Grangegorman records

herself_there

Has anyone had any luck recently with accessing or getting any information from patient records from Grangegorman? I have tried via the grangegorman.ie email on two occasions but no word back. From older posts I see that it was the priest in St Brendan's who held the records but they were then passed on to the volunteers who run the Grangegorman museum. I also read somewhere that they had since been passed on to the national archives and are in the process of being organised and archived properly.

Can anyone shed any light on this and if you know the best person to contact? I have a relative who was admitted in the 40's and would love to know more.

pinkypinky

I am in the same boat - never got anywhere.

herself_there

pinkypinky wrote: »

I am in the same boat - never got anywhere.

Ugh. That's a shame. I have emailed the National Archives and asked if they have the records, so I'll let you know if I get anywhere.

cormick

herself_there wrote: »

Ugh. That's a shame. I have emailed the National Archives and asked if they have the records, so I'll let you know if I get anywhere.

Did you have any luck with your email to The National Archives. I am trying to find out how to access these records too. As I believe my grandmother died there, after giving birth to my aunt there and I would love to find out more.

TOMP

Some old hospital records, including Grangegorman, are held by the National Archives. However to get any info on a relative you have to go through the HSE, and you have to prove your connection to the relative via BMD certs. So the National Archives should give you a HSE contact, and thereafter you are dealing with HSE. At least thats the way it worked for me last year.

cormick

Thank you very much for this information. It is a great help. I'll contact the National Archives this week and hopefully I'll start the ball rolling.

pinkypinky

That's great to hear, TOMP.

I'll try that tactic too. I sent them all my details (great-grandmother died there) before the NAI took over the records but I never heard a dickybird from them.

cormick

pinkypinky wrote: »

That's great to hear, TOMP.

I'll try that tactic too. I sent them all my details (great-grandmother died there) before the NAI took over the records but I never heard a dickybird from them.

I'll let you know how I get on, would you do the same please.

tabbey

The NAI can only allow access to St Brendan's records, when certain administrators grant approval. Two years ago, I wrote to the person named by the NAI, I received a reply from a second person, whom I assumed to be a secretary, advising me to send documentary evidence of relationship to her colleague, in Connolly Norman House (formerly St Dymphna's). This I did, and waited, and waited. I later contacted the second person, who replied with exactly the same instructions, which I had complied with previously. Subsequently this person said they had not received my family tree, certs etc. This claim was untrue, as I had delivered the letter personally, and the person at the reception desk, confirmed it was the right office, and promised to hand it to the relevant officer named on the envelope.
I hope others have better luck, but personally I have better things to do with my time, life is short enough, and I have lots of genealogical searching yet, on many branches of my tree.

pinkypinky

That's very frustrating, Tabbey.

When did Grangegorman become St Brendan's? What's the difference? ETA: St Brendan's is the official name after it changed from Richmond Lunatic Asylum, but presumably always just known by the suburb's name.

Some details here:
http://ggda.ie/grangegorman/a-brief-history

https://sites.google.com/site/iimhlinireland2010/iimhl-ireland/mental-health-in-ireland-1/history-of-mental-health-services-in-ireland/mental-health-museum-collection

cormick

tabbey wrote: »

The NAI can only allow access to St Brendan's records, when certain administrators grant approval. Two years ago, I wrote to the person named by the NAI, I received a reply from a second person, whom I assumed to be a secretary, advising me to send documentary evidence of relationship to her colleague, in Connolly Norman House (formerly St Dymphna's). This I did, and waited, and waited. I later contacted the second person, who replied with exactly the same instructions, which I had complied with previously. Subsequently this person said they had not received my family tree, certs etc. This claim was untrue, as I had delivered the letter personally, and the person at the reception desk, confirmed it was the right office, and promised to hand it to the relevant officer named on the envelope.
I hope others have better luck, but personally I have better things to do with my time, life is short enough, and I have lots of genealogical searching yet, on many branches of my tree.

That is very disappointing. I really need to see my grandmother's information. I hope it will give me information that has been lost or hidden by my mothers family. My mother told me that when she was about 10 years old in 1921, she and my granny who was pregnant were travelling in a pony and trap along Richmond Road when her mother slumped over, my mother thought she had a brain seizure. She was taken to Grangegorman, where my aunt was born. However my granny died shortly after on Christmas Eve. She left 7 children, her husband was heartbroken and couldn't cope and the family was broken up. My mother was sent down the country with her younger brother and her new baby sister to live with her mother's mother. Mam never celebrated Christmas again till she met my father in her twenties. My mother was always sad about the circumstance of her mother's death. My granny's death cert is vague. She was the only girl and very close to her mother, after that her life was very hard. My aunt told me she had never seen a photograph of her mother. I guess everything was scattered when the family home was broken up. I'd like to find out as much as I can just as a mark of respect to my mother

pinkypinky

I think it's worth trying to find out.

