Triathlon Ireland proposals going forward

Ceepo

Some interesting proposals up for discussion,

http://www.triathlonireland.com/assets/files/Events%20Proposals%202014.pdf

Some of thes might help with some of the concerns raised on here over the lst few week,
Some good ideas, weather they are all workable is another thing ?

ray o

Ceepo wrote: »

Some interesting proposals up for discussion,

http://www.triathlonireland.com/assets/files/Events%20Proposals%202014.pdf

Some of thes might help with some of the concerns raised on here over the lst few week,
Some good ideas, weather they are all workable is another thing ?

Looks like it would take a fair bit of organising to pull it all together but your right It does address some of the better suggestions that were raised on how to make racing here more interesting. A step in the right direction I think.

Tom__JNR

I hope it goes ahead! I guess I need to join a club now.

Shedite27

I'm guessing everyone in a club and TI member will be for these. Anyone who's not will be against them.

So if the goals (as they state) are the increase TI and club membership then they're perfect.

I'm a casual triathlete so doesn't suit me, it means I have to wait 4/5 days to enter races (how many really sell out that quick?) and I'll likely be in the last wave of races (despite being an above-average swimmer)

Huff n Puff

Ceepo wrote: »

Some interesting proposals up for discussion,

http://www.triathlonireland.com/assets/files/Events%20Proposals%202014.pdf

Some of thes might help with some of the concerns raised on here over the lst few week,
Some good ideas, weather they are all workable is another thing ?

Some very interesting ideas alright. After a quick scan through it all I would have to say thats it's a positive move. I would be in favour of most of it. Looks good on paper so hopefully that transfers to improved racing.

There is a lot of work involved and it will require clubs and individuals to buy into the idea and support it. That is where it might fall down. The average triathlete just doesn't give a toss about the development of the sport, especially at the top levels in this country.

Well done to everyone involved in creating that proposal. The fear, as always, is that this is just lip service.

tunney

Going to be an interesting software system to facilitate the online entries.

BTH

So, Tunney ain't impressed. I for one am shocked. (edit: stop deleting your posts Dave)

This document and the proposal to limit wave numbers to 100/150 is a positive step. Obviously it remains to be seen how this plays out in practice but the very fact that they know there is a problem and are trying to address it has not to be good news.

On the race entries thing, yes, this will probably mean all races need to use TIs entry system, and we all know how well that went in 2012 for HOTW, but myself Ceepo and Gibbo were only talking about this recently. I know of a few athletes who would have been competing for the podium who didn't get an entry to the sprint champs because it was sold out before anyone knew it opened for entry. This cheapens the whole race and the whole idea of it being a championship race. Surely the national champs race needs the best athletes in the country if the race is to mean anything. The document linked above looks like it will address that issue.

sconhome

About bloody time.

Huff n Puff

tunney wrote: »

Going to be an interesting software system to facilitate the online entries.

That could well be a problem alright. There is no doubt that there will be plenty of clubs and race organisers who see this as a huge nuisance and plenty of individuals that will see these changes as elitism. Change is difficult and to be honest I don't see things changing.

The one good thing TI have going for them is the importance of being a National Series race. Being an NS/NC race is often the difference between having a crowd and having no crowd. Races will want to be part of the new set-up, so TI hold all the cards really. If your race wants to be selected for this new series then put your race forward and jump through all the hoops TI put in front of you. If not then nobody is forcing you to. Do your own thing.

tunney

BTH wrote: »

So, Tunney ain't impressed. I for one am shocked. (edit: stop deleting your posts Dave)

I was trying to be positive and less argumentative.

BTH wrote: »

This document and the proposal to limit wave numbers to 100/150 is a positive step. Obviously it remains to be seen how this plays out in practice but the very fact that they know there is a problem and are trying to address it has not to be good news.

10 waves, 15 minutes apart. Thats the roads in use for around five hours. Could be difficult to swing

BTH wrote: »

On the race entries thing, yes, this will probably mean all races need to use TIs entry system, and we all know how well that went in 2012 for HOTW, but myself Ceepo and Gibbo were only talking about this recently. I know of a few athletes who would have been competing for the podium who didn't get an entry to the sprint champs because it was sold out before anyone knew it opened for entry. This cheapens the whole race and the whole idea of it being a championship race. Surely the national champs race needs the best athletes in the country if the race is to mean anything. The document linked above looks like it will address that issue.

Its a complex set of requirements and a bespoke entry system.

tunney

So the National Series would no longer be pointless?

