Series Link Down ?

MACHEAD

Went to setup a series link record on RTÉ2 last night with my Humax HDR T2, and found the 'Record Entire Series' option missing. Anyone else having issues with series link on Saorview at the moment ?

The Cush

Just checked here on a Panasonic 635, no series link available when attempting to setup a new timer. Existing scheduled series linked timers working OK.

In the old days

Very annoying. Nobody in authority seems to care a hoot about series link on saorview.

The Cush

Me thinks something else is going on here, series link not working on my non-Saorview Panasonic but checked it on my old unreliable Saorview-approved Walker PVR which I relocated to a bedroom TV months ago and series-link is working.

Have Saorview done something to cripple series link to non-approved receivers? The sole Saorview approved PVR has been getting a bashing (and deservedly so) here on the forums.

If so, the options are do you buy a piece of crap Saorview-approved Walker PVR with working series link and unreliable recording or a non-approved PVR without series-link but with reliable recording? Reliable recording wins for me.

In the old days

My panny PVR is now in the same boat. Surely it would be better for the saorview system to technically overlap with the UK D Book standards where possible. Saorview is already a niche product and to make it unnessarily messy or exclusive as regards compatibility with the UK surely is shooting themselves in the foot especially for viewers in the overlap areas e.g. Border, NI, East Coast etc.

The Cush

In the old days wrote: »

Surely it would be better for the saorview system to technically overlap with the UK D Book standards where possible. Saorview is already a niche product and to make it unnessarily messy or exclusive as regards compatibility with the UK surely is shooting themselves in the foot especially for viewers in the overlap areas e.g. Border, NI, East Coast etc.

If it is the case that they have deliberately done this it would appear they have little concern for the for the Saorview viewer out there and are only concerned about the damage to Walker's bottom line and their unreliable PVR.

RED L4 0TH

MACHEAD wrote: »

Went to setup a series link record on RTÉ2 last night with my Humax HDR T2, and found the 'Record Entire Series' option missing. Anyone else having issues with series link on Saorview at the moment ?

Same here. Series link not available for anything on Saorview. Checked ahead in the guide for stuff like Coronation Street and no series link is available. Series link option still there for the Freeview channels. Absolutely pathetic if it's a deliberate move by Saorview as suggested by The Cush.

Souriau

Just confirm that my Humax HDR Fox T2 also lost Serial Link via Saorview.

The Cush

An update on this, when I posted last time I mentioned that existing series link were working OK but I see from tomorrow they are gone also.

Still couldn't recommend the Walker PVR.

Gerry Wicklow

Likewise my Saorview approved Samsung tv is not updating series links anymore.

Souriau

Saorview should had gone with UK D book system and then the STB would be a lot cheaper as like in UK. But they chose to have half of UK and half of EU system making their version of STB more expensive and not fully workable with some of the STB, like time, subtitles, serial recording and so on.

Sam Russell

Souriau wrote: »

Saorview should had gone with UK D book system and then the STB would be a lot cheaper as like in UK. But they chose to have half of UK and half of EU system making their version of STB more expensive and not fully workable with some of the STB, like time, subtitles, serial recording and so on.

That was not really an option as the D book is secret, and did not comply with the system chosen here. The Nordig system was chosen because Boxer won the beauty contest and that was their home system. It was modified to include MHEG5 which the British use, but that has subsequently been included in the Nordig spec.

The coding used does appear to be capricious in its apparently deliberate attempts to make UK equipment not function here. Remember the Panny sets that could not scan for stations and the fact the summer time does not work on UK sets. So series link suddenly falling over is no surprise.

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

Saorview should had gone with UK D book system and then the STB would be a lot cheaper as like in UK. But they chose to have half of UK and half of EU system making their version of STB more expensive and not fully workable with some of the STB, like time, subtitles, serial recording and so on.

In hindsight the UK standard with MPEG-4 (like New Zealand) would have been the better sytem for here considering we chose a receiver standard from a consortium that withdrew from the process less than 12 months after they were awarded the contract.

