Planning app lodged for Pelletstown Station

ongarboy

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/PC0182.htm

I see a planning application has been lodged to An Bord Pleanala for a new train station at Pelletstown. I'm fairly certain that is between Ashtown and Broombridge on the Maynooth line. I wonder is there a real need for another station on that line with Ashtown so near?

Dravokivich

I know people who use Ashtown over Broombridge itself. So if there's big enough demand, it could be those who it's for.

Scratch that, could it not be for when the line through pheonix park?

LXFlyer

The line through the Phoenix Park tunnel has nothing to do with the Maynooth line.

Pelletstown is being built to serve the large number of apartments on the north side of the Royal Canal at or near the Ratoath Road.

Dravokivich

lxflyer wrote: »

The line through the Phoenix Park tunnel has nothing to do with the Maynooth line.

Pelletstown is being built to serve the large number of apartments on the north side of the Royal Canal at or near the Ratoath Road.

The Planning application link in the OP said nothing about what it's intentions are.

Dammit, didn't realise the header was an address.

Tube

Going to make an already slow service even slower.

europhile

Tube wrote: »

Going to make an already slow service even slower.

If there were no stops at all, the train would get into town in no time.

cython

Seems utterly pointless to me, and negates virtually any benefit that trains (barring the minority of services which run non-stop between Maynooth and Connolly) might get out of the eventual closure of the LC on the Ratoath road by putting a stop practically beside it.

Looking on Google maps, Broombridge to Ashtown is a 2.3km walk along the canal, so most of these apts are little more than 1km from a train station (and almost certainly within 1.5km). Potentially this might be worthwhile if the line was electrified and the rolling stock had the acceleration abilities of the DART, but as long as it is operated by DMUs (which seems like it will be the case for some time unless gold or oil is struck in building this station!), this is only going to impact negatively on the majority of users.

Victor

Its about more than just Royal Canal Park.

It connects Royal Canal Park to route 122

Allows connection from Ashington to Dublin Industrial Estate - currently a 45 minute, 4 km walk to move 100 metres. https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/53.3752855,-6.3068597/53.3739678,-6.3083471/@53.3721417,-6.3118271,15z/data=!4m4!4m3!1m0!1m0!3e2

Gives Ashington a train station.

Removes delays at the exit to Ashington.

n97 mini

Victor wrote: »

Its about more than just Royal Canal Park.

It connects Royal Canal Park to route 122

Allows connection from Ashington to Dublin Industrial Estate - currently a 45 minute, 4 km walk to move 100 metres. https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/53.3752855,-6.3068597/53.3739678,-6.3083471/@53.3721417,-6.3118271,15z/data=!4m4!4m3!1m0!1m0!3e2

Gives Ashington a train station.

Removes delays at the exit to Ashington.

Only one of those points actually requires a train station. If they need a bridge they should build a bridge instead.

NRPW and Broombridge already have virtually non existent patronage. Building another potentially unneeded station will only further inconvenience the vast majority of users of the line.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Only one of those points actually requires a train station. If they need a bridge they should build a bridge instead.

NRPW and Broombridge already have virtually non existent patronage. Building another potentially unneeded station will only further inconvenience the vast majority of users of the line.

There is a huge difference between Navan Road Parkway and Pelletstown.


The latter is beside large amounts of housing.

n97 mini

Ok, now that we've acknowledge NRPW is a problem, can we close it at the same time as Pelletstown is opened!

Secondly if the service isn't up to scratch people won't use it, as they already have very good Dublin Bus alternatives. This will provide the people around with an hourly, moderately slow service. Additionally the service is very congested in the mornings. Ashtown station is comparatively quiet because many people opt for the much more frequent, less congested (at peak), and often more suitable bus services. Indeed I remember a time when some services didn't bother stopping at Broombridge or Ashtown at all.

L1011

Once the line is electrified the issue of the number of stops will be heavily reduced due to the improved acceleration - but the electrification should be first; not more stops.

monument

Build a station at Phibsboro now and then the minister may be more pushed to push Dart Underground.

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

Build a station at Phibsboro now and then the minister may be more pushed to push Dart Underground.

Well the Minister can step outside his Constituency Office and see for himself......http://paschaldonohoe.ie/contact/

344 North Circular Road
Phibsborough
Dublin 7 (near St. Peter’s Church)

monument

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well the Minister can step outside his Constituency Office and see for himself......http://paschaldonohoe.ie/contact/

That was my point!