I've mailed off to the NAI for the contact details in the HSE and will send my direct connection to my great-grandmother. Will report back.

There's a case for arguing that medical records could have implications for future generations.

cormick

pinkypinky wrote: »

I think it's worth trying to find out.

I've mailed off to the NAI for the contact details in the HSE and will send my direct connection to my great-grandmother. Will report back.

There's a case for arguing that medical records could have implications for future generations.

Thank you so much, that would be great. Cormick

herself_there

Only getting to read these replies now.

Unfortunately I didn't get anywhere either. I've tried contacting former employees in the hope of being pointed in the right direction, but no joy. My relative was my great grand aunt. She never had children but I'm not sure if I'm a close enough relative to be allowed access to her records. If anyone does end up dealing with a person in the national archives, who is actually helping them then please PM me their details.

It shouldn't be be this difficult (in fact obstructive!) to legitimately access family records. Especially in the case of your grandmother. That's shocking.

rusheens

This should help, this is the email reply I received in July from the National Archives re: Richmond Asylum (Grangegorman) records. Good luck!

"I refer to your email below and am writing to inform you that while the records of St Brendan’s Hospital, Grangegorman are in the custody of the National Archives, access is granted through Dublin North Mental Health Services. I am forwarding contact details for your information.

Please contact:

Antoinette Kelly
MHA Administrator
Dublin North City Mental Health Services
The Phoenix Care Centre
Grangegorman
North Circular Road
Dublin 7"

pinkypinky

I was given a different name: Carmel Kitching.

I contacted her 2 weeks ago by email and have no response whatsoever.

pinkypinky

Further update: I had a call this morning, not from Carmel Kitching, asking for some more details to aid them in searching for the records...husband and all children's names, which I provided. She said she would send a letter acknowledging receipt of my request today and then it would take approximately 4 weeks to conduct a search of the records, and they would report back.

pinkypinky

Further update: spoke to case officer this morning. They sent by registered post yesterday 36 pages of my great-grandmother's file!
I'm ridiculously excited.

shanew

I was able to access records for my gtgt-grand mother a good while ago while they were still at St. Brendan's / Granegorman - about a paragraph of information... Envious about your 36 pages ... some of the more recent records have photos

pinkypinky

I've been to the sorting office and collected the file.
Bowled over!
There is a photograph of her, description, etc.
Lots of medical stuff.
Letters from her children, etc.

One of the best things: list of people who were allowed visit, all identified by family relationship. This has yielded the married name of 3 sisters, so I'm looking at adding about 12 new people to the family tree once I confirm some marriage certs.

herself_there

pinkypinky wrote: »

I've been to the sorting office and collected the file.
Bowled over!
There is a photograph of her, description, etc.
Lots of medical stuff.
Letters from her children, etc.

One of the best things: list of people who were allowed visit, all identified by family relationship. This has yielded the married name of 3 sisters, so I'm looking at adding about 12 new people to the family tree once I confirm some marriage certs.

Wow!! Congratulations on getting the file. That's a hell of a collection! Hopefully it answers some of the questions you had.

Makes me want to start the process of trying to get my relatives file now.

Thanks for the update.

Cailleachdubh

Great to here is is finally a bit of movement on these records (albeit slow). I have also tried to find out about access in the last year, after I found out my great-grandfather died there. Like most of you, I've had no luck so far. I sent off another few emails yesterdaym, then found this thread afterwards.

I'm studing psychiatry at the moment and have a few assignments to do. I'd love to incorporate what I find out into one of them, but pressure's on - I finish psych placement in 5 weeks. Very jealous of the 36 page report!!

When should I expect a reply from the NAI? I didn't email a specific person, just the mail@... address.

pinkypinky

Mine was 5 weeks from sending them the documentation. If you just mailed the main address, there might be a time lag in them getting to reply.

Cailleachdubh

15 weeks from my original email to Carmel Kitching and 7 weeks since I emailed all the records and still no reply regarding my request for information on the records!!

pinkypinky

I followed up around the same timeframe and they had had a problem with their franking machine (and were apparently incapable of buying stamps) but I got it the following day. Did you get an official acknowledgement by post?

Cailleachdubh

No, I didn't get any reply of any kind PinkyPinky, other than someone in the National Archives saying I should get on to Carmel K. But haven't heard a thing from her yet. Time for a follow-up email alright, but I'm not confident I'll get a reply from them this time either! I'm just very impatient

-Leelo-

Sorry to drag an old thread up but I am currently compiling the info required by the HSE to get my great great grandfathers Richmond Asylum records, just wondering do they actually need all the info they ask for, and if I provide most of it but not all, will they still allow me access to them?

