Skills shortage could cost thousands of software jobs

House of Blaze

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0714/630565-jobs/

Seeing this reported on rte news all day.

I'm really curious to know what employers find are the skills that candidates are lacking?

Any input would possibly be of benefit to those seeking employment in the IT sector.

Manach

Based on my experiences on the job market, this report is nonsense. The skill shortages is for workers those having IT skills, years of experience and an willingness to work for low wages.

House of Blaze

Interesting.

From the report:

However, when it comes to challenges, experiences are similar.

Skills are in short supply, with as many as half of all vacancies filled by inward migration.

(Emphasis mine)

Do you think that this contributes to the inward immigration? If skilled candidates can come over and get what would be better money for them over here as opposed to Irish candidates who feel they aren't getting properly remunerated for their skills?

InReality

I think its a bit misleading for the authors to focus on education when the demand ( and always has been ) for experience.

Also pay is a huge deal and wasn't mentioned.
Irish IT people with experience have far more choice and ability to picking high pay jobs due to contacts ; hence overseas workers pick up the ( relatively speaking) lower paid jobs.

Competitiveness is just jargon for lower pay in most of these type of reports

House of Blaze

So it's purely down to employers not being prepared to shell out for suitably experienced people?!

If that's the case then it seems a little reality check could be what employers are looking for!

It's funny you mention it actually as I have forever seen roles described on payscale.com etc. which seemed ludicrously high for IT work but I suppose that's what the market will pay over there.

Eoin

House of Blaze wrote:

So it's purely down to employers not being prepared to shell out for suitably experienced people?!

No, I really don't think it's that simple at all; based on my experience as a hiring manager in a tech company over the last few years.

Phoebas

I hire developers from time to time and find it really difficult to find decent experienced candidates. Money doesn't get discussed until well into the process so it isn't about that.

House of Blaze

I see.

Experienced in what way though particularly?

Purely from the perspective of your requirements or just in general?

Would you say it is more the amount of experience they lack or the quality of their experience?

The report in the op mentions that 25% of multinationals have been in ireland for 15 years or more for example.

Since I imagine they would be big employers in general, there must be large reserves of experienced people based purely on that surely?

Phoebas

House of Blaze wrote: »

I see.

Experienced in what way though particularly?

Purely from the perspective of your requirements or just in general?

Would you say it is more the amount of experience they lack or the quality of their experience?

The report in the op mentions that 25% of multinationals have been in ireland for 15 years or more for example.

Since I imagine they would be big employers in general, there must be large reserves of experienced people based purely on that surely?

I think the problem that smaller indigenous software companies (my case) have is that they find it hard to compete against the big multinationals. Money is part of it, but also the multinationals have a more visible presence and are more attractive to good candidates.

Finding graduates and more junior developers is easy, but companies need a mix of youth and experience and finding people with, say, 5 years of good quality development experience is very difficult.

Drexel

In my place we cannot get Irish people, mainly due to money. Its cheaper to hire from eastern Europe

House of Blaze

Thanks for the response!

That actually kind of correlates with the report in a way:

Its interim report described a vibrant, fast-growing Irish software industry with tremendous potential, but with big differences between indigenous and foreign firms.

It found 80% of software companies in Ireland are Irish, with a quarter of those less than three years old.

So if your experience is typical then it would be a legitimate concern for the vast majority of indigenous SME's that constitute the industry here.

Stheno

Phoebas wrote: »

I think the problem that smaller indigenous software companies (my case) have is that they find it hard to compete against the big multinationals. Money is part of it, but also the multinationals have a more visible presence and are more attractive to good candidates.

Finding graduates and more junior developers is easy, but companies need a mix of youth and experience and finding people with, say, 5 years of good quality development experience is very difficult.

I'd agree with this, you tend to find a lot of people in the multinationals stay for a long time, and with the packages (benefits, not just salaries) that they offer, SMEs can't compete.

As well though, I would say that there is a severe shortage of people with certain skills, experience of applying those skills, and the qualifications to back them up, I'm talking ten years plus experience, which would mean those people would have been in at the start of the multinationals. I know in my area it can be like getting blood out of a stone.

