Would you say something?

Raminahobbin

Twice now I've seen a man in my town walking his dog with a prong collar.

The dog is a gorgeous big pure white fella, I'd hazard a guess at a Dogo Argentino but it could be an American Bulldog- I'm not great at identifying some of the bigger bull breeds.

There do not appear to be any puncture wounds around the dogs neck that I can see, but I still find it quite shocking and upsetting to see the prong collar. I've never actually seen anyone using one in the flesh.

I realise that it's none of my business, and since the dog seems to be in good condition otherwise, I'm probably just going to keep my nose out of it, but I was just wondering if anyone here would say anything to the man? I'm toying with the idea of stopping him if I see him again, asking to pet the dog (with lots of compliments, because he really is a stunning looking fella), and striking up a conversation. If the man SEEMS receptive, I might ask him about the collar and why he felt he needed it. Or would you all just recommend I try to ignore it?

VonVix

It's really tempting to say something, isn't it? I've been in similar situations before but I've always said nothing about it.

If you do feel the need to find out more information further as to why he uses it I would get talking to him about his dog first, generally speaking (what breed is it, what's it like, etc.) then maybe the second time you see him and talk to him, bring it up however way you feel is most polite. He may have the best of intentions for all you know, he may just have gotten some misguided information. And it can feel quite threatening if someone approaches you about the equipment you're using straight off the bat, if you feel like you're doing no harm.

zoe 3619

Had to google prong collar.think you have the right idea.chat to the owner,admire the dog.be friendly ,smile,and at some point say ' is that a prong collar-never seen one of them before' if he's receptive,ask him why it's used etc.keep it general,be non-confrontational.if they're legal( and I didn't see anything to suggest otherwise) not much you can do,but if you have a chat and find him to be a reasonable,caring owner,it would set your mind at rest.

tk123

Is the owner a non-national by any chance - that's the only people I've seen using them on dogs. I don't think they're doing it to be cruel tbh - just that it's accepted where they're from but frowned upon here? I saw somebody (polish) with one on a beagle in our park ages ago. Her dog was getting strangled/stabbed as it went to greet Bailey and I was shocked and too speechless to say anything - she knew well by my reaction what I thought though and was embarrassed herself. I had decided I would say something to her but didn't see her again. I've only said something once - saw a guy yanking the neck off a dog for pulling. When I told him there was harnesses etc he could try he was delighted to hear about them and thanked me.

Raminahobbin

I'm not sure if he's non-national, I have an inkling he might be Eastern European but it's hard to tell. He doesn't look particularly un-approachable, seems like a nice enough man on first impressions, so maybe you're all right and he just doesn't know any better.

I certainly don't want to be confrontational about it and would hate to come across as preachy, especially because the dog is in good condition and doesn't seem to pull enough for there to be any actual damage from the collar. I had my own dog with me this evening, which his dog seemed very interested in but didn't pull towards (obviously).

Strange thing though, as soon as the dog saw mine, he started slobbering REALLY heavily, instantly. I've never seen anything like it. Must be some sort of alternative reaction? I don't know.

I have a pretty decent idea of the route the man takes now and where he might live, so I'll just head that way to the shops and when I'm on walks and if I bump into him (without my own dog) I'll try have a bit of friendly banter with him and take it from there.

VonVix

Raminahobbin wrote: »

Strange thing though, as soon as the dog saw mine, he started slobbering REALLY heavily, instantly. I've never seen anything like it. Must be some sort of alternative reaction? I don't know.

This is what used to happen when I took one of my dogs to the vet, he has since gotten a lot better and only a bit drooly towards the end of the visit. But he gets incredibly anxious having people he does not know touch him without his consent.

<total assumption> Could be a sign of anxiety about being in the presence of your dog and it could be part of the reason why he has a prong collar in the first place. He may have gotten corrected for pulling when trying to get near a dog or showing a reaction towards a dog. </total assumption> ...but yeah, I don't know, just the first thing that came to mind.

fatmammycat

Raminahobbin wrote: »

Twice now I've seen a man in my town walking his dog with a prong collar.

The dog is a gorgeous big pure white fella, I'd hazard a guess at a Dogo Argentino but it could be an American Bulldog- I'm not great at identifying some of the bigger bull breeds.

There do not appear to be any puncture wounds around the dogs neck that I can see, but I still find it quite shocking and upsetting to see the prong collar. I've never actually seen anyone using one in the flesh.

I realise that it's none of my business, and since the dog seems to be in good condition otherwise, I'm probably just going to keep my nose out of it, but I was just wondering if anyone here would say anything to the man? I'm toying with the idea of stopping him if I see him again, asking to pet the dog (with lots of compliments, because he really is a stunning looking fella), and striking up a conversation. If the man SEEMS receptive, I might ask him about the collar and why he felt he needed it. Or would you all just recommend I try to ignore it?

