Large Breeds and Dog Parks

AliBaba2010

Hi
So I want everyone's opinions? My dog is a Large dog, he is a year old and very friendly and playful.
I go to the local dog park every evening and get on well with most the owners, there is a mix of breeds that go there regularly and my dog gets on well with them.
Lately though there has been a lot of small breed owners who have a problem with large breeds. I go to the dog park the same time every evening and usually its empty when I get there, eventually when others show up my dog is very happy to see the other dogs. The problem I have though is some owners of small breeds show up and my dog goes over to have a sniff of their dog and to play and straight away they start panicking and dragging their dogs around on the lead, yet they stay there and because they are freaking out so much I have to keep my dog on a lead. When I take my dog off the lead and he approaches their dogs they pick their dogs up and start freaking out again. A lot of the time they are very rude to me. Thing is my dog has not showed one sign of aggression towards them or their dogs, he just wants to play!
I don't understand this behaviour, I mean if you are going to take your dog to a dog park you must know other dogs are going to be there, so why are they acting like this?
I have no idea why they think they can rule the roost? Why has their dogs more right to be there than mine? And why are large breeds treated this way?
It annoys me a lot and I feel the council should provide separated dog parks, one part for small breeds and one for large breeds.
I have no problem with small breeds or their owners, just these particular owners I have met, I love when all the owners get on and all the breeds play together happy. My dog is very affectionate with small dogs and puppies.
Anyway am I right in thinking if you can't handle dogs acting like dogs, you shouldn't come to these facilities?
What do you all think?

VonVix

I have found a lot of small dog owners are generally quite fearful of large dogs loose in dog parks around their dogs. It's not your fault, but I think a lot of people find it hard to trust other people and their large dogs at the dog park, there have been countless times people have brought dogs with high prey drives to my local dog park resulting in many upset/unhappy owners. I think the main thing is is that they simply don't know you or your dog.

At my local dog park there have been a lot of bad experiences between huskys and small dogs in particular, even I have had bad experiences with huskys at the dog park, which is the main reason why I don't go any more as they are a popular breed in my area. And I don't even have small dogs, mine are medium sized.

I think like you said the biggest problem with dog parks in Ireland is that most of them as far as I'm aware are just one large open space... there's no area's sectioned off especially for small dogs and their owners. Small dogs are often far more comfortable interacting with dogs of their own size from my experience, and some large dogs end up looking at the little ones as toys which leads to an all round bad experience for small dogs and their owners unfortunately.

Another thing too, is not enough people at dog parks have good recall with their dogs (again, from my experience at my local dog park), I've noticed a lot of owners don't care if their dog is too much for another dog... it's always a case of "he's just playing" which isn't fair on the other dog at all. It's our responsibility as dog owners in dog parks to be looking out for the dogs our dog is interacting with, not just our own dog.

Y2KBOS86

I have a largish Northern breed dog as well ( Malamute ) and encountered the same problems at dog parks, which is why I stopped going.

Dog parks are dangerous anyway imo, you can't have a 3kg terrior playing with a 80kg wolfhound that have just met, it's just asking for trouble.Dogs are animals and unpredictable, they can just snap.

Having small dog and big dog parks sounds okay in theory, but the size difference between some breeds is too large.

I wouldn't like my 40kg Malamute playing with a strange 80kg Great Dane, Wolfhound, Tosa that it just met, it would take just a second for a dog that size to do serious damage to my dog.

Trying to break up a fight between two big dogs is a no no anyway.

If two small breed dogs go at it, it's easily broke up, if two large breeds go at it, the untrained are risking limbs trying to break that up.

Your better off without the dog parks OP, as your dog gets older you might see it's behavior towards small breeds change drastically.

Northern breeds like Huskies and Samoyed's have very high prey drives, they were bred to see small animals as food, it's the kind of breeding that is in their dna and very hard to suppress.

Siberian Huskies in particular have this instinct, they were released into wild every summer to fend for themselves, great with people but can be unpredictable with small animals, Samoyed's, Malamute's, Akita's etc have similar prey drive.

For that reason I would avoid dog parks, you might be lucky that you never encounter this problem, but most owners of these breeds have a story of a near miss.

AliBaba2010

Thanks for the replies Its much appreciated.
I understand the fear that people have because of size, its just very unfortunate that my dog has to suffer because of that fear.
My dog just likes to sniff them and chase them for a few minutes then he gets bored, hes like that with all breeds. When I say chase I don't mean literally chase as in the smaller dog is scared I mean where their both running around happily.
My dog was playing with a teacup maltese just licking her and sniffing her, imagine that size difference haha.

tk123

My issue with dog parks as I've said many times on here is that a lot of people just let their dogs run wild in them. There's appropriate play and there's inappropriate play - most owners think it's ok for their dog to run amok because "he's only playing". I then have a problem with my 5 year old retriever because he'll go over and give out to the dog who's being a bully - by bully I mean pushing other dogs around, pinning/knocking them down, charging, humping etc and generally being obnoxious.

OP how is your dog approaching the other dogs - is he rushing over to them guns blazing or politely approaching them and waiting to see if they approach him etc? I agree 100% with being choosy as to who your dog is interacting with so generally avoid dog parks at all costs because you have to accept there's going to be out of control dogs there. I'd rather go to a social hour at a training centre where I have a fair idea of the type of dogs and owners who'll be there and also that there's staff on hand keeping an eye on things.


