A3 National Championships 2014

lennymc

XtotheZ wrote: »

Corners, descents, rain, surface are all part of our sport. The winner, aswell as loads of others, negotiated all of them.

well said.

XtotheZ

pmurp141 wrote: »

don't get me wrong i fully aggree that these are all part of the sport and chapeau to winner(dont know him) and all who contested the placings. 1 things for sure the winner had to be a worthy1. i thought the "negative riding" comment on stickybottle was a harsh and unfair summary of the race from the little i was involved in it and what i saw after.

to be honest there was very few places to attack on that course. The climb - yeah not for most a3. No chance on the descent. The flat was too fast to really escape. IMho for a guy who weighs in at 85kg the only good place for me to go was over the top into the headwind, which worked but i could of used abit more firepower from my companion.

bwalsh1983

pmurp141 wrote: »

I can confirm that the first decent did create a split and i wasn't the only 1, a group of maybe 6 of us (alot more didn't) got back after chasing entire tailwind section (v difficult at the speeds on this section).

I was in this group, didnt position myself well at the start and was out the back immediately, had to get back on on the tailwind section but when we did rejoin I was good from there. The descents on the bottom/tailwind section were probably fastest on the first and second laps.

I concur with the good route, well organised etc. for the couple of people who crashed (me included) 95% stayed upright.

Cond0r

XtotheZ wrote: »

Corners, descents, rain, surface are all part of our sport. The winner, aswell as loads of others, negotiated all of them.

lennymc wrote: »

well said.

Obviously bike racing is inherently dangerous, but there are limits and organisers / CI have a responsibility to make races as safe as possible for racers and not use circuits that are obviously dangerous and unsuitable.

This includes, for example, cars coming onto the circuit in the direction of a bunch of 100 riders coming down a wet descent at 60+km/h where the road is only wide enough for a car and a half.

The attitude that "races are dangerous, deal with it" isn't really good enough IMHO, and if it continues it seems to me that races will become fewer and fewer as Gardaí and local authorities tighten up on them. It's already happening in numerous areas.

sheepfield

I fully agree that cornering, descending, climbing, attacking and dealing with weather, surface, tactics etc is all part of racing: we all surely know that. But I did expect better with regard to traffic etc on such narrow roads and surely to God with such an obviously dangerous but practically invisible hole right in the middle of the fast stretch, it would not have taken much to have it marked/painted; trying to tell everybody to "ride on the left" at that point meant that it was certain that somebody would hit it each time and indeed, the high speed crash happened there.
These are small but simple things that could have been dealt with. We shouldn't be too hard on the organising club etc; most of what they did was excellent but one smack from a car/tractor on those roads and we would not have much to celebrate today.

And fair play to the winner; a fine effort and he was one of the men to watch beforehand.

lennymc

Cond0r wrote: »

Obviously bike racing is inherently dangerous, but there are limits and organisers / CI have a responsibility to make races as safe as possible for racers and not use circuits that are obviously dangerous and unsuitable.

This includes, for example, cars coming onto the circuit in the direction of a bunch of 100 riders coming down a wet descent at 60+km/h where the road is only wide enough for a car and a half.

The attitude that "races are dangerous, deal with it" isn't really good enough IMHO, and if it continues it seems to me that races will become fewer and fewer as Gardaí and local authorities tighten up on them. It's already happening in numerous areas.

no one actually said ' races are dangerous - deal with it'. As you say, racing is inherently dangerous. One of the worst accidents i heard about this year was on a straight dual carriageway. Racing is a combination of skill and tactics, and it's the rider who deals with the course best wins. Racing is dangerous, and organisers do what they can to ensure safe racing. It's not the organisers that crash or fall off. Also, If riders decide to cycle on the wrong side of the road, how can an organiser prevent that? It is something that CI should address before it becomes more of an issue.