The point of the National Series would be to place highly so you can enter the National Series more easily?

speedyj

Definitely good to see some work in progress. I think the Division 2 concept and preferential treatment given to those who fork out to race abroad is bollox, sorry I mean misguided :-)

tunney

Some questions:

"Athletes who have finished in top 8 in a National Series event in previous
2 years"

So this is making the DIV1 license effectively a 25-35 thing. Those other than prime won't place and therefore won't get licences.

"Wave start with best athletes in all National level events"

So all div one athletes will be the better athletes and will start in the same wave. So 150 athletes of roughly the same level will hit the bike at the same time in every NS race. Anyone see issues..........


"Athletes who have finished in top 16 overall in National Series in previous 2 years"

Struggling to make sense of this one. Is the NS an age group competition or not? If AG group top 16 then thats a huge number entitled to DIV1. IF not AG group top 16 then whats the point in the NS?

Division 2 :
"Athletes who have competed at age group level in ETU or ITU
championship events in previous 3 years "

Seems that div2 is there solely to feed the cash cow.


Just a few thoughts while waiting for Maven.

DaveR1

tunney wrote: »

Some questions:

"Wave start with best athletes in all National level events"

So all div one athletes will be the better athletes and will start in the same wave. So 150 athletes of roughly the same level will hit the bike at the same time in every NS race. Anyone see issues..........

Its either a RACE or not. If its a RACE then put the best people RACING eachother. This idea of age group waves destroys the racing aspect at the top level. Its a RACE so keep it like that.

tunney

DaveR1 wrote: »

Its either a RACE or not. If its a RACE then put the best people RACING eachother. This idea of age group waves destroys the racing aspect at the top level. Its a RACE so keep it like that.

Devils advocate : Its an Age Group event in an Age Group competition.

What I meant specifically was 150 athletes swimming roughly the same times, hitting the bike at roughly the same time, police the drafting on that.........

(EDIT: Do I have a solution? No no I do not. Why? One of the reasons being I do not think that the problem that is being address has been defined. )

speedyj

The mixing in of duathlon/aquathlon is confusing - I'd deal with them later and stay focused on tri for now. They're also contributing to the mass of divisions (7?). Simpler is better where possible - if we're going beyond 3 that's a warning flag for me To keep the number of sub-categories down in any one category we need Junior/Adult as the first divider.

What I'd like to get from the document is an easy to grasp of the proposed tiers in triathlon racing in Ireland. Is is elite/age-group elite/everyone else? It also might help to list and document them in reverse, i.e. in the order of most participants to least.

Included where applicable would be a statement of estimated numbers, e.g. we anticipate 50 age-group elite. This would help when evaluating qualifying criteria and how races for that tier would be organised.

An outline of what competitions are open to each tier would be nice.

There will probably be some entry criteria to any competition based on full membership/one day licence, for example full members would get first call on certain events such as a National Champs.

speedyj

DaveR1 wrote: »

Its either a RACE or not. If its a RACE then put the best people RACING eachother. This idea of age group waves destroys the racing aspect at the top level. Its a RACE so keep it like that.

We've a number of competing concerns, such as providing a real "race" both at the front and within the age groups, limiting the numbers of people on the road at a given time. It's kind of unsolvable without changing the problem definition somehow - I think the direction being taken is to extract some form of limited number age-group elite to form the most competitive race.

There will be issues with any system, for example what if someone from back the waves beats someone in the first wave? Answer might be that they're in a separate race and need to move up next year. We're going to have teething problems whatever happens..

Mr. Flibble

tunney wrote: »

Going to be an interesting software system to facilitate the online entries.

Mostly off topic, but as we're discussing the software system...

I've entered a couple of events this year and I'm amazed that any average joe actually manages to get entered into these races. The whole system is utterly confusing for the uninitiated. You are typically bounced around between a number of websites during registration process and often (always?) have to manually make a separate purchase of a 1 day license on the TI website, if you are not a TI member.

A little thought into the UX the entry purchase would go a long way.

Solution:

• Make it easy for event organizers to incorporate one day TI license purchase in the event entry on their website.
• Don't require people to make TI license purchases on the TI website.

triathlonireland.com wrote:

Strategic Aims: Increase participation in [...] membership in TI

The fact that the TI membership runs from Jan - Jan means that most newbies who aren't sure how many events they are going to enter and very unlikely to purchase a years membership anytime past April.

Solution:
Reduce registration cost each month accordingly
or
Have the membership run for 12 months after payment.

triathlonireland.com wrote:

Strategic Aims: Increase participation in Triathlon

Making a website design guide available to the people running the event would go a long way. The amount of event websites that don't clearly show the

• Time of the event
• Cost of entry
• Location of the event
• Event distances
• Registration closing time
• Sign on times and locations

on the website is crazy. And the number of sites that say "X is the same as last year's event" is quite frustrating.
It's not easy to put yourself in the shoes of a visitor when creating a website, but I think it's worth making event organisers aware that there may be issues with theirs.

sconhome

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Mostly off topic, but as we're discussing the software system...

