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Tenants can "live free" for 18 months!

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    #32
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    MYOB wrote: »
    Small investors really shouldn't be trying to make money off BTL then.

    A healthy competitive market has players of all sizes, be it corner shops to large multiple stores, small start up software companies to the MNCs. Property investment is no different. The risk will always be greater for the small player, but it would be very bad news for renters if barriers to entry were put up to stop small investors entering the market. You would end up with one or two players having the rental market stitched up, and almost certainly price fixing. Shudder.


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    #33
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    MouseTail wrote: »
    A healthy competitive market has players of all sizes, be it corner shops to large multiple stores, small start up software companies to the MNCs. Property investment is no different. The risk will always be greater for the small player, but it would be very bad news for renters if barriers to entry were put up to stop small investors entering the market. You would end up with one or two players having the rental market stitched up, and almost certainly price fixing. Shudder.


    That true, however it the idea of doing a BTL by yourself and expecting your risk profile is going to be the same as a profession investor is a bit silly.


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    #34
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭emeldc


    mariaalice wrote: »
    That true, however it the idea of doing a BTL by yourself and expecting your risk profile is going to be the same as a profession investor is a bit silly.

    But the risk should be proportionally the same. Are we not all bound by the same rules. There is nothing to suggest that a professional LL can get rid of a bad tenant any quicker than I can.


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    #35
    zef
    Closed Accounts Posts: 947 ✭✭✭zef


    Its basically theft on a grand scale and should be treated as such, with harsher penalties to show it is not socially acceptable.
    In the security industry it is reckoned about 10% of the population has the propensity to steal, be it active theft or more passively, e.g. finding money that just dropped out of the pockets of a person in front of them.
    If a landlord is a business, and taxed as such, its a bit of a joke that if the Ll changes the locks in order to get his own home back after being owed however many thousands, he or she can be liable for 10k+ for illegal eviction.
    Its put me right off renting my home out to move to a town a bus and a train away, which would suit me for college.
    A painter was telling me of his last job, a total refurb of an apt. The tenant was leaving on a Friday and felt sorry for a homeless lad outside. Gave him the keys to the apt, asking him to be out by Sunday. Him and his mates trashed the place, even I was shocked st the gory details. ****e all over the place, flooded, anything not nailed down gone.


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    #36
    Sam the Sham
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Sam the Sham


    zef wrote: »
    Its basically theft on a grand scale and should be treated as such, with harsher penalties to show it is not socially acceptable.

    If that's "theft on a grand scale," what do you call landlords who have stopped payment on their mortgages but still charge rent? Now imagine a landlord who has multiple properties and is not servicing the mortgages on any of them but collecting rent on all of them. Now stop imagining.


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    #37
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Sam the Sham wrote: »
    If that's "theft on a grand scale," what do you call landlords who have stopped payment on their mortgages but still charge rent? Now imagine a landlord who has multiple properties and is not servicing the mortgages on any of them but collecting rent on all of them. Now stop imagining.

    You call them defaulters.


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    #38
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Sam the Sham wrote: »
    If that's "theft on a grand scale," what do you call landlords who have stopped payment on their mortgages but still charge rent? Now imagine a landlord who has multiple properties and is not servicing the mortgages on any of them but collecting rent on all of them. Now stop imagining.


    But the LL will be ultimately responsible for the mortgage. The tenants are rarely if ever held responsible for the rent and damage.


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    #39
    Sam the Sham
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Sam the Sham


    emeldc wrote: »
    But the LL will be ultimately responsible for the mortgage.

    There is very little evidence that that will ever be the case. The mortgages will be written down without the landlord ever losing possession of the property or properties. And, given the extent of taxpayer bailouts of the banks holding the mortgages, it is the taxpayer making up the difference. Free money for landlords!

    When that stops, I might have a tiny bit of sympathy for those dealing with bad tenants. Until then, crocodile tears: being a landlord is a cushy number and, basically, a one-way bet.


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    #40
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Sam the Sham wrote: »
    There is very little evidence that that will ever be the case. The mortgages will be written down without the landlord ever losing possession of the property or properties. And, given the extent of taxpayer bailouts of the banks holding the mortgages, it is the taxpayer making up the difference. Free money for landlords!

    When that stops, I might have a tiny bit of sympathy for those dealing with bad tenants. Until then, crocodile tears: being a landlord is a cushy number and, basically, a one-way bet.

    Sam just a word of warning, it is against the charter to engage in a 'Them vs Us' discussion here. So please don't go down the route of just slagging off landlords 'just because' - it won't be tolerated.

    /Mod


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    #41
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    emeldc wrote: »
    But the risk should be proportionally the same. Are we not all bound by the same rules. There is nothing to suggest that a professional LL can get rid of a bad tenant any quicker than I can.
    A pro LL may be able to absorb the costs, and have a kitty for such eventualities.

    If it's paying the mortgage of what they see as their "nest egg", pension, etc, the small landlord may go into full panic mode when their tenant misses a few months rent.


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    #42
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    A place I was living in put up the rent, I left and so did all but one person living there, talk to him a year later and the new tenants had not paid rent once. Nothing they could do until the tenants just upped and left one day. This is often why I put forth to landlords that they should value good tenants, bad ones generally completely wreck a house and/or don't pay.


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    #43
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    McGrath5 wrote: »
    I would see an 18 month time frame from the moment of non payment to actual eviction as been very much in favour of the tenant and also been very protectionist of the tenants "rights".

    This is a system that is in dire need of reform.