Part of owning a large breed dog (i have 2 of them) is accepting that some people are not comfortable with bigger dogs. It can be a PITA at times but it's just the way it is - you can choose to ignore it and let them deal with it or you can be responsible and move on so your dog doesn't potentially get you or themselves into a situation that could have lasting consequences.

Vel

I loved the Marley Park dog park when it first opened. We would go early in the morning when there were very few people using it. We did use it a few occassions during busy periods and it was a completely different experience - hellish! I've come full circle on how I feel about them now, and unless it was during an off-peak time I don't think I would ever use them again.

AliBaba2010

I love the dog park I won't stop going just because of a few owners. I've been going just less than a year and honestly the only problem I have are overly judgemental small dog owners. I actually prefer peak times when there are a lot of large breeds there.
In reply to the question about how my dog approaches he sits at the gate when he sees them coming and I stand a few inches away, he'll let them come in and he'll sniff the dogs first and if they are willing to play he will play with them if they are not he gets bored, this is when the owners aren't freaking out, when the dogs are dragged away he becomes more interested in them because the owner is making a fuss.
With regards to appropriate and inappropriate play, with breeds that are similar or larger size anything goes, its something that all the large breed owners agree with amongst ourselves in the dog park. The only time we intervene is when aggression is shown, and not a mere growl because a growl is a warning but if the dogs look like they are about to fight we distract them.
There is a few things I do to prevent fights between my dog and another dominant male, firstly I muzzle my dog so he physically can't bite and it diminishes his feelings of dominance. I keep an eye on his body posture and if he growls I'll know when he's warning or when he's going to fight. I watch for eye contact if eye contact happens I turn my dogs head to break the contact. In saying this, I am telling you only what I do if a dominant dog shows up, my dog never starts a fight but he has been attacked and stood his ground, this is why I use the muzzle to make my dog submissive and it works.
One thing I will say my dog has never been in a fight with a dog smaller than him, he has been attacked by small dogs but he just walks off, because usually aggression only happens between dogs of the same sex, size and age. I would never let my dog play rough with a small dog either, only a large breeds once the other owner is happy with it.
You see I think too many people treat their animals like humans, its in a dogs nature to act a certain way with one another. When you take your dog to a dog park you should be prepared for a variety of breeds that will want to play with your dog, if you can't accept this then why come?
Also, I think people should educate themselves about certain behaviour, whats okay and whats not. I think everyone who owns a dog should learn about Tight Lead Syndrome - When around other dogs, you should not be dragging your dog about on its lead, stay calm and don't pull them hard, this leads to aggressive behaviour, turn their heads instead. When people take their dogs to the dog park they should take them in, let the other dogs suss their dog out and vice versa, then let them off the lead, if your dog is uncomfortable remove them from the entire situation. Never panic, your dogs picks up on it and becomes very anxious, which the other dogs pick up on too and they take advantage of this.
PEOPLE DON'T TREAT YOUR DOG LIKE A CHILD!

tk123

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

I love the dog park I won't stop going just because of a few owners. I've been going just less than a year and honestly the only problem I have are overly judgemental small dog owners. I actually prefer peak times when there are a lot of large breeds there.
In reply to the question about how my dog approaches he sits at the gate when he sees them coming and I stand a few inches away, he'll let them come in and he'll sniff the dogs first and if they are willing to play he will play with them if they are not he gets bored, this is when the owners aren't freaking out, when the dogs are dragged away he becomes more interested in them because the owner is making a fuss.
With regards to appropriate and inappropriate play, with breeds that are similar or larger size anything goes, its something that all the large breed owners agree with amongst ourselves in the dog park. The only time we intervene is when aggression is shown, and not a mere growl because a growl is a warning but if the dogs look like they are about to fight we distract them.
There is a few things I do to prevent fights between my dog and another dominant male, firstly I muzzle my dog so he physically can't bite and it diminishes his feelings of dominance ( husky's are very dominant breeds ). I keep an eye on his body posture and if he growls I'll know when he's warning or when he's going to fight. I watch for eye contact if eye contact happens I turn my dogs head to break the contact. In saying this, I am telling you only what I do if a dominant dog ( usually another husky ) shows up, my dog never starts a fight but he has been attacked and stood his ground, this is why I use the muzzle to make my dog submissive and it works.
One thing I will say my dog has never been in a fight with a dog smaller than him, he has been attacked by small dogs but he just walks off, because usually aggression only happens between dogs of the same sex, size and age. I would never let my dog play rough with a small dog either, only a large breeds once the other owner is happy with it.
You see I think too many people treat their animals like humans, its in a dogs nature to act a certain way with one another. When you take your dog to a dog park you should be prepared for a variety of breeds that will want to play with your dog, if you can't accept this then why come?
Also, I think people should educate themselves about certain behaviour, whats okay and whats not. I think everyone who owns a dog should learn about Tight Lead Syndrome - When around other dogs, you should not be dragging your dog about on its lead, stay calm and don't pull them hard, this leads to aggressive behaviour, turn their heads instead. When people take their dogs to the dog park they should take them in, let the other dogs suss their dog out and vice versa, then let them off the lead, if your dog is uncomfortable remove them from the entire situation. Never panic, your dogs picks up on it and becomes very anxious, which the other dogs pick up on too and they take advantage of this.
PEOPLE DON'T TREAT YOUR DOG LIKE A CHILD!

