Steps in self building

W123-80's

RITwing wrote: »

No. I am saying the new regs will not stop another Priory Hall. The unscruplous developer will find a weak architect and simply "buy" the certificates.

What the regulations are actually intended to acheive is to make it easier for a future minister faced with a future similar scandal to say "sue the architect - the state will not assist"

Ahh.. I see.
Shame they paid absolutely no consideration whatsoever to anything else that may be effected by these regs.

RITwing

I cut and pasted this from another place

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The following opinion piece was submitted on July 28th 2014 by Caomhán Murphy, architect in private practice and Member of the Council of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland.

‘Shrapnel and Spin’

The State and its servants seem to view the professional classes in Ireland for the most part with suspicion and mistrust. I’m not sure why this happens in Ireland, in particular, given the contribution professionals can make to genuinely raising the bar, holding the line, creating employment, providing creative and practical solutions and mostly advancing the common good – all aspirations that appear regularly on programs for government only to disappear later into the vacuum of what we have come to know in this country as government. Since when did we not want the best for our people?

It’s part of a professional’s training to act ethically, transparently and to give disinterested advice. We do this each day as we go about our work carefully. We are not amateurs and that is the point of being a professional. We are well positioned to know how our industries operate and how they can be honed and improved not only for ourselves but for the common good. We also know our shortcomings. These are skills that most professionals tend to have in abundance. They must have them to survive and to create their own employment in many cases.

That mistrust of professionals sits comfortably with a political cronyism and self-regard that is sadly all too familiar. It is an anti-intellectual standpoint that corrodes the multiple aspirations of our countries bright citizens each day as they engage their talents in a morass of poor laws, poor regulation and poor service. As a citizen, a voter and a consumer I deserve better laws – laws that will genuinely protect me from the rogue elements of our society, who want to cut corners and don’t care a damn about the common good and ones that don’t seek to burden me as an individual and my hard won professional enterprise with an intolerable liability and a fabricated workload designed to achieve only political ends. A law that seeks to solve a problem by setting up an elaborate bureaucracy and paper trail to pin blame on the last man or woman standing is fundamentally flawed in a just society – no matter how it is dressed up and spun.

One of the most immature aspects of living in Ireland is our inability to know what it means to be a good citizen. It’s a disorder that is an unfortunate feature of much of Irish life. Despite its importance we don’t learn much about our obligations to each other and to society at large during our formative years and without any structured form of civilian service we rarely learn it as young developing adults either. Very often we pick it up through living outside Ireland in more attuned democracies. Perhaps we mask our self-centered ways with our global renown for generosity and goodwill. They are probably two sides of the same coin. The energy from all that giving resulting in the flip side compulsion to look after ones own constituency at the expense of everyone else. I’m not a neurologist but it might explain it.

The new Building Control (Amendment) Regulations (S.I.09) that became law on 1st March this year mark, in my personal view, a new low in passing the buck by our legislators. The divisions it has caused in our profession alone are a measure of both the unbelievable crudeness of the legislation and the strength of feeling among concerned architects and citizens. That response should be viewed in a wider national context and desire for change and accountability. The ludicrous and crass boom years were supposed to give way to a more informed, balanced and equitable way of doing things. Some of us perhaps even anticipated much needed change in our political system and how we, as a country and a people carry on our business. That sentiment is surely shared by many public servants also but it requires political leadership not political trickery on such a grand scale. Many citizens thought post boom government might be a catalyst for change. The fact that a new law could be brought in to deal supposedly with the ‘Priory Hall’ issue and in its essence not actually protect the consumer one iota is worthy of something from our ludicrous years.

While there are many critical and significant peripheral issues and difficulties surrounding the debate and implementation of S.I.09, including:

the complete absence of any state information campaign or advice for consumers let alone professionals,
the fate of architectural technologists,
the mishandling of genuine self builders,
the questionable motivations of some in the construction industry,
the serious failure to adequately prepare or road test even basic scenarios,
the failure to include Latent Defects Insurance,
the ignoring of warning signals from professional bodies that the industry was not ready
the ignoring of consumer bodies advice,
the significant additional costs now associated with construction of buildings that previously had no failures at all,
the lack of real engagement with a wider group of stakeholders and so on and so on…the problems are only now coming to the fore and will, as the lawyers have advised, play out in the courts in the years to come.
Don’t let that cloud the fundamental truth in all this. The single most disappointing aspect of the entire cabal is that the State has managed in one fell swoop to singularly look after itself by washing its hands completely of any responsibility for ensuring better buildings through a simple system of independent inspections of building sites that could easily have been cost neutral for the State. Having someone to blame was politically more important than ensuring actual better construction standards.

