Running Earth Wire from Fuseboard to Boilerhouse.

danjo-xx

2 story end terraced house.

Fuseboard up at ceiling at Hall door.
Boilerhouse in back garden.

Getting an electrician in to do this,

1. Roughly how much should it cost.
2. Does cable need any protection.
3. Suggestions on best routing.


I'm thinking of getting it routed along the eves of the house.

Alternative would be up to attic and diagionally accross to back of house, over existing installation, sounds messy and not neat.

2011

What is the purpose of the earth, is there power in the shed already and no CPC (circuit protective conductor) ?
If there is power out there already, what size MCB is it fed from?
What size earth cable?
Is it for equipotential bonding?


to answer your questions:
1) Hourly rate + materials. Not a great answer, but hard to say more without seeing it. Almost days work?
2) Yes it needs mechanical protection at any point that it is buried in a wall, in the ground or at any point that it is likely to get a knock.
3) Would have to see it, but cable runs in a attic should not go " as the crow flies".

danjo-xx

Sorry should have explained better.

I'm sure its for equipotential bonding all right as I'm getting a new boiler in.

Cable is 10sq and must not be taken from any tails, has to run direct from fuseboard to boilerhouse.

Just wondering can the cable be run along the eves without any protection or does it need protection along its entire length when run outside of a house.

Want to make sure its done right and know what I should expect before I get a quote.

Sir Arthur Daley

What is your setup op? is it gas or oil, if its not copper what is the name of the pipework that joins the boiler house to the house?

danjo-xx

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

What is your setup op? is it gas or oil, if its not copper what is the name of the pipework that joins the boiler house to the house?

Setup is oil and changing to gas hopefully.

Pipework at boiler is copper then changes to qualplex before going under the concrete path and into house, then back to copper.

2011

danjo-xx wrote: »

Just wondering can the cable be run along the eves without any protection or does it need protection along its entire length when run outside of a house.

I can't see an issue with this.
However it won't look very appealing.

mikeyjames9

i was trying to figure this out

what's the rationale behind this

presumably this is to bring a bond out to the shed?

they do it in the UK when bringing 3-core to outbuildings with extraneous metal..no mention of it here in et 101?



it doesn't cover the house though

2011

I should add that there is a school of thought that states that you should install a local earth rod at the boiler house if it is not that close to the house.
Why?
Because the ground potential will be different there.
You are connecting conductive parts in the shed to the MET. This would bring these parts to the same potential to the MET.
However this could be at a different potential to the ground at the shed.
If the potential difference is great enough touching conductive parts in the shed could result in electrocution (only in the most extreme circumstances).
A topic for another day perhaps.....

mikeyjames9

2011 wrote: »

I should add that there is a school of thought that states that you should install a local earth rod at the boiler house if it is not that close to the house.
Why?
Because the ground potential will be different there.
A topic for another day perhaps.....

not sure about that

i believe you either convert to TT and fit a rod

or else you bring a 'main bond' out to bond extraneous metal in the outbuilding


this doesn't provide main bonding for the house though

shane 007

Could it possibly be for the gas pipe to meet gas regs? Gas pipe running from meter to shed which would require a 10mm separate independent 10mm earth cable.

2011

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

not sure about that

About what?
That this school of thought exists?
A quick Google search will confirm that it does.

this doesn't provide main bonding for the house though

Agreed, bonding in a shed could not provide bonding in a house.

mikeyjames9

2011 wrote: »

About what?
That this school of thought exists?
A quick Google search will confirm that it does.



Agreed, bonding in a shed could not provide bonding in a house.

is there a need for a main bond in the outbuilding?


i think so, if the outbuilding contains extraneous metalwork


et101 doesn't have much to say on this in comparison to the UK where the practices are well established
http://www.voltimum.co.uk/articles/electrical-installations-outdoors-supply-detached-outbuilding

Sir Arthur Daley

Quoting psalms from the UK regs will only be lead to confusion.

2011

Mod warning:
Stay on topic.
No more insults.
Thank you.

mikeyjames9

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Quoting psalms from the UK regs will only be lead to confusion.

my point was that the bond will provide equipotential bonding in the outbuilding
if there is extraneous metalwork present

this is a separate matter to the main equipotential bonding in the maim building

it is a simple concept explained in the document

Sir Arthur Daley

The op said he is installing a gas boiler, gas mains will need bonding. The other pipe work will need bonding if they are conductive. If they are not I would not bond them.

mikeyjames9

yes i've only just seen that now

i'm not familiar with gas but i was making the point about outbuildings and bonding

Sir Arthur Daley

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

i'm not familiar with gas but i was making the point about outbuildings and bonding

With reference to uk work pratices and regs, would it be appropiate for me to start on about german electrical pratices or any other country for that matter?