And no amount of education will make up for the lack of practical experience over years.

You've also got the contract option, people known in their specialities will probably never be out of work for long if they are good at what they do.

They can earn maybe 1.5 times on contract what they do on permanent contracts.

beauf

So if you don't hire inexperienced people, you'll never create experienced people. Its like over fishing.
Likewise if you won't pay high wages people will move to other things to get higher salaries.

Not everyone likes IT either. I think comp Sci has one of the highest drop put rates. So people aren't going to bother if they think they will struggle to get a job once they graduate.

eezipc

Reports like this have been around for years and I find it a bit frustrating.
I finished my degree in 2004 and I remember reading the same report back then.
I don't necessarily believe that companies cannot get the staff, rather than the companies don't want to pay the going rate.
It's easy for a company to hire from outside the EU if they have reports like this to back themselves when applying for visas.
I know myself that there is not as much work out there as is suggested by the media. I am in contract work at the moment and I am trying to get a full time permanent role but 80% of the jobs I apply for, I don't even get a response.

beauf

People say its not about money. But I know a lot of developers who don't bother with ads with no salary mentioned. They've had their time wasted too often by interviewers that try to low ball them once they are in the door. Also common is the jobs which are offering % in a startup in lieu of salary.

Someone will always reply to this, that they hire on the basis of someone interest in the project, and they have no problem getting people. Each to their own.

Mr. Loverman

beauf wrote: »

So if you don't hire inexperienced people, you'll never create experienced people. Its like over fishing.

Do you want to be the manager who hires inexperienced people and ends up not being able to get quality work done on time?

I've hired many tech people. It is extremely hard to get good staff. I have no problem hiring a graduate if they can prove to me they actually like IT and are good at it, but those people are extremely rare. What I typically see are people who dislike IT but are doing it because there are jobs, and their skills are pretty low. Not only are their skills low, but they aren't too interested in self-learning. They want me or another senior person to hold their hand. And then of course there's the Aspergers type thing (too common in IT) which is another massive issue.

So this is the problem as I see it:

1. Most people don't like IT.
2. Too many people are doing IT only because there are jobs. This means there are tons of unmotivated, poorly skilled candidates.
3. IT is huge and requires a lot of self-learning and experimentation. This goes against (1) and (2) above.
4. Many of the good people have some sort of personality disorder. If I had to describe it I'd call it extreme shyness + extreme arrogance. Managing these people is unpleasant.
5. It is not in a manager or company's interest to hire these people.

I don't know what a realistic solution is.

beauf

There's a direct correlation between not hiring in experienced people and training them up, and not being able to get experienced staff. The other issue is churn. If you only hire experience people they will not stay as long as people who need to gain experience. In many companies there's business knowledge you lose when people leave. Hiring only experienced people is really taking a short term view and fastest return. Which can cause other problems. Like a skills shortage.

At some point it won't simply be the IT people that will be outsourced. It will be the entire business. It will move to where the people are.

Mr. Loverman

beauf wrote: »

There's a direct correlation between not hiring in experienced people and training them up, and not being able to get experienced staff. The other issue is churn. If you only hire experience people they will not stay as long as people who need to gain experience. In many companies there's business knowledge you lose when people leave. Hiring only experienced people is really taking a short term view and fastest return. Which can cause other problems. Like a skills shortage.

At some point it won't simply be the IT people that will be outsourced. It will be the entire business. It will move to where the people are.

You are thinking about the problem from an employees perspectice. Employers think differently. For example, it does not make financial sense to be an employees first employer.

rockbeast

eezipc wrote: »

Reports like this have been around for years and I find it a bit frustrating.
I finished my degree in 2004 and I remember reading the same report back then.
I don't necessarily believe that companies cannot get the staff, rather than the companies don't want to pay the going rate.
It's easy for a company to hire from outside the EU if they have reports like this to back themselves when applying for visas.
I know myself that there is not as much work out there as is suggested by the media. I am in contract work at the moment and I am trying to get a full time permanent role but 80% of the jobs I apply for, I don't even get a response.