You mention cars coming on to the circuit as if the cars are in the wrong - cars have every right to be on the circuit unless there is permission for the road to be closed. Cyclists should only be two abreast and certainly shouldn't be in the oncoming lane. As far as I am aware, it is prohibitively expensive to close roads, so that's not going to happen without the entries getting ridiculously expensive.

At the end of the day it's down to the riders to worry about how they are riding, instead of worrying about online entries or facebook pages, and rider behaviour will ultimately influence how, where and when we race in the future - on closed tracks like mondello, or on public roads, but with a bit of manners and appreciation for other road users.

Inquitus

lennymc wrote: »

no one actually said ' races are dangerous - deal with it'. As you say, racing is inherently dangerous. One of the worst accidents i heard about this year was on a straight dual carriageway. Racing is a combination of skill and tactics, and it's the rider who deals with the course best wins. Racing is dangerous, and organisers do what they can to ensure safe racing. It's not the organisers that crash or fall off. Also, If riders decide to cycle on the wrong side of the road, how can an organiser prevent that? It is something that CI should address before it becomes more of an issue.

You mention cars coming on to the circuit as if the cars are in the wrong - cars have every right to be on the circuit unless there is permission for the road to be closed. Cyclists should only be two abreast and certainly shouldn't be in the oncoming lane. As far as I am aware, it is prohibitively expensive to close roads, so that's not going to happen without the entries getting ridiculously expensive.

At the end of the day it's down to the riders to worry about how they are riding, instead of worrying about online entries or facebook pages, and rider behaviour will ultimately influence how, where and when we race in the future - on closed tracks like mondello, or on public roads, but with a bit of manners and appreciation for other road users.

Aye Lenny, the problem here was the descent was about 1.5 cars wide, twisty, with blind corner after blind corner. The first time down 4 cars were coming up, you can't send 130 people down a descent at 50kph when the road is soo narrow. From what I gather now the intention was to restrict traffic to the same direction as the race on this section, only it took them 2 laps to get their act together.

Cond0r

lennymc wrote: »

no one actually said ' races are dangerous - deal with it'. As you say, racing is inherently dangerous. One of the worst accidents i heard about this year was on a straight dual carriageway. Racing is a combination of skill and tactics, and it's the rider who deals with the course best wins. Racing is dangerous, and organisers do what they can to ensure safe racing. It's not the organisers that crash or fall off. Also, If riders decide to cycle on the wrong side of the road, how can an organiser prevent that? It is something that CI should address before it becomes more of an issue.

I actually specifically called out the lack of sanctions from commissaires / CI on this issue, nothing to do with the organisers.

lennymc wrote: »

You mention cars coming on to the circuit as if the cars are in the wrong - cars have every right to be on the circuit unless there is permission for the road to be closed. Cyclists should only be two abreast and certainly shouldn't be in the oncoming lane. As far as I am aware, it is prohibitively expensive to close roads, so that's not going to happen without the entries getting ridiculously expensive.

It was in the "info pack" that the circuit would have a one-way system in place for the race, which it clearly didn't. Have you actually raced a single race where riders have remained 2 abreast for the entirety of it? I certainly haven't. This just doesn't happen, and the Gardaí and local authorities know it.

Given the €25 entry fee, I think that would have easily covered a closed road order. It's going to be in place for the vets / ladies national champs, why not for this one?

lennymc wrote: »

At the end of the day it's down to the riders to worry about how they are riding, instead of worrying about online entries or facebook pages, and rider behaviour will ultimately influence how, where and when we race in the future - on closed tracks like mondello, or on public roads, but with a bit of manners and appreciation for other road users.

I totally agree with you on this point, and that's why I'm raising these issues, but without sanctions from CI rider habits won't change. The IVCA have strict rules about this, and riders are sanctioned after almost every race for various violations.

Cond0r

Inquitus wrote: »

Aye Lenny, the problem here was the descent was about 1.5 cars wide, twisty, with blind corner after blind corner. The first time down 4 cars were coming up, you can't send 130 people down a descent at 50kph when the road is soo narrow. From what I gather now the intention was to restrict traffic to the same direction as the race on this section, only it took them 2 laps to get their act together.