2011

Last warning

shane 007

Either way, if the OP is changing from oil to gas & the gas boiler is remaining where the existing oil boiler pipework is, there must be an independent 10mm earth brought from the consumer unit to the gas pipe.

This is most likely what the OP is asking about & does it need to be in a conduit externally, etc.

mikeyjames9

shane 007 wrote: »

Either way, if the OP is changing from oil to gas & the gas boiler is remaining where the existing oil boiler pipework is, there must be an independent 10mm earth brought from the consumer unit to the gas pipe.

This is most likely what the OP is asking about & does it need to be in a conduit externally, etc.

what regulation is this, presumably a gas reg?

what does it say exactly?


i'm curious about this main bonding of gas pipe in a outside location


i don't think et101 covers it but i'm not familiar with gas

shane 007

I'm not sure what is states in ET101 but I am sure it would be covered there.

Either way, ET101 will supersede IS813 for electrical guidance/regs.

Here's what IS813 says...

mikeyjames9

are gas pipes normally metallic and extraneous(in contact with the ground outside) then?

this main bond protects persons in the boiler house location only and doesn't serve any purpose as far as the main dwelling is concerned


i don't know of any requirement for main bonding in a boiler house location in et101


it would be important to bond all extraneous items together if doing this

shane 007

OP said the boiler pipework is qualpex. But all boilers will have minimum first meter in copper.
Gas will be copper or galvanised GB. It maybe PE from the meter to the boiler house.

For gas regs, the issue is not the boiler house. It's the gas pipe that requires bonding to satisfy IS813 as the RGI must be satisfied that all aspects of IS813 are met.
Gas pipe must have an independent 10mm earth to the consumer unit but the boiler heating pipes can be equipotentially bonded from the gas pipe. This is as per gas regs.
If the gas pipe is not bonded, the gas system cannot be commissioned & put into service.

Robbie.G

If the gas main enters the house at any point (cooker/gas fire)tag it there and there's no need to run the 10sq to the boiler house.

shane 007

Robbie.G wrote: »

If the gas main enters the house at any point (cooker/gas fire)tag it there and there's no need to run the 10sq to the boiler house.

No mention of other appliances, just a new boiler in the boiler house so if the gas was being brought into the house, that would be the easiest place to bond it.

If we assume it's not, what would best aesthetic method of getting the 10mm bond from the consumer unit to the boiler house if it has to run externally?

mikeyjames9

if the gas main also enters the house

then a tag on the pipe at the boiler house location wouldn't comply with et101

danjo-xx

I reckon fitting an earth rod at boilerhouse would cost a lot more than running a cable around the house or would it. Someone said running a cable could take a days work


There will be no gas mains entering the house.

Robbie.G

shane 007 wrote: »

No mention of other appliances, just a new boiler in the boiler house so if the gas was being brought into the house, that would be the easiest place to bond it.

If we assume it's not, what would best aesthetic method of getting the 10mm bond from the consumer unit to the boiler house if it has to run externally?

If the gas supply is going to be brought to the boiler house the earth could always be brought in the same run.
Unless it's going to be moled then I would probably run it to attic down rear of house and then to boiler house in 30mm round wavin

Sir Arthur Daley

Robbie.G wrote: »

If the gas main enters the house at any point (cooker/gas fire)tag it there and there's no need to run the 10sq to the boiler house.

The gas service line would have to be metallic for this to work, wouldnt the gas line be going underground from house to boiler house and is it only pe pipe permitted for this? open to correction.

mikeyjames9

danjo-xx wrote: »

I reckon fitting an earth rod at boilerhouse would cost a lot more than running a cable around the house or would it. Someone said running a cable could take a days work


There will be no gas mains entering the house.

forget the rod it's not relevant

just try and stick to a short direct route
if you have to run a 10sq out

Bruthal

danjo-xx wrote: »

I reckon fitting an earth rod at boilerhouse would cost a lot more than running a cable around the house or would it. Someone said running a cable could take a days work


There will be no gas mains entering the house.

Fitting an independant earth rod won't bond anything.

mikeyjames9

what's the need for a main bond then if this gas service pipe is plastic?

Sir Arthur Daley

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

what's the need for a main bond then if this gas service pipe is plastic?

Pe pipe is not permitted indoors.

Robbie.G

wouldnt the gas line be going underground from house to boiler house and is it only pe pipe permitted for this? open to correction.[/quote]

The service line can be copper or GB also

shane 007

Underground gas pipe can be PE, plastic coated/wrapped copper or wrapped galvanised GB.

If there are electrical services being buried with the gas pipe, there would have to be a minimum separation distance of 300mm.