Nail on head.

House of Blaze

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

So this is the problem as I see it:

1. Most people don't like IT.
2. Too many people are doing IT only because there are jobs. This means there are tons of unmotivated, poorly skilled candidates.
3. IT is huge and requires a lot of self-learning and experimentation. This goes against (1) and (2) above.
4. Many of the good people have some sort of personality disorder. If I had to describe it I'd call it extreme shyness + extreme arrogance. Managing these people is unpleasant.
5. It is not in a manager or company's interest to hire these people.

I don't know what a realistic solution is.

It strikes me though that you could apply those same points to most industries.

I mean how many people really love corporate accounting, financial services or insurance for example?

Also, why does this only apply to indigenous IT people and not foreign candidates?

Granted, in college I knew enough people doing it because they felt they had to or to please the parents or what have you, but I wouldn't have thought it was a much higher percentage than you might find in any other course.

To be honest I think most people would struggle to get through a comp sci degree without a shred of aptitude (if the drop out rate was is anything to go by) or commitment.

And if all of these candidates are so poorly skilled, why do many secure employment abroad upon emigrating?

beauf

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

You are thinking about the problem from an employees perspectice. Employers think differently. For example, it does not make financial sense to be an employees first employer.

Not being able to get employees seems to make less sense.

rockbeast

IDA issues grant to foreign ICT company to set up on the Emerald Isle.

ICT company arrives and declares that it can't get indigenous, sufficiently skilled employees.

Visas issued to foreigners willing to work for less more skilled than Irish workers.

Rinse. Repeat.

Elessar

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Do you want to be the manager who hires inexperienced people and ends up not being able to get quality work done on time?

I've hired many tech people. It is extremely hard to get good staff. I have no problem hiring a graduate if they can prove to me they actually like IT and are good at it, but those people are extremely rare. What I typically see are people who dislike IT but are doing it because there are jobs, and their skills are pretty low. Not only are their skills low, but they aren't too interested in self-learning. They want me or another senior person to hold their hand. And then of course there's the Aspergers type thing (too common in IT) which is another massive issue.

So this is the problem as I see it:

1. Most people don't like IT.
2. Too many people are doing IT only because there are jobs. This means there are tons of unmotivated, poorly skilled candidates.
3. IT is huge and requires a lot of self-learning and experimentation. This goes against (1) and (2) above.
4. Many of the good people have some sort of personality disorder. If I had to describe it I'd call it extreme shyness + extreme arrogance. Managing these people is unpleasant.
5. It is not in a manager or company's interest to hire these people.

I don't know what a realistic solution is.

All fair points Mr. Loverman, but you are thinking about it from a very narrow viewpoint. If there is a skills shortage, and you are in the software business, why not take on one or two inexperienced developers, give them the experience needed (assisting with smaller projects etc.) and then after a number of months you'll have one or two developers with experience in your business and your products. Continue to hire experienced candidates by all means (if you can find them) but by giving one or two graduates with a genuine interest and aptitude a chance, you are building up a team of experienced people.

If you are caught inside this box, think outside it. Yes, it would require investment of time, training, patience on a small few but the end result is the experienced candidates you need.

Half the problem is that the multitude of software companies in Ireland only want the cream of the crop. But there aren't enough to go around. And still the inexperienced don't get a chance, to plug the skills shortage hole. I would argue that part of the reason IBM, Microsoft and the likes hoover up so much talent is that they give the inexperienced a chance through their graduate programs in the first place.

rozeboosje

There's nothing wrong with "inward migration". All these people come here and work. That gives a boost to the IT industry, which is a good thing. These people then have to live somewhere, they have to eat, they need entertainment, they need services, they need transport, etc, etc, etc, and if there aren't enough Irish people to fill IT jobs, all these requirements will create plenty of jobs in OTHER sections of the economy. Everybody wins.