Mind your own business. Prong collars are no more 'cruel' than normal buckle collars when used correctly. Frankly I'd rather owners of large dogs were in control of their dogs than letting their dogs half strangle themselves barking and lunging like loo-loas on flat collars. A prong collar is an excellent training device for strong/dog/human aggressive dogs. I've never had to use one with my own dog, but I don't assume a prong or pinch collar is not an excellent tool for some owners, and the idea that you might approach an owner and query his training technique without knowing the first thing about his dog is laughable.

Whispered

fatmammycat wrote: »

Mind your own business. Prong collars are no more 'cruel' than normal buckle collars when used correctly.

They work on the basis of causing pain. No matter what spin users try to put on it, that's a fact. If they don't work by causing discomfort or pain, how do you think they work? I wouldn't be a huge fan of walking a dog on a collar either but to say they're the same as prongs is taking it a bit far.

OP I don't think I'd say anything unless you are having a conversation with the man. People who use these types of "training aids" tend to have all manner of justifications and reasons they are not a bad thing. If he's receptive maybe you could suggest something less cruel but I wouldn't lead with it.

borderlinemeath

fatmammycat wrote: »

Mind your own business. Prong collars are no more 'cruel' than normal buckle collars when used correctly.

I really, really hate that line that's always trotted out when using punishing equipment like prong collars or electric fence collars that they're not cruel when used "correctly". It's such a cop out answer for using an unnecessarily painful piece of equipment.

DBB

fatmammycat wrote: »

Mind your own business. Prong collars are no more 'cruel' than normal buckle collars when used correctly. Frankly I'd rather owners of large dogs were in control of their dogs than letting their dogs half strangle themselves barking and lunging like loo-loas on flat collars. A prong collar is an excellent training device for strong/dog/human aggressive dogs. I've never had to use one with my own dog, but I don't assume a prong or pinch collar is not an excellent tool for some owners, and the idea that you might approach an owner and query his training technique without knowing the first thing about his dog is laughable.

Fatmammycat, I'm pretty shocked with a couple of posts you've made in recent months, it's like somebody has re-wired your train of thought on dog training, because there was a time your posts made perfect sense in terms of ethical and dog-friendly dog training.
Very disappointing indeed.

Whispered

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I really, really hate that line that's always trotted out when using punishing equipment like prong collars or electric fence collars that they're not cruel when used "correctly". It's such a cop out answer for using an unnecessarily painful piece of equipment.

I think that's the biggest point. We all cause our pets discomfort at times, as we do our kids and ourselves. Cleaning cuts, having anal glands cleaned (obv I mean for dogs here not kids or ourselves :pac:), vaccinations and some treatments can be unpleasant but necessary. There is no reason, ever to use a choke or prong collar. There is nothing that they can "fix" that couldn't be worked on using kinder methods (and methods which don't have such a big fallout).

The drooling is probably one such fallout - my bigger fella drools when stressed or worried. I'd wonder if the dog is on a prong due to pulling out to get to people or other dogs, has been hurt by the collar and now associates the approach of a new person or dog with the pain on his neck.

Raminahobbin

VonVix wrote: »

This is what used to happen when I took one of my dogs to the vet, he has since gotten a lot better and only a bit drooly towards the end of the visit. But he gets incredibly anxious having people he does not know touch him without his consent.

<total assumption> Could be a sign of anxiety about being in the presence of your dog and it could be part of the reason why he has a prong collar in the first place. He may have gotten corrected for pulling when trying to get near a dog or showing a reaction towards a dog. </total assumption> ...but yeah, I don't know, just the first thing that came to mind.

That could be it alright, I don't know- I've never had a drooler :P

Poor dog, I assume if this is the case then the potential for pain if they react to another dog would only compound the problem.

VonVix

Raminahobbin wrote: »

That could be it alright, I don't know- I've never had a drooler :P

Poor dog, I assume if this is the case then the potential for pain if they react to another dog would only compound the problem.

The table would be soaked by my boy drooling at the sight of the vet coming near him, as if he was expecting the worst before it happened. Over the last few vet visits I have been holding him close to me and speaking softly to him, which I never did when he was having his first drooly episodes. He has improved so much, that the last time there was only 3 (I counted!) droplets on the table.

Just from my experience I would expect there to be an element of anxiety coming from his dog, as if he's expecting something bad to happen at the sight of the trigger. aka, your dog.

thebullkf

without knowing the breed, background or experience of either dog or owner this is all useless speculation.

Prongs work on certain dogs especially with experienced users/owners.

I prefer reward instead of correction myself, but they can be useful, particularly against extremely strong or unpredictable dogs.

The drooling sounds like conditioning, is it an ex fight dog ? eg a rescue? Was dog abused and correction is needed initially?

Pavlovs dog sprang to mind when you mentioned drooling:(

boomerang

I don't even know where people get them. I've never seen them in pet shops here, thankfully.

DBB

thebullkf wrote: »

Prongs work on certain dogs especially with experienced users/owners.

I prefer reward instead of correction myself, but they can be useful, particularly against extremely strong or unpredictable dogs.

