Sub 2:40 thread

dublin runner

Interesting to read that everyone has a completely different approach! I was told recently enough that doing speed sessions, let's say 400,600 reps, actually negatively impacts on marathon training when approaching the last few weeks of marathon training. Anyone have any insight/thoughts on this?

Stazza

dublin runner wrote: »

Interesting to read that everyone has a completely different approach! I was told recently enough that doing speed sessions, let's say 400,600 reps, actually negatively impacts on marathon training when approaching the last few weeks of marathon training. Anyone have any insight/thoughts on this?

This is correct: the idea of marathon training is to train the body to burn fuel effectively at mp. This pretty much means getting your body to tap into fat. If you bang out 400/600 reps in the final stages you are teaching your body to burn glycogen and therefore, messing up months of good work. This tends to manifest itself in runners getting to about 18-22 miles and feeling dead on their legs. Not quite the wall, but that horrible feeling that all is not well.

Some people will do a 5k/10k race 2-3 weeks out from the marathon and this impacts in the same way. The saving grace here is if you have a pants run - at least slower than what you expect. If you do have a pants run or below par, this can be a good sign that you are in fact in good marathon shape.

There are, however, people who will say that they do shorter stuff before a marathon and that it doesn't impact badly on their races - they should try not doing shorter stuff before a race and see what happens. Of course, these are merely my humble thoughts on the matter...

dublin runner

Stazza wrote: »

This is correct: the idea of marathon training is to train the body to burn fuel effectively at mp. This pretty much means getting your body to tap into fat. If you bang out 400/600 reps in the final stages you are teaching your body to burn glycogen and therefore, messing up months of good work. This tends to manifest itself in runners getting to about 18-22 miles and feeling dead on their legs. Not quite the wall, but that horrible feeling that all is not well.

Some people will do a 5k/10k race 2-3 weeks out from the marathon and this impacts in the same way. The saving grace here is if you have a pants run - at least slower than what you expect. If you do have a pants run or below par, this can be a good sign that you are in fact in good marathon shape.

There are, however, people who will say that they do shorter stuff before a marathon and that it doesn't impact badly on their races - they should try not doing shorter stuff before a race and see what happens. Of course, these are merely my humble thoughts on the matter...

Sound words. Pretty much agree with everything. I did a 10k 11 days before the marathon in April. Don't think ill be doing that again!

dublin runner

Stazza wrote: »

This is correct: the idea of marathon training is to train the body to burn fuel effectively at mp. This pretty much means getting your body to tap into fat. If you bang out 400/600 reps in the final stages you are teaching your body to burn glycogen and therefore, messing up months of good work. This tends to manifest itself in runners getting to about 18-22 miles and feeling dead on their legs. Not quite the wall, but that horrible feeling that all is not well.

Some people will do a 5k/10k race 2-3 weeks out from the marathon and this impacts in the same way. The saving grace here is if you have a pants run - at least slower than what you expect. If you do have a pants run or below par, this can be a good sign that you are in fact in good marathon shape.

There are, however, people who will say that they do shorter stuff before a marathon and that it doesn't impact badly on their races - they should try not doing shorter stuff before a race and see what happens. Of course, these are merely my humble thoughts on the matter...

Sound words. Pretty much agree with everything. I did a 10k 11 days before the marathon in April. Don't think ill be doing that again!

happygoose

If I was reading all this during taper madness I'd be having a mini meltdown. Skin. Cat.

No idea what I'll be going for KC - right now I'd take 2:39:55. I had a torrid time in the Clonmel Half. It was a kick up the hole. My goal time will depend on Charleville. I've a couple of friends around the same pace doing Charleville/Frankfurt, I'd like to be running both with them. I'll be better informed about where I'm at then. There's normally a goal time table flying about pre marathon, I'll fill it in. I'm guessing you're going 2:34'ish?

Krusty_Clown

tunguska wrote: »

I used to do this but no good ever came from doing a long run the day after a race. I know the theory says theres benefits to running on tired legs but from my own experience I've found that your best off taking a rest day the day after a race(10 miles and above) or just do an easy 5 miles or so. Leave the long run for a few days or even just write it off.

I think you're probably a type I runner (similar to he formerly known as TRR), in that you commit to your build-up races 100% and leave nothing behind, which makes a long run on the consecutive day a far more risky proposition. You'll risk blowing it all, in order to beat a specific individual or stay with a group, early in the race (I'm not sure if your recent set of injuries has forced you to adapt your strategy?).

Then there are those of us who are type 2 runners, (theboyblunder and I), who don't run to our limits, are more risk-averse (in the running context), who will pretty much always run within 30-60 seconds of our predicted race time, and will often have something left in the tank at the end of the race (negative splits are common). Long runs the next day are feasible, as the legs haven't gone through the wringer.

Apologies for pigeon-holing/type-casting. Just throwing out a theory. These types may be attributable to TBB's fast twitch/slow twitch hypothesis.

Krusty_Clown

happygoose wrote: »

No idea what I'll be going for KC - right now I'd take 2:39:55. I had a torrid time in the Clonmel Half. It was a kick up the hole. My goal time will depend on Charleville. I've a couple of friends around the same pace doing Charleville/Frankfurt, I'd like to be running both with them. I'll be better informed about where I'm at then. There's normally a goal time table flying about pre marathon, I'll fill it in. I'm guessing you're going 2:34'ish?