...but it is a 5-10mim walk to the railway line...

n97 mini

MYOB wrote: »

Once the line is electrified

Surely you mean if? I first heard of the Maynooth line being electrified in 1977.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

Surely you mean if? I first heard of the Maynooth line being electrified in 1977.

When you're suggesting postponing something till after electrification, either works about as well!

mrsdewinter

I live near the proposed Pelletstown station and I think it's long overdue.
Soz to all ye peeps who apparently can't stand seeing access to public transport being extended to all.

cython

mrsdewinter wrote: »

I live near the proposed Pelletstown station and I think it's long overdue.
Soz to all ye peeps who apparently can't stand seeing access to public transport being extended to all.

Wow, talk about hyperbolae. I think most of us who are questioning the sensibilities of this move have no issue with transport being extended to all, but the distance between the stations adjacent to the proposed site is approx the same as that between Clonsilla and Coolmine, and living in that area I would see little point in adding a station at Porterstown, for example, especially with the current rolling stock on the line.

Now as has been highlighted, there are certain accesses which are convoluted at present in the vicinity of Ashtown/Pelletstown, but these could be massively alleviated with comparatively minor infrastructure at a fraction of the cost (both short and long-term) of adding a new station on the line in the near future. Everyone would like a train station on their doorstep, but to accommodate that we might as well build travelators in and out of town....

While I am opposed to the current bastardisation of the DMU 29000 stock on intercity routes, I also think that hops of approx 1km between stations are a bit too short for them to realistically serve too - this is DART type routing, without the DART infrastructure.

Pete_Cavan

Has anyone heard anything more about this proposed station?

Ballymore Estates seem to be starting development at Royal Canal Park, they have permission for 152 houses, 91 apartments and a supermarket. I see from the planning application that they have to pay €2,704,345.30 to DCC "as a contribution towards expenditure that was and/ or is proposed to be incurred by the Planning Authority in respect of public infrastructure and facilities benefiting development in the administrative area of the Authority", is there any mechanism for some of this to go to IR for the station or does it get thrown into the DCC blackhole?

Ballymore also received planning for another 71 houses on a site a couple of hundred metres further west. In 2013, Castlethorn Construction received planning for 208 dwellings adjacent to that site. Basically, the population in the vicinity of the proposed station is likely to increase significantly over the next few years, in addition to a large population already south of the canal. Is it likely IR will proceed with the station which they have planning permission for any time soon? A fraction of these development contributions would cover the cost of the station.

mrsdewinter

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything more about this proposed station?

Ballymore Estates seem to be starting development at Royal Canal Park, they have permission for 152 houses, 91 apartments and a supermarket. I see from the planning application that they have to pay €2,704,345.30 to DCC "as a contribution towards expenditure that was and/ or is proposed to be incurred by the Planning Authority in respect of public infrastructure and facilities benefiting development in the administrative area of the Authority", is there any mechanism for some of this to go to IR for the station or does it get thrown into the DCC blackhole?

Ballymore also received planning for another 71 houses on a site a couple of hundred metres further west. In 2013, Castlethorn Construction received planning for 208 dwellings adjacent to that site. Basically, the population in the vicinity of the proposed station is likely to increase significantly over the next few years, in addition to a large population already south of the canal. Is it likely IR will proceed with the station which they have planning permission for any time soon? A fraction of these development contributions would cover the cost of the station.

The ramping-up of site works in recent weeks has piqued my interest too. Afaik, the ball is in Irish Rail's court. Is it worth noting that Leo's latest newsletter made *no mention* of Pelletstown train station?

drouse

Follow @rcpca1 or Royal Canal Park Community Association on FB for updates on developments in Pelletstown/Royal Canal Park.

cgcsb

Electrification to Maynooth, close all the remaining level crossings and only then new stations starting with Phibsboro. Then high density development of apartments along the line between Broombridge and Castleknock with new streets laid out in the area between Ratoath road and the M50. Some organisation please, Dublin is growing.

Jem72

In the interim, particularly after BXD opens, it would be well worth re-organising the peak timetable such that Maynooth trains run non-stop between Clonsilla and Broombridge and the M3 parkway trains could run the inner stops.

At least do this for the two Longford trains which would allow them to be operated by 3 or 4 car 22Ks. After BXD opens, everything (including Sligo trains) should be stopping at Broombridge.