Only for that one section. There were still cars coming the opposite direction on every other part of the circuit.

XtotheZ

The cost of the national crit last year which was on closed roads was absolutely ridiculous for cost of closing them.

Was there actually 130 in the a3 race??

Inquitus

XtotheZ wrote: »

The cost of the national crit last year which was on closed roads was absolutely ridiculous for cost of closing them.

Was there actually 130 in the a3 race??

About 130 regged, obviously some would not have turned up, no idea how many actually signed on on the day and raced.

Inquitus

XtotheZ wrote: »

The cost of the national crit last year which was on closed roads was absolutely ridiculous for cost of closing them.

How much was sign on for the Cyclocross in Rathfarnham last week? the main street was closed there and I doubt the signon was more than 25 yoyos?

Cond0r

Inquitus wrote: »

About 130 regged, obviously some would not have turned up, no idea how many actually signed on on the day and raced.

I heard somewhere between 80-100 started.

lennymc

I heard a figure of either 1k or 2k to close the roads for the stephen roache gp - that's a km or so in a housing estate. I was previously involved in organising a motorbike road race that cost something like 15k to close the roads iirc - that was a small town on the outskirts of drogheda. Road closures are prohibitively expensive.

I have raced in races where anyone who crossed the line was disqualified - it was in the cuchulainn league - and it worked very well and I see no reason why it shouldnt work in open races. I agree it is a CI issue.

Didn't know about the info pack saying that - would be interested in knowing how the cars got on the circuit if they were not supposed to be there.

XtotheZ

Inquitus wrote: »

How much was sign on for the Cyclocross in Rathfarnham last week? the main street was closed there and I doubt the signon was more than 25 yoyos?

ive no idea, but i persume the price is objective. As everyone said the roads were busy so persumably thatll make it more expensive

Cond0r

lennymc wrote: »

I heard a figure of either 1k or 2k to close the roads for the stephen roache gp - that's a km or so in a housing estate. I was previously involved in organising a motorbike road race that cost something like 15k to close the roads iirc - that was a small town on the outskirts of drogheda. Road closures are prohibitively expensive.

I don't think this is the case. AFAIK, the cost associated with closing roads is:
1. The administrative fee from the local authority to advertise in local media, which is on the order of hundreds, not thousands.
2. The cost to have a traffic management company come up with a plan for diversions,etc (I'm not entirely sure of the cost for this, but it could be expensive).

In the case of national championships, for 1., CI should step in and cover the cost. Plain and simple. For 2., CI should have a contracted company that can provide plans like this at reasonable cost, effectively subsidising it.

The real problem here is that the issues are not recognised by Cycling Ireland.

lennymc wrote: »

I have raced in races where anyone who crossed the line was disqualified - it was in the cuchulainn league - and it worked very well and I see no reason why it shouldnt work in open races. I agree it is a CI issue.

I totally agree, and really wish it was the case. The one guy I saw, as someone previously mentioned, that just barely missed hitting the van was frightening.

Cond0r

lennymc wrote: »

Didn't know about the info pack saying that - would be interested in knowing how the cars got on the circuit if they were not supposed to be there.

Well, marshals are not legally allowed to stop traffic. I only saw Gardaí posted at the junction with the R179. So, if traffic approached from any of the other sections and wanted to go onto the circuit all the marshals can do is advise them of the danger and ask them to take an alternate route, but as you said yourself they're within their rights to be there.

Civilians can only stop traffic if the road has been closed.

lennymc

Inquitus wrote: »

How much was sign on for the Cyclocross in Rathfarnham last week? the main street was closed there and I doubt the signon was more than 25 yoyos?

