Would a toll affect your decision to do a German Car Holiday?

keithclancy

So the Germans have announced they plan to impose a toll on non German plated cars.

http://www.thelocal.de/20140707/tolls-to-come-to-all-german-roads

German car owners would receive the vignette in the mail and its price would be deducted from their vehicle taxes, meaning they should not be paying more than before.

But foreign drivers would have to buy a vignette from 2016, costing a maximum of €100 a year or €20 for two months. A short-term option of €10 for ten days is also expected to be introduced. They could be bought online or in petrol stations.

Personally I think it would effectively kill off all the cross border shopping trips.

For myself I would be forced to pay it as I drive a car on a Dutch registration and due to vehicle registration tax (BPM) do not have the option of driving a German plated car.

Also the Public transport option is 3 hours vs 1 hr 15 minutes in the car, so really I'd almost be spending as much time on Public Transport than in work

It would bring my annual motor tax from 1464 per year to 1564, when a German coworker is paying 326 / year for the same Car :rolleyes:

On top of that if I rent or borrow a mates car, I'd have to pay again just to go into Germany, or if I buy a new car I'd have to pay twice for the year.

Anyways, all that aside, would a Toll influence your decision on doing a driving trip in Germany ?

djimi

Assuming you are talking about a holiday (which is going to be the case for the majority on here) then €20 is hardly the end of the world and I doubt it would put many/any off driving in Germany. Its different in your situation obviously.

MuppetCheck

Not particularly, but if other countries also brought it in (and you can be sure they will if this works) then it would add a significant cost to a trip like that from Ireland.

death1234567

Makes sense to get tax from cars that are using German Roads but are not paying the Germans any tax.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Could you not just rent a car in Germany and thus avoid this toll anyway?

Sobanek

And what if you don't pay?

Isn't that against the movement of free goods rule?

keithclancy

djimi wrote: »

Assuming you are talking about a holiday (which is going to be the case for the majority on here) then €20 is hardly the end of the world and I doubt it would put many/any off driving in Germany. Its different in your situation obviously.

Well for the UK Colleagues here in work they recon they would just be put off because of 2 additional stickers alone, one for the Environmental Zone sticker and another for the Vignette.

Or doing a trip in an Irish Campervan/Car for example, going across France and into Germany down to Austria and Switzerland you would end up with a total of 7 Items stuck to your window

Tax
Insurance
NCT
Environmental Sticker if you want to stop in a City (Needs to be pre-purchased from TUV)
German Vignette for all roads, even if you do not use the Autobahn
Swiss Vignette
Austrian Vignette

And that would be after paying all the French Tolls already just to get to Germany from Cherbourg assuming your doing the Rosslare route

djimi

Sobanek wrote: »

And what if you don't pay?

Isn't that against the movement of free goods rule?

Probably no more so than the congestion charge in London is. Plus youre not restricting anyone from moving; youre just charging them for the privilage!

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Sobanek wrote: »

And what if you don't pay?

Isn't that against the movement of free goods rule?

Not to mention, discriminatory against non germans!

keithclancy

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Could you not just rent a car in Germany and thus avoid this toll anyway?

No, Dutch residents are prohibited from Driving owned, borrowed, leased or rented foreign cars due to Vehicle Registration Tax.

There is a temporary exemption for 1 license plate per year, but this is not really suitable for Rentals.

Sobanek

djimi wrote: »

Probably no more so than the congestion charge in London is. Plus youre not restricting anyone from moving; youre just charging them for the privilage!

Congestion charge applies to all UK and Non-UK registered cars. This talks about charging cars that aren't on German plates

Cleveland Hot Pocket

djimi wrote: »

Probably no more so than the congestion charge in London is. Plus youre not restricting anyone from moving; youre just charging them for the privilage!

But that charges everyone, this is just for non germans!

djimi

keithclancy wrote: »

Well for the UK Colleagues here in work they recon they would just be put off because of 2 additional stickers alone, one for the Environmental Zone sticker and another for the Vignette.