Dravokivich

Jem72 wrote: »

In the interim, particularly after BXD opens, it would be well worth re-organising the peak timetable such that Maynooth trains run non-stop between Clonsilla and Broombridge and the M3 parkway trains could run the inner stops.

At least do this for the two Longford trains which would allow them to be operated by 3 or 4 car 22Ks. After BXD opens, everything (including Sligo trains) should be stopping at Broombridge.

A lot of people on those stops you want to skip and push to the M3 parkway trains tend to get off at Drumcondra and Pearse.

Why are you forcing them into multi-modal commuting?

LXFlyer

Jem72 wrote: »

In the interim, particularly after BXD opens, it would be well worth re-organising the peak timetable such that Maynooth trains run non-stop between Clonsilla and Broombridge and the M3 parkway trains could run the inner stops.

At least do this for the two Longford trains which would allow them to be operated by 3 or 4 car 22Ks. After BXD opens, everything (including Sligo trains) should be stopping at Broombridge.

Given that the Maynooth and M3 trains operate to completely different stations (Maynooth to Connolly, Pearse or Bray; M3 Parkway to Docklands), that won't be happening. You cannot simply remove services from stations like that.

Unless rolling stock that is currently in storage is returned (2700s), you are unlikely to see 22k sets returning to the Longford trains.

Given that rail passengers switching to LUAS will have to pay a second fare or get a rail/LUAS combined period pass if they want to use LUAS, I do wonder how great the numbers switching between the two services will be at Broombridge. The business case for the LUAS extension did not envisage a large number of transfers.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

Given that rail passengers switching to LUAS will have to pay a second fare or get a rail/LUAS combined period pass if they want to use LUAS, I do wonder how great the numbers switching between the two services will be at Broombridge. The business case for the LUAS extension did not envisage a large number of transfers.

Do you think the luas addon fare reducing will change that? For D15-Sandyford commutes?
It used to be about 40%of the rail ticket before, when it was only about 130 extra for the DB addon. Where they're both the same addon now.

n97 mini

I would welcome some of the peak morning and evening Maynooth services running non-stop (or close to it) from Clonsilla. Not every train needs to stop at every station. Currently only one train does this, the 18.55 ex Maynooth to Connolly.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

Do you think the luas addon fare reducing will change that? For D15-Sandyford commutes?
It used to be about 40%of the rail ticket before, when it was only about 130 extra for the DB addon. Where they're both the same addon now.

As usual in these discussions you seem to focus on people who would represent a minority of users in terms of overall passenger numbers on the rail line.

I'm sure that someone going to Sandyford will change at Broombridge, but that won't be the vast majority of users.

The majority work in the city centre and unless they don't like a walk, I'm not sure most people will want to pay more money instead of walking.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

I would welcome some of the peak morning and evening Maynooth services running non-stop (or close to it) from Clonsilla. Not every train needs to stop at every station. Currently only one train does this, the 18.55 ex Maynooth to Connolly.

I'm sure would, living beyond Clonsilla, but that's exceptionally narrow minded.

Why should passengers from stations between Clonsilla and Broombridge have a service level reduction just to please you?

They are as entitled to direct trains to Connolly or Pearse as you are.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

As usual in these discussions you seem to focus on people who would represent a minority of users in terms of overall passenger numbers on the rail line.

I'm sure that someone going to Sandyford will change at Broombridge, but that won't be the vast majority of users.

The majority work in the city centre and unless they don't like a walk, I'm not sure most people will want to pay more money instead of walking.

Ah you've misunderstood me here.
Previously the Luas addon was many more times more expensive than a Dublin bus addon, making it hugely unattractive
Now its the same price as a DB addon.

My point was that when the rpa set out their design case, switching may not have been in their mind as much, given the high cost, whereas now with a lower annual ticket cost, and some fare integration, there will be likely higher switching modes at Broombridge, than the rpa originally planned for.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ah you've misunderstood me here.
Previously the Luas addon was many more times more expensive than a Dublin bus addon, making it hugely unattractive
Now its the same price as a DB addon.

My point was that when the rpa set out their design case, switching may not have been in their mind as much, given the high cost, whereas now with a lower annual ticket cost, and some fare integration, there will be likely higher switching modes at Broombridge, than the rpa originally planned for.

It's still a lot of money to pay instead of walking!!

thomasj

n97 mini wrote:

Ok, now that we've acknowledge NRPW is a problem, can we close it at the same time as Pelletstown is opened!