As they say in After Hours 'The ironing is delicious'

There's so much wrong with your post I don't know where to begin.

VonVix

Summed it up well TK, I could have written a couple of paragraphs in response but yeah!

murray.eoghan

i have a large Labrador/ pointer and a small jack russel, both of which are friendly to other dogs. But if you have a lead on them they tend to get scared and growl towards other dogs. And vice versa.

VonVix

murray.eoghan wrote: »

i have a large Labrador/ pointer and a small jack russel, both of which are friendly to other dogs. But if you have a lead on them they tend to get scared and growl towards other dogs. And vice versa.

My dogs do respond better to other dogs when they are off leash. Often a leash can make a dog feel trapped which can cause a fear response, then on the flip side you see those dogs get more and more barky and pull towards other dogs on the leash when off leash they are as friendly as anything, they're often experiencing leash frustration, and a lot of people mistake that for an aggressive dog.

muddypaws

OP, you liked Y2KBOS86's post, so please go back and read it again, no mention of dominance at all, but explanation about high prey drive.

First of all, sorry to be pedantic, but neither sibes nor samoyeds are large breeds, they are both medium. A malamute would be a large breed.

Logically, how are huskies dominant when they traditionally have to be one of, if not, the, most pack focused, cooperative breed you can get. If you have a team of huskies, how well do you think they could work together if one dominated the others, they would be too scared surely? Some will be more confident than others, and they are independent, definitely, dominant, I don't think so.

Again logically, how would you feel if your hands were tied behind your back, and somebody came over to punch you? You would be unable to defend yourself, so would get stressed and worried, the same as your dog in its muzzle. I'm not saying that a dog with a known bite history shouldn't be muzzled.

I wouldn't take a husky or husky cross to a dog park unless it was booked specifically for dogs of a certain size, I wouldn't take the chance with any small dogs at all.

Whispered

Just with regards to the northern breeds. I've had the pleasure of working in a place with many loose dogs of all sizes. While I would consider it far from ideal for some individual dogs, the northern breeds and in particular the mals were consistently some of the best with smaller and younger dogs. There seems to be something naturally very caring and gentle about the majority I've seen in that situation. Really lovely dogs. I know muddy paws is an authority of these breeds so it seems odd to have had a different experience with them but it's something I noticed a lot at the time. It's hard not to notice a big polar bear of a dog on his back while a dog the size of his head pretends to bash him.

Pretzill

Size is subjective - once when walking two of my border collies in a local park - they ran towards a lady with a small dog - tails wagging usual bc 'pet me please' expression - the lady screamed, picked up her dog and turned to run - we were only feet from them and immeadiately put them on the lead apologised, tried to explain they wouldn't be a danger - but were met with the response 'big dogs shouldn't be allowed off their lead in the park' all dogs were off lead btw.

But I had never considered my dogs to be big breeds - medium yes - but from her perspective it may have well been two rabied dogs running at her - If I ever go to the park now, it's on the lead, even walking rural roads it's on the lead and bc's are very well behaved off lead.

Thankfully I'm surrounded by loads of feilds where the dogs can play and run free - not much chance of socialising with other dogs but plenty of scents and smells.

Sometimes people can be nervous dog walkers -

muddypaws

Whispered wrote: »

Just with regards to the northern breeds. I've had the pleasure of working in a place with many loose dogs of all sizes. While I would consider it far from ideal for some individual dogs, the northern breeds and in particular the mals were consistently some of the best with smaller and younger dogs. There seems to be something naturally very caring and gentle about the majority I've seen in that situation. Really lovely dogs. I know muddy paws is an authority of these breeds so it seems odd to have had a different experience with them but it's something I noticed a lot at the time. It's hard not to notice a big polar bear of a dog on his back while a dog the size of his head pretends to bash him.

That is really interesting Whispered, and I've seen videos and photos of your work place with that happening. I think the real issue is if you have 2 or more of them together, the pack mentality takes over. A friend brought her GSD and westie to play in my field, I chose very carefully which sibes I let in there, because of the westie. Rooney fell in love with him, I wasn't sure at first if it was love or he wanted to eat him, but it was love

Whispered

I always thought they were like goofy big brothers or something. "Oh no you got me" *flops over onto side* love them.

Mr. Flibble

Don't let it put you off dog parks. I frequent Marley and Deerpark dog parks and my dog (boxer) absolutely loves them. There have been times that I've had to separate him from other dogs, but that's just the way it is. No reason not to go back and have good times later on.

AliBaba2010

tk123 wrote: »

As they say in After Hours 'The ironing is delicious'

There's so much wrong with your post I don't know where to begin.

Good Stuff

AliBaba2010

muddypaws wrote: »

OP, you liked Y2KBOS86's post, so please go back and read it again, no mention of dominance at all, but explanation about high prey drive.

I know he didn't mention it, I was just explaining my situation and those of the other owners I know.
Cheers for your input

AliBaba2010

muddypaws wrote: »

.
First of all, sorry to be pedantic, but neither sibes nor samoyeds are large breeds, they are
both medium. A malamute would be a large breed.

My dog is the same size of a malamute.

muddypaws wrote: »

Logically, how are huskies dominant when they traditionally have to be one of, if not, the, most pack focused, cooperative breed you can get. If you have a team of huskies, how well do you think they could work together if one dominated the others, they would be too scared surely? Some will be more confident than others, and they are independent, definitely, dominant, I don't think so.