Or doing a trip in an Irish Campervan/Car for example, going across France and into Germany down to Austria and Switzerland you would end up with a total of 7 Items stuck to your window

Tax
Insurance
NCT
Environmental Sticker if you want to stop in a City (Needs to be pre-purchased from TUV)
German Vignette for all roads, even if you do not use the Autobahn
Swiss Vignette
Austrian Vignette

And that would be after paying all the French Tolls already just to get to Germany from Cherbourg assuming your doing the Rosslare route

Its an annoyance for sure, but again its not the end of the world, and the stickers alone certainly would not put me off making a trip that I otherwise want to take. Even the cost isnt massively prohibitive; even if you ended up going through five countries that have this system then its €100 to the cost of your journey.

The French road tolls would put me off more; the last time I was in France I remember them being utterly ridiculous.

djimi

Sobanek wrote: »

Congestion charge applies to all UK and Non-UK registered cars. This talks about charging cars that aren't on German plates

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

But that charges everyone, this is just for non germans!

I know its not directly comparible but I was just trying to think of a similar enough example in terms of having to pay to enter an area and how that could be considered to be restriction of movement. I dont think either are tbh.

djimi

keithclancy wrote: »

No, Dutch residents are prohibited from Driving owned, borrowed, leased or rented foreign cars due to Vehicle Registration Tax.

There is a temporary exemption for 1 license plate per year, but this is not really suitable for Rentals.

So under Dutch (or German?) law you are not legally allowed to rent a car when abroad?

keithclancy

djimi wrote: »

So under Dutch (or German?) law you are not legally allowed to rent a car when abroad?

I can rent a car abroad, e.g. I could drive 45 minutes away to Belgium, rent a car and drive around Belgium, but as soon as I drive back into the Netherlands Customs can seize the car from you for non payment of VRT (BPM)

But if I wanted to go home I'd have to drive to the closest station at the Belgian border and get the bus home

Same rule as Ireland really, you cannot rent a car in the North and drive it in the Republic.

listermint

Do they tax fuel there for this purpose ?

djimi

keithclancy wrote: »

I can rent a car abroad, e.g. I could drive 45 minutes away to Belgium, rent a car and drive around Belgium, but as soon as I drive back into the Netherlands Customs can seize the car from you for non payment of VRT (BPM)

But if I wanted to go home I'd have to drive to the closest station at the Belgian border and get the bus home

Same rule as Ireland really, you cannot rent a car in the North and drive it in the Republic.

Ah okay, sorry I thought you meant that you couldnt rent a car in Germany full stop!

munchkin_utd

ach, it'll be the same as border areas of Germany and Austria is currently.
You'd possibly make at least 10 trips across the border a year so you just buy the yearly sticker for 100 odd euro and you have it.
And just like the Germany->Austria Border- if youre saving €5+ per fill of petrol, then your sticker will pay for itsself over the year soon enough.

I think the plans are bonkers they way they are planning it though.
It should have been a proper motorway sticker that everyone pays for, maybe reducing the car tax slightly, but not bending over backwards to ensure that the german motorists pay the same at the end of it to the cent as they do now.

Do they tax fuel there for this purpose ?

yup, theres 10s of billions a year taken in tax and ECO-tax and its not for the roads or environment that the cash ends up used for!

dgt

Nah not really. Yes I hope to drive through Germany someday

listermint

munchkin_utd wrote: »

ach, it'll be the same as border areas of Germany and Austria is currently.
You'd possibly make at least 10 trips across the border a year so you just buy the yearly sticker for 100 odd euro and you have it.
And just like the Germany->Austria Border- if youre saving €5+ per fill of petrol, then your sticker will pay for itsself over the year soon enough.

I think the plans are bonkers they way they are planning it though.
It should have been a proper motorway sticker that everyone pays for, maybe reducing the car tax slightly, but not bending over backwards to ensure that the german motorists pay the same at the end of it to the cent as they do now.


yup, theres 10s of billions a year taken in tax and ECO-tax and its not for the roads or environment that the cash ends up used for!

So i dont understand, if they are taking this cash from 'foreigners' via fuel tax.

What is the point ?