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

what's the need for a main bond then if this gas service pipe is plastic?

Once the PE surfaces externally, it will be protected by a GRP sleeve & transitioned to copper or galvanised GB. This would then have to be bonded.

Sir Arthur Daley

Robbie.G wrote: »

The service line can be copper or GB also

If you had a situation where all the gas line was metallic are the gas regs satisfied if one bonds it say in the house even though gas boiler is in external boiler house?

shane 007

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

If you had a situation where all the gas line was metallic are the gas regs satisfied if one bonds it say in the house even though gas boiler is in external boiler house?

It would. There are 3 locations as to where to bond the gas pipe; within 500mm of the gas meter but not within the meter box, at the point of entry to the building or where the gas pipe becomes first visible within the property.

Obviously, if there was PE used between the meter & the property, bonding at the meter would be pointless & one of the latter 2 locations would have to be used.

.G.

Amazing how people can get so passionate about main bonding that they abuse people!

danjo-xx

.

danjo-xx

1. Anyone know if wiring regulations permit a 10sq earth cable be run, along roof joists or ridge board or must cable be kept at ceiling joists level, in case roof blows off or something:D

2. Does it need to be run thru conduit in attic.

Have a sparks doin it want to make sure he does it right.

Robbie.G

danjo-xx wrote: »

1. Anyone know if wiring regulations permit a 10sq earth cable be run, along roof joists or ridge board or must cable be kept at ceiling joists level, in case roof blows off or something:D

2. Does it need to be run thru conduit in attic.

Have a sparks doin it want to make sure he does it right.

Cable canbe clipped at high level alright.
It should be mechanically protected if under 1.5mtrs.
If your mans a sparks he should know this

danjo-xx

When sparks does the job should I be given a cert or just a receipt.

danjo-xx

Robbie.G wrote: »

Cable canbe clipped at high level alright.
It should be mechanically protected if under 1.5mtrs.
If your mans a sparks he should know this

Have you any source for this, I've had several 'Registered' sparks out and they laughed at me when I mentioned this.

mikeyjames9

danjo-xx wrote: »

Have you any source for this, I've had several 'Registered' sparks out and they laughed at me when I mentioned this.

i've never heard of it anyhow and i'm reasonably familiar with ET101:2008

2011

danjo-xx wrote: »

Have you any source for this, I've had several 'Registered' sparks out and they laughed at me when I mentioned this.

"Registered" means that they paid some money to join a "club"
It does not make them superior electricians.

What Robbie.G is referring to is a rule of thumb or good practice.
This would have materialised from a number of places in ET101:2008 including:

● 132.5 External influences

The design of the electrical installation shall take into account the extremal influences to which it will be subjected.

● 133.3 Conditions of installation
Electrical equipment shall be selected so as to withstand safely the external influences characteristic of its location to which it may be exposed. If, however, an item of equipment does not have by design the properties corresponding to its location, it may be used on condition that adequate additional protection is provided as part of the completed electrical installation.

● 5226.1 Wiring systems shall be selected and erected so as to avoid damage arising from mechanical stress due to impact, penetration or compression during installation, use and maintenance.

Robbie.G

danjo-xx wrote: »

Have you any source for this, I've had several 'Registered' sparks out and they laughed at me when I mentioned this.

It might not be a specific rule but that's the way I was taught good working practice.And if a "reg " spark doesn't know what I meant then that's their loss.
If I was running a cable I would always duct/conduit under 1.5 mtrs even higher but I'm old school

danjo-xx

2011 wrote: »

"Registered" means that they paid some money to join a "club"
It does not make them superior electricians.

If the consumer can't trust a 'Registered' sparks then where the hell does that leave the ordinary Joe Soap:rolleyes:

2011

danjo-xx wrote: »

If the consumer can't trust a 'Registered' sparks then where the hell does that leave the ordinary Joe Soap:rolleyes:

Unfortunately time and time again it has been shown that customers can't trust registered electricians, there are a few cowboys out there.
However this is not my point.

I am not suggesting that there is not a role for registered electrical contractors (I was a REC many years ago myself), clearly there is.
My point is that by when an electrician becomes registered it does not somehow make them a better or more knowledgeable electrician.

roy rodgers

a couple of question I would like to clarify.

if you cant get a 10 sq earth to the gas line or boiler house can a new rod be installed and bonded from there??

if you can get the bonding at the meter say, and that pipe ran to the boiler in copper and also to the hot press. is it ok to cross bond it at the boiler then???

Zimmerframe

danjo-xx wrote: »

If the consumer can't trust a 'Registered' sparks then where the hell does that leave the ordinary Joe Soap:rolleyes:

Often they are the same person.