That is a profound mistake and a legislative error that is not likely to be corrected until the next unfortunate Priory Hall.

Those who chose to substantially ignore the five hundred submissions received in response to the draft legislation have lost the opportunity for an improved building control system, which would have protected consumers.

This law should never have been allowed to proceed. Everything we are now dealing with as a result is shrapnel and spin. Business as usual @ireland.gov

W123-80's

^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow.. Nail on the head.!
Great piece of writing.
Shame nobody will listen to his well thought out position.

calum22

My friend is asking, is there anywhere online where he could estimate the cost of a selfbuild? Like a walk through from start to finish. Could anybody help?

RITwing

Start here

mickman

is 100 euro per square foot for a timber frame two storey house a good figure to budget with ?

BryanF

mickman wrote: »

is 100 euro per square foot for a timber frame two storey house a good figure to budget with ?

Not really more like 1200 to 1700 depending on finish & what is included.

Randal76

mickman wrote: »

is 100 euro per square foot for a timber frame two storey house a good figure to budget with ?

Around 110euro per Sq/ft would be a fair avg guide for min standard under current building control regs from what I have seen

mickman

Randal76 wrote: »

Around 110euro per Sq/ft would be a fair avg guide for min standard under current building control regs from what I have seen

Thanks and would that include house furnishings ?

mickman

BryanF wrote: »

Not really more like 1200 to 1700 depending on finish & what is included.

??

hexosan

mickman wrote: »

Thanks and would that include house furnishings ?

No

hexosan

BryanF wrote: »

Not really more like 1200 to 1700 depending on finish & what is included.

I thing he means €1200-€1700 per M

Timmaay

Would that 110e/Sq ft be just the for the builder or everything, likes of planning, surveyer etc? If it's just for the builder, could anyone put an approx figure on what extra you'd need to pay, say to go from a bare site to a house with a builders finish?

mickman

Not sure where these inflated prices come from

How can someone I know buy a 2250 sq frt brand new house for 275k with good finish if it's 120+ per square foot. Site is at least 60k , does the builder not make a profit ?

Also if the site is pretty level and it's a serviced site- will this bring cost down?

How can a timber frame cost as much as block if build time is way shorter ,surely thd labour makes up a huge chunk of thd cost

DOCARCH

mickman wrote: »

How can someone I know buy a 2250 sq frt brand new house for 275k with good finish if it's 120+ per square foot. Site is at least 60k, does the builder not make a profit ?

Quite possibly not?

Also bear in mind that if the person you know has bought a completed house, then that house has probably been built under old(er) regulations (= cheaper to build).

mickman wrote: »

How can a timber frame cost as much as block if build time is way shorter ,surely thd labour makes up a huge chunk of thd cost

Timber frame is generally more expensive than block, but cost vs. time generally balances out the overall cost of each method of construction.

sydthebeat

mickman wrote: »

Not sure where these inflated prices come from

How can someone I know buy a 2250 sq frt brand new house for 275k with good finish if it's 120+ per square foot. Site is at least 60k , does the builder not make a profit ?

Also if the site is pretty level and it's a serviced site- will this bring cost down?

How can a timber frame cost as much as block if build time is way shorter ,surely thd labour makes up a huge chunk of thd cost

You can buy a rural house these days for less than it costs to build it. ... where have you been for the last five years?

mickman

sydthebeat wrote: »

You can buy a rural house these days for less than it costs to build it. ... where have you been for the last five years?

Why bring a smart comment into this . I'm only asking a question

sydthebeat

mickman wrote: »

Why bring a smart comment into this . I'm only asking a question

You are the who refered to the quotes given here as "inflated", so obviously your coming at this from a bias.

RITwing

mickman wrote: »

Not sure where these inflated prices come from

http://www.scsi.ie/about_us/rebuildcalculator

mickman

sydthebeat wrote: »

You are the who refered to the quotes given here as "inflated", so obviously your coming at this from a bias.

Calling them inflated isn't being smart. It's what my opinion is. Other posters on here say their houses have been built for less than 100 a sq foot so just don't understand it

Also don't understand how a building company can sell the new house in my earlier post for that price

RITwing

mickman wrote: »

Other posters on here say their houses have been built for less than 100 a sq foot so just don't understand it

That is the nature of the internet. One must always consider the source.