    IMHO it's not so much the system as the culture of the industry is in need of reform. How people approach it. Put simply, there is no system you can put in place in Ireland that will lead to reform if it doesn't come with attitude changes as well. There is a monumental lack of trust here and you cannot fix that with a system; it's a mindset problem.


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    #44
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,885 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    What about a hypothetical situation I always wanted to ask about where:

    -You're the landlord

    -You rent out a property you own thats not your primary residence.

    -No leases signed, no PTRB reregistration (illegal blah blah... well this is the way the 8-9 houses Ive rented in Ireland have worked so Id say its widespread...)

    -Tenant stops paying, refuses to engage.

    -You move into the house with the tenant, get a few bank statements and bills sent round as proof of residence.

    -Bag up the tenants crap and throw it out as owners in residence are allowed to do? Change the locks.

    Whats the worst that could happen there? PTRB fine but you get your property back? All hypothetical not condoning it or anything its just a thought experiment.


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    #45
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Thargor wrote: »
    What about a hypothetical situation I always wanted to ask about where:

    -You're the landlord

    -You rent out a property you own thats not your primary residence.

    -No leases signed, no PTRB reregistration (illegal blah blah... well this is the way the 8-9 houses Ive rented in Ireland have worked so Id say its widespread...)

    -Tenant stops paying, refuses to engage.

    -You move into the house with the tenant, get a few bank statements and bills sent round as proof of residence.

    -Bag up the tenants crap and throw it out as owners in residence are allowed to do? Change the locks.

    Whats the worst that could happen there? PTRB fine but you get your property back? All hypothetical not condoning it or anything its just a thought experiment.


    I'm thinking, implied contract? Dont know but thats the first hurdle that I would think of.


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    #46
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Thargor wrote: »
    What about a hypothetical situation I always wanted to ask about where:

    -You're the landlord

    -You rent out a property you own thats not your primary residence.

    -No leases signed, no PTRB reregistration (illegal blah blah... well this is the way the 8-9 houses Ive rented in Ireland have worked so Id say its widespread...)

    -Tenant stops paying, refuses to engage.

    -You move into the house with the tenant, get a few bank statements and bills sent round as proof of residence.

    -Bag up the tenants crap and throw it out as owners in residence are allowed to do? Change the locks.

    Whats the worst that could happen there? PTRB fine but you get your property back? All hypothetical not condoning it or anything its just a thought experiment.

    Hypothetically speaking of course, you are right. You get your property back and maybe the PRTB wont take any action at all. But what if your tenant is Mike Tyson :rolleyes:


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    #47
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,981 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Thargor wrote: »
    What about a hypothetical situation I always wanted to ask about where:

    -You're the landlord

    -You rent out a property you own thats not your primary residence.

    -No leases signed, no PTRB reregistration (illegal blah blah... well this is the way the 8-9 houses Ive rented in Ireland have worked so Id say its widespread...)

    -Tenant stops paying, refuses to engage.

    -You move into the house with the tenant, get a few bank statements and bills sent round as proof of residence.

    -Bag up the tenants crap and throw it out as owners in residence are allowed to do? Change the locks.

    Whats the worst that could happen there? PTRB fine but you get your property back? All hypothetical not condoning it or anything its just a thought experiment.

    Tennent lodges a case with the PRTB, says he rented a house from you and then you moved yourself into it. All the evidence you have points to this, all the evidence he has points to this. 10k+ settlement for illegal eviction.


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    #48
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Tennent lodges a case with the PRTB, says he rented a house from you and then you moved yourself into it. All the evidence you have points to this, all the evidence he has points to this. 10k+ settlement for illegal eviction.

    Have you any links to any cases where a LL was ever fined anything for an illegal eviction. Or even where a tenant took a case against a LL for an illegal eviction. I'm not saying they don't exist, I just can't find any.


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    #49
    Montroseee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Montroseee


    emeldc wrote: »
    Have you any links to any cases where a LL was ever fined anything for an illegal eviction. Or even where a tenant took a case against a LL for an illegal eviction. I'm not saying they don't exist, I just can't find any.

    In my experience, they are few and far between. A tenant that engages in such behavior will usually not have the funds to bring it to court.


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    #50
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Montroseee wrote: »
    In my experience, they are few and far between. A tenant that engages in such behavior will usually not have the funds to bring it to court.


    PRTB can fast track a dispute wrt an illegal eviction and obtain a barring order pending resolution.

    Also, what do you mean by "a tenant who engages in such behaviour"? What behaviour are you referring to?


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    #51
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,981 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    PRTB site, court decisions,

    First page

    http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/court-decisions-enforcement-of-orders/final-dr1164-2009.pdf?sfvrsn=0

    Third Page

    http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/court-decisions-enforcement-of-orders/final-tr111-dr1065-2009.pdf?sfvrsn=0

    Fourth page

    http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/court-decisions-enforcement-of-orders/final-dr362-2011.pdf?sfvrsn=0

    And so on. When you have no basis for the search it starts around 2012 but you get the gist.


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    #52
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,981 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Also, A PRTB judgement is pretty much a win in the District court. And you do not walk away from a 4-12k judgement.


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    #53
    TireeTerror
    Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭TireeTerror


    I have lived in Ireland for just over 3 years, I've moved house each year so Im now on my 4th tenancy. Each time it was through an estate agent from an ad on daft.ie. I have been asked for a PPS number each time, but I just said I didn't have one and they just said "oh OK then" and that was it.

    Im Scottish so obviously it would be easier for me to say that than an Irish person.


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