There is a common misinformation that gear like prong collars, choke chains, electric collars etc etc don't work, and I'm forever trying to fight that myth here.
These pieces of gear do, in many cases, work. This should not be disputed.
In cases where they don't work, it's because the dog has shut down and is learning nothing at all.
The question, in this day and age, is not "does it work?", but "does it do harm?"
The answer in the case of choke chains, prong collars, electric collars etc is that yes, they do harm, even in experienced hands. They cannot work unless they cause an aversive experience for the dog.
An oft-quoted Swedish study found that 91% of dogs that pull on the lead, or who experienced leash corrections, died with damage to their neck or throat area. Dogs who wear choke chains or prong collars were over-represented in this appalling figure.
In this day and age, there is no excuse for using aversive gear on dogs, when very effective non-painful gear is available.

To say that prong collars and the like can be extremely effective against "extremely strong or unpredictable dogs" is not untrue, but I've been working with strong, unpredictable dogs for years and years, as have many of my peers and colleagues.... yet we always seem to manage perfectly well without having to resort to the aversive gear... why is that? Where does that leave the supporters of prong collars and choke chains?
It can only lead a person to one conclusion, which is that supporters of such gear either don't really "get it" in terms of using learning theory to address behavioural problems.
Either that, or they're okay with causing their dog unnecessary discomfort.

To address the OP, why not talk to him about it? He'll either disagree with you, or he'll explore alternatives... the latter more likely to happen if you keep it light and non-confrontational. Some less-than-reputable dog trainers in Ireland sell prong collars to their clients, but for the most part, most users of them seem to be eastern european, and it's simply a cultural thing with them, in the same way that choke chains were over-represented in Ireland in the 70s and 80s. As a general rule, they looooove their dogs, and many of them who I have suggested more ethical alternatives to have been delighted to learn that such effective alternatives exist!

tk123

OP you might check with Pet Stop tomorrow - at one stage they were offering a discount off collars/harnesses if you 'traded in' stuff like prong collars etc - that was the angle I was going to use on the girl I saw that day and suggest a halti harness.

For the record I have a choke/chain collar for Lucy - I needed a slip/loose collar to hold her ID when she had hotspots on her neck and it was all I could find on a BH weekend - I felt ashamed for buying it even though I'd no intention of ever attaching a lead to it!!! (She was bursting out of her harness at the time so leaving it on her in the house wasn't really an option).

fatmammycat

DBB wrote: »

Fatmammycat, I'm pretty shocked with a couple of posts you've made in recent months, it's like somebody has re-wired your train of thought on dog training, because there was a time your posts made perfect sense in terms of ethical and dog-friendly dog training.
Very disappointing indeed.

I'm not a chid DBB, there's there no need for disappointment because one person's view differs from yours. The more I read, the more trainers I talk to, the more dog owners in general I talk to the less I believe in one form or training. I think prongs and e-collars have a place in training, I think a lot of really really good dog trainers who care a great deal for their dogs and who use these tools have excellently trained happy dogs. Yes a prong causes discomfort, of course that's how it works. Moment of discomfort, dog stops puling, no discomfort, light bulb moment in dog's brain, hey, if I don't pull this is comfortable. This causes less damage to dogs than constantly heaving and choking against a buckle collar.
I'm not trying to change anybody's mind- people need to learn and read for themselves with an open mind ( I used to be totally against prong collars until I learned a lot more about them, I use a harness on my dog, but he's not a puller or dog aggressive) - and I'm all for positive training, in fact I'm a big believer in it. What I also believe is that a dog should understand consequences to certain behaviours. I'm not talking about hitting or hurting a dog either, but yes, let a dog feel a little discomfort if he's doing something he shouldn't be doing, and then let that discomfort cease the MOMENT the dog stops doing what he shouldn't be doing. Give and take. Dogs are not idiots, they understand boundaries and can operate perfectly happily within them once they know what that boundary is. Regarding damage by prongs, I believe a dog is less likely to damage himself or hurt himself when trained properly with a prong collar, and this is beginning to become a reality for many people, all of who also love their dogs.
http://www.labadoption.org/info/file?file=17128.pdf

aaakev

Id be of the same opinion on e collars and prong collars. I trained my pointer very successfully with a remote control e collar to take commands at a distance when he was off lead. It only took a few shocks to correct him then the beep before the shock was all that was needed.

I tried it on myself before the dog and it wasn't bad, like an electric fence

ShaShaBear

fatmammycat wrote: »

I believe a dog is less likely to damage himself or hurt himself when trained properly with a prong collar
http://www.labadoption.org/info/file?file=17128.pdf

And even less likely if trained correctly without one

Shadow is very strong, extremely dog aggressive and lorry/truck reactive when walking. He pulls a lot too. I would never, EVER dream of using a prong collar or choke chain to try and "correct" this behaviour. He does it because he is afraid. What would the sense be in giving him a damned good reason to be afraid of it?
He's not supposed to try and strangle himself with TV cables from climbing under the stand when he hears fireworks, so should I give him a light smack every time he does it so the discomfort corrects it?
(Side note, good luck with that - do you like all your fingers? :pac: )