I've entered a couple of events this year and I'm amazed that any average joe actually manages to get entered into these races. The whole system is utterly confusing for the uninitiated. You are typically bounced around between a number of websites during registration process and often (always?) have to manually make a separate purchase of a 1 day license on the TI website, if you are not a TI member.

A little thought into the UX the entry purchase would go a long way.

Solution:

• Make it easy for event organizers to incorporate one day TI license purchase in the event entry on their website.
• Don't require people to make TI license purchases on the TI website.

The fact that the TI membership runs from Jan - Jan means that most newbies who aren't sure how many events they are going to enter and very unlikely to purchase a years membership anytime past April.

Solution:
Reduce registration cost each month accordingly
or
Have the membership run for 12 months after payment.



Making a website design guide available to the people running the event would go a long way. The amount of event websites that don't clearly show the

• Time of the event
• Cost of entry
• Location of the event
• Event distances
• Registration closing time
• Sign on times and locations

on the website is crazy. And the number of sites that say "X is the same as last year's event" is quite frustrating.
It's not easy to put yourself in the shoes of a visitor when creating a website, but I think it's worth making event organisers aware that there may be issues with theirs.

Lots of issues raised in your points.

Far easier for all TI sanctioned events to have their entry via TI site, they are the governing body and license issuer. Event promotion websites would each have to have SSL cert, payment gateways etc and to be honest if entering 7 / 8 races per year I would prefer to trust one permanent website rather than having to trust somethign thrown up for an annual event.

Almost every other sport goes Jan to Dec so should TI. Imagine having to police what is valid or not valid at race registration? Current system of '2014' and a colour is easy to identify as valid or in-valid.

It is up to the individual to decide the economics of ODL or not.

I like what the proposal addresses (think there's been blogs about it before) is a tiered approach for those serious about their sport and others who are doing it to participate.

Good point by Tunney earlier about elite wave leading to ITU style bunching as 150 come out together. That brings the top tier very close to ITU draft legal option racing on the domestic scene and an amateur/pro or semi-pro approach to racing. Could get messy.

Age group waves is the right way to go for all other levels. If I start in a wave with all my fellow oldies I know who I am racing (for points & places). Sure roads will be congested by the time we get out there (unless age before beauty) but the stronger oldAGers won't be worried about drafting as they hoover up weaker younglings

I support the proposals.

P2C

Division 1-

I presume TI are trying to create a elite license that can compete in draft legal races . The GAP is narrowing between the top level age groupers (Swim) and the TI development athletes such as Aaron, Con, Chris, Jackson and a host of upincoming juniors/ 20-24 that are beginning to make a break through.

I presume they are trying to get these lads/ladies racing the top age groupers in ITU draft legal racing for exposure and experience. Similar to British super series. The only exposure for these kids is maybe once a year international race if they are selected. The cost of bringing squads is prohibitive. These kids really need to be exposed to draft legal racing for the development of our future heroes.

If you put the top juniors, development athletes, seniors and maybe the top 50 age groupers into a category called division 1 and have some draft legal racing it would be interesting. I reckon the gap would close further between age groupers and the fish in swimming. It would sort out the top end drafting continuous debate. I have no doubt their are some age groupers who will be well able to challenge. Maybe not our top end elites but defo the juniors and developing athletes.

mossym

not had time to go through it in detail, but

One very surprising fact around the National Series 2013 was that whilst 4084
competed in these events only 325 actually did 5 events – whether these actually
met the criteria of 2 sprint, 2 standard and another has not been analysed.

so the awards(probably not an issue)and final rankings for last year were given out and they've no idea if those people should even have been considered?

entry to divisions is then going to be based on a ranking that no-one has checked is actually valid?not a great start

not a big deal probably, but seems very odd.

secondly, would seem division 2 is nothing more than an effort to drive more people to pay to represent TI at the eu and world champs. never looked into it, but doesn't appear this is a hugely attractive option for most so this just an effort to make more people apply?not sure what else it does


division 3. might be quite a few people signing up for clubs who normally wouldn't. not sure why they differentiate between club and non club members.

Mr. Flibble

AKW wrote: »

Far easier for all TI sanctioned events to have their entry via TI site, they are the governing body and license issuer. Event promotion websites would each have to have SSL cert, payment gateways etc and to be honest if entering 7 / 8 races per year I would prefer to trust one permanent website rather than having to trust somethign thrown up for an annual event.