Husky are a dominant breed, just do a google search and you will see statements such as this...
" When dealing with huskies, you will more than likely deal with dominance. Huskies are alot closer related to the wolf ancestor than most other breeds of dogs. This combined wih the fact that they were bred to work as packs with a clear lead dog, as opposed to working as individuals, and also that they would roam free as wild packs during the summer, makes the pack hierarchy really reinforced in huskies."

muddypaws wrote: »

Again logically, how would you feel if your hands were tied behind your back, and somebody came over to punch you? You would be unable to defend yourself, so would get stressed and worried, the same as your dog in its muzzle. I'm not saying that a dog with a known bite history shouldn't be muzzled.

I wouldn't take a husky or husky cross to a dog park unless it was booked specifically for dogs of a certain size, I wouldn't take the chance with any small dogs at all.

Regarding the muzzle, its for my dogs protection. If he wasn't wearing it and another male dog of the same size was being dominant he would fight with it, its not something I'm willing to risk. A certain major dog rescue service recommended this as a way to control dominance. I would never leave another dog to attack him or anything I am just blocking his dominant behaviour. Also, out of all the dogs in a dog park the muzzled one is the safest and some small dog owners feel more comfortable if the dog is muzzled so they ask me to do so.

Zulu

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

...When I take my dog off the lead and he approaches their dogs they pick their dogs up and start freaking out again. A lot of the time they are very rude to me...
What do you all think?

I think there's your problem right there. Clearly they don't have a clue. I'd (hard as it might be) ignore them. Let your dog at it - if he's not being aggressive, it's a dog park.

The reality of it is, if they continue with their actions, they'll breed fear into their dogs, and their dogs will become aggressive. They're clowns, ignore them.

Campingplaces

While dog parks are nice in theory I would never use one anymore.

I have a medium sized dog, a little smaller than a Labrador but not much. Used to bring him to Marley dog park all the time and he loved it. He used to love playing with other dogs and would never be aggressive or too boisterous.

One day a few years ago in Marley he was attacked by another dog. The other dog was off the lead and it was a completely unprovoked attack. I had asked the owner is it alright for the dogs to play, is he friendly, and was told yes it's fine he's friendly. The dog just snapped.

My dog came away with just a small cut on his ear but has never been the same again. Will not play with other dogs and is now terrified of any dog. If a dog comes over to him he will try to run away and if the dog does not leave him alone he will act very defensively which seems aggressive and snappy. He never goes over to another dog anymore.

It is just a shame because my dog can no longer enjoy a dog park and it's very sad to see a once happy playful dog not being able to enjoy the company of other dogs.

This is why I can completely understand an owner of a small dog freaking out when a large dog runs over. In my experience most are fine but some can be unpredictable and aggressive

AliBaba2010

I agree with you 100% Zulu. Thats what I'm saying constantly they'll make their dog scared of other dogs.

tk123

Zulu wrote: »

I think there's your problem right there. Clearly they don't have a clue.

Granted it's a dog park so they should allow for out of control dogs... but going by the OP's posts they're the one without a clue and exactly why dog parks are crap. And for the record I treat my dogs as dogs - not kids and not wolves...

AliBaba2010

Campingplaces wrote: »

While dog parks are nice in theory I would never use one anymore.

I have a medium sized dog, a little smaller than a Labrador but not much. Used to bring him to Marley dog park all the time and he loved it. He used to love playing with other dogs and would never be aggressive or too boisterous.

One day a few years ago in Marley he was attacked by another dog. The other dog was off the lead and it was a completely unprovoked attack. I had asked the owner is it alright for the dogs to play, is he friendly, and was told yes it's fine he's friendly. The dog just snapped.

My dog came away with just a small cut on his ear but has never been the same again. Will not play with other dogs and is now terrified of any dog. If a dog comes over to him he will try to run away and if the dog does not leave him alone he will act very defensively which seems aggressive and snappy. He never goes over to another dog anymore.

It is just a shame because my dog can no longer enjoy a dog park and it's very sad to see a once happy playful dog not being able to enjoy the company of other dogs.

This is why I can completely understand an owner of a small dog freaking out when a large dog runs over. In my experience most are fine but some can be unpredictable and aggressive

Thats very sad. Maybe the other dog wasn't vicious and maybe it wasn't provoked but sometimes dogs just snap at each other, they just don't like the look of one another and it can happen at any time and any size breed will do this, not just the bigger ones. Unfortunately its just their natural way of thinking.
I feel terrible for your poor dog though, when my dog was a pup he was picked up by a dog by the throat and swung about, for ages after he was petrified of other dogs. He eventually got his confidence back.

Jawgap

I've never been to a dog park (with my Newfs) but I do spend a lot of time on the beach with them.

I have had some strange reactions from owners of smaller dogs - one even questioned me on the suitability of having two big dogs like that when there were children around!!! I tried to explain to her the temperament of the breed, but I think she just saw 'big dogs.' Most fellow dog owners are happy to let them interact with their own dogs, unless there is a reaction.

Most of the time if my two see another dog, they'll trot over to investigate further and leave it at that - any kind of aggression from the other dog (no matter how small it is) and the big feckin' cowards retreat! Although the older one has taken to just sitting or lying down and staring incredulously at the yapper.