Does Irish rail own NRPW? I know they operate it but wasn't it developed by developers. Also it seems to be doing well financially . the car park is full most days when I pass it by.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

It's still a lot of money to pay instead of walking!!

You have seen the number of taxis about right people pay lots to avoid walking.
The addon is about 25 cents each way from take home pay. 300 quid gross - 150 net; roughly 300 workdays & 2 trips

What put it in my mind is it offering a one change trip from D15 to Sandyford. There has got to be a lot of people living in D15 working there driving on the M50, so providing a somewhat sane alternative would help.

GM228

thomasj wrote: »

Does Irish rail own NRPW? I know they operate it but wasn't it developed by developers. Also it seems to be doing well financially . the car park is full most days when I pass it by.

It was funded by the developers of the Phoenix Park residential development, but ownership is by IE.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm sure would, living beyond Clonsilla, but that's exceptionally narrow minded.

Why should passengers from stations between Clonsilla and Broombridge have a service level reduction just to please you?

They are as entitled to direct trains to Connolly or Pearse as you are.

Who said anything about a service reduction? You did, and it's a childish argument.

Direct trains would benefit a lot of people. I do remember the good commuters of Maynooth revolted when the Maynooth stop was removed from the Sligo train timetable.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

You have seen the number of taxis about right people pay lots to avoid walking.
The addon is about 25 cents each way from take home pay. 300 quid gross - 150 net; roughly 300 workdays & 2 trips

What put it in my mind is it offering a one change trip from D15 to Sandyford. There has got to be a lot of people living in D15 working there driving on the M50, so providing a somewhat sane alternative would help.

I'm still not convinced though. While it might be easy to do southbound, with a 6 minute LUAS frequency, the lower rail frequency heading outbound on the Maynooth line, and the lack of a timetable on LUAS (just a frequency based service) will make it harder to judge when to get a tram, particularly given that only half the trams will go to Broombridge (the other half will turn at Parnell).

It's not like the Red line, where every tram goes within walking distance of Connolly.

Will that many people give up their cars for a public transport journey from D15 to Sandyford that will take an hour, before you add in walking time to/from stations, and waiting time at stations?

I'm passionate about using public transport, but I think you may be over-estimating the attractiveness of this option when compared with taking the car for such an orbital journey.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Who said anything about a service reduction? Not me.

You did.

You said:

n97 mini wrote: »

I would welcome some of the peak morning and evening Maynooth services running non-stop (or close to it) from Clonsilla. Not every train needs to stop at every station. Currently only one train does this, the 18.55 ex Maynooth to Connolly.

Given all of the trains currently serve all stations, if you make some of them non-stop between Clonsilla and Broombridge, and don't add additional trains inbound from Clonsilla that's a service reduction at those stations from Clonsilla inbound.

monument

Line to line urban rail transfers owned by the same level of government should be free. Like in car-centric cities which are now progressive in public transport, such as LA -- not a joke!

If needs be, a zonal system could be used and the cost should, for example, be the same from Maynooth to O'Connell Street as Maynooth to Connolly.

This should include anything within the short hop zone. Trips starting outside the zone should also include a heavy discount to use other rail services.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Line to line urban rail transfers owned by the same level of government should be free. Like in car-centric cities which are now progressive in public transport, such as LA -- not a joke!

This should include anything within the short hop zone. Trips starting outside the zone should also include a heavy discount to use other rail services.

Unfortunately until the funding model for public transport is overhauled, and more importantly the operating companies' finances restored to something other than the basket cases they currently are (and I include Transdev in that), I don't see that happening anytime soon monument.

We still have massive accumulated losses that need to be recouped.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

You did.

You said:



Given all of the trains currently serve all stations, if you make some of them non-stop between Clonsilla, and don't add additional trains inbound from Clonsilla that's a service reduction at those stations from Clonsilla inbound.

Stating that stations shouldn't have a service reduction to suit me personally is a childish argument. Am I the only one using these services? And why should all stations have the exact same service level? Do they all have the same level of patronage?

Why isn't the Sligo train stopping at every stop? Are they being selfish too?

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Stating that stations shouldn't have a service reduction to suit me personally is a childish argument. Am I the only one using these services? And why should all stations have the exact same service level? Do they all have the same level of patronage?

Why isn't the Sligo train stopping at every stop? Are they being selfish too?