The following is what I can't provide
An exact date of birth, just an approximate year of birth
How many siblings and their names
Exact date of admission
Parents names

I'm hoping when I get a copy of his marriage certificate that it will give me some more info or leads to work off, but don't know how I'd be expected to know an exact date of admission??

pinkypinky

I think give them everything you have, including documented proof of your connection and approximate dates.
They will realise that part of the reason to access these records are to find out information. Since it's a gg grandfather, data protection won't apply: he's definitely dead.

Cailleachdubh

Is there anyone else worth contacting apart from Carmel Kitching? I still haven't received an answer from them 5 months later, after sending all the records I have. Very disappointed as we are having a family reunion soon and these records would be a great source of conversation for the day.

pinkypinky

Well, my experience worked out well, so I don't know what else to suggest. If you never got an initial confirmation letter, then I'd try again from the starting point with all the info. As I said above, mine took about 6 weeks total.

shar01

Has anyone had any luck getting records from Grangegorman where they can't prove a connection to the person who was there?

The couple who adopted my grandmother also adopted another girl. I have her death cert and memorial card but nothing to show how she's connected to my grandmother (although she lived with my grandmother for a time so address might help).

Thanks,

S.

-Leelo-

Cailleachdubh wrote: »

Is there anyone else worth contacting apart from Carmel Kitching? I still haven't received an answer from them 5 months later, after sending all the records I have. Very disappointed as we are having a family reunion soon and these records would be a great source of conversation for the day.

I received an email from a different lady after initially emailing Carmel Kitching, she told me to send all the documents to her once I had compiled them, you could try email her to follow up? I can pm you her name and email address if you like?

Cailleachdubh

That'd be fantastic Leelo, thank you!

Cailleachdubh

Incidentally, has anyone discovered that their ancestors who died in Grangegorman were buried in its cemetery? Any way of accessing those burial records? I know, I know - one thing at a time!

perisna

Hello herself_there, I note you've mentioned contacting former staff members of the hospital. I am currently researching Grangegorman/St. Brendan's and was wondering if you could point me in the right direction in terms of finding this info or, if you would be aware of any you have contacted who might be comfortable with speaking to me; I'm interested in knowing the staff's general experiences working in the hospital

tabbey

Cailleachdubh wrote: »

Incidentally, has anyone discovered that their ancestors who died in Grangegorman were buried in its cemetery? Any way of accessing those burial records? I know, I know - one thing at a time!

Grangegorman cemetery is a military cemetery, it has nothing to do with the hospital.

The only connection is that they are both in the same large townland.

riverina

The woman I am researching who died at Grangegorman was buried at Glasnevin Cemetery - perhaps check there, they have great records accessible online.

herself_there

Hi,

I'm afraid I didn't get anywhere with my research into grangegorman as I just dont have the time at the moment to gather all the records I need and follow up on emails. I'll hopefully have more time for this early next year.
As well as having a relative who was a patient in grangegorman, my great grandmother also trained there. I believe she was one of the first batch of nurses trained in psychiatric nursing in the country (around 1915 I think). So if you ever do get any further with staff records, I'd love to hear about it!

perisna wrote: »

Hello herself_there, I note you've mentioned contacting former staff members of the hospital. I am currently researching Grangegorman/St. Brendan's and was wondering if you could point me in the right direction in terms of finding this info or, if you would be aware of any you have contacted who might be comfortable with speaking to me; I'm interested in knowing the staff's general experiences working in the hospital

Whereisgerry?

Hi there,

I've contacted the hse about access to my great grandfather's file from Grangegorman. They have responded to me telling me that I need Next Of Kin consent. My great aunt and great uncle are still alive but I don't want to ask for their permission as they don't know I have these details and I don't want to annoy them. They obviously went through a lot when they were very young and I don't want to drag it all up.

Has anyone else been asked to provide next of kin details?

pinkypinky

No, next of kin is pretty well defined. If you don't want to ask them, then you need to wait for them to be dead, and then go to whoever is next.

Whereisgerry?

pinkypinky wrote: »

No, next of kin is pretty well defined. If you don't want to ask them, then you need to wait for them to be dead, and then go to whoever is next.

Thanks Pinky pinky! I was hoping you would reply. Are you the next of kin for your records? I think my mother (as a grandchild) would qualify as next of kin once my great aunt & uncle pass away. I think I might have a long wait on my hands as they are fighting fit, spritely 85 and 82 year olds!! I don't want to upset them by asking this info - I'm not sure if they even know as they were only toddlers when their father died.

pinkypinky

Actually, I wasn't the next of kin, as a great-grandchild of the person, I am the same connection as you. All 7 of her grandchildren were still alive at the time. I'd say it's the fact that there are children of your g-grandmother alive that is the problem.

