Pit versus bales

adne

Cost of making bales seems to be creeping up every year.
It has got me thinking about changing to a pit.
I dont have a silage slab but thinking the repayment of putting one in could be as little as 5 years.

Whats lads thoughts on pit versus bales.

simx

adne wrote: »

Cost of making bales seems to be creeping up every year.
It has got me thinking about changing to a pit.
I dont have a silage slab but thinking the repayment of putting one in could be as little as 5 years.

Whats lads thoughts on pit versus bales.

Pit is the job IMO, ya might get to make a bit better silage with bales at times but the cost of baling, wrapping, the wrap and handling is too much I think, as well as taking twice the length of time to fodder in the winter, also with pit ya don't come in after foddering smelling like a bale too

darragh_haven

If a person makes and feeds 5-600 bales a year, the economy of pouring a silage slab comes into play. Any one doing 800 plus..... should defiantly have at least a slab and you still can make 200 bales from strong paddocks, etc at the the start and end of the year.

whelan2

we had a discussion on this a few weeks ago http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90730720

mahoney_j

Hope gg is reading this !!

Greengrass1

mahoney_j wrote: »

Hope gg is reading this !!

I'm not fmdragging this argument here. Well keep it on the dairy thread.
All I'll say is 2.5k is Monet I can use to reseed or go on the beer

adne

darragh_haven wrote: »

If a person makes and feeds 5-600 bales a year, the economy of pouring a silage slab comes into play. Any one doing 800 plus..... should defiantly have at least a slab and you still can make 200 bales from strong paddocks, etc at the the start and end of the year.

I think it comes into play if making 250-300 bales a year

yessam

Huge savings on cost, labour and time on pit silage over bales.

With bales you get more digestable better quality silage especially for suckler cows.

More waste on pit silage and dwarf calves.

darragh_haven

yessam wrote: »

Huge savings on cost, labour and time on pit silage over bales.

With bales you get more digestable better quality silage especially for suckler cows.

More waste on pit silage and dwarf calves.

What?

frazzledhome

darragh_haven wrote: »

What?

Jex???

mahoney_j

frazzledhome wrote: »

Jex???

The war the feckin war don't mention the feckin war!!!!!!

mahoney_j

yessam wrote: »

Huge savings on cost, labour and time on pit silage over bales.

With bales you get more digestable better quality silage especially for suckler cows.

More waste on pit silage and dwarf calves.

What as right ,totally disagree.good silage is good silage wether in pit or bales if stored correctly

Panch18

Feeding round bales to 125 cows plus followers plus 100 Beef cattle

Haven't made pit in well over 10 years

yessam

darragh_haven wrote: »

What?

Precission chop silge can run trough cattle and may not be able to digest the silage.

There is a higher rate of dwarf calves with cows fed on precission chop silage - ask your vet

Greengrass1

Panch18 wrote: »

Feeding round bales to 125 cows plus followers plus 100 Beef cattle

Haven't made pit in well over 10 years

Where were ye in the convo last night and today?

Panch18

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Where were ye in the convo last night and today?

I thought you had that debate won hands down - so i left ya to it!

td5man

yessam wrote: »

Precission chop silge can run trough cattle and may not be able to digest the silage.

There is a higher rate of dwarf calves with cows fed on precission chop silage - ask your vet

It's hard to beat wagon silage. 😉

Injuryprone

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Where were ye in the convo last night and today?

He didn't say he made them himself!!:D

yessam

td5man wrote: »

It's hard to beat wagon silage. 😉

Wagon silage is definitely the best. I just don't have that option.

mahoney_j

Panch18 wrote: »

I thought you had that debate won hands down - so i left ya to it!

I beg to differ,all gg costs not included,dosnt want to include cost of deprecation,tiny labour cost ,new tractor or cost of fertilising crop.1000 bales never cheaper or more efficient than wagon or sp in pit.4.50 a bale?????.we are dairy farmers not cobtractors nor tillage farmers ,time is better spent on cows and grassland !!anyway argument over,more important things to argue over!!!

adne

Panch18 wrote: »

Feeding round bales to 125 cows plus followers plus 100 Beef cattle

Haven't made pit in well over 10 years

Fooook. How many bales a year u make.
Sounds like you need to get the calculator out

Gillespy

How many bales/acre for it to be cheaper to bale based on your costs?

Everything is relative, to say anything over 300 bales is cheaper pitted makes no sense.

Also maybe those 300 bales came off 50 acres the first week in May. Until the charging system changes and it is with some wagon contractors, bales will always lend themselves better to taking lighter cuts over pit. €120/acre I would want to see the mower blocking.