To have the complete event registration via the TI website would be a good option too, but that's not what's happening in many cases.

For example, registering for shadowman recently. The main website is at http://shadow-man.com/
I click on the register link there and am bounced to
http://www.entrysystem.se/Event/shadowman2014/Register
where payment for the event is made.

I'm given a link there to the TI website that you need to follow to purchase a 1-day TI license (along with re-entering your information).

I've been on three websites now to enter one event.

Perhaps it could be made mandatory for any event making use of TI membership to have the full registration process via the TI website to solve this issue.

AKW wrote: »

Almost every other sport goes Jan to Dec so should TI. Imagine having to police what is valid or not valid at race registration? Current system of '2014' and a colour is easy to identify as valid or in-valid.

I haven't see the current licence documentation (due to aforementioned issue) but a large
VALID UNTIL END OCT '15 printed on the cover might do the trick. If they are currently only looking at the document colour then one may as well share one license between a couple of friends.

AKW wrote: »

It is up to the individual to decide the economics of ODL or not.

It is. I'm just saying it seems that with the current system the individual may opt against full membership when deciding on the economics, and I gathered from the document that the strategic aims were to increase membership. I don't know how membership is measured though. If it's by way of €takings (which is totally fine!) then promoting ODLs and making yearly membership appear unattractive may be the best approach to achieve this.

My stance in general is that anything that adds decisions to the customer's experience is a bad thing. Taking into account the month of membership purchase is just one more decision on top of the rest.

tunney

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Perhaps it could be made mandatory for any event making use of TI membership to have the full registration process via the TI website to solve this issue.

Issue with this is the credit card processing company that TI uses *may* charge more that the ones that clubs may use. Throw in a slice of the action for TI and it could be a few percentage in the difference between a home grown solution and the TI one [1]


[1] Not based on any facts, just speculation

joey100

secondly, would seem division 2 is nothing more than an effort to drive more people to pay to represent TI at the eu and world champs. never looked into it, but doesn't appear this is a hugely attractive option for most so this just an effort to make more people apply?not sure what else it does

I agree with Mossy and This is the biggest problem with it that I can see. They seem to say that some races may be restricted to division1 and 2 athletes. Division 1 I have no problem with, people got there on merit and hard work. Division 2 Athletes, in some cases, will be people who were able to afford to go race age group. There has never been a 'real' qualifying standard for this so why do these people suddenly get automatic entry to this division??

Overall I think it looks good, and if implemented well could be an overall positive thing. It's the division 2 thing I wouldn't agree with.

Mr. Flibble

tunney wrote: »

Issue with this is the credit card processing company that TI uses *may* charge more that the ones that clubs may use. Throw in a slice of the action for TI and it could be a few percentage in the difference between a home grown solution and the TI one [1]


[1] Not based on any facts, just speculation

That seems like reasonable speculation. They could still make it mandatory despite that. This would help them reduce their processing charges as their volume would increase, TI's extra slice of the action would help them be a "financially secure organisation" (key objective #1 according to their key objectives flyer) and it would simplify registration for competitors.

EC1000

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

I haven't see the current licence documentation (due to aforementioned issue) but a large
VALID UNTIL END OCT '15 printed on the cover might do the trick. If they are currently only looking at the document colour then one may as well share one license between a couple of friends.

Sharing of cards not possible as barcodes are scanned at all NS events - or at least they are supposed to be anyway.... Also, points are assigned to a licence number as opposed to a name.

Mr. Flibble

EC1000 wrote: »

Sharing of cards not possible as barcodes are scanned at all NS events - or at least they are supposed to be anyway.... Also, points are assigned to a licence number as opposed to a name.

OK, great - so if it's computerised there is no issue in policing out a more granular expiry date.

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Issue with this is the credit card processing company that TI uses *may* charge more that the ones that clubs may use. Throw in a slice of the action for TI and it could be a few percentage in the difference between a home grown solution and the TI one [1]


[1] Not based on any facts, just speculation

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

That seems like reasonable speculation. They could still make it mandatory despite that. This would help them reduce their processing charges as their volume would increase, TI's extra slice of the action would help them be a "financially secure organisation" (key objective #1 according to their key objectives flyer) and it would simplify registration for competitors.

I know from previous involvement in race organisation that this is indeed the case. There is a premium charged by TI for processing the payments, it comes out of the club cut of the entry fee.

The balancing equation is the cost of either 3-5% Paypal fees per transaction or the cost of an SSL cert ~€120 + merchant gateway + web design time and labour for a once off annual event or paying a premium to TI for them having the headaches.

I'd vote TI all the way on this one for peace of mind. The last thing an event organiser would fancy is a CC breach or issue.