Regarding series link, it has worked without problem on non-approved PVRs since it was launched and now Saorview have chosen, it appears, to protect Walker's market by imposing an inferior product on DTT consumers here.

mrdtv2010

The Cush wrote: »

In hindsight the UK standard with MPEG-4 (like New Zealand) would have been the better sytem for here considering we chose a receiver standard from a consortium that withdrew from the process less than 12 months after they were awarded the contract.

Regarding series link, it has worked without problem on non-approved PVRs since it was launched and now Saorview have chosen, it appears, to protect Walker's market by imposing an inferior product on DTT consumers here.

Why are you surprised? There has been a long history of protectionism in Irish TV standards which has always resulted in a) higher industry input costs b) higher consumer costs c) lower capability and d) net benefit to distributors outside the Republic of Ireland. Don't they *EVER* learn? This will be a complete pain in the a** for terrestrial viewers in overlap areas. The beneficiaries will be UPC and Sky with seamless solutions which actually work.

Incidentally Walker is a brand which has absolutely no traction in the UK: hardly surprising given its poor pedigree.

khumbu

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was modified to include MHEG5 which the British use, but that has subsequently been included in the Nordig spec.

Is there any Nordig approved PVRs available in Scandinavia?

fat-tony

What seems to have happened is that RTENL/2RN/Red Bee have changed the coding identifying the CRID (the programme and series link info) to conform to the standard as defined in the Nordig specification for all Saorview receivers and PVRs.

The value identifying CRID was 0x31 and 0x32 (ie ASCII character '1' and '2'). This seems to work with Freeview-type PVRs / receivers. '1' to identify the link containing programme ID, '2' to identify the link containing series ID.

The values now for programme and series link are 0x01 and 0x02. These are the actual values contained in the Nordig specification and conform to ETSI standards for DVB.

It doesn't really help anyone with a Freeview PVR, but it seems to be just a tightening of the specifications. I would imagine the reason the UK values are different is that they are part of the proprietary D book spec. Why those values were coded into the actual EPG data on Saorview up to recently I would not even begin to speculate on :rolleyes:

Here is an extract from the Nordig spec:

12.4.6.1 CRID type 0x01 – programme CRID (NorDig PVR only)
Programme CRIDs are used to identify two or more EIT events as being the same programme. This
prevents duplicate programmes being recorded from within the same series and also allows alternative
programme instances to be recorded (or offered for recording) if a booking clash occurs.
It is not necessary for all EIT events to have a programme CRID. An event may only include a maximum
of one programme CRID. In the current context they are only useful where alternative instances or split
programmes are being identified.
12.4.6.2 CRID type 0x02 – series CRID (NorDig PVR only)
Where a series CRID is conveyed in a CID according to the signalling outlined, it is to be used to only
refer to an editorial concept of a series.
An event may be associated with more than one series, i.e. an event may include several series CRIDs.
Where an event is associated with more than one series, an invitation to record ‘programmes in the same
series as this event’ would book to record all events in all series associated with the selected event (see
more section 13.3.3).
12.4.6.3 CRID type 0x03 – recommendation CRID (NorDig PVR only)
This identifies a looser linkage to another programme or series. A recommendation may point to a single
event (programme CRID) or a series (series CRID).
A CRID in the CID shall be marked as crid type 0x03 (recommendation) and be a programme or series
CRID.
It is not required that the recommendation CRID be present in the current scope of EIT. If the event
referenced by the recommendation CRID is not present in the current scope of EIT, the recommendation
may be presented to the user when it appears in EIT. If a recommendation CRID does not appear in EIT
within 91 days of the referencing event it shall be discarded.

Souriau

Are there any PVR that the serial link recording working well today?

Sam Russell

fat-tony wrote: »

What seems to have happened is that RTENL/2RN/Red Bee have changed the coding identifying the CRID (the programme and series link info) to conform to the standard as defined in the Nordig specification for all Saorview receivers and PVRs.

The value identifying CRID was 0x31 and 0x32 (ie ASCII character '1' and '2'). This seems to work with Freeview-type PVRs / receivers. '1' to identify the link containing programme ID, '2' to identify the link containing series ID.