Zulu

tk123 wrote: »

Granted it's a dog park so they should allow for out of control dogs... but going by the OP's posts they're the one without a clue and exactly why dog parks are crap. And for the record I treat my dogs as dogs - not kids and not wolves...

Isn't that what I said? Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing.

AliBaba2010

tk123 wrote: »

Granted it's a dog park so they should allow for out of control dogs... but going by the OP's posts they're the one without a clue and exactly why dog parks are crap. And for the record I treat my dogs as dogs - not kids and not wolves...

Hmmm, really? Can you explain how I haven't a clue?

AliBaba2010

Jawgap wrote: »

I've never been to a dog park (with my Newfs) but I do spend a lot of time on the beach with them.

I have had some strange reactions from owners of smaller dogs - one even questioned me on the suitability of having two big dogs like that when there were children around!!! I tried to explain to her the temperament of the breed, but I think she just saw 'big dogs.' Most fellow dog owners are happy to let them interact with their own dogs, unless there is a reaction.

Most of the time if my two see another dog, they'll trot over to investigate further and leave it at that - any kind of aggression from the other dog (no matter how small it is) and the big feckin' cowards retreat! Although the older one has taken to just sitting or lying down and staring incredulously at the yapper.

Aw I love Newfs, they are such a beautiful breed in every way. The woman who questioned you is an example of uneducated and overly opinionated person :P .

Y2KBOS86

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Hmmm, really? Can you explain how I haven't a clue?

Putting a muzzle on your poor dog in a dog park!!

Complete madness.

Your putting your dog in serious danger doing that.

What happens if your dog gets attacked by a much bigger dog?

How is he going protect himself?

You won't be able to get a big dog off him, your dog won't be able to protect himself.

borderlinemeath

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

My dog is the same size of a malamute.



Husky are a dominant breed, just do a google search and you will see statements such as this...
" When dealing with huskies, you will more than likely deal with dominance. Huskies are alot closer related to the wolf ancestor than most other breeds of dogs. This combined wih the fact that they were bred to work as packs with a clear lead dog, as opposed to working as individuals, and also that they would roam free as wild packs during the summer, makes the pack hierarchy really reinforced in huskies."

But you don't have a pack of huskies? You have one, and when it wants to play or interact with other dogs it's not being dominant, it's excited and wants to play.

Regarding the muzzle, its for my dogs protection. If he wasn't wearing it and another male dog of the same size was being dominant he would fight with it, its not something I'm willing to risk. A certain major dog rescue service recommended this as a way to control dominance. I would never leave another dog to attack him or anything I am just blocking his dominant behaviour. Also, out of all the dogs in a dog park the muzzled one is the safest and some small dog owners feel more comfortable if the dog is muzzled so they ask me to do so.

You are putting your dog at risk by muzzling him. Other dogs will pick up on his body language, muzzle or not and if he's giving out aggressive vibes then there will be a fight and because you have muzzled your dog, you've rendered him defenceless.

I hope you're using a baskerville muzzle rather than a fabric one, dogs can't sweat and pant to release heat so if your dog cannot pant properly, particularly in this particular weather, with a double coated northern breed, you're putting him at risk of overheating.

And google is certainly you're friend - you really should do some research on "dominance", "pack hierarchy" etc because it's all been scientifically disproven. Dogs don't want to take over the world, the study that was originally done on wolves was on a captive pack that didn't even behave like a wild wolf pack should. The original author admitted he got it wrong, science has proved it's wrong, but lazy uneducated trainers (the Cesar Milan type) love to label dogs as dominant because it gives a reason for unwanted behaviour. And the methods they use to make the dog submissive are so, so dangerous - the dog will only submit out of fear, rather than because he doesn't want to do the behaviour. Eventually all the pent up fear will boil over and he will revert to the unwanted behaviour - be it aggressiveness or biting and usually without any warning signals.

I would be very wary of the advice you're taking regarding training with a muzzle and I would urge you to google "dominance theory disproven" or similar. You've been reading the wrong articles.

muddypaws

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Husky are a dominant breed, just do a google search and you will see statements such as this...
" When dealing with huskies, you will more than likely deal with dominance. Huskies are alot closer related to the wolf ancestor than most other breeds of dogs. This combined wih the fact that they were bred to work as packs with a clear lead dog, as opposed to working as individuals, and also that they would roam free as wild packs during the summer, makes the pack hierarchy really reinforced in huskies."

I'd rather get my information from people and sites with experience and knowledge, than google and find articles that come from people without. Northern breeds are ancient breeds, and have been domesticated for thousands of years, they are no more closely related to wolves than chihuahuas are. Funnily enough, I've never yet seen a husky team with a single lead dog, there are usually two, and each team would have others that could be swapped in if and when needed. Some teams use a fan hitch, this is actually what most inuit teams use, where the dogs don't run behind each other, but are spread out.

From personal experience, I have a dog who would not be dominant at all, going by your definition, in fact, he would be classed as an omega. If I put food down, he would allow himself to be driven off it by other dogs. However, put his harness on, attach him to the gangline, and he is one of my best lead dogs, taking his turns brilliantly and going past all distractions. He also has a fairly low prey drive, for a husky. I've actually been engaged in a discussion on a husky page this morning about prey drive, whether its down to a dog's individual personality or breeding, and the discussion has led onto good lead dogs etc.