Shadowman et al are commercial events outside of the club structure so they are TI sanctioned (fee payable) for license but quite right to process their own payments.

tunney

AKW wrote: »

I know from previous involvement in race organisation that this is indeed the case. There is a premium charged by TI for processing the payments, it comes out of the club cut of the entry fee.

The balancing equation is the cost of either 3-5% Paypal fees per transaction or the cost of an SSL cert ~€120 + merchant gateway + web design time and labour for a once off annual event or paying a premium to TI for them having the headaches.

I'd vote TI all the way on this one for peace of mind. The last thing an event organiser would fancy is a CC breach or issue.

Shadowman et al are commercial events outside of the club structure so they are TI sanctioned (fee payable) for license but quite right to process their own payments.

The *key* piece of information is the premium paid to TI.

EC1000

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

OK, great - so if it's computerised there is no issue in policing out a more granular expiry date.

I think you are trying to come up with a solution for a problem that IMO does not exist. Why is June to June better than Jan to Jan? It's immaterial to the thread in any event........

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

The *key* piece of information is the premium paid to TI.

From TI race organiser pack (on TI website)

·

5% admin charge on total race entries – This is the lowest in the market.
· All race entry fees will be transferred to you prior to the event. – There will be a monthly transfer of money to the race organiser with this becoming more regular as the event draws closer.
· Reduced work load for event organiser as TI can deal with refunds where money is held by TI.
· Race organiser can easily identify TI members and those that require an ODL.

When you consider that most merchant services are charging ~2-2.5% for online transactions and Paypal 3-5% the cut to TI is not unreasonable

Mr. Flibble

EC1000 wrote: »

I think you are trying to come up with a solution for a problem that IMO does not exist. Why is June to June better than Jan to Jan? It's immaterial to the thread in any event........

The problem, as I saw it, is that not as many people as desired were buying the full license. The reason that I (and therefore likely many others) did not buy a full license is the perceived lack of value purchasing late in the year as the license would be valid for a shorter period than had I purchased in January. I would have bought the license had it lasted for a full year as opposed to only, say, 6 months.

June to June would be no better than Jan to Jan if that was a solid period for all licenses. I was proposing that June to June be the period if the license was purchased in June. And Jan to Jan be the period if purchased in Jan, etc.

But I agree that this may not actually be a problem as TI make more money if people purchase many ODLs opposed to a single yearly license, and that is possible preferable for them.

tunney

Lets be honest the presence of the DIV2 really says what this is all about.

BTH

EC1000 wrote: »

I think you are trying to come up with a solution for a problem that IMO does not exist. Why is June to June better than Jan to Jan? It's immaterial to the thread in any event........

To put this off topic item to bed, TI are clearly trying to promote club membership among its own membership. TI membership is required in order to take part in club sessions, and if you join TI in October-December your membership is valid until the following December, meaning people can join a club and begin training with them at the start of winter training without having to pay for the remainder of the current calender year and again in the new year.

Therefore the memberhsip format will not change, and I see no good reason to change it. The only thing I can possibly suggest is making it easier to find out about and compare the different costs between the two levels of membership and ODL on the TI website. I know I looked for it about a year ago and couldn't find it for ages.

sconhome

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

But I agree that this may not actually be a problem as TI make more money if people purchase many ODLs opposed to a single yearly license, and that is possible preferable for them.

Personally I think you are looking at this the wrong way. It's not all a money making racket

ODL is hardly the preferred system as it will tie up resources processing , printing and posting cards during what is often a busy season. It is a great system for anyone who wants to do one or two events.

You can buy your annual card from November and it arrives in the post in January for the coming season. TI needless to say organisationally are quieter in the winter months so it would be favourable for them to deal with all the event admin at this time of year.

I see your point though, maybe they could do a half year from June to Jan for anyone who tries with a ODL and loves the sport, that would be a solid move.

rainbow kirby

AKW wrote: »

ODL is hardly the preferred system as it will tie up resources processing , printing and posting cards during what is often a busy season. It is a great system for anyone who wants to do one or two events.

You can buy your annual card from November and it arrives in the post in January for the coming season. TI needless to say organisationally are quieter in the winter months so it would be favourable for them to deal with all the event admin at this time of year.

I see your point though, maybe they could do a half year from June to Jan for anyone who tries with a ODL and loves the sport, that would be a solid move.

The licence thing goes pretty much the other way here - a lot of races include the cost of a one-day license and a refund is made at registration to those who present a BTF license. Not sure which works better really...

Mr. Flibble

AKW wrote: »

Personally I think you are looking at this the wrong way. It's not all a money making racket.