RITwing

mickman wrote: »

Also don't understand how a building company can sell the new house in my earlier post for that price

From time to time businesses make losses. No mystery.

sydthebeat

mickman wrote: »

Calling them inflated isn't being smart. It's what my opinion is. Other posters on here say their houses have been built for less than 100 a sq foot so just don't understand it

Also don't understand how a building company can sell the new house in my earlier post for that price

distressed borrowers
repossessed house
undeclared issues with house
actual market value



throw a dart and pick one.....

893bet

mickman wrote: »

Calling them inflated isn't being smart. It's what my opinion is. Other posters on here say their houses have been built for less than 100 a sq foot so just don't understand it

Also don't understand how a building company can sell the new house in my earlier post for that price

Each poster may have a different definition of "built".

Poster A built is fully finished inside and out with lawns gates etc.
Poster B it's fully finished inside with loads of work to do outside
Poster C it's a builders finish inside

Comparing posters cost per square foot is comparing apples and oranges often. Different size houses, locations, planning conditions, which year regulations have to met etc will all impact the cost.

100 per sq ft is very possibile (finished inside and out but not furnished) I think with a simple design house, simple roof, good ground conditions etc with careful planning and a relatively basic spec. With the new regs now to contend with though........

mickman

893bet wrote: »

Each poster may have a different definition of "built".

Poster A built is fully finished inside and out with lawns gates etc.
Poster B it's fully finished inside with loads of work to do outside
Poster C it's a builders finish inside

Comparing posters cost per square foot is comparing apples and oranges often. Different size houses, locations, planning conditions, which year regulations have to met etc will all impact the cost.

100 per sq ft is very possibile (finished inside and out but not furnished) I think with a simple design house, simple roof, good ground conditions etc with careful planning and a relatively basic spec. With the new regs now to contend with though........

Thanks for the good answer.

How do the new regs affect things ?

893bet

mickman wrote: »

Thanks for the good answer.

How do the new regs things ?

I don't know a lot about it as it doesn't affect mybuild but the general opinion is it increases cost due to increased certification cost.

Also it means that doing a self build is difficult as the risk to a certifier is huge so a main contractor is preferable.

That said my own engineer had mentioned in passing that he is willing to certify new self builds under the new regs. I have my reservations about this as everyone else on here thinks it won't work and they can't all be wrong. He is pushing 60 so I suspect he doesn't understand the full implication of the regs.


Eitherway Mick be wary of the people claiming 60euro per sq foot. Chances are they are either doing one or a combination of the below

A) not meeting regulations and saving money that way
doing a lot of work themselves and/or free cheap labour from family (which I don't think is possible under new regs)
C) not including a lot of costs that have to be included.

Stuff is dear. Materials are crazy.

DOCARCH

893bet wrote: »

That said my own engineer had mentioned in passing that he is willing to certify new self builds under the new regs. I have my reservations about this as everyone else on here thinks it won't work and they can't all be wrong. He is pushing 60 so I suspect he doesn't understand the full implication of the regs.

That is a very important point! There are people out there, acting as Assigned Certifier, who I believe do not fully understand the role they are undertaking!

I spoke with a chartered engineer recently, who is acting as Assigned Certifier on a build. He told me he was charging E 1800 + VAT to act as AC. I asked him how the hell was he doing it so cheap?

This is how. There is a registered architect appointed too (appointed for the construction stage). The architect refused to take on the role of AC! The engineer was wiling to act as AC. He will be just doing visits to site to inspect the structural elements of the works...and...then...for all other parts of the works he will simply get photos,minutes and ancillary certs from the architect and from that, he told me, he is happy to sign off the build (as AC). In essence he almost sees his role as AC as admin!

All I could say was....really!!!

I just told him to consider, in the future, if there is an issue, it will be his name on the Certificate of Completion.

RITwing

893bet wrote: »

He is pushing 60 so I suspect he doesn't understand the full implication of the regs.

Poverty is a most excellent defence.Unless this guy is a wealthy retiree any "warranty" in his Certification will be hollow. I have actually seen a case many years ago where a profesional really messed up. The clients did not sue beacuse the legal advice was that there would be nothing to gain - he had no money.

mickman

Its all well and good saying buying a house is cheaper than building it but the houses i see for sale are just crap to be honest.

i want a bigger house for my family - its as simple as that but if i built a 2500 sq foot , i cant afford to pay 300k to build it

hexosan

Well then there's the reason they are cheaper