I find it utterly preposterous and next to impossible to believe that "many" people are coming to the conclusion that dog experts have been talking out their holes with positive training methods all this time and are resorting to cruelty, punishment and torture to attempt to train their pets again. Keeping in mind that a LARGE percentage of dog owners do NOT know how to use these devices correctly (if there is even such a thing), and any behaviourist worth their salt won't even entertain showing someone how to use them - makes it pretty moot to say they work if used correctly.

fatmammycat

ShaShaBear wrote: »

And even less likely if trained correctly without one

Shadow is very strong, extremely dog aggressive and lorry/truck reactive when walking. He pulls a lot too. I would never, EVER dream of using a prong collar or choke chain to try and "correct" this behaviour. He does it because he is afraid. What would the sense be in giving him a damned good reason to be afraid of it?
He's not supposed to try and strangle himself with TV cables from climbing under the stand when he hears fireworks, so should I give him a light smack every time he does it so the discomfort corrects it?
(Side note, good luck with that - do you like all your fingers? :pac: )

I find it utterly preposterous and next to impossible to believe that "many" people are coming to the conclusion that dog experts have been talking out their holes with positive training methods all this time and are resorting to cruelty, punishment and torture to attempt to train their pets again. Keeping in mind that a LARGE percentage of dog owners do NOT know how to use these devices correctly (if there is even such a thing), and any behaviourist worth their salt won't even entertain showing someone how to use them - makes it pretty moot to say they work if used correctly.

I'm not trying to change your mind SSB, do what you want with your own dog, what ever works for you. Also, no one is suggesting dog owners don't use positive training, just that positive training is not the be all and end all of ALL training.

muddypaws

fatmammycat wrote: »

I'm not trying to change your mind SSB, do what you want with your own dog, what ever works for you. Also, no one is suggesting dog owners don't use positive training, just that positive training is not the be all and end all of ALL training.

You see that's the thing, in my mind, and for a lot of other people, and indeed, based on scientific evidence it is.

fatmammycat

muddypaws wrote: »

You see that's the thing, in my mind, and for a lot of other people, and indeed, based on scientific evidence it is.

Perhaps so, but there's plenty of evidence that corrections have their place in dog training, then you reinforce the positive behaviour. It's easy enough to train any dog to do what you want, it's training them OUT of doing things that causes confusion. BAT and LAT are tremendous forms of training for many dogs, but -again- I don't discount other methods either. I think it was Tyler Muto who recently wrote a piece that some purely positive trainers would rather see dogs put to sleep than 'suffer' some adverse training. It's that kind of nonsense that completely undermines +p training.
Most people here have never used a prong collar and never will, so have almost no experience of them or concept of how useful they are. As I said, I was dead against them too for the longest time, until I read/spoke and most importantly, listened to people who had WAY more experience with dogs than I will ever have. I don't use one myself as I have no need for one, but it gets really bloody tedious when every single time they're mentioned people immediately go with 'Oh my god, how inhumane' and the conversation is shut down.

Mark Tapley

OP if you use a harness on your own dog maybe you could start a conversation about how great they are. I have a spare harness I think I would offer it to them to see how well they work.
I have never seen anyone use a prong collar and had a look at google images . They look like medieval instruments of torture.

snoman

"Strange thing though, as soon as the dog saw mine, he started slobbering REALLY heavily, instantly. I've never seen anything like it. Must be some sort of alternative reaction? I don't know."

My mastiff does this in anticipation of food. Many's the day I've almost skated across the kitchen with her food bowl in my hand!! Also in the park there's a lady who doles out treats.... Drip, drip drool..

Rochelle

I had to google prong collar as I never heard of them...wow...it's exactly what I'm looking for, my lad has the arm pulled off me when I take him walking.

Just ordered one there now, thanks OP.

peasant

fatmammycat wrote: »

I Dogs are not idiots, they understand boundaries and can operate perfectly happily within them once they know what that boundary is.

Dogs also know perfectly well when they are and aren't wearing a prong collar ...which makes the thing either useless or a permanent installation on the poor dog's neck.

muddypaws

fatmammycat wrote: »

Perhaps so, but there's plenty of evidence that corrections have their place in dog training, then you reinforce the positive behaviour. It's easy enough to train any dog to do what you want, it's training them OUT of doing things that causes confusion. BAT and LAT are tremendous forms of training for many dogs, but -again- I don't discount other methods either. I think it was Tyler Muto who recently wrote a piece that some purely positive trainers would rather see dogs put to sleep than 'suffer' some adverse training. It's that kind of nonsense that completely undermines +p training.
Most people here have never used a prong collar and never will, so have almost no experience of them or concept of how useful they are. As I said, I was dead against them too for the longest time, until I read/spoke and most importantly, listened to people who had WAY more experience with dogs than I will ever have. I don't use one myself as I have no need for one, but it gets really bloody tedious when every single time they're mentioned people immediately go with 'Oh my god, how inhumane' and the conversation is shut down.

I'm always open to debate, so could you please give me some links to the evidence, either on here, or by pm.