Panch18

adne wrote: »

Fooook. How many bales a year u make.
Sounds like you need to get the calculator out

Not me - brother is making circa 1600 a year

There are always other factors to consider than purely how much per acre it is costing to get it done eg much easier to do bales in many cuts of small acerage, the self propelled lads want it all done in 1 go

mahoney_j

Right my very final word. Just bumped into neighbour ,dairy farmer ,80 cows with own tractor*2(2013 new holland and 2650 Jn Deere) ,baler,wrapper .also dose a bit of contracting.everything owned and paid for bar new holland.secobd labour unit is 19 year old son.asked him what he charges himself to cut bale and wrap including plastic and pay himself and son.he didn't have to hesitate 5.60 per bale.
He gave up doing his own silage as too many bales >1000 bales annually.its now done by wagon and in his words considerably cheaper .hiscwife is an accountant so I'd be fairly sure of his figures .food for thought....I had to ask him after all tooing and frooing here all day!!!!

Greengrass1

mahoney_j wrote: »

Right my very final word. Just bumped into neighbour ,dairy farmer ,80 cows with own tractor*2(2013 new holland and 2650 Jn Deere) ,baler,wrapper .also dose a bit of contracting.everything owned and paid for bar new holland.secobd labour unit is 19 year old son.asked him what he charges himself to cut bale and wrap including plastic and pay himself and son.he didn't have to hesitate 5.60 per bale.
He gave up doing his own silage as too many bales >1000 bales annually.its now done by wagon and in his words considerably cheaper .hiscwife is an accountant so I'd be fairly sure of his figures .food for thought....I had to ask him after all tooing and frooing here all day!!!!

So I was only 85c out? Not bad for rough figures

darragh_haven

yessam wrote: »

Precission chop silge can run trough cattle and may not be able to digest the silage.

There is a higher rate of dwarf calves with cows fed on precission chop silage - ask your vet

I rang my vet (also my cousin). When I put the it to him about precision chop, he said "what are asking me that for, ye make Wagon silage ya bollix and ya have bullocks!".





Then he said he never came across that theory before.

stanflt

Ok so for first cut I'd go pit silage as value for money

But if you have your own mower I'd be baling grass every five weeks after- at 4-5 bales an acre you'll have a cheaper cutting cost with bales plus silage quality will be higher as your not waiting on bulk to get" "value for money"
Bales are easier to fed out during grass deficits in summer and at the shoulders

Ps if I had a baler I would use it myself but I'd never change it for a new one

Henwin

how much wud putting in a slab cost? a reasonable size for 60 cows, 20 heifers and a few calves. my fiancee makes 1100 bales every year drawing them from 3 miles, 6 miles and 12 miles away. he has his own baler and wrapper and draws himself. a contractor mows it.
I was thinking a pit wud be cheaper and less labour intensive- didnt see him for over a week in may.
there is a old slurry yard on the farm but its run down and wud need to be extended.
Wud you need the run off to a flow into a tank?how do other people manage this.

Farmer Pudsey

Henwin wrote: »

how much wud putting in a slab cost? a reasonable size for 60 cows, 20 heifers and a few calves. my fiancee makes 1100 bales every year drawing them from 3 miles, 6 miles and 12 miles away. he has his own baler and wrapper and draws himself. a contractor mows it.
I was thinking a pit wud be cheaper and less labour intensive- didnt see him for over a week in may.
there is a old slurry yard on the farm but its run down and wud need to be extended.
Wud you need the run off to a flow into a tank?how do other people manage this.

TBH if you have a draw pit silage is about the best option. However you fiancees would be better off mowing himself and getting a contractor to bale and bring in himself. there is one happy contractor mowing is about the only profitable part of baling.

PitVbales a lot depends on personnel choice and set up. I have a small farm that is fairly heavily stocked. Bales allow me to maximise output and still have fairly good quality silage. Intend to buy my own disc mower that will allow 4 cuts on Hybrids/Italians and take out heavy paddocks. Also this will improves grass quality.

With a pit I would be caught for grass during May and early June and it would not be worth my while using Hybrids/Italians to maximise output. Do not think it takes much longer to feed bales and any old tractor can carry in a bale of silage. A bale of silage will provide feed for a pen of cattle for two days with 1-2kgs of ration.

epfff

darragh_haven wrote: »

I rang my vet (also my cousin). When I put the it to him about precision chop, he said "what are asking me that for, ye make Wagon silage ya bollix and ya have bullocks!".