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Regarding the muzzle, its for my dogs protection. If he wasn't wearing it and another male dog of the same size was being dominant he would fight with it, its not something I'm willing to risk. A certain major dog rescue service recommended this as a way to control dominance. I would never leave another dog to attack him or anything I am just blocking his dominant behaviour. Also, out of all the dogs in a dog park the muzzled one is the safest and some small dog owners feel more comfortable if the dog is muzzled so they ask me to do so.

Here's an excellent link that will hopefully help to explain why the whole concept of dominance is no longer scientifically valid. Its very sad that a major dog rescue service is so behind the times, but then people used to believe that the world was flat. http://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/pack-theory-debunked/

I did say that sometimes dog need to be muzzled, but if a dog needs to be muzzled because it is dog aggressive, then the probability is that dog is fear aggressive, and placing it in a position where other dogs can hurt it, but it can't defend itself can be extremely damaging. So, in my opinion, an aggressive or fearful dog should not be in a dog park.

Campingplaces

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Thats very sad. Maybe the other dog wasn't vicious and maybe it wasn't provoked but sometimes dogs just snap at each other, they just don't like the look of one another and it can happen at any time and any size breed will do this, not just the bigger ones. Unfortunately its just their natural way of thinking.
I feel terrible for your poor dog though, when my dog was a pup he was picked up by a dog by the throat and swung about, for ages after he was petrified of other dogs. He eventually got his confidence back.

I can understand that naturally some dogs can just not get along and snap at each other but the owner seemed to think that her dog was "just playing" and he can be a bit "boisterous" sometimes which makes me think that she believes this behaviour to be normal.

Im pretty sure the dog didn't nip, it snapped, my dog was bleeding badly enough on his ear and I think some dog owners don't understand the difference between aggressive and playful behaviour.

If I was to ever get another dog I would walk it in a local park where I know the dogs and owners, not a dog park. I just wouldn't trust owners that I don't know. My dog will never be the same and it is sad to see him without any doggy friends anymore

Nody

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Husky are a dominant breed, just do a google search and you will see statements such as this...
" When dealing with huskies, you will more than likely deal with dominance. Huskies are alot closer related to the wolf ancestor than most other breeds of dogs. This combined wih the fact that they were bred to work as packs with a clear lead dog, as opposed to working as individuals, and also that they would roam free as wild packs during the summer, makes the pack hierarchy really reinforced in huskies."

I can google search and find out that the earth is flat, Obama is really not an American and was married to a man before his current marriage and that the moon landing never happened as well. All those statements are as true as the google statement you qouted as well. However it has scientifically been proven that there's is nothing, nada, zilch, behind the so called alpha male/dominance folk stories that people still keep bringing up.

The whole thing goes back to an old study on wolves which the author of the study has come out and stated as well was flawed and the conclusions were wrong (this is beyond the whole thing of the breed separation, domestication etc.). Sadly the stories are still spread as truth and is used as a reason for things such as choke collars or hitting dogs if they don't behave to "prove who's the alpha male of the pack" when in reality all it works out as in practice is animal abuse.

AliBaba2010

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Putting a muzzle on your poor dog in a dog park!!

Complete madness.

Your putting your dog in serious danger doing that.

What happens if your dog gets attacked by a much bigger dog?

How is he going protect himself?

You won't be able to get a big dog off him, your dog won't be able to protect himself.

If you read my post's you see I put a muzzle on him when other dominant males come in, he isn't constantly in a muzzle. This is to prevent a fight.
Everyone has their own views on the matter of muzzles, it is a training method for my male uncastrated dominant dog... If he plays nicely with the other dominant dog with the muzzle on, it is removed!
You have no idea pal. Really you should just stop it's like you scoped this thread out and decided to bombard it with your own personal feelings.

muddypaws

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

If you read my post's you see I put a muzzle on him when other dominant males come in, he isn't constantly in a muzzle. This is to prevent a fight.
Everyone has their own views on the matter of muzzles, it is a training method for my male uncastrated dominant dog... If he plays nicely with the other dominant dog with the muzzle on, it is removed!
You have no idea pal. Really you should just stop it's like you scoped this thread out and decided to bombard it with your own personal feelings.

But people keep trying to explain to you that there is no such thing as a dominant dog - and backing it up with science and evidence.

boomerang

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Hi
some owners of small breeds show up and my dog goes over to have a sniff of their dog and to play and straight away they start panicking and dragging their dogs around on the lead, yet they stay there and because they are freaking out so much I have to keep my dog on a lead.

I totally see where they are coming from. If I had a small dog or puppy on a lead and we were approached by a big, unknown dog, you bet I'd tense up and get the owner to call back their dog. It's not fair to scare a little dog like that - no matter how friendly your dog's intentions - the small dog will be cowed by his size, and the fact that being on lead, she can't back away.

Any introductions between dogs needs to be managed. For one thing, you can't assume that the other dog wants your dog's attention - there are a lot of dogs who don't gravitate towards other dogs, and would rather be left in peace. Secondly, if it's a new dog, you've no idea how they get on with other dogs. Your dog could blunder over and come back bitten.

I think this is the problem with dog parks. Owners assume because it's a space for dogs, that this means all dogs in the park can be let off lead to just get on with it. You have to apply the same common sense as you would anywhere you walk your dogs in public where they will meet other people and other dogs.