The values now for programme and series link are 0x01 and 0x02. These are the actual values contained in the Nordig specification and conform to ETSI standards for DVB.

It doesn't really help anyone with a Freeview PVR, but it seems to be just a tightening of the specifications. I would imagine the reason the UK values are different is that they are part of the proprietary D book spec. Why those values were coded into the actual EPG data on Saorview up to recently I would not even begin to speculate on :rolleyes:

@ fat-tony
Is it up to the PVR firmware, or could Saorview broadcast both systems within the epg?

Could the same be done with summer-time so Freeview TVs could keep their clock correct in the summer?

fat-tony

As regards the time issue, I have already posted the simple solution that Saorview could transmit two time codes (TOT) in the data stream as is done on SKY - one with IRL country code and another with GBR country code. They would be identical and would allow Freeview boxes to set the clock properly when tuned to Saorview.

As regards the Series Link info, I would imagine that the PVR firmware would have to be changed to recognise 0x01 / 0x02 instead of 0x31 / 0x02. But then, a firmware change in the PVR could accomodate the IRL country code (but that would make it a non-Freeview receiver).

I've switched off my Humax Freesat box a couple of weeks ago and I am now running a linux receiver with terrestrial and satellite tuners in a combo Saorview/Freesat setup. It's fine in our household, but it's not plug in and forget. Definitely a set-up for the technically-minded. However, using a Harmony remote with the same button configuration as the old Humax set-up SWMBO is managing fine. Doesn't have true series link but the auto timer facility is sophisticated enough to record the soaps and anything else recurring that I've set for recording - nothing missed yet!

- just a thought. If you are using a Freeview PVR are there any country options in it outside of GB? For example - France, Germany? This might restore the series linking if the CRID stndard is correctly implemented for outside of GB. Might also get the clock in sync for summertime.

Souriau

It is a mess up big time.
It is not hard to put in both country code for time correction like on Freeview so why can not the same be done on Saorview?
I am sure the same can be done for subtitles to allow Freeview TV to received Saorview subtitles and now then the serial link.
Why would the people in charge of setting up this would annoy viewers that their TV or PVR does not fully work as it should?
How many approved certified Saorview PVR on the market today?

Souriau

Is the Walker PVR working properly with the serial link recording since the changes made?

The Cush

fat-tony wrote: »

- just a thought. If you are using a Freeview PVR are there any country options in it outside of GB? For example - France, Germany? This might restore the series linking if the CRID stndard is correctly implemented for outside of GB.

No country option available for the Panasonic PVR.

Souriau wrote: »

How many approved certified Saorview PVR on the market today?

Just 1, a piece of ****e from Walker

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

Is the Walker PVR working properly with the serial link recording since the changes made?

Series link works but recording is still unreliable.

STB

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Incidentally Walker is a brand which has absolutely no traction in the UK: hardly surprising given its poor pedigree.

Thats because its based in Ireland and their products are largely aimed at the Irish market, hence certification for Saorview.

They are a rebadged product from Turkished based OEM Vestel. Akin to Bush, Toshiba, Sharp, JVC, Hitachi, Metronic, Technika which are old defuct purchased names (mainly by large retailers) using rebadged board designs from Vestel for the UK.

The coders for the OEM boxes can be reached at futura website for rasing bugs or at least asking for workarounds.

@fat-tony. The Freeview/HD boxes do indeed expect identifiers that adhere to crid type="0x31" uri="crid: etc for programe and crid type="0x32" uri="crid: etc for series link. Did you do a TS analysis to see the Hvalues for the newly used Saorview CRID ?

Souriau

The Cush wrote: »

No country option available for the Panasonic PVR.



Just 1, a piece of ****e from Walker

Just 1... that's crazy to change the setting now when other PVR works well.
now all other PVR can't see the CRID but only Walker...
I give up...

Sam Russell

I do not understand how they can change the coding that effects the Freeview PVRs without affecting the Saorview ones. How is this possible?