I have never used a prong collar, and never will, because I do understand how they work, and personally, I refuse to get a dog to do something I want by causing them pain, or, as proponents would prefer 'discomfort'. I have plenty of experience with dogs, including rehabilitating dogs that were due to be pts for aggression etc. I don't, and won't use aversive tools. Experience doesn't always equate to education and understanding. I talk to a lot of professional dog handlers, here and abroad, and so many services, such as police etc are moving away from aversive training and instead are using positive reinforcement.

I had never heard of Tyler Muto, so googled him. Wow, I certainly won't be taking any advice or opinions he gives as something worth listening to. Poor, stressed out dog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnoPXgWG0U

andreac

Rochelle wrote: »

I had to google prong collar as I never heard of them...wow...it's exactly what I'm looking for, my lad has the arm pulled off me when I take him walking.

Just ordered one there now, thanks OP.

Have you tried a more humane type of collar, like Dogmatic? Have you done any training with your dog at all to teach him not to pull?

Im guessing not, ah sure throw a prong collar on him and hurt him, he def wont pull then...:rolleyes:

ShaShaBear

andreac wrote: »

Have you tried a more humane type of collar, like Dogmatic? Have you done any training with your dog at all to teach him not to pull?

Im guessing not, ah sure throw a prong collar on him and hurt him, he def wont pull then...:rolleyes:

And just in case you couldn't detect the well-earned sarcasm, your dog will still pull with a prong collar on
You have to teach the dog what you want it to do, just because it hurts when he pulls doesn't mean he will stop, it just means he is likely to associate pain with whatever he is pulling to get at, which will probably teach him to pull harder to teach whatever that is a lesson for hurting him on his walk :rolleyes:

Good job making your dog worse!

fatmammycat

muddypaws wrote: »

I'm always open to debate, so could you please give me some links to the evidence, either on here, or by pm.

I have never used a prong collar, and never will, because I do understand how they work, and personally, I refuse to get a dog to do something I want by causing them pain, or, as proponents would prefer 'discomfort'. I have plenty of experience with dogs, including rehabilitating dogs that were due to be pts for aggression etc. I don't, and won't use aversive tools. Experience doesn't always equate to education and understanding. I talk to a lot of professional dog handlers, here and abroad, and so many services, such as police etc are moving away from aversive training and instead are using positive reinforcement.

I had never heard of Tyler Muto, so googled him. Wow, I certainly won't be taking any advice or opinions he gives as something worth listening to. Poor, stressed out dog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnoPXgWG0U

As I said, no one is TELLING you what way to train your dog. Train as you see fit, but be aware that other people train differently and it doesn't make them wrong. As for sneering at Muto, oh well, he's not for everyone, but I like his balanced approach and he has helped a lot of dogs who were heading for death's door.

DBB

fatmammycat wrote: »

I think it was Tyler Muto who recently wrote a piece that some purely positive trainers would rather see dogs put to sleep than 'suffer' some adverse training. It's that kind of nonsense that completely undermines +p training.

And it's that kind of nonsense assumption that many, many "traditional" trainers, and people like Muto who train dogs using prong collars and e-collars, who base their approach to training on supposition and hunches, spout to try to discredit "positive" trainers... There is no such thing as an entirely positive trainer. The difference is that "positive" trainers put great consideration and emphasis into the level of aversiveness that correction of unwanted behaviour has, and use forms of corrections that are deemed to be physically and psychologically non-harmful by human and animal behavioural scientists.
Muto bases his suppositions about dog training on the horsey equivalent used by the Parellis, which itself has been under fire by horse behavioural specialists due to ethical concerns for some years now... I know I've watched vids of the Parellis correcting unwanted equine behaviours which left me feeling as chilled and disbelieving as any episode of the Dog Whisperer.
I find the link you provide, presumably in support of your assertions about prong collars, almost amusing... The number of warnings, terms and conditions attached to using them reminds me of a Cesar Milan episode!

Mark Tapley

Rochelle wrote: »

I had to google prong collar as I never heard of them...wow...it's exactly what I'm looking for, my lad has the arm pulled off me when I take him walking.

Just ordered one there now, thanks OP.

I see from your posts you are trying to wind people up. Have you nothing better to do.

fatmammycat

DBB wrote: »

And it's that kind of nonsense assumption that many, many "traditional" trainers, and people like Muto who train dogs using prong collars and e-collars, who base their approach to training on supposition and hunches, spout to try to discredit "positive" trainers... There is no such thing as an entirely positive trainer. The difference is that "positive" trainers put great consideration and emphasis into the level of aversiveness that correction of unwanted behaviour has, and use forms of corrections that are deemed to be physically and psychologically non-harmful by human and animal behavioural scientists.
Muto bases his suppositions about dog training on the horsey equivalent used by the Parellis, which itself has been under fire by horse behavioural specialists due to ethical concerns for some years now... I know I've watched vids of the Parellis correcting unwanted equine behaviours which left me feeling as chilled and disbelieving as any episode of the Dog Whisperer.
I find the link you provide, presumably in support of your assertions about prong collars, almost amusing... The number of warnings, terms and conditions attached to using them reminds me of a Cesar Milan episode!