Is the whole thing for 'optics' because that is what it looks like.

jimgoose

keithclancy wrote: »

I can rent a car abroad, e.g. I could drive 45 minutes away to Belgium, rent a car and drive around Belgium, but as soon as I drive back into the Netherlands Customs can seize the car from you for non payment of VRT (BPM)

But if I wanted to go home I'd have to drive to the closest station at the Belgian border and get the bus home

That's a proper ridiculous pain-in-the-arse, isn't it?? :eek:

keithclancy wrote: »

Same rule as Ireland really, you cannot rent a car in the North and drive it in the Republic.

According to Budget at least you can, for a small additional fee:

http://www.budget.ie/terms/northern-ireland/#Cross Border Driving

bmm

So much for all EU citizens being treated equally!

We buy german cars so surely a percentage of this goes to build german roads!

It will cost the germans more to collect the charges than the charges themselves.! Ridiculous!

visual

bmm wrote: »

So much for all EU citizens being treated equally!

We buy german cars so surely a percentage of this goes to build german roads!

It will cost the germans more to collect the charges than the charges themselves.! Ridiculous!

The EU is no longer fit for purpose with only the biggest members benefiting at the expense of smaller countries and no one gives two hoots about the citizens.

I avoid toll roads where possible.

BMJD

rabble rabble already paid the german bondholders rabble rabble worse than hitler

munchkin_utd

visual wrote: »

The EU is no longer fit for purpose with only the biggest members benefiting at the expense of smaller countries and no one gives two hoots about the citizens.

I avoid toll roads where possible.

em, this here is an instance of all the little countries from Czech to Austria to Switzerland and beyond tolling their roads for the past years and the largest country in Europe deciding to follow the lead of the little countries.

and its TOTALLY nothing to do with the Eu (rabble rabble rabble.........)

No Pants

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Not to mention, discriminatory against non germans!

My reading of the OP's post is that everyone pays, Germans and non-Germans alike. However, the Germans then get a rebate on their version of motor tax. Not sure if that's discriminatory.

alias no.9

munchkin_utd wrote: »

em, this here is an instance of all the little countries from Czech to Austria to Switzerland and beyond tolling their roads for the past years and the largest country in Europe deciding to follow the lead of the little countries.

and its TOTALLY nothing to do with the Eu (rabble rabble rabble.........)

There are always untolled alternatives

toyotaavensis

I recently drove to budapest and back and paid for vignettes in Austria and Hungary.
An extra tenner in Germany wouldnt have caused me to drive around Germany or avoud the trip. I think we should have it here. If locals are paying their tax for the upkeey of roads those using it while passing though should do so also.

visual

munchkin_utd wrote: »

em, this here is an instance of all the little countries from Czech to Austria to Switzerland and beyond tolling their roads for the past years and the largest country in Europe deciding to follow the lead of the little countries.

and its TOTALLY nothing to do with the Eu (rabble rabble rabble.........)

the princable of EU was to promote harmony fair trading and unrestricted movement of goods and people within EU
tolling everyone is one thing, tolling only visitors to germany is building walls

And it has everything to do with EU

NCAP emissions common standards
drivers licence etc etc

what rock you be stuck under the last few decades.

toyotaavensis

Careful now
talking about the germans building walls could cause upset.

Chris_Heilong

Very rude of the Germans, you can not discriminate and must follow equality laws. If we were allowed to discriminate then there would be one price for the Irish another for foreigners which is basically what the Germans are trying to do. Charge all or nobody.

Tigger

jimgoose wrote: »

That's a proper ridiculous pain-in-the-arse, isn't it?? :eek:



According to Budget at least you can, for a small additional fee:

http://www.budget.ie/terms/northern-ireland/#Cross Border Driving

thats a charge to drive a ni plate rental in the republic
however one can't drive a ni plate car in the republic if one is a roi resident

Marcusm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Very rude of the Germans, you can not discriminate and must follow equality laws. If we were allowed to discriminate then there would be one price for the Irish another for foreigners which is basically what the Germans are trying to do. Charge all or nobody.

I assume, as with the proposed vignette for foreign HGV drivers in the UK, that it will be collected from German drivers and netted against the annual motor tax or equivalent. It's very easy for them to ensure that it is EU compliant.