I didn't mean to suggest it was a racket. Apologies to TI if my posts came across that way. I was trying to say that I don't have an issue if they make decisions that increase their revenue. That's their business, not mine.

I only thought that a simple way to increase full membership uptake would be to remove the disincentive of purchasing licenses later in the year.

HI2002

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.

Tell me, what is the point in having the proposed Level 1 license just because you are able beat all around you througout the whole of the island of Ireland yet when you go abroad you get creamed by the UK and other European countries with genuinely ELITE athletes??? If they are that good (these proposed Level 1 License holders), wouldnt they be carded? If these "Elites" are considered that good - and not just good Age Grouper athletes - then they should be specifically targeted and carded (forget having a special Level 1 License for them becuase they don't need it) .... races should be picked for them abroad - TI should support them to improve their standard by supporting this as an initiative. I think there is an unrealistic view of how good our Elites are (goldfish bowel syndrome), some wishful thinking (I too would love to see Ireland win a gold medal in Rio or indeed anywhere), all being confused with the development of the sport. I'm not sure that these proposed changes will be good for our sport, bearing in mind that it is the majorty - the lower end of the Age Group athletes who at the end of the day are filling in the other side of the gap for TI funding.

peter kern

but even to go abroad you have to practise at home to be prepared for the next level. Would you not think so ? I do howerve agree that it would be better to run this series in conjunction with Uk races so they come over to 1 or 2 races.
I thinkthe term elite should call it devleopment license as it will mainly benefit the juniors and older people looking into Itu racing or more like in cycling where an a1 cyclist is the level bellow a pro.

BTw dont forget that irelands best ever triathlete Aillen Morrison started as an age group athlete and so did Conner Murphy and Bryan keane ( who did those develoment races when living aboad in australia for a year) .... just saying

HI2002 wrote: »

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.

Tell me, what is the point in having the proposed Level 1 license just because you are able beat all around you througout the whole of the island of Ireland yet when you go abroad you get creamed by the UK and other European countries with genuinely ELITE athletes??? If they are that good (these proposed Level 1 License holders), wouldnt they be carded? If these "Elites" are considered that good - and not just good Age Grouper athletes - then they should be specifically targeted and carded (forget having a special Level 1 License for them becuase they don't need it) .... races should be picked for them abroad - TI should support them to improve their standard by supporting this as an initiative. I think there is an unrealistic view of how good our Elites are (goldfish bowel syndrome), some wishful thinking (I too would love to see Ireland win a gold medal in Rio or indeed anywhere), all being confused with the development of the sport. I'm not sure that these proposed changes will be good for our sport, bearing in mind that it is the majorty - the lower end of the Age Group athletes who at the end of the day are filling in the other side of the gap for TI funding.

Huff n Puff

HI2002 wrote: »

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.

Tell me, what is the point in having the proposed Level 1 license just because you are able beat all around you througout the whole of the island of Ireland yet when you go abroad you get creamed by the UK and other European countries with genuinely ELITE athletes??? If they are that good (these proposed Level 1 License holders), wouldnt they be carded? If these "Elites" are considered that good - and not just good Age Grouper athletes - then they should be specifically targeted and carded (forget having a special Level 1 License for them becuase they don't need it) .... races should be picked for them abroad - TI should support them to improve their standard by supporting this as an initiative. I think there is an unrealistic view of how good our Elites are (goldfish bowel syndrome), some wishful thinking (I too would love to see Ireland win a gold medal in Rio or indeed anywhere), all being confused with the development of the sport. I'm not sure that these proposed changes will be good for our sport, bearing in mind that it is the majorty - the lower end of the Age Group athletes who at the end of the day are filling in the other side of the gap for TI funding.

Darn it. You have us all sussed out. I always wanted to be the big fish in the small pond. There can be no other reason for wanting to develop triathlon on this island.

Racing abroad is a very important step in the development of top elite triathletes in this country. That however, does not mean that we should neglect the development of the sport on this island. They are not mutually exclusive ideas. We need to put in place stepping stones for those looking to progress on to racing abroad. If we make the system in Ireland better and raise the standards here then it will be easier to make the final step to racing abroad.

I don't have an unrealistic view of how good our elites are and resent the goldfish bowl accusation. I know exactly what the limitations are. I have a realistic view of how good our top domestic triathletes could be. Its all about raising standards here.

It's not all about racing abroad anyway. You seem to have this mind set where if you are not good enough to race abroad then you should be just happy with your lot back here on this 'goldfish bowl'. I presume you have a problem with categorised cycling races too? Why bother with A1, A2, A3 and A4 races? Sure just lump all the racing cyclists in with the leisure cyclists and have a free for all - sure if you are not racing on the continent then there is no point having this A1 category and then suffering from this 'goldfish bowl syndrome'.

