Lidl Alcohol Purchase

Bepolite

Amalgam wrote: »

If you're a regular customer of Aldi, Parnell Street, Dublin, you are guaranteed to witness a customer having an issue over this policy, (often very loudly..) at least once a week.

Personally, I have no issues with this policy. I wish more outlets, particularly certain other supermarkets, would follow suit. *cough* Every Little Helps.

To be fair, having run shops round that area for years, it would be naive to think that this particular outlet doesn't have more of an issue than most. I suspect staff have been told to be very strict.

wolfyboy555 wrote: »

does anyone else notice employees asking if a customer is over 18 when they clearly are? I have seen a few customers who are 40 yrs + and the cashier usually says 'your over 18?' and not in a joking manner. it's like they have to say that to everyone they are not asking for ID!

I've never noticed that but they place themselves on very dodgy ground if they are doing this. (That said given the narrowness of the defence perhaps not). If you ask someone for ID/raise a concern about age, the very worst thing you can do is the proceed with the sale. It was clear you knew there was an issue. You're better off saying nothing than mentioning it then continuing without a Garda Age card.

kampik

What surprised me is that a friend was refused to buy a bottle in tesco with identity card on which he is allowed to travel through EU and few other countries. They said that they can only accept a passport as a valid document. What sense does this make? He obviously doesn't own a passport as this is a legal document and sufficient for border police, garda or any other government body.

Michael D Not Higgins

kampik wrote: »

What surprised me is that a friend was refused to buy a bottle in tesco with identity card on which he is allowed to travel through EU and few other countries. They said that they can only accept a passport as a valid document. What sense does this make? He obviously doesn't own a passport as this is a legal document and sufficient for border police, garda or any other government body.

The problem here is familiarity. The staff are unlikely to be familiar with all EU national ID cards and have no training on how to identify a fake one.

Karede

An Aldi store opened up beside me in the last few months. The first time i shopped there and bought alcohol I was asked for Id. I thought this was funny initially as i'm a married woman in my mid 30's with teenage children and i was doing my weekly shop. I def don't look under 25! That time I just happened to have Id with me and just laughed it off and thought it was a once off.

Nope, next time I was asked for Id again and i didn't have it with me. The guy was making a big deal out of it and I was so embarrassed. It took the lady behind me in the queue to say to the server "are you for real, she is clearly well over age" for him to serve me while mumbling something.

Suffice to say I have never been back to that store. I meant to write a letter of complaint at the time but forgot about it! This thread has just reminded me to do so. I would completely understand it if I was a teenager or early 20's but at my age it is ridiculous, unnecessary and embarrassing.

Michael D Not Higgins

Karede wrote: »

An Aldi store opened up beside me in the last few months. The first time i shopped there and bought alcohol I was asked for Id. I thought this was funny initially as i'm a married woman in my mid 30's with teenage children and i was doing my weekly shop. I def don't look under 25! That time I just happened to have Id with me and just laughed it off and thought it was a once off.

Nope, next time I was asked for Id again and i didn't have it with me. The guy was making a big deal out of it and I was so embarrassed. It took the lady behind me in the queue to say to the server "are you for real, she is clearly well over age" for him to serve me while mumbling something.

Suffice to say I have never been back to that store. I meant to write a letter of complaint at the time but forgot about it! This thread has just reminded me to do so. I would completely understand it if I was a teenager or early 20's but at my age it is ridiculous, unnecessary and embarrassing.

This is the problem with enforcement of the law. You'll eventually get flak for asking the wrong person. Can you not just take it as someone doing their job and show ID? What's the harm if some people in their 20s and 30s have to show ID if it means the teenagers aren't getting their hands on easily accessible alcohol?

hullaballoo

Where is this idea of being qualified to verify a passport/national ID coming from?

Absolute tosh. If someone hands you a passport and you sell them drink on foot of it, unless there is something obviously wrong with the passport, you have a defence.

The problem here is people thinking they have a right to be sold alcohol. This is also absolute tosh. The shop decides what it sells and to whom.

If shops have a strict policy regarding the sale of restricted items like alcohol and cigarettes, then that's their prerogative. If that results in some outlandish situations, that is because the shop has done a good job in clearly defining its policy to its staff and the staff are implementing it blindly with no wiggle-room. That is because they have been told that (a) breaching the policy will cost their jobs and (b) selling alcohol/cigarettes to a minor can/does result in prosecution for both the shop and the person who sold it.

I was in a supermarket recently with a friend who was turning 30 that weekend. We were having a barbecue and had bought tons of food for it. I'm talking about €200 worth of food. We picked up a crate of beer and half a dozen boxes of expensive enough red wine. Now, there are very few minors who have a shopping list anything like this. Nonetheless, we got to the till and both of us were asked to present ID. I have a beard and a haggard look about me and my friend, turning thirty, was turning thirty. No spring chickens are we.