AliBaba2010

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But you don't have a pack of huskies? You have one, and when it wants to play or interact with other dogs it's not being dominant, it's excited and wants to play.



You are putting your dog at risk by muzzling him. Other dogs will pick up on his body language, muzzle or not and if he's giving out aggressive vibes then there will be a fight and because you have muzzled your dog, you've rendered him defenceless.

I hope you're using a baskerville muzzle rather than a fabric one, dogs can't sweat and pant to release heat so if your dog cannot pant properly, particularly in this particular weather, with a double coated northern breed, you're putting him at risk of overheating.

And google is certainly you're friend - you really should do some research on "dominance", "pack hierarchy" etc because it's all been scientifically disproven. Dogs don't want to take over the world, the study that was originally done on wolves was on a captive pack that didn't even behave like a wild wolf pack should. The original author admitted he got it wrong, science has proved it's wrong, but lazy uneducated trainers (the Cesar Milan type) love to label dogs as dominant because it gives a reason for unwanted behaviour. And the methods they use to make the dog submissive are so, so dangerous - the dog will only submit out of fear, rather than because he doesn't want to do the behaviour. Eventually all the pent up fear will boil over and he will revert to the unwanted behaviour - be it aggressiveness or biting and usually without any warning signals.

I would be very wary of the advice you're taking regarding training with a muzzle and I would urge you to google "dominance theory disproven" or similar. You've been reading the wrong articles.

Again you should read my posts about when the muzzle goes on.

I don't have a pack of huskies I have a pack of a mix breeds actually. And he is the dominant pack leader, and he's the only one who hasn't been castrated and neutered.

He is not defenceless, you think that if I fight broke out between my dog and another both owners wouldn't break it up?
He has been attacked with the muzzle on and with it off and in either situation it has been broken up and sorted it out.

Not that its any of your business I do use a baskerville muzzle.

I gave you an statement as an example using google. People have different views on dominance but I for one believe it to be true, I've done my research pal thanks.

AliBaba2010

muddypaws wrote: »

I'd rather get my information from people and sites with experience and knowledge, than google and find articles that come from people without. Northern breeds are ancient breeds, and have been domesticated for thousands of years, they are no more closely related to wolves than chihuahuas are. Funnily enough, I've never yet seen a husky team with a single lead dog, there are usually two, and each team would have others that could be swapped in if and when needed. Some teams use a fan hitch, this is actually what most inuit teams use, where the dogs don't run behind each other, but are spread out.

Again if you read my previous posts I mention I speak to owners of the same breeds all the time and we all agree on the behaviour of huskies. I got my information I posted there as an example, from a blog of a husky owner.
I have a lot of knowledge about all dog breeds, I won't get into it for privacy reasons.

muddypaws wrote: »

From personal experience, I have a dog who would not be dominant at all, going by your definition, in fact, he would be classed as an omega. If I put food down, he would allow himself to be driven off it by other dogs. However, put his harness on, attach him to the gangline, and he is one of my best lead dogs, taking his turns brilliantly and going past all distractions. He also has a fairly low prey drive, for a husky. I've actually been engaged in a discussion on a husky page this morning about prey drive, whether its down to a dog's individual personality or breeding, and the discussion has led onto good lead dogs etc.

All dogs are different my dog is a dominant male husky, yours is not. Huskies are known to be dominant breed, it doesn't mean every husky is.

muddypaws wrote: »

I did say that sometimes dog need to be muzzled, but if a dog needs to be muzzled because it is dog aggressive, then the probability is that dog is fear aggressive, and placing it in a position where other dogs can hurt it, but it can't defend itself can be extremely damaging. So, in my opinion, an aggressive or fearful dog should not be in a dog park.

Nope like I said he is dominant, he hasn't got fear aggression nor is he aggressive, just dominant.

AliBaba2010

Campingplaces wrote: »

I can understand that naturally some dogs can just not get along and snap at each other but the owner seemed to think that her dog was "just playing" and he can be a bit "boisterous" sometimes which makes me think that she believes this behaviour to be normal.

Im pretty sure the dog didn't nip, it snapped, my dog was bleeding badly enough on his ear and I think some dog owners don't understand the difference between aggressive and playful behaviour.

If I was to ever get another dog I would walk it in a local park where I know the dogs and owners, not a dog park. I just wouldn't trust owners that I don't know. My dog will never be the same and it is sad to see him without any doggy friends anymore

Well I agree if the dog snapped and really hurt your dog it wasn't playing. Walking them in a park is good because they can still socialise and feel safe. If my dog was that scared after been attacked I wouldn't force him back into a dog park either.

borderlinemeath

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Again you should read my posts about when the muzzle goes on.

I don't have a pack of huskies I have a pack of a mix breeds actually. And he is the dominant pack leader, and he's the only one who hasn't been castrated and neutered.

He is not defenceless, you think that if I fight broke out between my dog and another both owners wouldn't break it up?
He has been attacked with the muzzle on and with it off and in either situation it has been broken up and sorted it out.

Not that its any of your business I do use a baskerville muzzle.

I gave you an statement as an example using google. People have different views on dominance but I for one believe it to be true, I've done my research pal thanks.