Whereisgerry?

pinkypinky wrote: »

Actually, I wasn't the next of kin, as a great-grandchild of the person, I am the same connection as you. All 7 of her grandchildren were still alive at the time. I'd say it's the fact that there are children of your g-grandmother alive that is the problem.

Yeah, I guess that's probably it. Makes sense! I don't want to bother them with questions about their background as it's always been a closely guarded secret. I will find out more in years to come. Thanks for your replies!

Cailleachdubh

Whereisgerry? wrote: »

Hi there,

I've contacted the hse about access to my great grandfather's file from Grangegorman. They have responded to me telling me that I need Next Of Kin consent. My great aunt and great uncle are still alive but I don't want to ask for their permission as they don't know I have these details and I don't want to annoy them. They obviously went through a lot when they were very young and I don't want to drag it all up.

Has anyone else been asked to provide next of kin details?

Who did you contact in the HSE out of interest? I've been emailing CK snd AK for two and a half years with no response!! So annoyed and frustrated! Latest attempt was about a month ago. The least they could do is acknowledge my request! Any ideas what I should do next?

Whereisgerry?

Cailleachdubh wrote: »

Whereisgerry? wrote: »

Hi there,

I've contacted the hse about access to my great grandfather's file from Grangegorman. They have responded to me telling me that I need Next Of Kin consent. My great aunt and great uncle are still alive but I don't want to ask for their permission as they don't know I have these details and I don't want to annoy them. They obviously went through a lot when they were very young and I don't want to drag it all up.

Has anyone else been asked to provide next of kin details?

Who did you contact in the HSE out of interest? I've been emailing CK snd AK for two and a half years with no response!! So annoyed and frustrated! Latest attempt was about a month ago. The least they could do is acknowledge my request! Any ideas what I should do next?

Hi Cailleachdubh,
I will send you a name and email address later on this evening as I don't have access to my personal mail at work. If you don't hear from me just send me a PM and I will get the details for you. I initially contacted CK and my email was forwarded to a man named Sean something. I got a reply within a day or two from him.
Just as an FYI... If you aren't a direct next of kin then forget it. I was looking for details on my great grandfather but 2 of his children are still alive so I didn't get any further with my research.
Gerry

Whereisgerry?

PM Sent. If anyone else needs this info please let me know.

shar01

Whereisgerry? wrote: »

PM Sent. If anyone else needs this info please let me know.

Hiya,

I'd be grateful for the info. Although I'm probably snookered in that the person I'm trying to get info on was "adopted" by the same folks who adopted by grandmother so no next of kin...

Thanks in advance.

S.

Whereisgerry?

shar01 wrote: »

Whereisgerry? wrote: »

PM Sent. If anyone else needs this info please let me know.

Hiya,

I'd be grateful for the info. Although I'm probably snookered in that the person I'm trying to get info on was "adopted" by the same folks who adopted by grandmother so no next of kin...

Thanks in advance.

S.

PM Sent!

Cailleachdubh

Cailleachdubh wrote: »

Who did you contact in the HSE out of interest? I've been emailing CK snd AK for two and a half years with no response!! So annoyed and frustrated! Latest attempt was about a month ago. The least they could do is acknowledge my request! Any ideas what I should do next?

As an update to this, I am hopeful that Some progress is being made on this at last (thanks to Whereisgerry and some persistent emailing!!). It appears my previous emails & attachments may have been blocked by the HSE server. So after resubmitting my documents, request has been made to the National Archives on my behalf, under the freedom of information Act. As I understand it, this is still not a guarantee that I will be allowed access to the documents, once/if found. However, I'm really excited that I could have news ag last in the next month or so!

Whereisgerry?

Hi Cailleachdubh,

What is your relationship to the person you are requesting info on? Have you been asked about your status as next of kin? I recently got info on my great grandfather from the dept of justice through an FOI request and no one asked me to prove I was related. Maybe mental health records are different though (

My great grandfather seems to have been badly injured during his time in Grangegorman - I know he was physically fine when sent there so I would really like to know what happened him. Damn this next of kin business!!

pinkypinky

Health records are all the same. You should be asked to prove your direct connection. I had to provide b/m/d for myself, father, grandfather and his mother to get her records.

Irish military records also worked like this for a great-grandfather of mine. However, when I tried to get my grandfather's, they wanted to know if he had any living children and then insisted that one of them apply instead of me.