I think that was organised by the rathfarnham festival people rather than by the cx organisers.

pprendeville

@Condor: You're comments are spot on and should be brought up at the annual CI AGM. First of all I was of the impression that you were going a bit overboard in terms of ye dangers (poor surfaces, one way traffic, dangerous descents) as most races I've done have a combination of these. However, the fact that it's a National Champs and the entry fee was more than the norm, one should expect top notch. That blind sinkhole was ridiculously dangerous. I did a lap before the race at slow speed and never saw it and never saw it either during the race but knew of its rough whereabouts. I was to the right of the Aquablue rider when he went down. Some bang and he capsized. I hope he's ok. He was going pretty well too. It was only when I did a warm down thtt I saw it. Unbelievable it wasn't marked. If local riders knew of it, you'd imagine organisers would have also. Any roads where cattle cross usually tend to have really rough sections. There was a cattle shed an crossing 3/4 way down the descent and that section up to 300m down the only right hand turn were really rough. My bottle came out at one stage and somehow it landed only left foot and I managed to keep it balanced and get it back in. Lionel Messi would have been proud of the handling skills I showed.

My own race was up and down. Haven't raced enough this year to be in he mix at the end and so yesterday proved the same. I was comfortable most times up the hill but probably because some guys weren't pushing it to the limit. Last time up I cramped and had to pull in or else I would have stalled and blocked other riders. Think Swords lost the team prize over that but wouldn't like to have blocked others. Anyway I would have fallen off the bike as I was in the point of completely seizing up. I also got a little overexcited going into the big hill on lap 6 or 7, took it too fast and skidded about 10ft and had to unclip. Mercifully I didn't hot anyone so I apologise for that. I thought people, including myself, we're afraid to let rip for fear of having nothing left or the next time up the hill. That was my thinking anyway and something I kind of regret now not giving it a good lash and seeing what happened. Was happy to finish though albeit late. I did get to see the Jnr finish though as a result. Spectacular is an understatement. 2 legends, whether nationally or internationally, in the making. Actually, there's a few juniors who didn't place who will probably go onto bigger and better things please God also. O'Loughlin and Dunbar went past like 2 rockets in the sprint. Great stuff. I passed O'Loughlin and he was crying. Shows how much it meant to him.

bwalsh1983

lennymc wrote: »

I heard a figure of either 1k or 2k to close the roads for the stephen roache gp - that's a km or so in a housing estate. I was previously involved in organising a motorbike road race that cost something like 15k to close the roads iirc - that was a small town on the outskirts of drogheda. Road closures are prohibitively expensive.

.

From working with the county council on small scale events this is true. Road closures are hugely expensive and you also have to factor in the garda into this, I know of one race route altered last year due to the change in SI halfway through the planning of it, this kind of administrative change can have a huge bearing on events for the tenure of these positions.

That being said, the points about CI being involved in their own Nationals and doing their utmost to ensure safe racing is a valid one, if that is working with the local authority and the Garda wih the host club/organisers then they ned to do this more proactively.

pmurp141

bwalsh1983 wrote: »

I was in this group, didnt position myself well at the start and was out the back immediately, had to get back on on the tailwind section but when we did rejoin I was good from there. The descents on the bottom/tailwind section were probably fastest on the first and second laps.

I concur with the good route, well organised etc. for the couple of people who crashed (me included) 95% stayed upright.

i hope you were 1 of the workers so , i panicked and overworked myself to get back before the climb,

elchupanebrey

I thought it was negative enough at times in that lads would jump up to a few who had broke away and then sit on instead of riding for a bit to see if a gap could be got. Most of the attacks that took place involved a rider sprinting for 200 metres then looking over the shoulder and sitting up. No real commitment to getting away, bar the few who seemed to ride off the front and stay out front for a lap or two.

All in all apart from the few cars on corners going down the descent the first couple of times it was safe enough I thought.