The more you're telling us, the more I hope I NEVER meet you when I'm out with my dogs. You may keep trying to convince yourself that your dog is "dominant":rolleyes:, but in reality he sounds like he's got a bit of fear aggression or perhaps a bit of testosterone aggression. You'll have a hard time trying to find owners who will let their dogs interact with yours given your lack of understanding of basic dog behaviour and that can only cause your dogs fear aggression to manifest itself.

andreac

But what does he do to make you think he's dominant?

Jawgap

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Aw I love Newfs, they are such a beautiful breed in every way. The woman who questioned you is an example of uneducated and overly opinionated person :P .

I think she was afraid they were going to slobber on her dog......

AliBaba2010

When I started this post all I was asking has any other large breed owners experienced what I have with small dog owners? I wasn't asking for anyone's opinions on how I choose to train my dog.
If you met my dog, and you weren't scared of big dogs of course, you would love him. He is a happy and well trained animal, who doesn't show the slightest bit of aggression. If you brought your big male dog over and your dog was acting in a way where he kept trying to show my dog whos in charge my dog will get annoyed and maybe snap and so the two dogs will fight, and only in this situation would you ever see him fight. This is why I use a muzzle because if in a situation like this if he wears the muzzle he will just walk away rather than snap.
Whether you believe in submissive and dominant dogs or not, I couldn't care less this is my dog and my responsibility. I don't want him to get in fights. I want him and the other dogs to be happy and to enjoy each others company. If you have a problem with this, thats your opinion I don't give a damn.
Thanks for your input but this thread has gone way of topic so if you kindly F off with your high horse opinions I would appreciate it.
I have a lot of knowledge in the area of training and behaviour of dogs and I am confident in my training techniques.
I will do more research on dominance AGAIN, but I would like you all to stop ganging up on me.
If you have a problem with the way I train and control my dog, keep your opinions to yourself. I find on this forum a lot of people are keyboard warriors who troll peoples threads, instead of helping or offering advice they jump down the throats of the OP that is disgraceful.
I see a lot of threads I disagree with but you don't see me going on and throwing abuse and opinions at the OP, no, I just ignore it! Simple!

muddypaws

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Again if you read my previous posts I mention I speak to owners of the same breeds all the time and we all agree on the behaviour of huskies. I got my information I posted there as an example, from a blog of a husky owner.
I have a lot of knowledge about all dog breeds, I won't get into it for privacy reasons.



All dogs are different my dog is a dominant male husky, yours is not. Huskies are known to be dominant breed, it doesn't mean every husky is.




Nope like I said he is dominant, he hasn't got fear aggression nor is he aggressive, just dominant.

OK, you won't entertain scientific evidence. You won't listen to experience (I have 8 huskies, 1 malamute and a husky cross here at the moment. I have worked with over 300 huskies/mals or crosses, and have never met an alpha, beta or omega dog) so its pretty pointless really anybody trying to engage with you at all. Good luck but there is no shame in changing your mind about things, and admitting that sometimes you got it wrong. I also used to believe the dominance theory, until I did proper research and got experience. I alpha rolled a dog, to my eternal shame now, and I even gave one a little nibble on the ear, because thats what you do with huskies apparently :rolleyes: Thankfully for the dogs I have moved on, I have an open mind and listen and learn.

AliBaba2010

Jawgap wrote: »

I think she was afraid they were going to slobber on her dog......

Definitely haha

Mr. Flibble

Could I interject that perhaps the OP means that when a dog tends to appear aggressive in a non-fearful way to the majority of other dogs that it encounters, tends to pin other dogs onto their back and otherwise antagonize them until they appear submissive, that they are then 'dominant'.

And when a dog tends to shy away from other dogs, roll onto their back, piss themselves, then they are then 'submissive'.

This use of the word dominant is not the same as when used in describing wolf/dog pack theory and jumping all over the OP for using this word seems irrelevant to the thread topic.

Zulu

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The more you're telling us, the more I hope I NEVER meet you when I'm out with my dogs.

That's needlessly harsh. The OP clearly is trying. And is clearly looking to educate themselves.

Frankly the OP is exactly the type of person I'd hope to bump into. Easy going. Willing to learn & do what they can. Kudos OP.

borderlinemeath

Zulu wrote: »

That's needlessly harsh. The OP clearly is trying. And is clearly looking to educate themselves.

Frankly the OP is exactly the type of person I'd hope to bump into. Easy going. Willing to learn & do what they can. Kudos OP.

Not really. One of the last posts was the OP telling people to F Off and keep their opinions to themselves, they've pointed out time and again that they would rather educate themselves from blog posts on outdated dominance theories. Somehow that doesn't strike me as "easy going" and "willing to learn". While the debate has gone from the original topic, it was the OP who brought up the entire dominance debate in the first place.

Zulu

Meh, can't we all just get along

Pretzill

Zulu wrote: »

Meh, can't we all just get along

+1 Zulu

Another thread here was shining a light on bitchyness in rescues - everyone here is passionate about their animals but can we all agree we give them a good home without the constant expert knowledge of what is optimum care. The OP was a genuine query about dog parks and small dog owners - I've only seen one or two posts about small dogs and that perspective may help the OP - I find nothing untoward to report posts but sometimes threads get completely derailed in here - And tbh I'm getting fed up with these back and forth 'I do it this way' ' This is the best way' diatribe.

I don't mean to offend anyone in particular but I really have learned a lot from this forum but lately it's becoming a minefield.