to compare the costs to the company of going down the LF road versus developing a programme whereby disabled persons would register and be catered for by a dedicated Taxi/Hackney service.

    The dedicated personal service was substantially cheaper than tooling up for 100% LF operation,however the dedicated service was thought to be politically unacceptable and was discarded as an option.

    I don't doubt or dispute this at all but when we take the times into the equation we see that back then there were far fewer wheelchair passengers than there are now so providing taxis was going to be cheaper but for how long? It was only with the provision of low floor buses that many people who previously used a car took to using the bus, these people would have stayed with their cars if the alternative was having to ring or book taxis possibly hours or even days before travel as is the case still with many train journeys.

    The figures are from a time when changes were happening in the general provision of services for the disabled and when wheelchair users were seen as haingn as much right as you or I to access public transport.

    This low floor idea works well on city buses but sadly is not very practical on other coaches where wheelchair lifts are used but where restrictions on the places they can be used means they are no good for the majority of wheelchair passengers. Also a low floor wheelchair ramp will cost only a small fraction of what it costs to provide a wheelchair lift on a coach and the ramp can be used by far more wheelchair users as it will have a much higher weight limit than the lifts.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    corktina wrote: »
    This can only be solved by making the provision wheelchair use only or insisting that all buggies are folded. A lose-lose situation, brought about by intransigence

    First off, I've a slight bias on this regards, buggy user with a 6 month old child. So anything to do with taking it down and pulling it back up is going to be one hell of a juggling act, but to be honest, I agree with the sentiment behind this. Being a bus user from a time before you could just roll on with a buggy, I see what we've got available now more so as a convenience than something I need. My girlfriend is of the same opinion.
    corktina wrote: »
    Not at all. A wheelchair-bound person would not necessarily have a helper with him/her whereas a buggy passenger always would, thus in most cases it would be possible to fold a buggy whereas in nearly no cases would the same be possible with a wheelchair.

    Unfortunately, this is a case of "it's easier to say than do." For the most part I generally travel as light as possible with the kid when using the bus. But a lot of people will make use of the basket for shopping, or if they've been up to visit friends/family may have received gifts. This is what I meant by juggling earlier. If there's only one person with the child, who's too young or hasn't fully mastered the act of standing, it's going to be hard to pick up stuff from a basket, hold the kid and fold the buggy. With buggies themselves usually having a catch mechanism meaning both hands have to be used to fold it over.

    Again, I agree with your initial sentiment, it's just some scenarios can make it really difficult when there's only one person travelling with the child and this seems to be the basis behind the thinking of "First come first served."

    There is a very limited amount of people I've seen who would be more of a "wont fold the buggy," but they've been very few and fare between and was genuinely when it came to arguing about another buggy user being on the bus already.

    There's only been one time I saw someone left behind in a wheelchair due to a buggy being on, the person with the buggy didn't notice until after the bus pulled from the stop. It seemed she would have had no issue with taking it down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    It's clear to me that a buggy user often has a choice whereas a wheelchair user doesn't. Some buggy users inevitably will choose not to exercise that choice to the detriment of another person.

    Good to see separate designated spaces being provided


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    First off, I've a slight bias on this regards, buggy user with a 6 month old child. So anything to do with taking it down and pulling it back up is going to be one hell of a juggling act, but to be honest, I agree with the sentiment behind this. Being a bus user from a time before you could just roll on with a buggy, I see what we've got available now more so as a convenience than something I need. My girlfriend is of the same opinion.

    Unfortunately, this is a case of "it's easier to say than do." For the most part I generally travel as light as possible with the kid when using the bus. But a lot of people will make use of the basket for shopping, or if they've been up to visit friends/family may have received gifts. This is what I meant by juggling earlier. If there's only one person with the child, who's too young or hasn't fully mastered the act of standing, it's going to be hard to pick up stuff from a basket, hold the kid and fold the buggy. With buggies themselves usually having a catch mechanism meaning both hands have to be used to fold it over.

    Again, I agree with your initial sentiment, it's just some scenarios can make it really difficult when there's only one person travelling with the child and this seems to be the basis behind the thinking of "First come first served."

    There is a very limited amount of people I've seen who would be more of a "wont fold the buggy," but they've been very few and far between and was genuinely when it came to arguing about another buggy user being on the bus already.

    There's only been one time I saw someone left behind in a wheelchair due to a buggy being on, the person with the buggy didn't notice until after the bus pulled from the stop. It seemed she would have had no issue with taking it down
    .

    Excellent post,particularly the part about travelling light with Junior.

    However,due to my daily experience,I would have to disagree somewhat with the last two para's,but that can be explained by the nature of my job.

    Additionally,some route's are far more suceptible to such exchanges,not helped by some Drivers who,with the best of intentions, bend the rules a little to facilitate the customer.

    The "Single Occupied Buggy" rule is just about the only truly unambiguous rule a Driver can refer to and is based solely upon the design configuration of the vehicle.