Ireland is still a fairly sparsely populated country, and especially urban areas other than Dublin would benefit greatly from an increase in local population.

rockbeast

rozeboosje wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with "inward migration". All these people come here and work. That gives a boost to the IT industry, which is a good thing. These people then have to live somewhere, they have to eat, they need entertainment, they need services, they need transport, etc, etc, etc, and if there aren't enough Irish people to fill IT jobs, all these requirements will create plenty of jobs in OTHER sections of the economy. Everybody wins.

Ireland is still a fairly sparsely populated country, and especially urban areas other than Dublin would benefit greatly from an increase in local population.

If you can't see the fallacy in the statement "Skills shortage could cost thousands of software jobs" then you will never be reasoned with.

rozeboosje

rockbeast wrote: »

If you can't see the fallacy in the statement "Skills shortage could cost thousands of software jobs" then you will never be reasoned with.

Absolutely, but I'm not sure why you deemed it necessary to state that in reply to my post. Or are you posting in agreement?

hmmm

Many companies are spending little or nothing on training or upskilling employees, and expect highly skilled job-seekers to be available at their beck and call. As obviously there is a limit to how many they can source here, they look to bring them in from abroad.

I'm not against immigration, I think it is a good thing overall, but it shouldn't be made too easy for companies to simply claim the skills aren't available and hire from abroad. At a minimum, companies should have to show that they are hiring junior employees and assisting their development as a quid pro quo.

Mr. Loverman

beauf wrote: »

Not being able to get employees seems to make less sense.

It's cheaper to have one fewer employee than an additional unskilled employee.

It's all about money. When you get to management you will understand where I'm coming from...

Elessar wrote:

All fair points Mr. Loverman, but you are thinking about it from a very narrow viewpoint. If there is a skills shortage, and you are in the software business, why not take on one or two inexperienced developers, give them the experience needed (assisting with smaller projects etc.) and then after a number of months you'll have one or two developers with experience in your business and your products. Continue to hire experienced candidates by all means (if you can find them) but by giving one or two graduates with a genuine interest and aptitude a chance, you are building up a team of experienced people.

That doesn't make financial sense though...

Do you know how long it takes to train a developer and how often developers change jobs?

beauf

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

It's cheaper to have one fewer employee than an additional unskilled employee.

It's all about money. When you get to management you will understand where I'm coming from...

That doesn't make financial sense though...

Do you know how long it takes to train a developer and how often

developers change jobs?

I know exactly what your talking about. I don't agree with it though. Its a short term gain. Long term loss.

beauf wrote: »

There's a direct correlation between not hiring in experienced people and training them up, and not being able to get experienced staff. The other issue is churn. If you only hire experience people they will not stay as long as people who need to gain experience. ...

You (and many others) don't see the connection though.

beauf

From when I started in IT the age profile has definitely aged considerably. I expect a lot will retire around the same time too.

Mr. Loverman

beauf wrote: »

You (and many others) don't see the connection though.

I don't agree with you. In my experience it is the older people who stay longer. IT is pretty famous for the inexperienced regularly jumping jobs to get pay raises.

beauf

Thats hardly a problem if people don't hire them in the first place. People would hardly be hiring them if they are no value, and money must be an issue if they are moving for money. They could also be moving for experience and training which they aren't getting. Funny how its not about money and conditions and training, but we always end up right back there.

Elessar

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I don't agree with you. In my experience it is the older people who stay longer. IT is pretty famous for the inexperienced regularly jumping jobs to get pay raises.

This is a moot point, really. You'll have the same problems with experienced developers (ie. if you don't offer what they are worth, they will not work for you) and they are just as likely to change jobs if you are not competitive. Same for the inexperienced. If you don't increase their wages as they get more experienced/skilled, they will move. This is an employers problem, not an employees.

I am aware of how long my suggestion would take, and how much of an investment it would be but its short term pain for long term gain. Say, if you get a developer in, train him up, get him the experience and he is now a year or two with you and looks for a pay rise, would you not give it to him?

Can you see that if you did, you'd have the experienced developer you wanted and the pay would be the same or less than just hiring experience from the market? And you wouldn't have the problems of finding the talent, because you'd already have it.