I don't base all my thinking on Tyler Muto, but on a number of trainers. And, as I've said from the start, from reading, listening and talking to people more experienced than I am I have formed my own conclusion. I respect the work positive trainers do, always have always will, use it myself, but I also fully understand that there is no one size fits all approach to dog training.
Anyway, I'm going in circles here. Out.

muddypaws

fatmammycat wrote: »

As I said, no one is TELLING you what way to train your dog. Train as you see fit, but be aware that other people train differently and it doesn't make them wrong. As for sneering at Muto, oh well, he's not for everyone, but I like his balanced approach and he has helped a lot of dogs who were heading for death's door.

So have I and other trainers, without having to resort to those aversive methods. We'll have to agree to disagree about what a balanced approach is.

Sorry that you think I was sneering, I thought that you wanted a discussion, you said earlier that people who are against aversive tools won't discuss. Maybe watch the link I posted, and then we have a chat about how stressed that dog is, and whether that really is the best way to train him/her? To me, stressing a dog out like while training is wrong, just as tying someone's arm behind their back to force them to use their right hand, because they are naturally left handed is wrong. Society has moved on from those kind of aversive methods with humans, I would like us to move away with animals as well.

andreac

Started watching that link muddypaws but had to turn it off, poor dog :-(

snoman

DBB wrote: »

There is no such thing as an entirely positive trainer. The difference is that "positive" trainers put great consideration and emphasis into the level of aversiveness that correction of unwanted behaviour has, and use forms of corrections that are deemed to be physically and psychologically non-harmful by human and animal behavioural scientists.

So how do positive trainers assess the level of aversiveness required, and what type of methods would they use?

DBB

fatmammycat wrote: »

I respect the work positive trainers do, always have always will, use it myself, but I also fully understand that there is no one size fits all approach to dog training.

And again, this common misconception that positive trainers have a "one size fits all" approach. Simply not true. All good "positive" trainers have a lot of alternatives in their stash of techniques, and are trained to evaluate and critique ALL forms of training, choosing preferred options based on having been trained in finding the balance between learning theory, and ethical dog handling.
"Positive" trainers are not robots, you'll rarely find two who'll use precisely the same techniques. But the one thing that they all embrace, is to do no harm.
Using unnecessary aversion, just as Muto is doing in that video, is unacceptable.
What he, an untrained, hunch-based trainer calls the dog "getting his own way", is actually pretty much the complete opposite. It's called Learned Helplessness. Look it up... Not nice. And that's why hunch trainers like him who use aversive gear are so dangerous... They misdiagnose problems, which means that they have to force their "cure" on the dog.

snoman

DBB wrote: »

And again, this common misconception that positive trainers have a "one size fits all" approach. Simply not true. All good "positive" trainers have a lot of alternatives in their stash of techniques, and are trained to evaluate and critique ALL forms of training, choosing preferred options based on having been trained in finding the balance between learning theory, and ethical dog handling.
"Positive" trainers are not robots, you'll rarely find two who'll use precisely the same techniques. But the one thing that they all embrace, is to do no harm.
Using unnecessary aversion, just as Muto is doing in that video, is unacceptable.
What he, an untrained, hunch-based trainer calls the dog "getting his own way", is actually pretty much the complete opposite. It's called Learned Helplessness. Look it up... Not nice. And that's why hunch trainers like him who use aversive gear are so dangerous... They misdiagnose problems, which means that they have to force their "cure" on the dog.

So is it that 'positive' trainers may use aversiveness techniques, but that because they have been trained they would understand the best method and type to use in each situation, and that these would be specific to each trainer?

Raminahobbin

andreac wrote: »

Started watching that link muddypaws but had to turn it off, poor dog :-(

Me too

The poor thing looks so stressed and confused

DBB

snoman wrote: »

So how do positive trainers assess the level of aversiveness required, and what type of methods would they use?