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not understand how they can change the coding that effects the Freeview PVRs without affecting the Saorview ones. How is this possible?

Presumably because the Saorview PVRs can identify the correct CRIDs for both services but the Freeview spec PVRs can't identify the new Saorview CRID values.

So much for the MoU between the 2 governments and the interoperability of standards.

Sam Russell

Can not the Humax Freeview PVRs have their country changed by a secret menu? Are these units working correctly when the country=Ireland?

I have a Samsung TV that is Saorview Approved and can record to an external HDD but it does not offer series link. I wonder why?

Gerry Wicklow

Sam Russell wrote: »

Can not the Humax Freeview PVRs have their country changed by a secret menu? Are these units working correctly when the country=Ireland?

I have a Samsung TV that is Saorview Approved and can record to an external HDD but it does not offer series link. I wonder why?

I found it used to work when set to UK but not IRL, but then you had to manually correct for summer time. Now it doesn't work for either.

fat-tony

STB wrote: »

...

@fat-tony. The Freeview/HD boxes do indeed expect identifiers that adhere to crid type="0x31" uri="crid: etc for programe and crid type="0x32" uri="crid: etc for series link. Did you do a TS analysis to see the Hvalues for the newly used Saorview CRID ?

erm - post #16 @STB - keep up - values now 0x01 and 0x02

fat-tony

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not understand how they can change the coding that effects the Freeview PVRs without affecting the Saorview ones. How is this possible?

I'd say the Walker/Vestel developers saw the old CRID value at the time and coded for it as well as the specified value.

captain_boycott

Souriau wrote: »

Is the Walker PVR working properly with the serial link recording since the changes made?

walker records flawlessly once the program series link info is captured and the timer is set. Problem is that after approx every 2 weeks, the series links fails to update for one show or another and you need to then go into the EPG and set up the series links again.

So as long as you keep an eye once a week in advance to ensure the timers are set, it will not miss anything...but a bummer if you away on holiday for more than 2 weeks!

The Cush

captain_boycott wrote: »

walker records flawlessly once the program series link info is captured and the timer is set. Problem is that after approx every 2 weeks, the series links fails to update for one show or another and you need to then go into the EPG and set up the series links again.

I replaced my Walker PVR with the Panasonic earlier this year. When I installed it I setup approx 10 series link timers to test it out. At the beginning of July I deleted the test recordings, over 100 recordings of the 6 and 9 News plus lesser numbers of other programmes including Tonight with VB on TV3 once I pointed out the reason the series link wasn't working for that programme.

No missed programmes, no resetting of series link timers, timer buffer. True flawless recording that I didn't get with the Walker PVR.

fat-tony

The Cush wrote: »

I replaced my Walker PVR with the Panasonic earlier this year. When I installed it I setup approx 10 series link timers to test it out. At the beginning of July I deleted the test recordings, over 100 recordings of the 6 and 9 News plus lesser numbers of other programmes including Tonight with VB on TV3 once I pointed out the reason the series link wasn't working for that programme.

No missed programmes, no resetting of series link timers, timer buffer. True flawless recording that I didn't get with the Walker PVR.

I feel your pain, mate. The Humax Freesat has worked for me for years on satellite. On Saorview I've only had either xbmc or now enigma based firmware. Openelec (xbmc) has been ok, but not perfect. Enigma has been flawless in operation over the past 2 - 3 weeks in regards to recording series and timeshift.

The Cush

fat-tony wrote: »

I feel your pain, mate.

Thanks.

Series link was nice to have but stable recording is my priority so I'll live without it.

From the info you posted earlier I see the Freeview CRID values 0x31, 0x32 and 0x33 fall within the 0x20 - 0x3F (User private) range in the ETSI spec.

The only reason that occurs to me for using the Freeview+ CRID type initially was to make series link compatible with Freeview PVRs in NI but now Walker see their PVR losing market share to Freeview PVRs here because of the problems reported with it and may have persuaded Saorview to make the change.

haymur

How do I find the people responsible for this change and where do I contact them for a statement on this change which affects hundreds of people with good PVR's and TV's. We all should write to them and see how they respond

The Cush

haymur wrote: »

How do I find the people responsible for this change and where do I contact them for a statement on this change which affects hundreds of people with good PVR's and TV's.