With respect, you're suggesting that stations should have a service reduction and that commuter trains on that line should bypass stations.

That just is not going to happen. Full stop. Those stations are as entitled to direct trains to Pearse as those beyond Clonsilla. The patronage at Coolmine, Castleknock and Ashtown is not exactly insignificant, and Navan Road Parkway is growing.

The Sligo train is an Intercity service and is therefore different.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect, you're suggesting that stations should have a service reduction and that commuter trains on that line should bypass stations.

That just is not going to happen. Full stop. Those stations are as entitled to direct trains to Pearse as those beyond Clonsilla. The patronage at Coolmine, Castleknock and Ashtown is not exactly insignificant, and Navan Road Parkway is growing.

It's that kind of rigid thinking that has a service that is far from optimal. I would prefer to see an optimised timetable, like Bangor Belfast

lxflyer wrote: »

The Sligo train is an Intercity service and is therefore different.

So it's not selfish for them to want a quicker service by bypassing stations.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

It's that kind of rigid thinking that has a service that is far from optimal. I would prefer to see an optimised timetable, like Bangor Belfast



So it's not selfish for them to want a quicker service by bypassing stations.

The Sligo train never served intermediate stations. So it's not a cut.

What you are proposing is service cuts to intermediate stations on a commuter line and forcing people to have to take two trains where they currently take one by removing direct trains to Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street and Pearse, which is where the majority of users want to go.

The Portadown line trains all serve the same city centre stations regardless of where they stop - that's a massive difference compared with the Maynooth line where M3 Parkway trains go to Docklands.

Unless you maintain direct service levels to those city centre stations from all of the stations along the line, it simply is not going to happen.

n97 mini

Ok I'm not going to argue as I'm sure you're not one of those that is frustrated by that service stopping at empty stations with no-one getting on or off.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Ok I'm not going to argue as I'm sure you're not one of those that is frustrated by that service stopping at empty stations with no-one getting on or off.

It's difficult to take a post like this seriously.

Coolmine, Castleknock and Ashtown are never empty, quite the opposite, they are very busy, yet you are suggesting that they should have service reductions.

The only station that would have low patronage is Navan Road Parkway, and judging from the numbers of cars I've seen parked there, even it has increasing numbers of users.

Infini

lxflyer wrote: »

It's difficult to take a post like this seriously.

Coolmine, Castleknock and Ashtown are never empty, quite the opposite, they are very busy, yet you are suggesting that they should have service reductions.

The only station that would have low patronage is Navan Road Parkway, and judging from the numbers of cars I've seen parked there, even it has increasing numbers of users.

Theres plenty of people coming in from the stations between Ashtown and Clonsilla. Navan Road parkway is only quieter because of the lack of nearby houses atm there was meant to be a large apartment estate built on the other side of the N3 but it stalled due to the crash. Only thing holding these stations back really is the low level of service right now. Whenever they get the dart out there with at least a 15min window between trains I'd expect more people to use it.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

The only station that would have low patronage is Navan Road Parkway, and judging from the numbers of cars I've seen parked there, even it has increasing numbers of users.

All stations with parking have had a significant uptick in users as far as I can tell. Will need the next NTA census day to know for certain.

cython

n97 mini wrote: »

Ok I'm not going to argue as I'm sure you're not one of those that is frustrated by that service stopping at empty stations with no-one getting on or off.

As someone who used to regularly (and still occasionally do) commute by train from Coolmine (switched to cycling as I got fed up of overcrowding and service failures, but that's another discussion), I would be very surprised if you could class it, or indeed Castleknock, as one of these "empty stations with no-one getting on or off". Reducing the service level to these stations would be madness, and Ashtown (as mentioned) is also pretty busy during peak. So the only workable way to implement such a bypass is either outside of peak (when the service is already too low to tolerate further reductions) or to bypass only Navan Road Parkway, which is a marginal saving.

Never mind that Maynooth actually has a bus service that is not far off the train in terms of journey times into the city centre, whereas the Dublin 15 stations you propose bypassing have a far slower bus service than the train, so decrease in rail service would be a massive hit for the area.

sunshine135

Hi,
Does anyone know any update about this station or is it still at planning stage?

lucernarian

Oh how I'd love to see a station built at cross guns bridge in Phibsboro, but that's another discussion...

I'd like to see some updates on the Pelletstown application, along with what can be done for cycling access or even if car parking could be accommodated.