The first thing a "positive" trainer won't use is physical pain or discomfort. They will assess each dog whilst they're working with them to appraise the level of psychological stress the dog may be feeling, and keep it below an acceptable level by taking the dog away from the stressor(s), and finding another way to expose the dog to stressful things in a slower, more gradual, less stressful way.
Whilst a small amount of stress can promote learning, too much stress is the direct enemy of learning, and so trying to continue to teach an over-stressed dog is (a) ineffective, and (b) cruel. Each dog has different levels of tolerance, just like we do, which is why good trainers will adapt to suit each dog.
How do we know a dog is becoming too stressed? There's a suite of signs, many of which are nicely illustrated in the video the muddypaws linked to, such as heavy panting, bulging eyes, glancing repeatedly at the trainer, learned helplessness... But to a positive trainer, these show that the dog has gone considerably further into the stress zone than a positive trainer should allow.
For me, it's when the dog starts to lose concentration, and can't be readily lured back to concentrate on his training using something he loves, like food, or a toy, because he's concentrating too hard on his more immediate problem... Proximity to the stressor. Once the dog has got to this stage, which compared to the above is mild, the learning we want him to do is grinding to a halt, and training needs to stop until a more acceptable alternative is found.
So, when dealing with serious emotional problems, a program of slowly desensitising the dog to the stressor(s) is used (called systematic desensitisation), alongside use of positive reinforcement for nice, calm behaviours (called counter-conditioning and response substitution). No punishment should be used for dogs with serious emotional issues as they've enough to be stressed about as it is, it's a long slog to do it humanely, but is without doubt the most effective.
For unwanted behaviours such as attention-seeking stuff, or chewing, mouthing, barking and a whole range of other problems that are not rooted in serious emotional imbalance, then withholding treasured resources is great (particularly for attention-seeking behaviours), and for more serious breaches, calmly executed Time-Outs are excellent.
Of course, all need to be used with consistency and patience, all too often people try these things for a few days, then soften their resolve and allow bad habits to creep back in.
So, to summarise!
For emotional, behavioural problems, you're usually looking at Systematic Desensitisation, Counter Conditioning and Response Substitution.
For more every day breaches of boundaries and naughtiness, it's controlling the reward until desired behaviour happens, and Time-Outs.
Oftentimes, depending on the severity or motivation behind the behaviour, the trainer can use a combination of all of these to address an unwanted behaviour.
These are listed by human (and animal) behavioural scientists as being acceptably humane methods to effectively correct unwanted behaviours.
I hope that answers your question!

DBB

snoman wrote: »

So is it that 'positive' trainers may use aversiveness techniques, but that because they have been trained they would understand the best method and type to use in each situation, and that these would be specific to each trainer?

As per my post above, they will use mild aversion, because it's pretty much impossible to stop a dog continuing with an unwanted behaviour without giving him some sense of "damn... I shouldn't have tried that".
The world isn't always a perfectly positive place, for animals to learn not to do something, they've got to learn that doing it brings no reward, or a mildly aversive consequence. As Prof Peter Neville of COAPE says, "into each life, a little sh1t must fall" :-)
The critical thing is that the level of aversion used does not stress the dog beyond his capacity to learn quickly. This is vital, and it is the difference between positive trainers and traditional trainers.
As a general rule, the aversion used by positive trainers is to temporarily deprive the dog of something he wants. However, if any technique used in doing so was to cause the dog stress, it should be stopped and a less stressful alternative found for that dog. Any aversion must, must, must be supported by reinforcement when the dog gets it right... It's vital. Traditional trainers tend to use this as a crutch to make using serious aversives okay and call themselves "positive trainers", but I've said it here before... A real "positive" trainer is differentiated from others by the way they deal with unwanted behaviours.
As I said above, the acceptable, ethical techniques to be used as aversives are well-documented, and positive trainers shouldn't stray from them.

Irishchick

andreac wrote: »

Started watching that link muddypaws but had to turn it off, poor dog :-(

Same. It's clear to see that he is stressed / afraid.

sillysmiles

OK I got up to 2 mins 50 in that video. As soon as the dog moved towards him, why didn't he encourage/reward?

Surely, what he was trying to do he could have done without a prong collar?

Whispered

I honestly think that when people try to disparage force free trainers with "oh well I'm not a one size fits all trainer" it shows a gap in their understanding of how these trainers work. I think the best trainers are always changing their methods and learning new ways of doing things because no two scenarios are exactly the same.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that an aversive can work, but at what cost to the dog (and potentially other people/pets) if things go badly wrong?

Ashbx

I think the OP should stay out of it to be honest. If they are genuinely concerned, call the DSPCA and let them deal with it. I personally would never use a prong collar however, I would NEVER judge someone who does! OP, you don't know what this dog is like! My dog (who is a border terrier) is one of the worst pullers I have come across. I have tried haltis, harnesses, different collars, training techniques, calming the dog before I leave, backpacks...the list is endless but not once have I had a walk with her where she doesn't pull!!

If prong collars were cruel, pet shops wouldn't sell them....end of story! If used correctly, these collars can be very useful and work very effectively! If someone approached me to tell me not to use a certain collar or harness or whatever the case may be, I would thank them for their opinion (just to be nice) but also ignore it. If you saw a woman who had a young daughter wearing extremely high heels for example, would you go to the mother and tell her that he daughter shouldn't be wearing those heels?....I think not. I do completely understand where you are coming from but I also think you don't know the full story about this dog walker and I think you should keep your opinion to yourself in this instance.

DBB

Ashbx wrote: »

If prong collars were cruel, pet shops wouldn't sell them....end of story! If used correctly, these collars can be very useful and work very effectively!

Hmmm, with all due respect ashbx, your assumption that pet shops wouldn't sell prong collars if they were cruel is very naive.
Pet shops sell choke chains.
Pet shops sell electric shock collars.
Both pieces of gear have been condemned by most of the world's animal welfare groups and dog behavioural groups.
The evidence against them is pretty overwhelming, so much so that e-collars are banned in some countries.
I think it's more relevant to go with what the findings of science and research tell us about the actual level of cruelty, rather than rely on (often) poorly trained shop staff who are there to take your money from you.