Like it or not, there is a domestic race scene on this goldfish bowl. The choice is to either make this as strong as possible or do nothing. Anything that helps develop the sport on this island so as to make it more competitive should be applauded. You would swear our talented crop of juniors don't race every week on this island - they do - would it not be better if they faced a better class of racer? Would that not prepare them a little better and get them to train a little harder?

P2C

HI2002 wrote: »

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.


If you look at the small numbers of Irish athletes racing internationally at the . It is more to do with finances and cost of sending athletes to races. Its very expensive. Therefore, the policy will be to send the very best. Leaving the rest at home to race non drafting races and eventually leave the sport.

Look at the recent class of Juniors - Sexton, Doherty, O Brien, O Riley, Jackson, Spears and the host of new juniors and youth athletes on the rise. How many of them are being sent to international races on a regular basis. These lads need to get exposure to draft legal racing for their development locally before sending them to international races. How many Irish Triathletes are carded at the moment. (Aileen, Bryan & Ben)

They should have to qualify by rising to the top. If they are exposed to the environment that they are expected to compete in regularly you would expect them to improve.

Look at Colin Bolger last year. A decent age grouper who went across the pond and figured he could compete in the British super series. He might not have won but he was still able to compete. There are a decent pack of age group athletes that can swim withing 30-45 secs of the top Juniors.

In 2014 I have seen Sexton and Bjorn Ludick doing the same. No disrespect to Bjorn although a fine triathlete but their are at least 20 age groupers of a higher standard.

If you bring together the top Juniors, Youth athletes, Development athletes and the top 20-30 age groupers together for a super series. You will aid in the development of these athletes across the board. The best then should go to the next level ETU and hopefully a few breach the top level

tunney

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Darn it. You have us all sussed out. I always wanted to be the big fish in the small pond. There can be no other reason for wanting to develop triathlon on this island.

Racing abroad is a very important step in the development of top elite triathletes in this country. That however, does not mean that we should neglect the development of the sport on this island. They are not mutually exclusive ideas. We need to put in place stepping stones for those looking to progress on to racing abroad. If we make the system in Ireland better and raise the standards here then it will be easier to make the final step to racing abroad.

I don't have an unrealistic view of how good our elites are and resent the goldfish bowl accusation. I know exactly what the limitations are. I have a realistic view of how good our top domestic triathletes could be. Its all about raising standards here.

It's not all about racing abroad anyway. You seem to have this mind set where if you are not good enough to race abroad then you should be just happy with your lot back here on this 'goldfish bowl'. I presume you have a problem with categorised cycling races too? Why bother with A1, A2, A3 and A4 races? Sure just lump all the racing cyclists in with the leisure cyclists and have a free for all - sure if you are not racing on the continent then there is no point having this A1 category and then suffering from this 'goldfish bowl syndrome'.

Like it or not, there is a domestic race scene on this goldfish bowl. The choice is to either make this as strong as possible or do nothing. Anything that helps develop the sport on this island so as to make it more competitive should be applauded. You would swear our talented crop of juniors don't race every week on this island - they do - would it not be better if they faced a better class of racer? Would that not prepare them a little better and get them to train a little harder?

We all like the cycling licensing system, its simple and elegant, motivating and functional. But we are triathletes so lets go with something so much more complicated.

You may not suffer from goldfish bowl syndrome (and I doubt that as you are well known to be arrogant and elitist) but lots do. Lots do.

Solobally8

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Darn it. You have us all sussed out. I always wanted to be the big fish in the small pond.

Sorry to point this out to you Shane, you will never be a big fish

peter kern

We all like the cycling licensing system, its simple and elegant, motivating and functional. But we are triathletes so lets go with something so much more complicated.

triathletes like complicated ;-)
but you are quite right and i think even a b c would be enough.

Huff n Puff

tunney wrote: »

You may not suffer from goldfish bowl syndrome (and I doubt that as you are well known to be arrogant and elitist) but lots do. Lots do.

Plenty of people do alright, but lots more are as down to earth as you will find in any sport. But again, just because a few people let these things go to their head it doesn't mean that we abandon the development of triathlon in Ireland. You will always get delusional people.

Solobally8 wrote: »

Sorry to point this out to you Shane, you will never be a big fish

That's actually quite funny. Who would have though that you were a comedian?! I am due my growth spurt any day now.

tunney

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Plenty of people do alright, but lots more are as down to earth as you will find in any sport. But again, just because a few people let these things go to their head it doesn't mean that we abandon the development of triathlon in Ireland. You will always get delusional people.