Then he said he never came across that theory before.

ask him to chat any of his collegues working in the Shannon basin
big problem round here had 15 of them back in spring 10 lab showing up nothing started feeding lots of straw problem solved
with no sentific research round here we have noticed it is most common on farms feeding good quality precision chop not really a prob with bales or guys with long grazing seasons

frazzledhome

Greengrass1 wrote: »

So I was only 85c out? Not bad for rough figures

And your not married to an accountant

mahoney_j

frazzledhome wrote: »

And your not married to an accountant

850 euros out on 1000 bales still cobsiderable difference,add In cutting cost and the other same costs as wagon or sp silage as well as convienence pit still wins hands down .whT if a major part on baler or wrapper goes?????.gg pays if wagon or sp not his proab

frazzledhome

mahoney_j wrote: »

850 euros out on 1000 bales still cobsiderable difference,add In cutting cost and the other same costs as wagon or sp silage as well as convienence pit still wins hands down .whT if a major part on baler or wrapper goes?????.gg pays if wagon or sp not his proab

To be fair Gg has the baler and paid for. It's old but working. If a major part goes he reverses it into the corner of the haggard and rings the contractor

mahoney_j

frazzledhome wrote: »

To be fair Gg has the baler and paid for. It's old but working. If a major part goes he reverses it into the corner of the haggard and rings the contractor

Fair point,but it's easy say that in theory no guarantee he would do that.sell both now and second tractor while there worth something.its easy say he will bank the 2500 he says he saves every year ,unless very diligent that won't happen.he was talking earlier about a wuffler after all!!.flog the lot. Sort his cubicles and slurry storage and milk more cows more mobey in bank and not chasing a baler and wrapper for days o. End during sumner.silage done In half a day and get cobtractor to bale surpluses.hope it ain't comming across that I'm having a pop at the guy cause it ain't my intention .weve been told he has money to spend on parlour ,cubicles and slurry storage,for me there's a bit too much of a love affair with machinery.

visatorro

Have to say I don't like the persistent comments on gg making his own silage with his own baler. One of the most prolific posters here stated his case about what suits him and what he does on his own farm. No need to keep telling him he's wrong

mahoney_j

visatorro wrote: »

Have to say I don't like the persistent comments on gg making his own silage with his own baler. One of the most prolific posters here stated his case about what suits him and what he does on his own farm. No need to keep telling him he's wrong

Look it ain't personAl,it's about cost of pit v bales.costs all in pit is cheaper and more convienent.for surpluses bales are cheaper and more convienent.im trying to get him to outline FULL cost,he dosnt want to include things like fertliser costs new tractor re payement cost,deprecation and full 2 labour unit costs.im off to the pub ,couldn't be arsed with this thread anymore

visatorro

mahoney_j wrote: »

Look it ain't personAl,it's about cost of pit v bales.costs all in pit is cheaper and more convienent.for surpluses bales are cheaper and more convienent.im trying to get him to outline FULL cost,he dosnt want to include things like fertliser costs new tractor re payement cost,deprecation and full 2 labour unit costs.im off to the pub ,couldn't be arsed with this thread anymore

Didn't mean to drive you to drink!

mahoney_j

visatorro wrote: »

Didn't mean to drive you to drink!

It wouldn't take much chief!!!!
Now goingvto start another argument ,what's cheaper or more convienent,large bottles of cider or pints of cider...........!!!!!

Farmer Pudsey

mahoney_j wrote: »

It wouldn't take much chief!!!!
Now goingvto start another argument ,what's cheaper or more convienent,large bottles of cider or pints of cider...........!!!!!

It a bit like bales versus pit pint cheaper but the pint bottle is better stuff, last longer and cheaper in the long run.

Pint bottle=bales
Pint= Pit

End of argument

Greengrass1

mahoney_j wrote: »

850 euros out on 1000 bales still cobsiderable difference,add In cutting cost and the other same costs as wagon or sp silage as well as convienence pit still wins hands down .whT if a major part on baler or wrapper goes?????.gg pays if wagon or sp not his proab

No major part to go on a baler only the main chamber bearings which are nakered as it is. And wrapper is 5 yrs old in immaculate condition nothing can go on them unless your a pig of an operator.
I gave you my costs.
Look I will only be able to do it for another 2 yrs at most I'd say so what's the big deal. 1700 quid might seem feck all to you but that's not to far off a months mortgage for us. Its the system we have. That's it. I can't feckin change everything in two yrs.
I think we've made great progress since I came home.
We owed enough lads Money for the last few yrs be nice to have a few yrs where we don't owe another lad

frazzledhome

My take on pit v bales

Less than 4 bales or long draw, wrap
More than 4 wagon to pit. When pit full stay baling.
If you don't have a tractor and loader, bales

If moving silage any distance ie. contractor hires more trailers, bales are the job as you can dry righ down. You'll carry 13 tonne of fresh on a 17 bake load. It would take a massive silage trailer to do the same

Cow Porter

@mahoney how much per acre is pit costing you? (please don't include fert or land charges)

Really don't think you can include fertiliser to compare or even repayments on my one tractor that will be used every other week of the year. It's all part of the farm system.