All the same, you can't argue with them. They're doing their job in line with what they've been told. We took it that this was as near to a compliment either of us were likely to get on the eve of turning thirty and just asked them to put the alcohol aside until we could both return with ID, which they did.

On a related/unrelated note. I get severe rage when they rush over to press "Customer is CLEARLY over 25" on the self-service check-outs.

Thoie

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Can you not just take it as someone doing their job and show ID? What's the harm if some people in their 20s and 30s have to show ID if it means the teenagers aren't getting their hands on easily accessible alcohol?

I have no particular problem with showing ID when buying alcohol - my driving license is usually in my handbag. However, as I am so ancient, there was no such thing as a Garda age card when I was around 18ish - they came into existence while I was in my 30s. The insistence that only a Garda Age Card is acceptable proof of age is where things go wrong. One of the proofs that you give the Gardaí when applying for an Age Card can be a passport, so it's a bit bloody ridiculous that a passport itself won't suffice to purchase alcohol.

Most people my age are of the opinion (whether it's true or not) that the Garda Age Card is aimed at 18-22 year olds who would otherwise have to carry a more important/expensive document (like a driving license/passport) around with them. In the past, not everyone in that age group would have one of those documents, and they're both relatively bulky documents to be carrying around on a messy night out in the pub. The Age Card was supposed to be a cheap way to get a convenient proof of age.

Joe prim

Karede wrote: »

An Aldi store opened up beside me in the last few months. The first time i shopped there and bought alcohol I was asked for Id. I thought this was funny initially as i'm a married woman in my mid 30's with teenage children and i was doing my weekly shop. I def don't look under 25! That time I just happened to have Id with me and just laughed it off and thought it was a once off.

Nope, next time I was asked for Id again and i didn't have it with me. The guy was making a big deal out of it and I was so embarrassed. It took the lady behind me in the queue to say to the server "are you for real, she is clearly well over age" for him to serve me while mumbling something.

Suffice to say I have never been back to that store. I meant to write a letter of complaint at the time but forgot about it! This thread has just reminded me to do so. I would completely understand it if I was a teenager or early 20's but at my age it is ridiculous, unnecessary and embarrassing.

In the US, or at least the bits I visit regularly, I am always asked for ID when purchasing alcohol, despite being very obviously of "mature years" Can't say it bothers me in the least, and , significantly, drunken teenagers falling around in public are not a common feature to the same extent as Dublin. Funnily, they're not quite as strict about guns and ammo.....

auldgranny

People in this country are always whinging about people doing their jobs when they are not whinging about people NOT doing their jobs.

Bepolite

hullaballoo wrote: »

Where is this idea of being qualified to verify a passport/national ID coming from?

Absolute tosh. If someone hands you a passport and you sell them drink on foot of it, unless there is something obviously wrong with the passport, you have a defence.

It comes from staff have to be trained to do every aspect of their jobs. There is no point in training them to do something extraneous which takes me to your second point. Has the legislation stating that only a Garda Age card will provide a valid defence been successfully challenged / ignored in practice? Honest question as I know it was rumored there was some challenge going on.

Incidentally the 1988 Act was amended in 2000:

(Very possible I've missed further amendments! I'm fairly sure Westlaw doesn't have consolidated ILA. So I'm working off the statute book.)

“(4) In any proceedings for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for the defendant to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him or her an age card relating to that person or, if the defendant is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to either of those subsections, to prove that an age card relating to the person to whom the intoxicating liquor was sold or delivered was produced by that person to that other person.”.

Now applying a literal interpretation we get 'a defence' but the fact that the reasonable grounds clause has been removed, I would submit, means it's the only defence.

hullaballoo

Ok, that makes a significant difference all right.

I tried very briefly to find out whether the definition of "age card" means only a Garda Age Card or not but I gave up when I realised I was trying to make sense of the Intoxicating Liquor Acts.

It's poor legislating if they have, by omission, made a law that does not allow shops to accept a passport in place of a Garda Age Card. Of course, I'm alive to the possibility (probability) that it could have been intentional to generate revenue from the age cards. (Having checked, though, they only cost €10 and presumably they cost the Govt more in terms of Garda resources, postage etc. than that.) Bizarre law.

Bepolite

hullaballoo wrote: »

Ok, that makes a significant difference all right.

I tried very briefly to find out whether the definition of "age card" means only a Garda Age Card or not but I gave up when I realised I was trying to make sense of the Intoxicating Liquor Acts.

It's poor legislating if they have, by omission, made a law that does not allow shops to accept a passport in place of a Garda Age Card. Of course, I'm alive to the possibility (probability) that it could have been intentional to generate revenue from the age cards. (Having checked, though, they only cost €10 and presumably they cost the Govt more in terms of Garda resources, postage etc. than that.) Bizarre law.