Mr. Loverman

I'm not sure what else I can say at this stage. Emotional or "take a risk" arguments don't work at a management level. It all comes back to money and it doesn't make sense to hire graduates unless you are a very large company who for PR reasons or whatever are willing to do a loss making graduate program.

Mr. Loverman

I know some banks are willing to hire graduates. But they train you in COBOL...

InReality

What if it were planned over a number of years . Surely most companies have 3/5 year plans, which include financial projections ?

beauf

InReality wrote: »

What if it were planned over a number of years . Surely most companies have 3/5 year plans, which include financial projections ?

They way it used to work was they paid for your training but if you left early you had to pay it back.

beauf

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I'm not sure what else I can say at this stage. Emotional or "take a risk" arguments don't work at a management level. It all comes back to money and it doesn't make sense to hire graduates unless you are a very large company who for PR reasons or whatever are willing to do a loss making graduate program.

How much does the skills shortage cost?

I've seen it from the other POV where a business/project becomes dependant on a small group of expert or indeed a single expert. When they leave the business can be decimated, projects fail costing hundreds of thousands even millions. At worst the expert can go to a competitor or set up a similar business.

Mr. Loverman

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm just explaining how management think and why most of the arguments people are making here won't work.

InReality

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm just explaining how management think and why most of the arguments people are making here won't work.

Do you think they would be possible if part of long term planning , say in a companies 3 year forecast ?

Mr. Loverman

InReality wrote: »

Do you think they would be possible if part of long term planning , say in a companies 3 year forecast ?

It wouldn't be easy. The dev manager would have to make a case for hiring graduates (which isn't in his interest). So it would probably have to come from finance as a way of cutting costs, but wouldn't get the support of the dev manager.

I was willing to hire graduates if they could prove to me they genuinely like IT and are good at it. Those people are so rare though. Really, the graduates need to take an honest look at themselves to see if they're part of the problem.

House of Blaze

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I was willing to hire graduates if they could prove to me they genuinely like IT and are good at it. Those people are so rare though. Really, the graduates need to take an honest look at themselves to see if they're part of the problem.

I can't speak from any experience on the matter since I am a graduate myself, but I would refer back to my question which is that if there is something so lacking in Irish graduates, why is it that many are quite easily able to secure jobs elsewhere when they've emigrated?

For example, I have recently put my CV up on a UK jobs site and have actually been contacted numerous times by companies and other recruiters interested in my application.

I am lining up several interviews and have already had several phone interviews in preparation for this.

In fact I have probably been in more contact with UK employers in the three or four weeks I've had my profile up than I have been in touch with Irish employers in the 13 months I've been job hunting in Ireland.

I'm not trying to get on your case or anything, and I appreciate your input thus far. I really am just seeking an insight into the mindset of Irish employers in general.

Also, as far as ensuring a graduate has at least a modest amount of competency in the field, I would have thought that there are tests the dev manager could design in order to fulfill that requirement?

And in what way would a graduate be able to prove they are passionate about what they do?

Thanks again for your input.

beauf

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm just explaining how management think and why most of the arguments people are making here won't work.

Its not an argument. Its how it has worked for years in almost every industry. Except IT when they thought they could skip that whole process with no consequence. Well the consequence is a shortage of experienced people.

But you're right. Many places don't want to know. So they'll just keep doing it.

beauf

House of Blaze wrote: »

I...In fact I have probably been in more contact with UK employers in the three or four weeks I've had my profile up than I have been in touch with Irish employers in the 13 months I've been job hunting in Ireland.....

Remember UK is a bigger market. They have bigger economy of scale to finance training. There really no need to limit yourself to a small place like Ireland.

House of Blaze

beauf wrote: »

Remember UK is a bigger market. They have bigger economy of scale to finance training. There really no need to limit yourself to a small place like Ireland.

That may be true, but these aren't big multinationals i'm dealing with by any means.

They are SME's as would be the case over here.

And while it does seem that I may have been limiting myself to Ireland I just wish that the employment market was in a position to provide me with work here.