Some pet shops sell puppies. This is a practise condemned by all animal welfare groups and behavioural groups worldwide.

Pet shops sell chew treats which dogs have died after eating because they're just not safe. Pet shops sell high-sugar, high-fat dog treats that are bad for dogs' health.

Pet shops sell goldfish in tiny plastic bowls. You'll not find an expert fish keeper who will tell you that this is anything other than cruel.

Many pet shops are indiscriminate about the smallies they sell: guinea pigs, rabbits, hamsters etc, they're sold to whoever pays the money, and we see regular reports here of pregnant animals being sold to unwary buyers, rabbits being sold as guinea pig companions, sociable animals being sold in solitude....the list goes on.

Pet shops sell reptiles to people who have no clue how to look after them.

Pet shops sell birds and reptiles that will probably outlive the purchaser, and in the case of some birds, require a huge commitment to keep them psychologically healthy... But again, you pay your money, you get your bird, no questions asked.

There are some exceptions, but by and large most pet shops are there to make money. What products they sell to achieve a profit is incidental.
To make assumptions like this causes an awful lot of problems across life in many different ways... I would be very careful about making any assumptions of high ethical standards from any business that is driven by profit.

And again the "when used correctly, prong collars work" argument. Why on earth would anyone want to hurt their dog unnecessarily? To simply say "they work", and conveniently ignore the fact that they can't work without causing pain, is absolutely no justification to use them, in this day and age.

tk123

Ashbx wrote: »

If prong collars were cruel, pet shops wouldn't sell them....end of story! .

What pet shop in Ireland have you seen them for sale in?

Ashbx

DBB wrote: »

Hmmm, with all due respect ashbx, your assumption that pet shops wouldn't sell prong collars if they were cruel is very naive.
Pet shops sell choke chains.
Pet shops sell electric shock collars.
Both pieces of gear have been condemned by most of the world's animal welfare groups and dog behavioural groups.
The evidence against them is pretty overwhelming, so much so that e-collars are banned in some countries.
I think it's more relevant to go with what the findings of science and research tell us about the actual level of cruelty, rather than rely on (often) poorly trained shop staff who are there to take your money from you.

Some pet shops sell puppies. This is a practise condemned by all animal welfare groups and behavioural groups worldwide.

Pet shops sell chew treats which dogs have died after eating because they're just not safe. Pet shops sell high-sugar, high-fat dog treats that are bad for dogs' health.

Pet shops sell goldfish in tiny plastic bowls. You'll not find an expert fish keeper who will tell you that this is anything other than cruel.

Many pet shops are indiscriminate about the smallies they sell: guinea pigs, rabbits, hamsters etc, they're sold to whoever pays the money, and we see regular reports here of pregnant animals being sold to unwary buyers, rabbits being sold as guinea pig companions, sociable animals being sold in solitude....the list goes on.

Pet shops sell reptiles to people who have no clue how to look after them.

Pet shops sell birds and reptiles that will probably outlive the purchaser, and in the case of some birds, require a huge commitment to keep them psychologically healthy... But again, you pay your money, you get your bird, no questions asked.

There are some exceptions, but by and large most pet shops are there to make money. What products they sell to achieve a profit is incidental.
To make assumptions like this causes an awful lot of problems across life in many different ways... I would be very careful about making any assumptions of high ethical standards from any business that is driven by profit.

And again the "when used correctly, prong collars work" argument. Why on earth would anyone want to hurt their dog unnecessarily? To simply say "they work", and conveniently ignore the fact that they can't work without causing pain, is absolutely no justification to use them, in this day and age.

Ha, ok point taken! As it happens, I did work in a small family owned petshop for 4 years so I do know a thing or two about pet shops and how they are run. I, for the reasons you mentioned above, do not shop in the likes of Maxi Zoo or Petstop. I shop in small local pet shops. When I worked in the petshop (where I still shop by the way), we were always told to ask the potential customer questions about the animal they were buying. So I think you are now being the naïve one....not all petshops are the same. But this is besides the point!

My "assumptions" do not come from "any business that is driven by profit". For years, I witnessed a very close friend using a prong collar....and still does! I don't agree with it and I would never use one on any of my dogs but it works whether you agree with the method or not! And they have their valid reasons why they use them!

I am not hear to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of prong collars. That's a whole other thread! The OP asked should they say something. And personally, I don't think she should because the OP does not know this owners situation and its only fair if she keeps her opinions to herself.

Ashbx

tk123 wrote: »

What pet shop in Ireland have you seen them for sale in?

I dont know a particular shop because I have no intention of buying one so never looked into it but one small search on google and its pretty apparent you can get them pretty damn easy!!

jimf

I have springers who are feckers for pulling if allowed to develop the habit
I find a very simple solution is to get somebody to walk in front of them and take their ground thus forcing them to walk beside me it requires no intervention from me just a lead long enough to allow a little slack

its probably one of the easiest bad habits to allow a dog develop