I'm still aiming for 2:32, but like you, I'll be guided by my results in my tune-up races, and by how my marathon pace runs go. At this point I believe I'm not in shape for that target, but don't have overwhelming evidence to that effect. I don't like to correlate my half marathon times to full-marathon times using vdot/MacMillan etc., as my focus isn't the half marathon, but if the 15 mile marathon pace runs don't go well, I will definitely adjust my time downwards.

dukeraoul

Good stuff guys . Yeah my training is going pretty good. Had a poor Frank Duffy and have made the decision to use my Frankfurt entry this year so no DCM which I feel gives me a better chance at a quick time .

Racing Athlone and will MP Moone so will decide on pace from there but if I can push down the HM from my 77 in May I think I'm in with a chance. Happy Goose sounds like we could be seeing a good bit of each other in Frankfurt all going well.

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I think you're probably a type I runner (similar to he formerly known as TRR), in that you commit to your build-up races 100% and leave nothing behind, which makes a long run on the consecutive day a far more risky proposition. You'll risk blowing it all, in order to beat a specific individual or stay with a group, early in the race (I'm not sure if your recent set of injuries has forced you to adapt your strategy?).

Then there are those of us who are type 2 runners, (theboyblunder and I), who don't run to our limits, are more risk-averse (in the running context), who will pretty much always run within 30-60 seconds of our predicted race time, and will often have something left in the tank at the end of the race (negative splits are common). Long runs the next day are feasible, as the legs haven't gone through the wringer.

Apologies for pigeon-holing/type-casting. Just throwing out a theory. These types may be attributable to TBB's fast twitch/slow twitch hypothesis.

Im not actually injured! Im good, just been taking it handy. I see what you mean. It is down to the individual I suppose. If you run a 10mile race for example on a saturday and then on sunday you feel fine and you knock out a 20miler without getting injured or frying your circuits then its all good. But if you do said race and you feel a bit cooked the next day I'd say leave the long run and let your body recover. JD recommends a day of easy running for every 3k of hard racing and I've found that system works really well

dublin runner

dukeraoul wrote: »

Good stuff guys . Yeah my training is going pretty good. Had a poor Frank Duffy and have made the decision to use my Frankfurt entry this year so no DCM which I feel gives me a better chance at a quick time .

Racing Athlone and will MP Moone so will decide on pace from there but if I can push down the HM from my 77 in May I think I'm in with a chance. Happy Goose sounds like we could be seeing a good bit of each other in Frankfurt all going well.

Another good man down. I may be the last man standing in Dublin!

What was your main reason for choosing Frankfurt? Flatter course, deeper field? Our 20 mile run (mainly running the 1st half of Dublin) reminded me that Dublin is not the easiest course. The weather on the day really can play havoc, particularly the winds.

What's the goal for Athlone? My plan (tbc!) is to start out at 5.50 a mile and see where that gets me. Thinking of doing a mini HM session next week. Possibly 3x2miles @HMP.

theboyblunder

dublin runner wrote: »

Another good man down. I may be the last man standing in Dublin!

What was your main reason for choosing Frankfurt? Flatter course, deeper field? Our 20 mile run (mainly running the 1st half of Dublin) reminded me that Dublin is not the easiest

He was in a smack down challenge with me for the DCM to stop his big sisters pearse talk. I got far too close to him over 10 miles at the weekend and he knows now ill beat him on a slightly hilly course. So he slunk off to frankfurt without even conceeding . Shameful. Still, no more big talk I suppose.

dukeraoul

theboyblunder wrote: »

He was in a smack down challenge with me for the DCM to stop his big sisters pearse talk. I got far too close to him over 10 miles at the weekend and he knows now ill beat him on a slightly hilly course. So he slunk off to frankfurt without even conceeding . Shameful. Still, no more big talk I suppose.

Hahahaha no sisters left for me to beat. I'll spot you 3 mins how's that sound?

dukeraoul

dublin runner wrote: »

Another good man down. I may be the last man standing in Dublin!

What was your main reason for choosing Frankfurt? Flatter course, deeper field? Our 20 mile run (mainly running the 1st half of Dublin) reminded me that Dublin is not the easiest course. The weather on the day really can play havoc, particularly the winds.

What's the goal for Athlone? My plan (tbc!) is to start out at 5.50 a mile and see where that gets me. Thinking of doing a mini HM session next week. Possibly 3x2miles @HMP.

All of the above DR. I just don't like the course at all and had entered Frankfurt last yr so have decided to go with it. I think travelling for a marathon is an advantage for me as well as travel tends to relax me .

I have that session down as well for next week maybe meet up for it ? Goal for me in Athlone is to run a hell of a lot better than FD!

theboyblunder

dukeraoul wrote: »

Hahahaha no sisters left for me to beat. I'll spot you 3 mins how's that sound?

Or you could just race me and lose like a man! Ill shut up now and not derail further.

dukeraoul

theboyblunder wrote: »

Or you could just race me and lose like a man! Ill shut up now and not derail further.

In 30 yrs time would I rather tell the grand kids I ran a 2:39 or that I beat the Captain of some Ra affiliated hobby jogging outfit named after the biggest right wing wanker in the history of Irish Republicanism- who until recently had a female as the club record holder at every distance up to the marathon ..., hmmmm

Make that a 4 min handicap TBb and I'll give yer boy Liam 3 mins..

dublin runner

dukeraoul wrote: »

All of the above DR. I just don't like the course at all and had entered Frankfurt last yr so have decided to go with it. I think travelling for a marathon is an advantage for me as well as travel tends to relax me .

I have that session down as well for next week maybe meet up for it ? Goal for me in Athlone is to run a hell of a lot better than FD!

Athlone is a quality race. Might try to hang on to you as long as possible! I'd be the exact opposite regarding travel. If sucks the life out of me.

Cool. Fire me a text. Probably had to be early in the week.