Emmm I got my threads mixed up, this is not the drafting thread.

Huff n Puff wrote: »

That's actually quite funny. Who would have though that you were a comedian?! I am due my growth spurt any day now.

So it is true that you are related to jackyback?

ShineyShiney

I like the idea of regionalising the race calendar, makes more sense than the 150km rule. It would also give a lot more input to clubs in the structure of the "local" race calender.

i would also suggest mandatory TI entry system for sanctioned races. The system may need a few tweaks but its not bad.

I dislike the division idea, It may solve the problem of head to head racing for the more competitive but it seems like a lot of change for a minor problem. How many races in this country are big enough to have this problem and couldn't nearly anyone on here look at the entry list for most and pick the contenders at little more than a glance and create an elite wave.

peter kern

btw pretty big fish in the aquathon last night ;-) A 15.2x swimmer for 1500 meter beats javier gomez s 1500 m time by a good bit ;-) . The big fish are out there in ireland and need a platform to get started.

HI2002 wrote: »

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.

Tell me, what is the point in having the proposed Level 1 license just because you are able beat all around you througout the whole of the island of Ireland yet when you go abroad you get creamed by the UK and other European countries with genuinely ELITE athletes??? If they are that good (these proposed Level 1 License holders), wouldnt they be carded? If these "Elites" are considered that good - and not just good Age Grouper athletes - then they should be specifically targeted and carded (forget having a special Level 1 License for them becuase they don't need it) .... races should be picked for them abroad - TI should support them to improve their standard by supporting this as an initiative. I think there is an unrealistic view of how good our Elites are (goldfish bowel syndrome), some wishful thinking (I too would love to see Ireland win a gold medal in Rio or indeed anywhere), all being confused with the development of the sport. I'm not sure that these proposed changes will be good for our sport, bearing in mind that it is the majorty - the lower end of the Age Group athletes who at the end of the day are filling in the other side of the gap for TI funding.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

btw pretty big fish in the aquathon last night ;-) A 15.2x swimmer for 1500 meter beats javier gomez s 1500 m time by a good bit ;-) . The big fish are out there in ireland and need a platform to get started.

Was it an accurate course? I know some clubs (ie that one) previously deliberately shortened their races to make them the fastest in Ireland.

argolis

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Mostly off topic, but as we're discussing the software system...

I've entered a couple of events this year and I'm amazed that any average joe actually manages to get entered into these races. The whole system is utterly confusing for the uninitiated. You are typically bounced around between a number of websites during registration process and often (always?) have to manually make a separate purchase of a 1 day license on the TI website, if you are not a TI member.

A little thought into the UX the entry purchase would go a long way.

Solution:

• Make it easy for event organizers to incorporate one day TI license purchase in the event entry on their website.
• Don't require people to make TI license purchases on the TI website.

The fact that the TI membership runs from Jan - Jan means that most newbies who aren't sure how many events they are going to enter and very unlikely to purchase a years membership anytime past April.

Solution:
Reduce registration cost each month accordingly
or
Have the membership run for 12 months after payment.



Making a website design guide available to the people running the event would go a long way. The amount of event websites that don't clearly show the

• Time of the event
• Cost of entry
• Location of the event
• Event distances
• Registration closing time
• Sign on times and locations

on the website is crazy. And the number of sites that say "X is the same as last year's event" is quite frustrating.
It's not easy to put yourself in the shoes of a visitor when creating a website, but I think it's worth making event organisers aware that there may be issues with theirs.

Totally agree with these points. Also, for my first TI annual membership I went to sign up for a race and had to enter my TI Membership number on some other website. I didn't have the card with me, so I thought I'd get it from the TI website as they have a member sign-in area. Nowhere in there does it say what my TI membership number is. I even emailed the admins cos I thought I was being daft but they confirmed that's the case and had to look it up and email it to me. What website logs you in and then doesn't tell you your basic account info?

Without wishing to denigrate TI's efforts, the website needs more thought put into it. I'd like to be able to log in and then sign up/manage a few races without having to jump around to several different sites. It was very confusing to begin with for myself and for two work colleagues all starting out and it's only after doing this a few times that I'm more comfortable that it's "normal" to be bounced from website to website during sign-ups.

I look forward to a revamp when it happens and my thanks to all contributing to improving the Irish race experience

EC1000

tunney wrote: »

Was it an accurate course? I know some clubs (ie that one) previously deliberately shortened their races to make them the fastest in Ireland.

Dont think he is saying that he did that time last night but he has done that in the past.... he did CK Tri 2 years ago as part of a relay and was out of the water 4 mins ahead of anyone else (in a pretty decent NS field). A hell of a swimmer.