HandsomeDan

Goes againt the spirit of the EU. Germans dont face extra charges when holidaying here.

But then who goes on holiday in fcking kruat land

munchkin_utd

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Goes againt the spirit of the EU. Germans dont face extra charges when holidaying here.

But then who goes on holiday in fcking kruat land

you could also say the irish government is anti eu then for giving local firms rebates on fuel but not visiting trucks (not sure if this is signed into law yet).

The planned system of rebates for local drivers is stupidly overcomplicated, but it isnt unfair to ask foreign drivers to pay something to the roads, seeing as many (Netherlands aside) buy little or no fuel in germany so really are getting away without making a contribution.

whether this new toll system even happens is another question as the motor tax collection is in complete dissarray at the moment (not enough that they'd forget my motor tax bill which came this week, but 121euro for a 1.8 isnt the worst!).
The motor tax used to be taken in by the local councils and now is being done centrally, and its just not working. So for them to layer another even more complictated task on the system just isnt going to happen any time soon. Its estimated that over a billion euro will be uncollected at the end of the year.
Plus, the police have refused to police this as it isnt a security or safety matter.

visual

Probably never happen but when we joined EU the goal and aspiration was harmonious trade of goods and services. Taxes aligned throughout all EU contries and free movement of travel.

We got a lot of grants towards our road infrastructure apart from greedy tolls dropped in the middle to enrich vested interests it worked well.

But we kept vehicle VRT dispite it being against the spirit of EU and our motor tax out of alignment with most of Europe.
So I can see the logic behind Germany wanting to tax visitors but it is wrong to hold up bad examples and practices as way forward.

Unless of course your not in favour of EU and only concerned with self interest.

djimi

Im actually surprised by how close the poll is. Would a €20 vignette really put people off driving in a country?

tossy

djimi wrote: »

Im actually surprised by how close the poll is. Would a €20 vignette really put people off driving in a country?

I'd say most of the people who voted are the type who drive to the red cow and get 'de lewis' into 'de city' ... shure you couldnt be driving in Dublin with its big roads and junkies! I'd say driving in a foreign country is a akin to walking on the moon to them But sure don't we love a poll!

RobAMerc

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Charge all or nobody.

That's what they are doing - The local pay for it with their road tax. Foreigners pay for it with their Vignette - that would be everyone ( that uses the road anyway )

jester77

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Goes againt the spirit of the EU. Germans dont face extra charges when holidaying here.

But then who goes on holiday in fcking kruat land

Yes they do, there are tolls on some of the Irish motorways.

I can't see this passing, it's just the Bavarians around the Austrian/Swiss border that are pushing this as they say it is not fair that they have to pay when they cross the border while those that cross into Germany don't pay. Plus the Greens are against it based on discriminatory grounds as are some others.

keithclancy

djimi wrote: »

Im actually surprised by how close the poll is. Would a €20 vignette really put people off driving in a country?

Depends, say you went on a Holiday in the Belgian Ardenne.

Would you take a day trip to see some stuff over the border if you had to pay 10 euros just to drive on any road, even Non-Autobahn ?

Or would you visit Luxembourg where they charge you nothing, Cigarettes are 4 quid a box and Diesel is around 1.19 a liter

I think its not so much the cost, its that if Germany starts it then other countries will do the same, which I think would put people off travelling across borders.

There's a Shopping Outlet in Roermond (NL) for example, completely packed with Germans every weekend. If the Dutch brought in the same Tax I suspect the German headcount would drastically reduce.

jester77 wrote: »

Yes they do, there are tolls on some of the Irish motorways.

I can't see this passing, it's just the Bavarians around the Austrian/Swiss border that are pushing this as they say it is not fair that they have to pay when they cross the border while those that cross into Germany don't pay. Plus the Greens are against it based on discriminatory grounds as are some others.

Yes, but you have the option not to use the motorway, in Germany this would not be the case.

djimi

If I really wanted to see Germany then a tenner wouldnt even cost me a thought. Im going to pay over a fiver tomorrow night just to pick my parents up from the airport.