    Lets be clear on it,IF the Company tells me to carry 100 occupied buggies,then that's what I shall carry.

    Currently,the LF vehicles we operate are designed to facilitate the Safe Carriage of a standard wheelchair,appropriately positioned and secured....the safe carriage of a single ACCOMPANIED Occupied Baby Buggy in the same location is,as dravokivich says,a convienence.

    My experiences each day,confirm to me,that a significant number of people remain convinced of their absolute right to bring their occupied buggy onto every Bus,no matter what.

    It's not possible to make that happen.

    Personally,I would like to see each bus fitted with a hi-viz "WHEELCHAIR SPACE OCCUPIED" sign,perhaps incorporated into the Destination Display,which might allow a compliant Buggy Pusher a small window of opportunity to,at least be ready to fold.

    What usually occurs,is that when asked to fold,that person boards the bus anyway,then makes a matinee performance of folding the buggy in the gangway,fully expecting the Busdriver to continue the journey.

    THIS is absolute unsafe lunacy,but I have witnessed Busdrivers doing it...which is why I try to ensure that ALL folding is carried out On The Kerbside...a moving Bus is NOT a safe location to be attempting to operate buggy folding mechanisms,yet so many people will blithely attempt it,but will equally cry "Driver Negligence" should they injure themselves or their infant charge during the process.

    I would also see a significant business opportunity here for collaboration between Buggy Manufacturers/Bus Bodymakers/Major Retailers/Bus Operators to get together and agree a standard design for Bus Borne Buggies and subsidize their availability...perhaps by giving FREE Ramblers with each unit.

    Bear in mind that the current Wheelchair Space,is specifically designed to cater for a specific type of wheelchair and is laid out to specific design parameters.

    Rightly or Wrongly,I do not see this as a Buggy vs Wheelchair contest at all,or an Able Bodied vs Disabled situation,rather it is yet another example of a society in which Rules & Regulations,even if enacted in the interests of Public Safety,are regarded as for everybody else EXCEPT me :eek:.

    Sort that one out,and Problem Solved-Tickety Boo :D


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    corktina wrote: »
    It's clear to me that a buggy user often has a choice whereas a wheelchair user doesn't. Some buggy users inevitably will choose not to exercise that choice to the detriment of another person.

    Good to see separate designated spaces being provided

    Hmmmm....seperate alright,but the same rules apply...IF both spaces are occupied by Buggies,the request & hope rule still applies...a polite (or otherwise) refusal reverts us to Plan A.:o

    A small alteration in the wording of the Leglislation...the inclusion of the term "A person in charge of a Buggy/Pushchair/Pram,MUST vacate the designated Space upon request of an Authorised Person"....that,or similar,is all it would take to impose order upon the current chaos.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭rx8


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    A small alteration in the wording of the Leglislation...the inclusion of the term "A person in charge of a Buggy/Pushchair/Pram,MUST vacate the designated Space upon request of an Authorised Person"....that,or similar,is all it would take to impose order upon the current chaos.

    It's all well and good saying that the legislation needs to be changed/corrected/adjusted, but no matter what way it is worded some group or other will still say that they are being discriminated against.

    Personally I think that as a driver, I should be allowed/obliged to inform a passenger boarding with a buggy, that if the wheelchair space is required at a later time, then they MUST vacate the space to allow the wheelchair to board.
    I have recently had a situation where I was handed a letter of complaint from a wheelchair passenger about the driver of the bus ahead of me who couldn't get the buggies to budge and who didn't understand that he didn't have priority over the buggies that were occupying the wheelchair space.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    the only solution really seems to be for spaces to be designated "disabled only" in the way that parking spaces are. Noone suggest they are discriminatory after all, or that they may be used by others if there is no disabled driver on the horizon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    corktina wrote: »
    It's clear to me that a buggy user often has a choice whereas a wheelchair user doesn't. Some buggy users inevitably will choose not to exercise that choice to the detriment of another person.

    Good to see separate designated spaces being provided

    Afaik the new buses have two wheelchair spaces which can both be used for 2 unfolded buggys each but that the spaces are not designated for wheelchair in space 1 and buggys in space 2.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 756 ✭✭✭liger


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Personally,I would like to see each bus fitted with a hi-viz "WHEELCHAIR SPACE OCCUPIED" sign,perhaps incorporated into the Destination Display,which might allow a compliant Buggy Pusher a small window of opportunity to,at least be ready to fold.

    How often do passengers pay attention to the display anyway?


    Wasn't the rule a few years back that if there was a buggy in the Wc space the driver could insist the space be vacated until one time a lady was told to fold the pram to allow Wc onto the bus or get off, Turned out the child had a medical condition and sued for the embarrasment so 10 - 20k later the first come first served rule was in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭rx8


    It's not a "first come-first served" rule.... just really a clarification that everybody has to be treated the same, whether you have a disability or not.