Also had a near one with the crater at one point!!

dermabrasion

View from a team car:
Hit the crater nearly each lap, shook the car. Bottles every where. That was seriously a big hole.
Too many riders for those roads, and indeed for the cavalcade when on coming cars met. This was dangerous when we were passing stragglers or lads getting back on where we had to veer-in to avoid a collision and hope there was not a rider behind or beside us.
Very busy traffic on the main road. Many cars pulled over and stopped. But you can see the fear and surprise in the faces of some of the drivers.
Garda controlled the second intersection well, and they needed to as its a pretty busy spot.
I thought it was a tough (looking) challenge as a physical test, but just not big enough or quiet enough for the field.
Lastly, bunch of dejected A3 vets lined the road who were not allowed sign on as they had vet designation on their license. Because Vets have their own championship, (as do Juniors) they cant sign on to the A3. Those are the rules, but I have to say, it should have been clear in the promotional material, which has been pointed out as being nearly a secret.

Actual Paramedic

Still waiting for results, are they posted anywhere yet?

bwalsh1983

dermabrasion wrote: »

View from a team car:
Hit the crater nearly each lap, shook the car. Bottles every where. That was seriously a big hole.
Too many riders for those roads, and indeed for the cavalcade when on coming cars met. This was dangerous when we were passing stragglers or lads getting back on where we had to veer-in to avoid a collision and hope there was not a rider behind or beside us.
Very busy traffic on the main road. Many cars pulled over and stopped. But you can see the fear and surprise in the faces of some of the drivers.
Garda controlled the second intersection well, and they needed to as its a pretty busy spot.
I thought it was a tough (looking) challenge as a physical test, but just not big enough or quiet enough for the field.
Lastly, bunch of dejected A3 vets lined the road who were not allowed sign on as they had vet designation on their license. Because Vets have their own championship, (as do Juniors) they cant sign on to the A3. Those are the rules, but I have to say, it should have been clear in the promotional material, which has been pointed out as being nearly a secret.

Would the organisers have been able to note their vet licences on recieving their entrance fees and contact them then? If so that should have happened and saved a fair few of them the trip.

killalanerr

bwalsh1983 wrote: »

Would the organisers have been able to note their vet licences on recieving their entrance fees and contact them then? If so that should have happened and saved a fair few of them the trip.

Would the vets not have raised this them self'with the club before the event. it is well know that vets can not ride this event . The only way a vet can ride is to have there licence changed to remove the v from it . Then they would not be able to ride the vets championship its one or the other .always been that way.

Cond0r

bwalsh1983 wrote: »

Would the organisers have been able to note their vet licences on recieving their entrance fees and contact them then? If so that should have happened and saved a fair few of them the trip.

Not AFAIK. The Vet designation is only on the licence, in place of 'Elite', and can't be inferred from the license number or anything like that.

It may have been possible to restrict registration to this licence type using Cycling Ireland's new online event registration system though, if it had been used.

killalanerr

bwalsh1983 wrote: »

Would the organisers have been able to note their vet licences on recieving their entrance fees and contact them then? If so that should have happened and saved a fair few of them the trip.

Would the vets not have raised this them self'with the club before the event. it is well know that vets can not ride this event . The only way a vet can ride is to have there licence changed to remove the v from it . Then they would not be able to ride the vets championship its one or the other .always been that way.

Cond0r

killalanerr wrote: »

Would the vets not have raised this them self'with the club before the event. it is well know that vets can not ride this event . The only way a vet can ride is to have there licence changed to remove the v from it . Then they would not be able to ride the vets championship its one or the other .always been that way.

Once you've opted for the veteran designation, you can't switch back to Senior/Elite in the current year. Technical Rules Section T2, 2. (h).

"It's always been that way" also doesn't help people that weren't aware of it. It's not well known to newcomers, of which I'm sure there are many.

killalanerr

Cond0r wrote: »

Once you've opted for the veteran designation, you can't switch back to Senior/Elite in the current year. Technical Rules Section T2, 2. (h).

"It's always been that way" also doesn't help people that weren't aware of it. It's not well known to newcomers, of which I'm sure there are many.

Well they know now . It's one of the down sides of online entry .The system will take all comers .I'm sure you're going to tell me that the ci system would have picked this up .was it not in the small print that it was only open to a3 elite men if not it should have been