A man has machinery that owes him nothing in the yard that allows him to make his silage when he wants? Can't see why you need to change unless repairs or repayments are excessive

any fella still at that around here are not fools and in fact some have gone away from the contractor and bought their own gear. The fellas who went away from it only did so cos of lack of help in my view.

As for selling the landini... Why? Shur he will need something for the diet feeder lol

mahoney_j

Cow Porter wrote: »

@mahoney how much per acre is pit costing you? (please don't include fert or land charges)

Really don't think you can include fertiliser to compare or even repayments on my one tractor that will be used every other week of the year. It's all part of the farm system.

A man has machinery that owes him nothing in the yard that allows him to make his silage when he wants? Can't see why you need to change unless repairs or repayments are excessive

any fella still at that around here are not fools and in fact some have gone away from the contractor and bought their own gear. The fellas who went away from it only did so cos of lack of help in my view.

As for selling the landini... Why? Shur he will need something for the diet feeder lol

Main first cut,95 euro/acre cobtractor icharge in pit.no worries for me bout repairs,breakdowns,lifting and stacking couple of 100 bales, up and down out of tractor like a yo yo all winter takibg off net and wrap..job done in half a day leaving me time to manage grass and look after stock which as a dairy farmer is my primary role.
From an accountancy point of view why not put a value per bale I. Fert costs,tractor re payement costs,it's all included in what mKes and produces a bale.
The reason I'm saying flog the lot while there worth something is that gg has outlined he has loads of cubicles to put I. As well as slurry storage etc etc..money is better spent here.too much time is list making and feeding over 1000 bales .with cobtractor you pay him for what work he dose,it's quick convienent and more cost effective at over 1 k bales.pit the main first and secobd cut and bAle the surplus .

Cow Porter

mahoney_j wrote: »

Main first cut,95 euro/acre cobtractor icharge in pit.no worries for me bout repairs,breakdowns,lifting and stacking couple of 100 bales, up and down out of tractor like a yo yo all winter takibg off net and wrap..job done in half a day leaving me time to manage grass and look after stock which as a dairy farmer is my primary role.
From an accountancy point of view why not put a value per bale I. Fert costs,tractor re payement costs,it's all included in what mKes and produces a bale.
The reason I'm saying flog the lot while there worth something is that gg has outlined he has loads of cubicles to put I. As well as slurry storage etc etc..money is better spent here.too much time is list making and feeding over 1000 bales .with cobtractor you pay him for what work he dose,it's quick convienent and more cost effective at over 1 k bales.pit the main first and secobd cut and bAle the surplus .

95/acre for cutting, chopping and loader on pit?? including vat? not a hope in hell of getting that in cork. is that pay on the day??

agree it is a dose dealing with plastic and net compared to driving in the pit, i wouldn't really mind the summer work though lol.

but the gear isn't costing him anything so how is he going to put in cubicles any faster unless he starts making them or else gets an off farm job.

greengrass sorry to put you in the spotlight, can you make out how much per acre it is costing you to do first cut?, cut, bale, wrap and stack. sorry if you already done it, and if you don't want to ignore me lol.

its horses for courses, one man may not like to be up on a tractor all day, the other wouldn't care less.

all said if i was in a position with a baler and wrapper in the yard id probably make first cut in pit and bale everything else - pit is very convenient to be fair

Farmer Pudsey

The one thing we always hear is there is no difference in silage between pit and bale from lads that make pits. However lots of lads that change to bales will tell you bale silage is better. Most lads that change back will do so for convience but loads will tell you bales is better quality.

I am not sure if all this issue about feeding bales in winter is as big an as fella think. If you are feeding a lot 1000 bales one of the grabs that cuts the plastic may be an option. The other thing is that any bales of silage is about 2-3 grabs of it. So in some way's it is half the work. Any tractor (provided it is 60+HP) will feed bale silage ideally with pit you need a shear grab and they are slow enough as well.

I see a lad near me has a front fork goes into side of bale into shed off tractor slit lenght ways along bottom of bale, back on tractor and a few rattle of loader and bales begins to fall apart reverses back and same again. When it completely falls apart lifts plastic and netting out of shed and throws to one side back in and adjusts the silage in front of cattle.