2RN - http://www.2rn.ie/contact-us/.

Their reply will most likely be "only Saorview approved products are guaranteed to work with all aspects of the Saorview service, most of the time, as none of the main manufacturers will bother supplying the small Irish market with a decent PVR, so tough luck".
They'll probably omit the last part

haymur

The Cush wrote: »

2RN - http://www.2rn.ie/contact-us/.

Their reply will most likely be "only Saorview approved products are guaranteed to work with all aspects of the Saorview service, most of the time, as none of the main manufacturers will bother supplying the small Irish market with a decent PVR, so tough luck".
They'll probably omit the last part

Yes but did the people who waited and waited past the failed due delivery date's for the Walker to finally arrive get a machine that works ''with all aspects of the Saorview service'' . I have seen a large number of complaints from people with the Walker whereas with the other brands there is praise coming from people with Japanese and Korean PVR's. I bought a Humax T2 about a year before Saorview launched a PVR which could record their exiting transmissions.

In the old days

The Cush wrote: »

2RN - http://www.2rn.ie/contact-us/.

Their reply will most likely be "only Saorview approved products are guaranteed to work with all aspects of the Saorview service, most of the time, as none of the main manufacturers will bother supplying the small Irish market with a decent PVR, so tough luck".
They'll probably omit the last part

I've just emailed them anyway. They have instructions on how to tune in an unapproved STB on their website. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Do they expect people in spillover areas to have two PVRs, one for Freeview and one for Saorview. Madness.

RED L4 0TH

Sam Russell wrote: »

Can not the Humax Freeview PVRs have their country changed by a secret menu? Are these units working correctly when the country=Ireland?

I have the Humax HDR Fox T2 and you could change the country via a secret menu. Ireland was in the list, but selecting it disabled series link. Had to be set to England for it to work, until now.

fat-tony

Have you tried setting it back to Ireland since the CRID change? Maybe series link will work now?

RED L4 0TH

fat-tony wrote: »

Have you tried setting it back to Ireland since the CRID change? Maybe series link will work now?

Just tried. No luck.

If anyone wants to access this menu, do the following:

Menu > Settings > System > System Information > Red > Green > Yellow > Blue > Green > Yellow > Blue.

JDxtra

This seems like a pointless change... right?

It has killed series link on my Saorview approved Samsung TV.

I do have my TV set to UK to get the Freesat channels. Will see if setting back to Ireland fixes series link - but if I do that, I'll only get now/next data for satellite and no nice Freesat EPG.

If they are "fixing" things, they should remove the additional space from the start of all program descriptions.

Gerry Wicklow

JDxtra wrote: »

This seems like a pointless change... right?

It has killed series link on my Saorview approved Samsung TV.

I do have my TV set to UK to get the Freesat channels. Will see if setting back to Ireland fixes series link - but if I do that, I'll only get now/next data for satellite and no nice Freesat EPG.

If they are "fixing" things, they should remove the additional space from the start of all program descriptions.

I tried changing my Samsung ES6300 from UK to Irl to see if it helped but it only made things worse! MHEG5 text stopped working also. At this stage I have pretty much given up on RTÉ ever getting it all right. When you add in things like their inability to correct the EPG for overruns and two versions of the same news story on Aertel, you really begin to wonder if they give a toss at all. Oh yes, don't forget their silent audio streams. :mad:

JDxtra

Samsung are very good at responding to issues. I will check my TV later after I reset it back to Ireland - if series link is still broken I will contact Samsung.

I have already emailed 2rn and RTE. I urge others to do the same. It's in everybody’s interest to have as many recording devices working as possible with Saorview.

mgc102

fat-tony wrote: »

What seems to have happened is that RTENL/2RN/Red Bee have changed the coding identifying the CRID (the programme and series link info) to conform to the standard as defined in the Nordig specification for all Saorview receivers and PVRs.