It's made even more bizarre by the fact that the amendment only covers off-licences. Pubs are still allowed the reasonable grounds standard.

hullaballoo

I was about to post something politically motivated then checked myself.

It is not uncommon for publican lobbyists to lobby for more restrictive laws against off-trade. That might explain why pubs can just take account of the cut of your jib ahead of what your actual age is.

Thoie

hullaballoo wrote: »

Ok, that makes a significant difference all right.

I tried very briefly to find out whether the definition of "age card" means only a Garda Age Card or not but I gave up when I realised I was trying to make sense of the Intoxicating Liquor Acts.

It's poor legislating if they have, by omission, made a law that does not allow shops to accept a passport in place of a Garda Age Card. Of course, I'm alive to the possibility (probability) that it could have been intentional to generate revenue from the age cards. (Having checked, though, they only cost €10 and presumably they cost the Govt more in terms of Garda resources, postage etc. than that.) Bizarre law.

That's my objection to it too. It's just poorly worded. If they had said "or other government issued identification providing proof of age", life would be simpler.

What happens to tourists who are only over for two weeks, or less? They won't have time to get an Age Card. In theory, this would mean that an 18 year old tourist couldn't buy alcohol during their visit, as their passport isn't sufficient proof of age.

How long will it take to get my card?
• You should receive your application form within three working days.
• You should then receive your Age Card within 10 working days of handing in your application form to your local Garda Station.

dubstarr

Tesco take passport and full driving licences as well.
As someone who worked there and got no end of abuse over this you have to do it.You get fined,not the shop and you end up with a criminal record.
Its easier to refuse than lose your job.
I know someone who wouldnt serve someone who looked over 18 but had no id.Turns out it was a Garda operation.So you just dont know.

Bepolite

Thoie wrote: »

That's my objection to it too. It's just poorly worded. If they had said "or other government issued identification providing proof of age", life would be simpler.

What happens to tourists who are only over for two weeks, or less? They won't have time to get an Age Card. In theory, this would mean that an 18 year old tourist couldn't buy alcohol during their visit, as their passport isn't sufficient proof of age.

They'd have to go to the pub... So I actually hope the vintner assoc's are really that Machiavellian.

Grolschevik

Nobody asks me for ID any more... [sob]

Little CuChulainn

Karede wrote: »

An Aldi store opened up beside me in the last few months. The first time i shopped there and bought alcohol I was asked for Id. I thought this was funny initially as i'm a married woman in my mid 30's with teenage children and i was doing my weekly shop. I def don't look under 25! That time I just happened to have Id with me and just laughed it off and thought it was a once off.

Nope, next time I was asked for Id again and i didn't have it with me. The guy was making a big deal out of it and I was so embarrassed. It took the lady behind me in the queue to say to the server "are you for real, she is clearly well over age" for him to serve me while mumbling something.

Suffice to say I have never been back to that store. I meant to write a letter of complaint at the time but forgot about it! This thread has just reminded me to do so. I would completely understand it if I was a teenager or early 20's but at my age it is ridiculous, unnecessary and embarrassing.

I wouldn't expect anything from your letter other than "It's company policy".

hullaballoo wrote: »

Where is this idea of being qualified to verify a passport/national ID coming from?

Absolute tosh. If someone hands you a passport and you sell them drink on foot of it, unless there is something obviously wrong with the passport, you have a defence.

That's pretty poor advice to be giving out and likely to get someone in trouble if they follow it.

Thoie

Bepolite wrote: »

They'd have to go to the pub... So I actually hope the vintner assoc's are really that Machiavellian.

Does the Intoxicating Licquor Act not apply to pubs/restaurants/hotels as well? Weird. Maybe the alcohol in pubs gets you less drunk

Michael D Not Higgins

Thoie wrote: »

Does the Intoxicating Licquor Act not apply to pubs/restaurants/hotels as well? Weird. Maybe the alcohol in pubs gets you less drunk

It defines an age limit of 21 to apply ID to someone in a pub, with passport, driver's licence, etc as acceptable forms. Much more flexible than the off sales restrictions.

hullaballoo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That's pretty poor advice to be giving out and likely to get someone in trouble if they follow it.

It's not advice? Who am I advising?

Anyway, you will see that I adjusted my position when Bepolite posted the amended section.

Little CuChulainn

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's not advice? Who am I advising?

Looks like open advice to anyone working in an offo. You should be more careful throwing out statements like that. If someone where to take it as the opinion of a legal professional and act on it, there could be all sorts of issues.

hullaballoo wrote: »

Anyway, you will see that I adjusted my position when Bepolite posted the amended section.

Your post is still there with a blatantly untrue statement about what an off licence professional can legally do. Maybe an edit would be a good idea. Even just to change the language so it doesn't dismiss other peoples correct claims as "absolute tosh".