Alot of bales versus pit is the farming system in place. For instance one lad ralks about drawing bales, but a silage contractor will drop all that into yard in one sweep.

However the real issue is if a smallish operator, contractors doing pit silage have no interest in you, They will cut it now and have the rake in after it and load it up put it in the pit and the heavens could be open. For that faculity they could charge you 110/acre.

It all down to the system that suits. In GG's case in the longterm pit may be cheaper and free up time, however his quality of feed may well be better at present. More than likely it is cheaper not including his own time. Personnlly I thing most baling and silage contractors are working at cost for a wage out of the system.

Cow Porter

reason as i see it why fellas say there is less waste with bales is there is no air. if enough attention to detail went into covering the pit and checking it for bastarding crows etc there wouldnt be much between them. easier said than done though, sweat, tyres full of rat piss and heat in the oil skins often leads to saying ill tidy it off tomorrow ha

mahoney_j

Cow Porter wrote: »

95/acre for cutting, chopping and loader on pit?? including vat? not a hope in hell of getting that in cork. is that pay on the day??

agree it is a dose dealing with plastic and net compared to driving in the pit, i wouldn't really mind the summer work though lol.

but the gear isn't costing him anything so how is he going to put in cubicles any faster unless he starts making them or else gets an off farm job.

greengrass sorry to put you in the spotlight, can you make out how much per acre it is costing you to do first cut?, cut, bale, wrap and stack. sorry if you already done it, and if you don't want to ignore me lol.

its horses for courses, one man may not like to be up on a tractor all day, the other wouldn't care less.

all said if i was in a position with a baler and wrapper in the yard id probably make first cut in pit and bale everything else - pit is very convenient to be fair

Correct ,could be less this year,cobtractor here very fair I cut early and a bit lighter for quality so he can charge me less,this is what he wants more lads to do to stop everybody ringing and looking for him come first week of June .dont know what he charges most lads that cut in June with big heavy crops proab 110 plus .pay half on day and rest whenever heceants it.he also dose my reseeding hedge trimming ,slurry so gets a lot of work put his way.
Yes the gear ain't costing him nothing now but breakdowns and long term ware and Tare from baling wrapping. Stacking ,drawing etc will add up.dont think letting them go till they stop is good enough reason to keep them. Why not sell them now. Get a few quid for both put mobey towards planning and putting In cubicles,storage ,parlour etc and free up time to give with the gf,go on a holiday .
There was a figure given of 2500 and 1700 on what gg said he'd save over pitting the lot,my question would this be banked and saved?????maby it is,but been a farmer myself I'd doubt it.i know 2 guys with there own farms and baler wrappers and both gave up doing all bales for main crop first cut as it was too expensive and time consuming ,both do a small bit of contracting ,one an 80 cow dairy farmer and other suckler farmer with 120 calving down.
Look hats off to gg ,he's young and has a long career ahead of him he's priorities mostly are right,cows,grass and trying to milk as low cost as possible..by his own admissions he has a lot of money to spend around the yard and that's where my money would be going.sounds like himself and father would make a fair go of doing a lot of work themselves so save the money there .

mf240

This thing of charging for your own time is bull. You might as well be sitting on the tractor as down the pub, or fluting around mowing the lawn or looking at corrie.

Mahoney give it a rest. You must measure every blade of grass individually if you are so busy at it that you wouldnt have time to make a few bales.

mahoney_j

mf240 wrote: »

This thing of charging for your own time is bull. You might as well be sitting on the tractor as down the pub, or fluting around mowing the lawn or looking at corrie.

Mahoney give it a rest. You must measure every blade of grass individually if you are so busy at it that you wouldnt have time to make a few bales.

So u get up every day and work for nothing,fair play to you.i ain't no Slave and certainly ain't working for nothing every day ,I hear that argument many times andvits a pike of crap.lads sitting on there hole drawing the dole get what 8 euro an hour for doing nothing,some lads here happy to work an 80 hour week for half that!!
As regards time I've loads of it ,I take holidays,weekends away,the odd evening and Sunday off.nothing suffers here if I do.working for a few years away from farm was best thing I ever did,makes u really appreciate structured work hours and time off

mf240

mahoney_j wrote: »

So u get up every day and work for nothing,/QUOTE]

No i work for myself and a few hours extra doesnt cost me anything.

mahoney_j

mf240 wrote: »

mahoney_j wrote: »

So u get up every day and work for nothing,/QUOTE]

No i work for myself and a few hours extra doesnt cost me anything.

Course it dose,if different your working for nothing.......