If it becomes more widespread then so be it, but people will just build the cost into their holidays. Its too insignificant an amount of money for it to be restricting your movement. Different if youre resident in a bordering area of course, but thats not relevant to Irish people.

keithclancy

djimi wrote: »

If I really wanted to see Germany then a tenner wouldnt even cost me a thought. Im going to pay over a fiver tomorrow night just to pick my parents up from the airport.

If it becomes more widespread then so be it, but people will just build the cost into their holidays. Its too insignificant an amount of money for it to be restricting your movement. Different if youre resident in a bordering area of course, but thats not relevant to Irish people.

So say you didn't want to see Germany but just wanted to drive to a local brewery that happened to be in Germany to pickup a special beer and drive back again ..

You would really pay 10 euros on top to do that ?

The whole point is travel without hindrance, that's why they got rid of the border controls in the first place.

djimi

keithclancy wrote: »

So say you didn't want to see Germany but just wanted to drive to a local brewery that happened to be in Germany to pickup a special beer and drive back again ..

You would really pay 10 euros on top to do that ?

The whole point is travel without hindrance, that's why they got rid of the border controls in the first place.

Its just another toll then really. I dont want to pay a fiver to go to the airport tomorrow but Im going to because I dont really have a choice (well, I do, but the roundabout journey would cost me the same on petrol!).

Im not saying that I like it, but if Im on holidays especially then I am not going to let a €10/€20 toll stop me from doing something.

visual

RobAMerc wrote: »

That's what they are doing - The local pay for it with their road tax. Foreigners pay for it with their Vignette - that would be everyone ( that uses the road anyway )

Everyone pays motor tax in their own country so its targeting other EU citizens who aren't German.

.

munchkin_utd

keithclancy wrote: »

So say you didn't want to see Germany but just wanted to drive to a local brewery that happened to be in Germany to pickup a special beer and drive back again ..

You would really pay 10 euros on top to do that ?

The whole point is travel without hindrance, that's why they got rid of the border controls in the first place.

but currently if you want to drive to the likes of Salzburg or Kufstein over the Austrian border the only practical way is to go by Motorway which will cost you a tenner for a 10day sticker
To go 1 or 2 junctions.
OR if you want to drive from Germany to Switzerland near lake constance, theres 10km of the route goes through Austria - so again you must buy a 10 day Vignette to travel the few km.
Before having to buy a year vignette to use the motorways in Switzerland when you get that far!

HandsomeDan

jester77 wrote: »

Yes they do, there are tolls on some of the Irish motorways.

I said extra charges, as in above and beyond what the locals pay

keithclancy

munchkin_utd wrote: »

but currently if you want to drive to the likes of Salzburg or Kufstein over the Austrian border the only practical way is to go by Motorway which will cost you a tenner for a 10day sticker
To go 1 or 2 junctions.
OR if you want to drive from Germany to Switzerland near lake constance, theres 10km of the route goes through Austria - so again you must buy a 10 day Vignette to travel the few km.
Before having to buy a year vignette to use the motorways in Switzerland when you get that far!

This toll is to use all roads in Germany.

I wouldn't use the German Motorway to go from Eindhoven to Weeze for example
Or from Houffalize
Or from Spa
Or from a bunch of other places.

Your assuming that everywhere there is a motorway or that its always the fastest option, in much of the Netherlands, Belgium and France this is not the case.

Most people in NRW are against it there are many many businesses that sit on the border and profit from Dutch and Belgian customers and also people holidaying in places in Belgium (e.g. the Ardenne)

Its the south that want it simply because they feel its unfair that they have to pay the vignette in Austria and Switzerland and the Swiss and Austrians don't have to pay it in Germany

DubDani

Aren't the dutch also just in the final stages of their new Road Tax system, which will mean that Foreigners have to pay as well? I believe it will monitor all roads by Satellite and charge you based on the Kilometers driven and the charge per KM will be calculated on how busy the road is at that time.

keithclancy

DubDani wrote: »

Aren't the dutch also just in the final stages of their new Road Tax system, which will mean that Foreigners have to pay as well? I believe it will monitor all roads by Satellite and charge you based on the Kilometers driven and the charge per KM will be calculated on how busy the road is at that time.

No, that idea was thrown out ages ago as being crazy.