Not only do employees have to avoid job losses but they also have to be wary of test shoppers both from head office and the Gardaí, who can now legally send in young people to test them. It is extremely important that they abide by the, admittedly ridiculously strict, rules set out for them. The consequences go beyond mere work place disciplinary measures.

MrBobbyZ

hullaballoo wrote: »

Ok, that makes a significant difference all right.

I tried very briefly to find out whether the definition of "age card" means only a Garda Age Card or not but I gave up when I realised I was trying to make sense of the Intoxicating Liquor Acts.

It's poor legislating if they have, by omission, made a law that does not allow shops to accept a passport in place of a Garda Age Card. Of course, I'm alive to the possibility (probability) that it could have been intentional to generate revenue from the age cards. (Having checked, though, they only cost €10 and presumably they cost the Govt more in terms of Garda resources, postage etc. than that.) Bizarre law.

It gets even worse, the act forbids sale of alcohol to anyone intoxicated. That bit makes sense until you realise that its not always very easy to tell if a person is intoxicated or not. And as far as I am aware, only two professions are leaglly qualified to make to make that assessment (Medical Doctor & Gardai).

Del2005

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Looks like open advice to anyone working in an offo. You should be more careful throwing out statements like that. If someone where to take it as the opinion of a legal professional and act on it, there could be all sorts of issues.



Your post is still there with a blatantly untrue statement about what an off licence professional can legally do. Maybe an edit would be a good idea. Even just to change the language so it doesn't dismiss other peoples correct claims as "absolute tosh".

Not only do employees have to avoid job losses but they also have to be wary of test shoppers both from head office and the Gardaí, who can now legally send in young people to test them. It is extremely important that they abide by the, admittedly ridiculously strict, rules set out for them. The consequences go beyond mere work place disciplinary measures.

If someone reading this thread takes only the post into account when they decide who to sell alcohol to they deserve what happens to them, they receive training from the store and a couple of posts later the relevant statue was posted.

Little CuChulainn

Del2005 wrote: »

If someone reading this thread takes only the post into account when they decide who to sell alcohol to they deserve what happens to them, they receive training from the store and a couple of posts later the relevant statue was posted.

I agree completely. But apparently there are plenty of people out there who will take that advice and act on it, which is why I presume it is against the charter.

JG009

I was shopping in Lidl or Aldi some time back with a mate whos 28 and looks a bit older. I had my shopping on the conveyor belt and his drink was behind me, yer man asked me for ID because I was with him and I said Im sorry but Im not buying any drink and that fellas drink is nothing to do with me, Im just here to do my shopping.

They do it all the time though. Everyone you are talking to needs ID. Walk into another LIDL separate and how the feck are they gonna know you are together. Annoying!

Cookie_Monster

Bepolite wrote: »

I don't quite understand what was unclear about Conorh91's post. It was put clearly and succinctly. The line is where common sense puts it and within the judgement of the person manning the tills in the instant scenario.

What's unclear is that the decision is being left to someone who is not qualified to make such a judgement and is not aware of all the facts in the background.

Do you not see at as clearly ridiculous that a parent and teenage child will be served without issue but two 25-30 plus adults won't be unless both have ID, not just the purchaser.

Bepolite

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What's unclear is that the decision is being left to someone who is not qualified to make such a judgement and is not aware of all the facts in the background.

Do you not see at as clearly ridiculous that a parent and teenage child will be served without issue but two 25-30 plus adults won't be unless both have ID, not just the purchaser.

The cashier at the till is perfectly able to make a common sense judgement. If they think one or more of the persons concerned are underage, that the person purchasing my pass on the drink then they are perfectly entitled to refuse sale. They will always err on the side of caution, and rightly so. Most places have an ID 25 policy so you need to look over 25.

If a parents wants to hand their teenage child a drink in the privacy of their own home, my parents always did, that's their business.

If someone is there at the till with the DTs they should probably see a doctor rather than getting so angry over being turned down for booze because they look a lit too young.

A first world problem I wish I still suffered from.

Little CuChulainn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What's unclear is that the decision is being left to someone who is not qualified to make such a judgement and is not aware of all the facts in the background.

Do you not see at as clearly ridiculous that a parent and teenage child will be served without issue but two 25-30 plus adults won't be unless both have ID, not just the purchaser.

There are plenty of stories of parents being refused when with their teenagers too. They really do err on the far side of caution.

Pro Hoc Vice

Bepolite wrote: »

It's made even more bizarre by the fact that the amendment only covers off-licences. Pubs are still allowed the reasonable grounds standard.

Incorrect, for a very clear statment of the law look at Waxy O'Connors. A pub can have a Defence in a charge for having a minor on the premises but not if served.

http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/491cd9c28228ffbe802576bf004b7705?OpenDocument