    For years and years people have been campaigning for equal rights and to be treated the same...well now that we're doing that, we still can't satisfy everybody. Invariably it's the Bus driver who gets the blame from the disgruntled party, but it really is a no-win situation.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    corktina wrote: »
    the only solution really seems to be for spaces to be designated "disabled only" in the way that parking spaces are.

    Yes, that's a great idea. Let's drive more and more people away from the public transport system!

    Fantastic idea.
    corktina wrote: »
    Noone suggest they are discriminatory after all, or that they may be used by others if there is no disabled driver on the horizon

    Maybe you want all bus users with access issues -- prams or wheelchairs -- to apply for a disable pass to use the space?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Afaik the new buses have two wheelchair spaces which can both be used for 2 unfolded buggys each but that the spaces are not designated for wheelchair in space 1 and buggys in space 2.

    No Foggy,thats not the case.

    The later GT models have a second space which can accept an occupied buggy,however this is NOT a designated Wheelchair Space.

    These vehicles,and afaik,the next series of SG class vehicles,still have only 1 Designated Wheelchair space,now highlighted by the Blue Floor and Wheelchair symbol in an attempt to reinforce the message.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Another issue is the size of some modern buggies. Some would give a shopping trolley a run for its money...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    monument wrote: »
    Yes, that's a great idea. Let's drive more and more people away from the public transport system!

    Fantastic idea.



    Maybe you want all bus users with access issues -- prams or wheelchairs -- to apply for a disable pass to use the space?

    what's with the sarcasm? My opinions differ from yours, that's life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Another issue is the size of some modern buggies. Some would give a shopping trolley a run for its money...

    This IS becoming a serious issue,often now compounded by very large TWIN buggies,for which no protocol exists.

    At some point,the people in charge of the GREAT IDEA Dept will have to come down from their Mount Olympus and actually take a sneaky look at what is happening on a daily basis.

    There IS a limit to the size of contrivance which can safely be carried on MAINSTREAM Public Transport...common sense and public safety,not to mention potential liability issues SHOULD be guiding the "People in Charge",but that appears no to be the case.

    It's worth noting,for example,that a person intending to bring a Mobility Scooter onto a Dublin Bus,must first secure a Permit from Head Office.

    The reason for this,again based upon commonsense,is to allow the company to verify the size,weight and dimensions of the Mobility Scooter,as they are not covered by the Standard Wheelchair Guidelines for which the Wheelchair Space is configured.

    If somebody does not accept some regulatory responsibility soon,the only alternative is to remove ALL lower saloon seating and dedicate the resultant space to any and all wheeled vehicles on a free-for-all basis??


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    There IS a limit to the size of contrivance which can safely be carried on MAINSTREAM Public Transport...

    Limits of our current fairly poorly ranked system.

    It's one of the many reasons why a mix of decent BRT, expanded Luas and expanded and improved Dart would be so much more of an improvement -- the new mainstream if you will.

    AlekSmart wrote: »
    If somebody does not accept some regulatory responsibility soon,the only alternative is to remove ALL lower saloon seating and dedicate the resultant space to any and all wheeled vehicles on a free-for-all basis??

    Hyperbole much?

    corktina wrote: »
    what's with the sarcasm? My opinions differ from yours, that's life.

    Any sarcasm is perceived because the questions I was forced to asks and the things I was forced to say seem daft. If it's sarcasm, it's reflective sarcasm.

    A permit system for disable users would be needed for your idea to be workable but such a system would be daftness due to its impracticality.

    And making things harder for families to use public transport is counter to the goals transport policy.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    monument wrote: »
    Limits of our current fairly poorly ranked system.

    It's one of the many reasons why a mix of decent BRT, expanded Luas and expanded and improved Dart would be so much more of an improvement -- the new mainstream if you will.




    Hyperbole much?




    Any sarcasm is perceived because the questions I was forced to asks and the things I was forced to say seem daft. If it's sarcasm, it's reflective sarcasm.

    A permit system for disable users would be needed for your idea to be workable but such a system would be daftness due to its impracticality.

    And making things harder for families to use public transport is counter to the goals transport policy.


    But we already have a permit system, it is called the free travel scheme which until recently when some genius decided to make them all red passes easily distinguished the abled from the disabled.

    The problem is that you are making it easier for one group (ie people with children in buggies) to the detriment of another group who rarely have any other option (ie those in wheelchairs). We all know it is difficult to get around with a pram or buggy, but in general not as hard as it is to get around in a wheelchair and in general, with some effort people can fold and unfold buggies but not so for people with wheelchairs.

    You would think that it would be rare for someone to sit back and refuse to fold a buggy out of pure ignorance rather than need, but it isn't and some areas of the city are much worse for it than others. Same when it comes to the amount of spaces, at times of the day (eg school drop off or collection ) you could fill certain routes with just buggy spaces and you still wouldn't have enough.


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