I mean I had the Irish government pay my college fees and provide me with welfare payments throughout college and now I feel as I have to leave and contribute to another economy now that I have qualified due to the jobs market.

It wouldn't have been my preference.

shruikan2553

They can want someone who has 5 years experience but if they arent getting their staff already trained then they'll have to do it themselves. If they dont want to train some people then keep waiting and stop complaining, they brought it on themselves. Its like the hotels complaining they cant get staff, they can, its just they want them to have more experience so either offer more money or lower their expectation.

Phoebas

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They can want someone who has 5 years experience but if they arent getting their staff already trained then they'll have to do it themselves. If they dont want to train some people then keep waiting and stop complaining, they brought it on themselves.

What actually happens is that companies hire from abroad or simply don't invest in projects that they would otherwise invest in.

Stheno

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I'm not sure what else I can say at this stage. Emotional or "take a risk" arguments don't work at a management level. It all comes back to money and it doesn't make sense to hire graduates unless you are a very large company who for PR reasons or whatever are willing to do a loss making graduate program.

I think one key point (and I've done it) is that people at a lower grade generally might get e.g. a 5k rise by moving to another company.

When presented with the "I'm leaving" existing employers often will not match the offer, so they move.

I've been a junior in IT and managed juniors, I have to say managing juniors was far worse than being a junior.

Junior staff need far more handholding, they take experienced staffs time, so in a sense they double the amount of time lost in getting tasks done.

If they are unwilling or unable to learn, they become a massive liability too.

Then the rot sets in after a couple of years, and all your investment is down the drain.

House of Blaze

Stheno wrote: »

I've been a junior in IT and managed juniors, I have to say managing juniors was far worse than being a junior.

Junior staff need far more handholding, they take experienced staffs time, so in a sense they double the amount of time lost in getting tasks done.

If they are unwilling or unable to learn, they become a massive liability too.

Then the rot sets in after a couple of years, and all your investment is down the drain.

But surely that's true of every industry?

I don't see why it's solely an IT issue.

I used to work in a solicitor's office and they had a trainee there who had a law degree but couldn't write in a letter in business english. I ended up doing most of her paperwork and constantly proofreading her documents and helping her correct her correspondence for example.

I'm sure doctors and engineers don't walk into jobs with the full skillset required but there doesn't appear to be the same level of bias in those industries as far as I can see.

Stheno

House of Blaze wrote: »

But surely that's true of every industry?

I don't see why it's solely an IT issue.

I used to work in a solicitor's office and they had a trainee there who had a law degree but couldn't write in a letter in business english. I ended up doing most of her paperwork and constantly proofreading her documents and helping her correct her correspondence for example.

I'm sure doctors and engineers don't walk into jobs with the full skillset required but there doesn't appear to be the same level of bias in those industries as far as I can see.

I meant to say that one factor unique to IT imo is the attrition rate.

I started out in tech support a very long time ago with a multinational

Lots of training, lots of promotional opportunities, I was part of an intake of 60. On average there was an intake of 60 every month at the time, and the company trained them fully paid for a full six weeks.

15 years on, less than 50% of that class still work in pure IT. They have either left the profession entirely, moved into ancillary roles such as sales etc.

Most left within five years.

House of Blaze

Stheno wrote: »

I meant to say that one factor unique to IT imo is the attrition rate.

I started out in tech support a very long time ago with a multinational

Lots of training, lots of promotional opportunities, I was part of an intake of 60. On average there was an intake of 60 every month at the time, and the company trained them fully paid for a full six weeks.

15 years on, less than 50% of that class still work in pure IT. They have either left the profession entirely, moved into ancillary roles such as sales etc.

Most left within five years.

Fair enough, I can see how that could happen. Especially in some areas.

I would have thought that that would only increase the demand though?

You said yourself that they were taking on 60 per month 15 years ago. If anything, considering how much more incorporated into near every level of industry IT is now, the personnel requirement should only be increasing presumably?

Though perhaps the innovation that has occurred within those 15 years has led to an increase in what can be done with less manpower.

Interesting perspective though, thanks for the input!