The value identifying CRID was 0x31 and 0x32 (ie ASCII character '1' and '2'). This seems to work with Freeview-type PVRs / receivers. '1' to identify the link containing programme ID, '2' to identify the link containing series ID.

The values now for programme and series link are 0x01 and 0x02. These are the actual values contained in the Nordig specification and conform to ETSI standards for DVB.

It doesn't really help anyone with a Freeview PVR, but it seems to be just a tightening of the specifications. I would imagine the reason the UK values are different is that they are part of the proprietary D book spec. Why those values were coded into the actual EPG data on Saorview up to recently I would not even begin to speculate on :rolleyes:

Here is an extract from the Nordig spec:

12.4.6.1 CRID type 0x01 – programme CRID (NorDig PVR only)
Programme CRIDs are used to identify two or more EIT events as being the same programme. This
prevents duplicate programmes being recorded from within the same series and also allows alternative
programme instances to be recorded (or offered for recording) if a booking clash occurs.
It is not necessary for all EIT events to have a programme CRID. An event may only include a maximum
of one programme CRID. In the current context they are only useful where alternative instances or split
programmes are being identified.
12.4.6.2 CRID type 0x02 – series CRID (NorDig PVR only)
Where a series CRID is conveyed in a CID according to the signalling outlined, it is to be used to only
refer to an editorial concept of a series.
An event may be associated with more than one series, i.e. an event may include several series CRIDs.
Where an event is associated with more than one series, an invitation to record ‘programmes in the same
series as this event’ would book to record all events in all series associated with the selected event (see
more section 13.3.3).
12.4.6.3 CRID type 0x03 – recommendation CRID (NorDig PVR only)
This identifies a looser linkage to another programme or series. A recommendation may point to a single
event (programme CRID) or a series (series CRID).
A CRID in the CID shall be marked as crid type 0x03 (recommendation) and be a programme or series
CRID.
It is not required that the recommendation CRID be present in the current scope of EIT. If the event
referenced by the recommendation CRID is not present in the current scope of EIT, the recommendation
may be presented to the user when it appears in EIT. If a recommendation CRID does not appear in EIT
within 91 days of the referencing event it shall be discarded.

I get freeview and saorview on my Humax T2. Saorview series link is no longer available on the HDR.
The EU protects freedom of movement (but not series link information). It all most reminds me of the Microsoft explorer monopoly commission controversy years ago!! (I.e. you need a saorview sticker on your box to get series link).

Anyway a few months ago I noticed that UTV (Freeview) and TV3 (Saorview) had the exact same CRID for their shows. Maybe that was causing problems on some equipment and they had to tighten the specifications.

Bummer. I am in an overspill area and can't access the Blacks Mountain Saorview MUX. As a result I am unable to series link Irish Language Programmes. Maybe I should complain to my elected representative as I believe that access to Irish Language channels/ programme was part of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement?

clonion

Just found this thread. I am so annoyed about this - we have a Panasonic box which we love - 1TB & really reliable. Really does not seem fair to me that though we pay our TV license, this very simple info can be turned off and made inaccessible for us. Given that most things we watch are repeated on British channels, I guess I know where we'll be watching them from now on.

JDxtra

No reply yet from either Saorview or RTE.

JDxtra

Got a reply from Saorview...

As for the Series Link issue, if you set the country code / country ID to 'Ireland' you should be able to use series link again. This is usually found in the setup - tuning menu, wherein you will see a prompt on your tuning menu asking you to select from a list what country you are in. The series link feature was linked to country code to improve the stability of series link recording.

realdanbreen

I need a bit of help. I am having problems(power light going off) with a 12v masthead poer supply.From time to time power goes off as it was a short or something, what do I do?

JDxtra

realdanbreen wrote: »

I need a bit of help. I am having problems(power light going off) with a 12v masthead poer supply.From time to time power goes off as it was a short or something, what do I do?

You should start a new thread on this topic, this thread is related to series link issues.